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Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: James Peterson] #160192
01/09/14 03:12 PM
01/09/14 03:12 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, thanks for answering my question.

Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: Mountain Man] #160208
01/10/14 03:58 AM
01/10/14 03:58 AM
dedication  Offline
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Sounds like James has accepted some of the preterist views.

Interestingly enough, I've had many people (usually on forums) tell me I shouldn't allow EGW to influence my understanding of the Bible (as James has also done here, several times now) -- however, everyone who tells me this usually has their OWN interpretation (which differs from EGW) that they want to promote. And the interesting part is that these people who say they simply "read the Bible as it reads" have interpretations that all differ from each other.

So a person with a preterist leaning says, if I just lay EGW aside and read the Bible "as it reads" I would see it his way.

A person believing in the pre-tribulation rapture says, if I just lay EGW aside and read the Bible "as it reads" I would see it his way.

Etc. ETc.

Each one maintaining that they are reading the Bible correctly and thus everyone else should see it their way. However, they all disagree with each other!

Yet each group has their scholars and books that basically support their particular interpretation. They generally read these books or listen to presentations that validate their chosen outline of understanding of prophecy.

And so -- I see in EGW's writings that best matches what I have found in scripture. It is this very issue that has convinced me that she was inspired.
Her writings ring true to scripture, and she pulls everything together beautifully so many times, that any doubt of her inspiration is removed,

Yes, read the Bible -- there is no substitute for it. It should be the foundation of our faith in Christ.




Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: dedication] #160209
01/10/14 05:37 AM
01/10/14 05:37 AM
dedication  Offline
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Quote:
You'd best be able to understand it if you think of Jesus Christ being crucified by the Romans and then, long after, the Christians being burnt for light by the Roman Caesar just before the Temple was destroyed in 70AD. Between the two incidents, the Christians were among the Greeks in the city-states and the gospel was growing among them away from the Jewish persecution


1. Living in city states is not "the wilderness"
Christians were actively travelling all over the known world preaching the gospel.

2. There was a lot of persecution of Christians between 31 A.D. and 70 A.D., from Jews who also lived in the Greek States; from Gentiles who didn't want their idol worship disturbed; and from Rome, which expelled them from Rome along with the Jews.

3. The leading faction that persecuted and demanded Christ's death were Jews, not Romans. Pilate yielded to the pressure of the Jews leaders.

The other understanding -- which fits much better:

1. The wilderness was literally a largely uninhabited place -- mainly the mountains and valleys of the Alps and the Pyrenees.

When Constantine placed himself as the guardian of the Christian Church and bequeathed upon Sylvester, the bishop of Rome, great honors, that a serious separation began to take place.
As the bishop of Rome continued to gain strength, the Christians who could not abide the corruptions entering the state approved Christian church, withdrew to the valleys sheltered in the rugged mountains.
They were called Waldenses from the Italian word for "valleys" and where they spread into France, they were called Vaudois, a French word meaning "inhabitants of the valleys".

Here they found protection from the wrath of Rome. Not only were the mountains protection, but also the presence of the Lombard kings, unconquered until about 800 AD assured religious tolerance there. Here they lived for hundreds of years (long before Waldo they were there).

It was in the years when the papacy was at its height -- that a ruthless campaign to purge out God's church took place.
Many times they were able to escape but by the 1400's the papacy was desperate to rid the world of her opponent.

Revelation 12 tells of these dreadful crusades against the church in the wilderness.

12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


It was the height of the papal oppression and cruelty, as that flood of soldiers and ruffians, urged on by promises of absolution and heaven, swept through the mountain valleys to purge out the hated church, but it's power was soon to be broken.

12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

1. The reformation was about to rise over Europe and break the hold the papal church had over the people.

2. A new land was discovered to which people would soon flee where Roman armies would not pursue them.

Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: dedication] #160264
01/12/14 05:51 AM
01/12/14 05:51 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
1. The wilderness was literally a largely uninhabited place -- mainly the mountains and valleys of the Alps and the Pyrenees.

I will respond to your full post later, but I think this is important enough to warrant a first response. The "wilderness" of the Revelation is NOT a "largely uninhibited place". It is a prophetic term used to describe a heathen land, meaning the vast majority of people either don't know God or treat his word lightly: a spiritually barren place. The term is used again in Rev. 17 in this manner:

"3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness, and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. ...
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues."

SECONDLY:

I will allow Luke (Acts 11) to speak to you directly concerning the early Christian persecution at the hand of the Jews and the evangelization of the world, first - of the Greeks.

"19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. 20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus. 21 And the hand of the Lord was with them:and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord." This was the wilderness to which the woman fled as it is written in the Testimony of Jesus Christ, "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." (Rev. 12:14)

Those who do not read the Bible for themselves, but bury their heads in the books of another, will surely stumble and fall.

///

Last edited by James Peterson; 01/12/14 05:54 AM.
Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: dedication] #160340
01/14/14 05:23 PM
01/14/14 05:23 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The other understanding -- which fits much better:

...

When Constantine placed himself as the guardian of the Christian Church and bequeathed upon Sylvester, the bishop of Rome, great honors, that a serious separation began to take place.
As the bishop of Rome continued to gain strength, the Christians who could not abide the corruptions entering the state approved Christian church, withdrew to the valleys sheltered in the rugged mountains. They were called Waldenses from the Italian word for "valleys" and where they spread into France, they were called Vaudois, a French word meaning "inhabitants of the valleys".

Here they found protection from the wrath of Rome. Not only were the mountains protection, but also the presence of the Lombard kings, unconquered until about 800 AD assured religious tolerance there. Here they lived for hundreds of years (long before Waldo they were there).

It was in the years when the papacy was at its height -- that a ruthless campaign to purge out God's church took place.
Many times they were able to escape but by the 1400's the papacy was desperate to rid the world of her opponent.

Revelation 12 tells of these dreadful crusades against the church in the wilderness.

12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.


It was the height of the papal oppression and cruelty, as that flood of soldiers and ruffians, urged on by promises of absolution and heaven, swept through the mountain valleys to purge out the hated church, but it's power was soon to be broken.

12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

1. The reformation was about to rise over Europe and break the hold the papal church had over the people.

2. A new land was discovered to which people would soon flee where Roman armies would not pursue them.

You should disabuse yourself of the fantasy you just described.

For your information, Peter Waldo (who would start the Waldensian Movement) was about 1000 years after Constantine. Here, you can read about him and his movement here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians

Have a good day.

///

Last edited by James Peterson; 01/14/14 05:23 PM.
Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: James Peterson] #164186
04/10/14 03:34 AM
04/10/14 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson

For your information, Peter Waldo (who would start the Waldensian Movement) was about 1000 years after Constantine. Here, you can read about him and his movement here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians


///


That is what the Catholic church has taught.
But the question is, can we accept these historical refutations as truth, or is the picture that Protestant historians of old painted more trustworthy?

Now Peter Waldo did give the movement a "boost" as he was an energetic leader, yet he most certainly did not originate the "church in the wilderness."


Originally Posted By: History of the Waldenses by Wylie
They formed a part, as unquestionably they did, of the great evangelical Church of the North of Italy. This is the proof at once of their apostolicity and their independence. It attests their descent from apostolic men, if doctrine be the life of Churches. When their co-religionists on the plains entered within the pale of the Roman jurisdiction, they retired within the mountains, and, spurning alike the tyrannical yoke and the corrupt tenets of the Church of the Seven Hills, they preserved in its purity and simplicity the faith their fathers had handed down to them. Rome manifestly was the schismatic, she it was that had abandoned what was once the common faith of Christendom, leaving by that step to all who remained on the old ground the indisputably valid title of the True Church.

Behind this rampart of mountains, which Providence, foreseeing the approach of evil days, would almost seem to have reared on purpose, did the remnant of the early apostolic Church of Italy kindle their lamp, and here did that lamp continue to burn all through the long night which descended on Christendom. There is a singular concurrence of evidence in favour of their high antiquity. Their traditions invariably point to an unbroken descent from the earliest times, as regards their religious belief. The Nobla Leycon, which dates from the year 1100, goes to prove that the Waldenses of Piedmont did not owe their rise to Peter Waldo of Lyons, who did not appear till the latter half of that century (1169). The Nobla Leycon though a poem, is in reality a confession of faith, and could have been composed only after some considerable study of the system of Christianity, in contradistinction to the errors of Rome. How could a Church have arisen with such a document in her hands? Or how could these herdsmen and vine-dressers, shut up in their mountains, have detected the errors against which they bore testimony, and found their way to the truths of which they made open profession in times of darkness like these? If we grant that their religious beliefs were the heritage of former ages, handed down from an evangelical ancestry, all is plain; but if we maintain that they were the discovery of the men of those days, we assert what approaches almost to a miracle. Their greatest enemies, Claude Seyssel of Turin (1517), and Reynerius the Inquisitor (1250), have admitted their antiquity, and stigmatised them as "the most dangerous of all heretics, because the most ancient." History of the Waldenses by Wylie Chapter One



One nineteenth-century historian wrote, "It is plainly established nowadays that Peter Waldus or Valdus was not the founder of the Waldensian church, but owes his enlightened ideas to her. Schetsen van de Geschiedenis der Waldensen (Amsterdam: W. H. Kirberger, 1852), p. 32.

There is clear evidence, however, that during the early centuries evangelical churches were established in southeast France. According to the fourth-century church historian Eusebius, in the second century there were many Christian churches in and around the Alpine area. ( Johannes Florentius Martinet, Kerkelyke Geschiedenis der Waldenzen in de Valeyen van Piemont, tot op deezen tyd (Amsterdam: Wed. Loveringh en Allart, 1775)p.24


• Neander in his ‘General History of the Christian Religion and Church’ mentions that the Waldenses date their separation from Rome to 325AD when Sylvester was given special recognition as the Bishop of Rome under Constantine and the church became aligned with the secular power.

The earliest leader of prominence among the Waldenses is Vigilantius who lived 364-408 AD.
It was in his time that the protests against the introduction of pagan practices into primitive Christianity swelled into separation. And he was in Alpine regions.



Originally Posted By: Memorials of Vigilantius by Gilly
The adovactes of Romish dogmas have often been forward in declaring that the "heresies" of Vigilantius were the seeds of subalpine nonconformity. (Memorials of Vigilantius By W. Gilly p. 325)



Yes, the true apostalic church was in the wilderness, while the roman church ruled on the plains.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman (the pure church) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #164271
04/13/14 07:51 AM
04/13/14 07:51 AM
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Revelation brings many details of the Great Controversy into focus.

Who receives our worship?
Revelation four and five introduces the divine, righteous and glorious Beings
God the Father on His throne.
The Lamb that was slain, having seven horns also called the Lion of Judah, our Savior Jesus Christ.
And the seven spirits representing the Holy Spirit.

In Revelation 12-13 we meet the opposing forces.
The dragon -- that old serpent the devil.
The seven headed beast -- antichrist (in the place of Christ)
The earth beast -- ( false prophet)


Then we have the two women
The woman clothed in white
The woman clothed in scarlet

Both claim to be God's Bride, but one is a harlot while the other stays true to Christ.
One unites with the beast, the other is seen again in Rev. 19 ready to meet her bridegroom, Jesus Christ.

There are two signs
The seal of God signifying God's faithful, commandment keeping people.
The Mark of the beast signifying a people paying homage to the beast.

Two destinies
Life
Death

Two cities
Babylon
Jerusalem

Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: dedication] #164294
04/14/14 02:10 AM
04/14/14 02:10 AM
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Revelation 12

This chapter is a grand summery of the Great Controversy between Christ and Satan. (The Lamb and the Dragon)

Paul helps us understand the issue by writing:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers fo the darkness of the world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Ephesians 6:12)

A Great Wonder in Heaven

There appears a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

The word for "wonder" infers a "sign".
A great sign appears in heaven.

A woman is symbolic of God's people in both the OT and the NT.
A pure and comely woman as those who follow Christ, the harlot as those who try to play on both sides.
The woman (God's people) is the trophy to be won by the winning contender.

The woman in Rev. 12 is clothed with the sun.
"The sun of righteousness" (malachi 4:2)
"I will greatly rejoice in the LORD...for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, he has covered me with the robe of righteousness." Isaiah 61"10

The moon under her feet.

The moon reflects the light. The earthly sanctuary reflected the light of the gospel and gives a foundation in understanding the reality of Christ's salvation and mission. But now her light is come as she is about give birth to Redeemer Himself.

The twelve stars in her crown

Revelation 1:27 tells us "stars' represent the messengers (or leaders) of the churches. We see both the twelve tribal leaders and the twelve apostles mentioned in other places of Revelation. (Rev. 7, and Rev. 21:12,14)

The woman is at a crises point; a point in time on which the fate of the world hangs. The Creator is about to take on a human body and come into the world as the Savior. This is the promised "seed" of the woman that would smite the serpents head foretold in Genesis 3:15.

Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: dedication] #164295
04/14/14 03:40 AM
04/14/14 03:40 AM
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12:3 And there appeared another sign (another wonder) in heaven, a great red dragon....

The dragon is clearly identified as that old serpent the devil.
He has positioned himself to devour the Christ child as soon as he was born. He fully intended to crush this threat to his rule upon earth before there was any chance of Christ crushing his head.

The Biblical record shows Satan was constantly trying to kill Jesus while Christ was on earth. Herod and his infamous massacre of baby boys. Christ's own hometown people trying to throw Him off a cliff, the constant plottings of the priests and Pharisees, and off course the final crucifixion.
Satan thinks he has destroyed his rival, but HOW WRONG HE WAS!
Christ bursts forth from the tomb as conqueror of sin, death and Satan.

He (the Man-child) is caught up unto God and to His throne.

Heb. 8:1-2 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Col 2:13 Having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


Re: The Dragon of Revelation 12 [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #164434
04/19/14 11:12 PM
04/19/14 11:12 PM
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John, who wrote down the messages in Revelation, was present on the Mt. of Olives when this Man-child, then a full grown man, our Resurrected Savior, was caught up unto God and to His throne. He also personally knew about the dragon venting his anger and frustration upon the "woman". All his fellow disciples had died a violent death because of their commitment to Christ, John alone was left alive of the twelve and he was an exile on the Isle of Patmos because the Emperor could not kill him even though he threw him in a boiling pot of oil.

However, outright persecution did not diminish the church. The blood of martyrs was like seed spreading the gospel news to countless others who wanted a faith like that of the martyrs.
So the dragon devises a different plan.

The dragon would join the church!

This picture is shown us in Revelation 13, where a beast that has some pretty strong links with Daniel 7, emerges. Yet it is different. It has the same number of heads and horns as the dragon! It receives it's power from the dragon. What does this beast represent?
Daniel 7 gives us the clue -- it is the continuation of Rome, but that continuation represents CHRISTIAN ROME. Beginning at the time of Constantine the Roman power placed itself at the head of the church. And from this union the "little horn" is born and grows and takes power over the other divisions after imperial western Rome falls.

Now to all appearances the church of Christ is the Roman church. Yet, the Roman church is NOT the pure woman.

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

While the church of Rome claims to be the connecting link from apostolic times to present Christianity, their claim is not Biblical. It is the Church in the Wilderness that is the connecting link between apostolic Christianity and God's people today.

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