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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167589
08/20/14 04:43 AM
08/20/14 04:43 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: mm
Where in the Bible does it say Jesus withholds light because newborn believers are unready to receive it?
John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167591
08/20/14 05:46 AM
08/20/14 05:46 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Jesus said - Teach them how to live in harmony with everything I commanded and then baptize them.

Mt 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:


The order might not be quite as you remember it.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167596
08/20/14 02:20 PM
08/20/14 02:20 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
What about the thief on the cross who accepted Christ?

A baby dies without having experienced repentance, faith, the new birth, baptism, yet he will be saved - at least if his parents are Christian.
Many pagans will be saved without having experienced faith in Christ and baptism.
So, it's God who saves us, not these things. But we will not be saved without them if we had the opportunity to take these steps and didn't take them.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: dedication] #167599
08/20/14 04:09 PM
08/20/14 04:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Yet, they were still keeping Sunday and eating pork, and they didn't think it was sin. Those truths were revealed much later.

Ignorantly breaking the Sabbath and ignorantly eating pork is not the same as ignorantly practicing cultivated sinful habits - "evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

No one who is born again in "God's appointed way" are reborn or converted ignorant of "such like" sinful habits. "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body."

Newborn babes in Christ have tasted the truth as it is in Jesus. They have laid aside all malice, guile, hypocrisies, envies, and all evil speakings. They do not offend in word. They are able to control themselves. While abiding in Jesus, they are perfect.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167600
08/20/14 04:21 PM
08/20/14 04:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: Where in the Bible does it say Jesus withholds light because newborn believers are unready to receive it? unready to embrace it? unready to live in harmony with it? Jesus said - Teach them how to live in harmony with everything I commanded and then baptize them. But most people interpret His command to mean - Baptize them and then teach them how to live in harmony with everything I commanded. Jesus doesn't share all at once everything He commanded. It takes time - conversion is "a long, patient, protracted process". Not one of the 30 Bible references I posted say people are reborn ignorantly practicing certain sinful habits. Not even the SOP quotes you posted say so. "I die daily" does not mean - I sin daily.

A: John 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

Yes, Jesus withheld certain aspects of truth because the disciples were unprepared to hear it - the cross, the fate of Jerusalem, circumcision, the ceremonial services, etc. But He did not withhold light regarding cultivated sinful habits - adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Also, none of the light Jesus withheld from the disciples is to be withheld from people studying to be baptized.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Daryl] #167602
08/20/14 04:29 PM
08/20/14 04:29 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
The light of the Holy Spirit is always shining, but we may take some time to discern it.
You did not comment about the EGW quotes I posted. One of them said God constantly revealed to the apostle Paul his defects of character.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: asygo] #167604
08/20/14 04:32 PM
08/20/14 04:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Jesus said - Teach them how to live in harmony with everything I commanded and then baptize them.

A: Mt 28 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: The order might not be quite as you remember it.

Teach comes before baptize. The order is clear.

Quote:
There is need of a more thorough preparation on the part of candidates for baptism. They are in need of more faithful instruction than has usually been given them. The principles of the Christian life should be made plain to those who have newly come to the truth. None can depend upon their profession of faith as proof that they have a saving connection with Christ. We are not only to say, "I believe," but to practice the truth. It is by conformity to the will of God in our words, our deportment, our character, that we prove our connection with Him. Whenever one renounces sin, which is the transgression of the law, his life will be brought into conformity to the law, into perfect obedience. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. The light of the Word carefully studied, the voice of conscience, the strivings of the Spirit, produce in the heart genuine love for Christ, who gave Himself a whole sacrifice to redeem the whole person, body, soul, and spirit. And love is manifested in obedience. {Ev 308.4}

The test of discipleship is not brought to bear as closely as it should be upon those who present themselves for baptism. It should be understood whether they are simply taking the name of Seventh-day Adventists, or whether they are taking their stand on the Lord's side, to come out from the world and be separate, and touch not the unclean thing. Before baptism, there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidates. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirements of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. {Ev 311.2}

One of the points upon which those newly come to the faith will need instruction is the subject of dress. Let the new converts be faithfully dealt with. Are they vain in dress? Do they cherish pride of heart? The idolatry of dress is a moral disease. It must not be taken over into the new life. In most cases, submission to the gospel requirements will demand a decided change in the dress. {Ev 312.1}

All who study the life of Christ and practice His teachings will become like Christ. Their influence will be like His. They will reveal soundness of character. As they walk in the humble path of obedience, doing the will of God, they exert an influence that tells for the advancement of the cause of God and the healthful purity of His work. In these thoroughly converted souls the world is to have a witness to the sanctifying power of truth upon the human character. {Ev 313.1}

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, expressed in character, is an exaltation above everything that is esteemed in earth or in heaven. It is the very highest education. It is the key that opens the portals of the heavenly city. This knowledge it is God's purpose that all who put on Christ by baptism shall possess. And it is the duty of God's servants to set before these souls the privilege of their high calling in Christ Jesus. {Ev 313.2}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}

Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. {6MR 157.1}

The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ (MS 148, 1897). {6BC 1075.7}

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167606
08/20/14 04:37 PM
08/20/14 04:37 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Ignorantly breaking the Sabbath and ignorantly eating pork is not the same as ignorantly practicing cultivated sinful habits - "evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

I don't see how these sins are different, since God has already revealed His will about all of them in His Word. Abraham, Jacob and David had more than one wife, although polygamy is adultery.

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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167608
08/20/14 04:48 PM
08/20/14 04:48 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Newborn babes in Christ have tasted the truth as it is in Jesus. They have laid aside all malice, guile, hypocrisies, envies, and all evil speakings. They do not offend in word. They are able to control themselves. While abiding in Jesus, they are perfect.

But didn't you say that the hypocritical Peter was born again? He certainly did offend. How come he kept that sinful habit?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: 3rd Quarter 2014 - The Teachings of Jesus [Re: Mountain Man] #167609
08/20/14 04:59 PM
08/20/14 04:59 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
M: Jesus said - Teach them how to live in harmony with everything I commanded and then baptize them.

A: Mt 28 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: The order might not be quite as you remember it.

Teach comes before baptize. The order is clear.

"Teaching them to observe all things" comes after baptism, I think. When I am working with someone, I teach them the basics - all have sinned, the wages of sin is death, the gift of God is life in Christ, he who has the Son has life, the flesh leads to death, we are to be crucified with Christ and raised to walk in newness of life, etc. If he is willing to forsake all for Christ, then I believe he has been conveted. Then we continue studying so that we, myself included, can know God's will more perfectly.

And sometimes, we discover that we have been doing something offensive to God. We lay hold of God's forgiving and empowering grace, die to self, and press on toward the mark.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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