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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Mountain Man] #167714
08/25/14 03:04 PM
08/25/14 03:04 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You did not address the quotes I posted above. Those quotes, and many others like them, make it clear Ellen White believed people crucify all of their cultivated sinful traits of character when they experience conversion in God's appointed way.


Wrongs cannot be righted, nor can reformations in conduct be made by a few feeble, intermittent efforts. Character building is the work, not of a day, nor of a year, but of a lifetime. The struggle for conquest over self, for holiness and heaven, is a lifelong struggle. Without continual effort and constant activity, there can be no advancement in the divine life, no attainment of the victor's crown. {MH 452.1}

The strongest evidence of man's fall from a higher state is the fact that it costs so much to return. The way of return can be gained only by hard fighting, inch by inch, hour by hour. In one moment, by a hasty, unguarded act, we may place ourselves in the power of evil; but it requires more than a moment to break the fetters and attain to a holier life. The purpose may be formed, the work begun; but its accomplishment will require toil, time, perseverance, patience, and sacrifice.
{MH 452.2}

We cannot allow ourselves to act from impulse. We cannot be off guard for a moment. Beset with temptations without number, we must resist firmly or be conquered. Should we come to the close of life with our work undone, it would be an eternal loss.
{MH 452.3}

The life of the apostle Paul was a constant conflict with self. He said, "I die daily."
1 Corinthians 15:31. His will and his desires every day conflicted with duty and the will of God. Instead of following inclination, he did God's will, however crucifying to his nature. {MH 452.4}

At the close of his life of conflict, looking back over its struggles and triumphs, he could say, "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day."
2 Timothy 4:7, 8. {MH 453.1}

The Christian life is a battle and a march. In this warfare there is no release; the effort must be continuous and persevering. It is by unceasing endeavor that we maintain the victory over the temptations of Satan. Christian integrity must be sought with resistless energy and maintained with a resolute fixedness of purpose.
{MH 453.2}

No one will be borne upward without stern, persevering effort in his own behalf. All must engage in this warfare for themselves; no one else can fight our battles. Individually we are responsible for the issues of the struggle; though Noah, Job, and Daniel were in the land they could deliver neither son nor daughter by their righteousness.
{MH 453.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167716
08/25/14 03:32 PM
08/25/14 03:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, what do the quotes you posted above tell you about people who experience conversion in God's appointed way?

Do they support Rosangela and Arnold's idea that people who experience conversion in God's appointed way are converted ignorantly practicing certain cultivated sinful traits of character?

Or, do they support the idea that people who complete the "long, patient, protracted process of conversion" in God's appointed way are converted free from their former cultivated sinful traits of character? free to subdue them? free to control them? free to reign them in? free to abide in Jesus? free to partake of the divine nature? free to walk in the Spirit and in the mind of the new man? free to grow in grace? free to mature in the fruits of the Spirit?

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167717
08/25/14 03:39 PM
08/25/14 03:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Newborn believers, people who complete the "long, patient, protracted process of conversion" in God's appointed way (as opposed to all other ways) are free from "all selfishness," "all evil thinking," and "all evil speaking".

Quote:
Those who gain eternal life must bring every appetite under the control of the Spirit of God. Then will they have power to run the race set before them. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 6} The Christian must lay aside all selfishness, living and working for the good of others. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 7} The Christian must lay aside all self-seeking. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 9}

Only the power of God can banish self-seeking. This change is the sign of His work. When the faith we accept destroys self-seeking and pretense, when it leads us to seek God's glory and not our own, we may know that it is of the right order. "Father, glorify Thy name" was the key-note of Christ's life, and if we follow Him, this will be the key-note of our life. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 11}

The Christian must lay aside doubt. Not one that in penitence and faith has claimed His protection will Christ permit to pass under the enemy's power. The Saviour is by the side of His tempted ones. With Him there can be no such thing as failure, loss, impossibility, or defeat; we can do all things through Him who strengthens us. When temptations and trials come, do not wait to adjust all the difficulties, but look to Jesus, your Helper. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 12}

Envy, malice, evil-thinking, evil-speaking, covetousness,--these are weights that the Christian must lay aside if he runs successfully the race for immortality. {ST, March 19, 1902 par. 15}

Envy, malice, evil thinking, evilspeaking, covetousness--these are weights that the Christian must lay aside if he would run successfully the race for immortality. Every habit or practice that leads into sin and brings dishonor upon Christ must be put away, whatever the sacrifice. The blessing of heaven cannot attend any man in violating the eternal principles of right. One sin cherished is sufficient to work degradation of character and to mislead others. {AA 312.1}

"Love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous" (1 Peter 3:8). True moral worth does not seek to have a place for itself by evil thinking and evil speaking, by demeriting others. All envy, all jealousy, all evil speaking, with all unbelief, must be put away from God's children. {HP 178.5}

God has a variety of workers, and He treats all impartially. He desires us to change the past order of things. He desires us to cease our evil thinking and evil speaking, and to put away our hasty words. We are to part forever with our cruel thoughts and feelings, and love as brethren. We are no longer to act like unmanageable, undisciplined children. "As He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation." Give up now and forever all wrong habits. Take yourself to task. Discipline yourself. Lift the cross and deny self. Control yourself. Then there will be an opportunity for Christ to let His mind be in you. Your words will be sweet and pure. You will give no place to the enemy by giving way to evil thinking and evil speaking,--his most successful means of keeping the church in a weak, unconverted state. {AUCR, April 15, 1905 par. 8}

When the latter rain is poured out, the church will be clothed with power for its work; but the church as a whole will never receive this until its members shall put away from among them, envy, evil-surmisings, and evil-speaking. Those who cherish these sins know not the blessed experience of love; they are not awake to the fact that the Lord is testing and proving their love for him by the attitude they assume toward one another. Christ says to us, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." When this commandment is obeyed, envy, evil-speaking, evil-surmising, and evil-thinking will not be indulged; they will have no part in the formation of character. {RH, October 6, 1896 par. 9}

Sin perpetuates itself. How cruel then it is for those who claim to have a knowledge of God to show that they are not doers of his word. They indulge in evil thinking, criticizing, and accusing, and in this way they misrepresent Christ's character. They are false witnesses, just as were the Jews. I pray that the vision of the soul may be sanctified, that the sin of accusing and criticizing may be put away, as a sin that crucifies afresh the Son of God, and puts him to an open shame. The Holy Spirit must work in our hearts. Let no false pride, no pharisaism, be cherished. Rather let us seek for the spirit of a little child. If we knew, if we only knew, how the Lord regards those who indulge so freely in evil surmising, we would fear to manifest such, a spirit. These surmisings are a repast from the enemy, a banquet of his own preparing. Those who give place to them have an experience in accordance with them; for the mind is built up from the food given it. {RH, October 17, 1899 par. 7}

My brethren and sisters, are we willing to leave self out of the question? Are our energies spent in the Master's service? Are our voices often raised in earnest supplication for power from on high? Is our faith pure and strong? Have we put away all prejudice, all evil thinking and evil speaking? Are our affections set on things above, or are they twining about the things of this earth? Are our eyes open to see the needs of those around us? Can God call us faithful watchmen? {RH, November 12, 1914 par. 8}

The idea that Jesus withholds revealing to people certain of their cultivated sinful traits of character, that He leaves them in darkness until sometime after they complete the "long, patient, protracted process of conversion" in God's appointed way is not biblical.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Mountain Man] #167722
08/26/14 12:15 AM
08/26/14 12:15 AM
Rosangela  Offline OP
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Posts: 6,154
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Quote:
So, it sounds like we agree hereditary, dormant, unknown, uncultivated, defective sinful traits of character do not count as sin, and will not count against people in judgment.

They are sins of ignorance.

Quote:
Jesus had no need to reveal to Paul his cultivated sinful traits of character in a new light after he experienced conversion in God's appointed way.

The passage speaks about Paul's post-conversion experience. This is very clear.

Quote:
But Paul, like everyone else, possessed dormant, unknown, uncultivated, defective traits of character. Jesus would, from time to time, reveal certain of them to Paul in advance of upcoming circumstances that would bring Paul face to face with them for the first time. By so doing, Jesus worked to prepare Paul to successfully recognize and resist them.

So Jesus and Paul experienced something that other poor mortals do not experience - a prophetic revelation from God about their "dormant, unknown, uncultivated, defective traits of character"? I suspect you have no inspired quote to support this.
Anyway, the passage is not speaking about this at all. It's speaking about "wrong[s]" - cultivated defective traits of character the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul after his conversion.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167725
08/26/14 04:16 AM
08/26/14 04:16 AM
dedication  Offline
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Quote:
MM wrote: "Newborn believers, people who complete the "long, patient, protracted process of conversion" in God's appointed way (as opposed to all other ways) are free from "all selfishness," "all evil thinking," and "all evil speaking".




In other words 99.999999% of Christians (including Adventists) are not converted.

"free from all selfishness, all evil thinking..."
I have yet to meet such a one.

It seems to me that you are denying that the decision to renounce all sin and crucify self, and to fill the mind with pure thoughts and to daily walk with Christ and depend on His strength, which involves a complete "about face" in ones life, isn't yet conversion, and that conversion doesn't take place until perfection is reached. (free from "all selfishness," "all evil thinking).

Conversion isn't a magic wand that instantly rearranges all the patterns of the mind and habits of living, BUT it is a complete turn around of direction. The "new creature" has their sinful past FORGIVEN, and is to count himself dead to sin, His focus now is on Christ and His righteousness rather than on the principles of the world. However, the battle against sinful propensities and habits will continue throughout their lives, the "refining process" continues throughout their lives. All selfishness is NOT gone with the flick of switch at conversion.


Selfishness is a multi-faceted thing, that has deep roots and is interlacing multiple areas in our lives-- often without us even thinking it is selfishness. These things are still "cultivated" and practiced, just not recognized as selfishness and sin.
A person may appear to be loving and selfless, and think their selfishness has been "crucified", then suddenly be faced by a situation that evokes considerable feelings of self pity and anger.


The thing is --
Those types of situations appear again and again in one's life. An area where we may think we are "unselfish" is suddenly exposed that we had some selfish motives or we would not have responded the way did. The Holy Spirit continually leads us to see another area in our lives where selfishness still has it's tentacles strangling a righteous response. A person may think they have no prejudices against others, till they find themselves in a situation where they find out they ARE prejudice, and need to do some serious work with the Lord to have a change of attitude.


The only reason we aren't held accountable for sins not yet revealed to us, is NOT because we are free from all selfishness and evil thinking, but because Christ's merits and blood cover us.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167727
08/26/14 04:43 AM
08/26/14 04:43 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The only reason we aren't held accountable for sins not yet revealed to us, is NOT because we are free from all selfishness and evil thinking, but because Christ's merits and blood cover us.
what does that mean??????


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167731
08/26/14 03:17 PM
08/26/14 03:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dedication
In other words 99.999999% of Christians (including Adventists) are not converted.

Will not those who profess to be Christians walk in the light of the Sun of Righteousness showing by their life and character that they realize the value of the atoning sacrifice of Christ our Saviour? The truth is not to be rendered lusterless by a manifestation of our own unsanctified, selfish spirit. The truth must shine forth in the life; then Christ is glorified. Emptied of self we must be, else we cannot show that Christ is formed within, the hope of glory. The Lord would have self hidden, for when it appears, souls are misled. The preciousness and importance of truth must appear, and will appear, when self is hid with Christ in God; then Jesus will be revealed in our lives. Our characters will be molded after the divine similitude. Then the Holy Spirit will control the human agent. Men will possess the attributes of Christ. {12MR 50.3}

The minds of many are clouded with unbelief because those who unite with the church as the chosen of God do not reveal the virtues that are the fruits of the Spirit. Joining the church is not a sure evidence that a man has joined himself to Christ. The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. {12MR 51.1}

Thousands who claim to be religious are not Christians. Paul was very strict in carrying out his religion, but he was not a Christian until Christ revealed Himself to him and talked with him, showing him that he was persecuting his Master in the person of His saints. Then Paul was converted. He became one of the sect he had despised and hated; and for his love of Christ he received the same cruel treatment that he had once cooperated with others in giving. {12MR 51.2}

Christians forget that they are servants of the Master; that they themselves, their time, and all that they have belong to Him. Many are tempted, and the majority are overcome, by the delusive inducements which Satan presents to invest their money where it will yield them the greatest profit in dollars and cents. There are but few who consider the binding claims that God has upon them to make it their first business to meet the necessities of His cause and let their own desires be served last. There are but few who invest in God's cause in proportion to their means. Many have fastened their money in property which they must sell before they can invest it in the cause of God and thus put it to a practical use. They make this an excuse for doing but little in their Redeemer's cause. They have as effectually buried their money in the earth as had the man in the parable. They rob God of the tenth, which He claims as His own, and in robbing Him they rob themselves of the heavenly treasure. {3T 398.1}

It cannot be said that the majority of those who claim to be Christians are truly spiritual-minded. As true today as when uttered by the lips of the great Teacher, are the words: "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able" [Luke 13:24]. "For wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" [Matthew 7:13, 14]. {19MR 247.3}

Some are doing literally nothing for the truth, and by their example of indifference are bringing others into the same position of uselessness, and thus are scattering from Christ. This latter class includes by far the greater number. {PaM 146.3}

The character, the motives, the desires and purposes, are as clear as the light of the sun to the eye of the Omnipotent. But few bear this in mind. The larger class by far do not realize what a fearful account must be rendered at the bar of God by all the transgressors of His law. {5T 147.2}

By far the larger class do not bear this in mind because they do not cultivate spirituality and test their character by God's standard of right. They do not bear constantly in mind that a fearful account must be rendered at the bar of God by all the transgressors of His law. The life must be ordered and fashioned as in the eye of the great Taskmaster. Can you who have professed to receive such great light in advance of every other people on the face of the earth, be content with a low level? {TSB 106.1}

Souls are in the darkness of error, ignorant of God, of Christ, and of the truth. But too many of those who call themselves Christians, carry no burden for their fellow-beings. They expect the minister to devise all the plans, and set in operation all the influences that are to win souls to the cross of Christ. By far the larger number of professed Christians feel themselves detached from the perishing world around them. Yet they are a part of the great web of humanity, and Heaven looks upon them as brothers to sinners, as well as to saints. As they mingle with others, they exert an influence that either helps souls on the way to heaven, or helps to drive them to perdition. Each one acts himself. {ST, October 28, 1897 par. 3}

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167732
08/26/14 03:23 PM
08/26/14 03:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Rosangela, the multitude of passages posted on this thread make it clear Paul died to sin, self, and Satan the moment he experienced conversion in God's appointed way. Jesus did not wait until a later date to reveal to Paul certain cultivated sinful traits of character.

Dormant, uncultivated hereditary sinful traits of character do not count as sins of ignorance. Sin is the transgression of the law. People must cherish, think, speak, or behave unlike Jesus to incur guilt and condemnation. Not sinning does not incur guilt or condemnation.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167733
08/26/14 03:33 PM
08/26/14 03:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dedication
It seems to me that you are denying that the decision to renounce all sin and crucify self, and to fill the mind with pure thoughts and to daily walk with Christ and depend on His strength, which involves a complete "about face" in ones life, isn't yet conversion, and that conversion doesn't take place until perfection is reached. (free from "all selfishness," "all evil thinking).

The passages posted throughout this thread make it clear people who complete the process of converting from the ways of the world to the ways of God, observing all things whatsoever Jesus commanded, are born again dead to sin, self, and Satan. They are awake to Christ and His righteousness. While abiding in Jesus, they are empowered to subdue, control, reign in their former cultivated sinful traits of character. They are also empowered to recognize and resist the assaults of sinful flesh and Satan: new tricks, new tact, new strategies, new sins, new forms of selfishness - all of which they are able to recognize and resist the first time they encounter such unChristlikeness. They renew their conversion daily. They grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit. There is nothing instantaneous about it. It requires hard work to stay connected to Christ.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Mountain Man] #167735
08/26/14 04:52 PM
08/26/14 04:52 PM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Rosangela, the multitude of passages posted on this thread make it clear Paul died to sin, self, and Satan the moment he experienced conversion in God's appointed way. Jesus did not wait until a later date to reveal to Paul certain cultivated sinful traits of character.


So you equate the renouncing of sin and self and full commitment to serve only Christ as no longer having any more selfishness or sin within our characters that still need to be revealed?

What is growth in holiness? Is it not the rooting out of tentacles of selfishness still strangling our righteous response to situations and worship?
And were God to reveal the full scope of our selfishness in one swoop we would be totally overwhelmed, thus God leads us step by step, first cutting down the tree of selfishness at conversion, then leading us on to root out all those tangled roots still unseen but very necessary to be rooted out.

It's not true that these unrecognized entanglements are not being practiced and cultivated, for they are.
That's why we are to pray:
Ps. 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.
Ps. 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.




The scriptures say we are reckon ourselves dead to sin -- Romans 6:11.
We are to reckon or consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ. This is a transition of loyalty to masters. Dead to the old master of sin, and alive to our new Master Christ and His righteousness.
But this reckoning does not automatically erase all active habits and motives that have been part of our being up until that time. Yes, at conversion there should be a dramatic change as the tree of worldly conformity is cut down, but now begins the battle in the power of Christ through the Holy Spirit of cleaning out all those roots of selfishness and sin that are still very much alive and influencing our lives. That battle is finding those roots and not allowing them to flourish any more in our lives. This is a progressive work through which the Holy Spirit leads us.

All those quotes you posted are about that battle and the willingness of the converted person to engage in that battle against all selfishness and sin in the power of the Holy Spirit. The converted persons desire is to be more and more like Jesus. They will not excuse sin, but turn to Jesus for victory.

There is no quote anywhere that God has no more sins in our lives to reveal to us. In fact the Bible says:
He that says he is without sin is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1 John 1: 8-10

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