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Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #167695
08/24/14 06:30 AM
08/24/14 06:30 AM
dedication  Offline
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Revelation 17 is not the easiest chapter.
There is considerable diversity concerning the meaning of the symbols, especially since the harlot and the beast both seem to represent Babylon. The one (harlot) representing the religious component, while the beast with its ten horns represents the political component.

In Revelation 13 we generally have no problem saying the seven headed, ten horned beast represents papal Rome. The religious and political components were one in that chapter. But in Revelation 17 we say the woman represents papal Rome with her daughters (protestants who have lost their protest), the religious aspect, sitting on the beast that also represents papal Rome but the focus is on the use of political power to enact her power over the nations.



The one hour reign


During that one hour the ten horns reign WITH THE BEAST. The ten horns are not against the beast, they single mindedly work with the beast, reigning with the beast for one hour. The ten horns are part of the system. This alliance will continue one hour. “These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. (Revelation 17:13)

These ten kings are not ordinary kings, in that they don't have a kingdom. So they are not regular nations.
Usually “kings” is linked to kingdoms – but these ten have no kingdom, YET, and don’t receive it until that hour – when they “receive power as kings one hour with the beast”

REGIONALISM and GLOBAL GOVERNANCE may well be the “ten kings” that have not yet received their kingdom and won’t until that hour. They are set up by the “beast”. The plan has been in experiment stage for several years now. Its aim is to erase national borders and divide the world into ten regions each with its own single currency. North America is region #1 consisting of USA, Canada, and Mexico. Region #2 is Europe which already has it’s Euro, and free border inter region border crossings. Region #6 is South America. These regions would be easier to control than a lot of independent little countries.


Maybe we also need to look at the “one hour” a little more.? Is the hour in which the ten horns receive their kingdom and reign with the beast, the same hour in which Babylon is destroyed? Or are there two separate “hours”, one preceding the other?

One hour of reigning with the beast – followed by one hour of the political leaders (kings over the ten regions) turning on the religious leaders when they see their plan of controlling the world isn’t going to work.

I tend to agree that the time frame when this confederation comes together and the ten horns reign with the beast begins most likely prior to the close of probation. Yet the demise of the papal beast and false prophet (which constitute Babylon) occurs AFTER probation has closed.

So is it possible the ten reign with the beast an hour beginning prior to probations close. And the one hour when they turn on Babylon to be later after probation has closed?

Scripture fully supports that the greatest bloody war occurs at the very end. All restraint on violence is removed. The only ones protected are those under the “wings” of our Savior.


Another question – is the “one hour” prophetic time or is it an expression of “a short time”?

Could its use be in connection with the hour "watches" of ancient Judaism, and it's use alerting us to "watch and pray" as the end scenes are about to come?

Didn't Prophetic Time (symbolic day/year reckoning) end in 1844?

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: dedication] #167700
08/24/14 03:02 PM
08/24/14 03:02 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication

Another question – is the “one hour” prophetic time or is it an expression of “a short time”?

Could its use be in connection with the hour "watches" of ancient Judaism, and it's use alerting us to "watch and pray" as the end scenes are about to come?

Didn't Prophetic Time (symbolic day/year reckoning) end in 1844?


I think the day/year principle is valid here because 1) a literal hour is too short for 10 powers to unseat the world's dominant empire and 2) if the intention is to tell us merely that the duration is short, then the inspired text would convey that thought, but since it uses a unit of time measurement we need to take that as literally as we can.

Christ states that there are 12 hours in a day. A modern day has 24 hours but a scriptural day, from sunset to sunset has 12 hours according to the Lord. If we use the day for year principle, one hour is one twelveth of a year or a month.

What are your thoughts on the drying up of the Euphrates, Dedication, anyone?

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #167720
08/25/14 10:02 PM
08/25/14 10:02 PM
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I would tend to agree with dedication for the most part. Especially I would object to "The ten kings from the east that humble Babylon are a coalition of the Asiatic powers. " Why Asiatic?

News from the East is Good News! For some. Not so for others as the message is to come out of Babylon.

A river into Babylon is life. Drying up the river is drying up life. I see it as probation has closed for everyone, there are no more messages for coming out of Babylon.

We are told that all the kings of the earth will form alliances with Babylon. At the end, they will turn on Babylon for misleading them. Could not these be the 10 kings? For a short time, like 15 days, before they realize the mistake?


(I disagree with your 12 hours in a day part. For many today could say, are there not 8 hours in a day and they wouldn't be saying anything about daylength, but about how long is it for working. You can only work during daytime in the harvest fields. And besides, you would erode the past 2300 days prophecy)

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: kland] #167729
08/26/14 07:18 AM
08/26/14 07:18 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland


A river into Babylon is life. Drying up the river is drying up life. I see it as probation has closed for everyone, there are no more messages for coming out of Babylon.

Very nicely put.
The river is dried up at the beginning of the sixth plague -- probation is closed.
The river was also Babylon's protection.
But here Babylon is without protection, God's Holy Spirit is totally withdrawn.

Originally Posted By: kland
We are told that all the kings of the earth will form alliances with Babylon. At the end, they will turn on Babylon for misleading them. Could not these be the 10 kings? For a short time, like 15 days, before they realize the mistake?

That is supported by the text. Revelation 17 tells us that the ten horns (ten kings) with one mind give their power and support to the beast for one hour. They receive their kingship during this time and use it in full devotion to the beast.

The one hour

"one hour" can simply mean a period of time or a season.
I tend to see it as referring to "the last hour" of earths history.

We do see it used that way in other scripture.

The first angel's message declares "the hour of his judgment is come" Rev. 14:7
The message to the sixth church: " I also will keep thee from the hour G5610 of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, Rev. 3:10

1 John 1:28 "Little children, it is the last hour G5610, and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,"

John 5:25 "The hour G5610 is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God

Speaking of John the Baptist
John 5:35 John He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season G5610 (for an hour) to rejoice in his light.

Luke 20:23 this is your hour, G5610 and the power of darkness.


The ten horns reign with the beast for a short time, then when the evidence is given that Gods people are right, these horns turn on Babylon.

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #167741
08/27/14 12:40 PM
08/27/14 12:40 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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This hour question isn't a big issue so I won't belabor it except to make a final comment. Here are the texts we're looking at:
,
Rev_17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.
Rev_18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas! Alas! You great city, you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come."
Rev_18:17 For in a single hour all this wealth has been laid waste." And all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea, stood far off
Rev_18:19 And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out, "Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth! For in a single hour she has been laid waste.

In each case the word hour is preceded by “one” or “single”, which tells us a specific rather than vague amount of time.

Regarding the hours of the Jewish day, I'm wrong on that point. I see now that the Jews did have twelve daylight hours. For example, the vineyard keeper came to the market place to hire 11th hour workers. This was when one hour of daylight remained. So I'm reverting the the 15 day time frame, but again, this is a minor point.

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #167742
08/27/14 12:46 PM
08/27/14 12:46 PM
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I'm still studying the drying of the Euphrates. Thank you for your thoughts.

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: dedication] #167744
08/27/14 03:38 PM
08/27/14 03:38 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The one hour

"one hour" can simply mean a period of time or a season.
I tend to see it as referring to "the last hour" of earths history.

We do see it used that way in other scripture.
I looked it up in the Greek and had expected a different word. But it's the same. However, when you read, the hour of His judgment is come, the context doesn't really suggest a time length to me but a period of time or season. Similar but different. When it says "for one hour", that to me suggests a specific time frame. Whether it is viewed as 15 days or a short period of time, it is still a specific time versus a more vague hour of judgment. I personally tend to go with it being symbolic time, not that it would really matter much to anyone during that time. At least not during the meltdown hour. But that hour of reign, when everything is completely against God's people, it can be a promise to them that it won't last long.

Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #167884
09/02/14 03:25 PM
09/02/14 03:25 PM
His child  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Quote:
And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. . . . He shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. Dan 11:40-45.



My study re:

Kings of the North___________________Kings of the South

Babylon (605-539 BC)_________________Egypt (605 BC-1798 AD)
Medo-Persia (539-331)
Greece (331-168)
Imperial Rome (168 BC-1453 AD)

Ottoman Empire (1453-1840)___________France (1798-1870 AD)
Great Britain (1840-1941)____________Italy (1870-1945)

(USA*) King of the North
Franklin D. Roosevelt (1941-1945)___Mussolini (1922-1945)

Truman (1945-1953)__________________Egypt (1945-1973)
Eisenhower (1953-1961)
John F. Kennedy (1961-1963)
LB Johnson (1963-1969)
Richard Nixon (1969-1974)___________bin Laden (1973-2001)
Gerald Ford (1974-1977)
Jimmy Carter (1977-1981)
Ronald Wilson Reagan (1981-1989)
George HW Bush (1989-1993)
William j. Clinton (1993-2001)

George W. Bush (2001-2009)__________Afghanistan (2001-2003)
____________________________________Iraq (2003-2010)

Barack Obama (2009…)________________Iran (2010…)

*The last power “that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is…the United States” (ST, 2/8/1910 par. 5).


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: Charity] #167891
09/02/14 07:21 PM
09/02/14 07:21 PM
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This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, is represented by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea; but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which it symbolized--the United States. {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 5}

T
he "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of our own Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles,--Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America, rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. {ST, February 8, 1910 par. 6}

The two horns = Republicanism and Protestantism.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Identifying the Kings of the North and South - Daniel 11 [Re: APL] #167903
09/03/14 03:45 AM
09/03/14 03:45 AM
dedication  Offline
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One reason I do not think Obama is the last president is because he is too friendly with the Muslim side. In the near future there will be a dramatic shift.

Watch this video.

http://www.cbn.com/tv/embedplayer.aspx?bcid=1509282970001

How do you understand it in prophecy?

I see it as the king of the south pushing against the king of the North.

(King of south – Muslims
King of north – Papacy and Christian Allies-- especially the USA)


Quote:
11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
11:42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.



A leader in the USA will arise who will (with the aid of the ten horns and under the blessings of the papacy, rise against what you just saw on that video.
The problem though -- they will also impose religion upon the world -- the Catholic version, so it won't be any better.

Quote:
As we approach the last crisis it is of vital moment
that harmony and unity exist among the Lord's instrumentalities. The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902). {LDE 131.5}
Laws enforcing the observance of Sunday as the Sabbath will bring about a national apostasy from the principles of republicanism upon which the government has been founded. The religion of the papacy will be accepted by the rulers, and the law of God will be made void.--7MR 192 (1906). {LDE 132.1}
A day of great intellectual darkness has been shown to be favorable to the success of popery. It will yet be demonstrated that a day of great intellectual light is equally favorable for its success.--4SP 390 (1884). {LDE 132.2}

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