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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: dedication] #167755
08/27/14 07:39 PM
08/27/14 07:39 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
So you equate the renouncing of sin and self and full commitment to serve only Christ as no longer having any more selfishness or sin within our characters that still need to be revealed? What is growth in holiness?

Growth in holiness is growth in holiness - "an advance from one stage of perfection to another." {ML 250.4} From faith to faith, from glory to glory, from grace to grace. "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

Originally Posted By: dedication
And were God to reveal the full scope of our selfishness in one swoop we would be totally overwhelmed . . .

Conversion is a "long, patient, protracted process". "One ray of the glory of God, one gleam of the purity of Christ, penetrating the soul, makes every spot of defilement painfully distinct, and lays bare the deformity and defects of the human character. It makes apparent the unhallowed desires, the infidelity of the heart, the impurity of the lips. The sinner's acts of disloyalty in making void the law of God, are exposed to his sight, and his spirit is stricken and afflicted under the searching influence of the Spirit of God. He loathes himself as he views the pure, spotless character of Christ. {SC 29.1}

Originally Posted By: dedication
It's not true that these unrecognized entanglements are not being practiced and cultivated, for they are.

Please post inspired passages which support this idea.

Quote:
God's people are in danger of being separated from the Sun of Righteousness. "This is the will of God," the apostle says, "even your sanctification." This sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, entire conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to him through obedience to the truth. Our conscience must be purged from dead works to serve the living God. If our lives are conformed to the life of Christ through the sanctification of mind, soul, and body, our example will have a powerful influence on the world. We are not perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglement of self and sin, and go on unto perfection. "We all, with open face, beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." Great possibilities, high and holy attainments, are placed within the reach of all who have true faith. Shall we not anoint our eyes with eye-salve, that we may discern the wonderful things God has for us? {YI, August 24, 1899 par. 2}

Paul's sanctification was a constant conflict with self. "I die daily," he said. Every day his will and his desires conflicted with duty and the will of God. But instead of following inclination, he did the will of God, however unpleasant and crucifying to his nature. If we would press forward to the mark of our high calling in Christ Jesus, we must show that we are emptied of all self, and supplied with the golden oil of grace. God is dealing with us through his providence. From eternity he has chosen us to be his obedient children. He gave his Son to die for us, that we might be sanctified through obedience to the truth, cleansed from all the littleness of self. Now he requires of us a personal work, a personal self-surrender. We are to be controlled by the Holy Spirit. God can be honored only when we who profess to believe in him are conformed to his image. We are to represent to the world the beauty of holiness, and we shall never enter the gates of the city of God until we perfect a Christlike character. If we, with trust in God, strive for sanctification, we shall receive it. Then, as witnesses for Christ, we may make known what the grace of God has wrought in us. {YI, August 24, 1899 par. 3}

God is leading out a people to stand in perfect unity upon the platform of eternal truth. Christ gave himself for the world, that he might "purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." This refining process is designed to purge his people from all unrighteousness and the spirit of discord and contention, that they may build up instead of tearing down, and consecrate their energies to the great work before them. God designs that his people shall come into the unity of the faith. In his prayer for his followers Christ said: "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." {YI, August 24, 1899 par. 4}

The soul is exalted and transformed by dwelling, not on self and on the sorrows and hardships that surround us, but on the glories of the eternal world. Unbroken communion with God gives increased knowledge of his truth and will, and of the soul's susceptibilities and powers; and the result will be unselfish motives and right traits of character. There will be no darkness or gloom to reflect to others. More of Heaven in men on earth would make religion attractive, and win souls to Christ. {ST, March 5, 1885 par. 11}

Christ came not to be ministered unto, but to minister; and when his love reigns in the heart, we shall follow his example. If we keep uppermost in our minds the unkind and unjust acts of others, we shall find it impossible to love them as Christ has loved us; for there are few persons who do not on close acquaintance reveal unamiable traits of character. Even the best of us have these unlovely traits; and in selecting friends we should choose those who will not be driven away from us when they learn that we are not perfect. Mutual forbearance is called for. We should love and respect one another notwithstanding the faults and imperfections that we cannot help seeing; for this is the Spirit of Christ. Humility and self-distrust should be cultivated, and a patient tenderness with the faults of others. This will kill out all narrowing selfishness and make us large-hearted and generous. {ST, March 5, 1885 par. 12}

If you have perplexities and troubles--and these are the common lot of mankind--do not tell them to others, and thus shadow their path. Do not go for help to every source but the right one; but tell Jesus everything; take it to the Lord in prayer, and then believe that he accepts you and your burden. Faith is the gift of God, but the power to exercise it is yours. A single earnest expression of faith strengthens faith; but every expression of doubt confirms doubt, and helps to gather about your soul the dark shadows of unbelief. Then do not open your soul to Satan's temptations by cherishing and expressing the doubts that he insinuates. Talk faith and courage. Press to the light; and bright beams from the Sun of Righteousness will dispel clouds and darkness, and sweet peace will pervade the soul. {ST, March 5, 1885 par. 13}

Every child that is not carefully and prayerfully disciplined will be unhappy in this probationary time and will form such unlovely traits of character that the Lord cannot unite them with His family in heaven. {CG 213.3}

They forget that Christ has said, "Without Me ye can do nothing." John 15:5. They walk apart from Christ, their life is not pervaded by His grace, and the characteristics of self are revealed. Their service is marred by desire for supremacy, and the harsh, unlovely traits of the unsubdued heart. Here is one of the chief secrets of failure in Christian work. This is why its results are often so meager. {COL 52.1}

My brethren in the gospel ministry, let us feed the flock of God. Let us bring encouragement and cheerfulness to every heart. Let us turn the eyes of our brethren and sisters away from the unlovely traits of character possessed by nearly everyone, and teach them to behold Christ, the One altogether lovely, the Chiefest among ten thousand.... {Ev 346.3}

Many who claim to be children of God are children of the wicked one, and have all his passions, his prejudices, his evil spirit, his unlovely traits of character. But the soul that is indeed transformed will not despise any one whom Christ has purchased with His own blood. Men may have both hereditary and cultivated prejudices, but when the love of Jesus fills the heart, and they become one with Christ, they will have the same spirit that He had. {SW 13}

We have no time to spend in cultivating and cherishing our unlovely traits of character. The hour of grace is fast passing. Christ has borne long with the world, but the cup of long-deferred wrath is fast filling. God has given us light, great light. Have we walked in the light? Have we lived the light? Have not some, fully satisfied with their own unsanctified, irreligious lives, walked directly contrary to the light? {HM, November 1, 1897 par. 8}

The beautiful mansions are opened to those who have practiced self-denial, who have brought their wills into subjection to the will of God, and in life and character have conformed to the divine standard. They may have by nature fierce tempers and grave faults, and these may have been fostered and increased by wrong methods of training; but if through the grace of Christ they subdue their unlovely traits, and fight the good fight of faith, they will receive the overcomer's rich reward. {ST, January 8, 1885 par. 12}

Even among professing Christians there are persons who are always on the watch for some thing at which to take offense. If their friends are absorbed in matters that require their attention, and have no time to devote to them, they feel slighted and injured. In the family they seize upon some unfortunate word that has been dropped, and take offense at it, as though it were designed to hurt and disparage them. If these continue to cherish such unlovely traits of character, they cannot expect to be loved. Their lives are like the gorgeous flowers which possess no fragrance. Much to be preferred is the simple, unpretending blossom that blesses with its sweet odor those who come in contact with it. {YI, June 10, 1897 par. 8}

Character will always be tested. If Christ dwells in us, day by day and year by year, we shall grow into a noble heroism. This is our allotted task, but it can not be accomplished without help from Jesus, without resolute decision, unwavering purpose, continual watchfulness, and unceasing prayer. Each has a personal battle to fight; each must win his way through struggles and discouragements. Those who decline the struggle, lose the strength and joy of victory. No one, not even God, can make our characters noble or our lives useful unless we make the effort necessary on our part. We must put features of beauty into our lives. We must seek to expel the unlovely traits, while God works in us to will and to do of his good pleasure. {YI, October 29, 1907 par. 13}

Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and He does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the sin bearer. . . . Let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition (MS 56, 1900). {7BC 941.7}

You deceive yourself with the idea that these unamiable traits do not exist, until you are brought into positions which make you act and speak in a manner that reveals them to all. You are not willing to see and confess that it is your carnal nature which has not yet been transformed and brought into subjection to Christ. You have not yet crucified self. {2T 572.1}

Those only who are converted will enter into the kingdom of heaven. What would we think of Christ manifesting no warmth of love, no disposition to help those in need? Yet many who profess to be His followers are cold and unsympathetic. They make little effort to help those with whom they come in contact. They are not transformed in character. Their words show that they are not converted. They have none of Christ's tenderness. Their unamiable traits of character, their lack of sympathy, show that they have lost their first love. They need to repent and be converted; for Christ is greatly dishonored by their selfishness. The Saviour does not abide in their hearts, or they would be touched with the feeling of others' infirmities. They are self-centered, harsh, unaccommodating. {PUR, February 9, 1905 par. 5}

If, when Christ comes the second time, they are as they are now,--harsh in words, coarse in spirit, destitute of Christlike love,--their candlestick will be removed out of its place. They will not be ready to meet their Lord. O, that they would feel the necessity of putting on the Lord Jesus! O, that they would seek to understand what is due from man to his fellow man! {PUR, February 9, 1905 par. 6}

Before baptism there should be a thorough inquiry as to the experience of the candidate. Let this inquiry be made, not in a cold and distant way, but kindly, tenderly, pointing the new converts to the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world. Bring the requirement of the gospel to bear upon the candidates for baptism. Christ is represented as bearing the griefs and sorrows caused by sin, and he does this, not only as our sympathizing friend, but as our substitute. Therefore our sins of selfishness, of unamiable temper, of indolence, of wrong habits and practices, are to be positively and firmly put away. The one who breaks with Satan is to give no place to his temptations. Let the souls who come to Christ consider that He is the Sin-bearer, "wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." "Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses." All this is done for the sinner, and as the sinner comes to Christ, helpless, penitent, and humble; as he views the expensive expiation made in his behalf, let the repenting soul lay hold by faith of the provision made to save him, not in his sin, but from his sin. Christ as the sin-bearer must take away the sin and rescue the sinner from his morbid spiritual condition. As he asks for a change of heart, the answer comes, "My son, give me thine heart." "A new heart will I give thee." I will restore you to a pure, holy atmosphere, that you, being dead to sin, may live unto righteousness. {6MR 157.1}


We only can let our light shine to the glory of God when we manifest the goodness and mercy of Christ, not only toward those who please us, but toward those who are faulty and erring and sinful. Let all our works be wrought in God, and if we have unamiable traits of character, let us overcome these unsavory representatives, and cease to dishonor God and bring the truth into disrepute. {RH, July 14, 1891 par. 6}

The Lord Jesus came to earth that he might recreate the image of God in man. He says to the repenting sinner, "A new heart will I give you." "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." He who abides in Christ, and has Christ abiding in his heart by faith, cannot retain the same unlovely traits of character as were made manifest in his life before he had a connection with Christ. Christ came to save men from their sins, not in their sins. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." "We then as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain." "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." {ST, August 21, 1893 par. 2}

Christ came to the world that we might become new creatures, created after the similitude of his own character; that we might have purity like the purity of God, have perfection like his perfection. In the work of regeneration, the original loveliness begins to be restored. The attributes of the character of Christ are imparted to the soul, and the image of the divine begins to shine forth. "We all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." It is plainly declared that a change takes place in the character of the human agent. {ST, August 21, 1893 par. 3}

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Mountain Man] #167759
08/28/14 04:49 AM
08/28/14 04:49 AM
dedication  Offline
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I appears to me that the quotes confirm what I believe.
The sinful habits do not disappear at conversion.
It is a life long battle, and as we walk that road, sins we never considered as sins will be revealed to us.

The only reason we are perfect at conversion is because Christ died for our sins and freely forgives and justifies and grants us His merits.
"For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

THEN -- starting with a clean legal slate and counting ourselves dead to sin and alive in Christ, the work of regeneration begins.

"In the work of regeneration, the original loveliness begins to be restored.

Quote:
Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. Their lives may be irreproachable, they may be living representatives of the truth which they have accepted; but the more they discipline their minds to dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own defects.{RH, January 18, 1881 par. 2}

he nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14. {AA 561.2}

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167772
08/28/14 04:32 PM
08/28/14 04:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Dedication, thank you for sharing your view of conversion. Unfortunately, though, we disagree on a vital truth.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167802
08/29/14 04:51 PM
08/29/14 04:51 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Not everyone agrees with the following descriptions of newborn babes in Christ. Most people believe newborn babes in Christ are born again ignorantly practicing some of the "unlovely traits of character as were made manifest in his life before he had a connection with Christ."

Quote:
"The Lord Jesus came to earth that he might recreate the image of God in man. He says to the repenting sinner, "A new heart will I give you." "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." He who abides in Christ, and has Christ abiding in his heart by faith, cannot retain the same unlovely traits of character as were made manifest in his life before he had a connection with Christ. Christ came to save men from their sins, not in their sins." {ST, August 21, 1893 par. 2}

The gospel seed often falls among thorns and noxious weeds; and if there is not a moral transformation in the human heart, if old habits and practices and the former life of sin are not left behind, if the attributes of Satan are not expelled from the soul, the wheat crop will be choked. The thorns will come to be the crop, and will kill out the wheat. {COL 50.3}

All self-indulgence is to be cut away from their lives. Before they can really understand the meaning of true sanctification and of conformity to the will of Christ, they must, by co-operating with God, obtain the mastery over wrong habits and practices. {CG 396.3}

Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. {CCh 297.3}

John says, "The light"--Christ--"shineth in darkness," that is, in the world, "and the darkness comprehended it not. . . . But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The reason why the unbelieving world are not saved is that they do not choose to be enlightened. The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again. {RH, April 12, 1892 par. 9}

God will accept only those who are determined to aim high. He places every human agent under obligation to do his best. Moral perfection is required of all. Never should we lower the standard of righteousness in order to accommodate inherited or cultivated tendencies to wrong-doing. We need to understand that imperfection of character is sin. All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes. {COL 330.2}

The life of the vine will be manifest in fragrant fruit on the branches. "He that abideth in Me," said Jesus, "and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing." When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing. {DA 676.4}

The leaven hidden in the flour works invisibly to bring the whole mass under its leavening process; so the leaven of truth works secretly, silently, steadily, to transform the soul. The natural inclinations are softened and subdued. New thoughts, new feelings, new motives, are implanted. A new standard of character is set up--the life of Christ. The mind is changed; the faculties are roused to action in new lines. Man is not endowed with new faculties, but the faculties he has are sanctified. The conscience is awakened. We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God. {COL 98.3}

Whatever may be our temperament, we are to form a character after the divine Pattern; we have no excuse for retaining the mold and superscription of our nature; for Christ has died that we may have his mold and superscription. We cannot retain self and yet be filled with the fullness of God. We must be emptied of self. If heaven is gained by us at last, it will be only through the renunciation of self, and the receiving of the mind of Christ. Pride and self-sufficiency must be crucified, and the vacuum supplied with the Spirit and power of God. Are we willing to pay the price required of us for eternal life? Are we ready to sit down and count the cost, and conclude that heaven is worth the sacrifice of dying to self, of having our will brought into perfect conformity with the will of God? Until we are willing, the transforming grace of God will not be manifested upon us. When we present our emptied nature to God, he will by his Holy Spirit supply the vacuum made by the renunciation of self, and give us of his fullness. The Lord would not have us perish. He would have us consecrate to his service all there is of us; for he desires to bless us more than we desire to be blessed. He would have us abide in Christ, receive his blessing, and diffuse it to others while we live, that we may enjoy a blessed eternity. Life is short, but eternity is endless. {ST, November 21, 1892 par. 4}

Young men and young women need more of the grace of Christ, in order that they may bring the principles of Christianity into their daily life. The grace and righteousness of Christ are offered as a free gift; the subject of justification by faith is to be studied and put into practice. Let us all realize that young and old, if they would behold the glory of Christ, must go into the cleft of the Rock. If we would become Christians, we cannot retain our natural habits, and hold fast to the weakness of our character that dishonors our Saviour. We can find no excuse in the plea that this or that sin is the result of "my way." {YI, September 14, 1893 par. 2}

1) He who abides in Christ, and has Christ abiding in his heart by faith, cannot retain the same unlovely traits of character as were made manifest in his life before he had a connection with Christ.

2) If there is not a moral transformation in the human heart, if old habits and practices and the former life of sin are not left behind, if the attributes of Satan are not expelled from the soul, the wheat crop will be choked.

3) Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character.

4) The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited.

5) The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ.

6) When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.

7) All righteous attributes of character dwell in God as a perfect, harmonious whole, and every one who receives Christ as a personal Saviour is privileged to possess these attributes.

8) When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing.

9) We are endowed with traits of character that enable us to do service for God.

10) We cannot retain self and yet be filled with the fullness of God. We must be emptied of self. If heaven is gained by us at last, it will be only through the renunciation of self, and the receiving of the mind of Christ. Pride and self-sufficiency must be crucified, and the vacuum supplied with the Spirit and power of God.

11) If we would become Christians, we cannot retain our natural habits, and hold fast to the weakness of our character that dishonors our Saviour.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167809
08/30/14 07:42 AM
08/30/14 07:42 AM
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Josh M  Offline
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Let's take Peter as an example.

When Jesus asked the disciples who other people said He was they answered various things, but when asked who they thought He was Peter boldly answered "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matt 16:16)

Later, after the rich young ruler had turned away because of his unwillingness to leave his riches for Jesus, Peter said to Jesus "Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed Thee; what shall we have therefore?" (Matt 19:27) Jesus then confirmed this as so in His response, saying "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed Me..." (Matt 19:28) before describing their reward.

It seems plain that Peter loved and believed in Jesus; openly confessing Him as the Christ and literally following Him in a way that many very comfortable Christians today would shrink from the same as the young ruler did. Peter was a Christian.

Peter, like the rest of the disciples, was also a work in progress by "Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (Heb 12:2). Peter had far too much confidence in himself, even to the point of refuting Jesus directly when Jesus said "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night" and Peter insisted "Although all shall be offended, yet will not I." Jesus then told Peter that he specifically would deny Him, but again Peter insisted "the more vehemently, If I should die with Thee, I will not deny Thee in any wise..." (Mark 14:27-31)

When it came time for this denial, Ellen White said "If he had been called to fight for his Master, he would have been a courageous soldier; but when the finger of scorn was pointed at him, he proved himself a coward." (DA 712) "Peter had just declared that he knew not Jesus, but he now realized with bitter grief how well his Lord knew him, and how accurately He had read his heart, the falseness of which was unknown even to himself." (DA 713)

Was this the end for Peter? Jesus Himself had assured Peter while warning him of the impending denial, saying "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." (Luke 22:31, 32)

Though Peter stumbled over his own self confidence and his own feeble strength in that judgement hall, we see a sharp change in him a short time later. Standing in front of the same Annas and Caiaphas as before, this time to explain the healing of the lame man, he, filled with the Holy Spirit, boldly said "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:10-12) Even after threatened Peter, along with John, answered "Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." (Acts 4:19, 20)

This change was the work of God toward the perfection of Christian character. This perfection is not the work of a brief moment. It took Peter three and a half years with Jesus to have his eyes opened to his own weakness. Though confessing Jesus, we may sometimes stumble, fail, be enticed with temptation, rely on our own strength, doubt, surrender only half our heart, etc. None of these are good and any of these may put us on Satan's ground, but we have a pitying Savior who lives to make intercession for us. We cannot afford to delay in searching our own hearts or to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Phl 2:12) "being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phl 1:6)

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167823
08/30/14 04:30 PM
08/30/14 04:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Josh, thank you for sharing thoughts about Peter's experience. When do you think Peter's experience reflected the descriptions in the passages I posted above - 1) Before he began following Jesus, 2) while he followed Jesus during His earthly ministry, 3) immediately after he thrice denied Jesus, 4) immediately after Jesus thrice commanded him to feed the flock, 5) immediately after the Holy Spirit landed on him on the Day of Pentecost, or 6) gradually after the Day of Pentecost?

Quote:
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process. {DA 172.3}

While the wind is itself invisible, it produces effects that are seen and felt. So the work of the Spirit upon the soul will reveal itself in every act of him who has felt its saving power. When the Spirit of God takes possession of the heart, it transforms the life. Sinful thoughts are put away, evil deeds are renounced; love, humility, and peace take the place of anger, envy, and strife. Joy takes the place of sadness, and the countenance reflects the light of heaven. No one sees the hand that lifts the burden, or beholds the light descend from the courts above. The blessing comes when by faith the soul surrenders itself to God. Then that power which no human eye can see creates a new being in the image of God. {DA 173.1}

That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts. {SC 57.2}

It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on? {SC 58.1}

Who has the heart? With whom are our thoughts? Of whom do we love to converse? Who has our warmest affections and our best energies? If we are Christ's, our thoughts are with Him, and our sweetest thoughts are of Him. All we have and are is consecrated to Him. We long to bear His image, breathe His spirit, do His will, and please Him in all things. {SC 58.2}

Those who become new creatures in Christ Jesus will bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. They will no longer fashion themselves according to the former lusts, but by the faith of the Son of God they will follow in His steps, reflect His character, and purify themselves even as He is pure. The things they once hated they now love, and the things they once loved they hate. The proud and self-assertive become meek and lowly in heart. The vain and supercilious become serious and unobtrusive. The drunken become sober, and the profligate pure. The vain customs and fashions of the world are laid aside. Christians will seek not the "outward adorning," but "the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit." 1 Peter 3:3, 4. {SC 58.3}

There is no evidence of genuine repentance unless it works reformation. If he restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, confess his sins, and love God and his fellow men, the sinner may be sure that he has passed from death unto life. {SC 59.1}

Impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ:
1) through meditating upon Him
2) through reading the Scriptures
3) through hearing the word from the living preacher

However, doing these things does not imply the person is converted. These are things people do before they experience conversion. They must also do them to experience conversion. And they must continue to do them after they experience conversion to stay converted.

Before people experience conversion they are able do many things that resemble godliness:
4) an outward correctness of deportment
5) a well-ordered life
6) avoid the appearance of evil
7) perform generous actions

The process of conversion is completed "suddenly" but in reality is the result of a long, patient, protracted process during which the Holy Spirit and the person spent much time earnestly laboring, agonizing, wrestling, and striving. "We are to wrestle, to labor, to strive, to agonize to enter in at the strait gate." {FW 48.1} People who complete the process of converting to obeying and observing everything Jesus commanded and who are actively, aggressively abiding in Jesus, partaking of the divine nature will reflect the descriptions in the passages I posted above.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167833
08/30/14 08:38 PM
08/30/14 08:38 PM
dedication  Offline
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Peter's conversion took place in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he wept bitter tears over His denial of Christ.
It was here where he fully realized that his own strength and righteousness was totally inefficient. It was here where he stopped depending upon self (with all his good intentions) which he now realized would never enable him to stand against the opposition of sin and the threats and ridicule of people.
When Christ reaffirmed Peter as His disciple and commissioned him to "feed" the "sheep and lambs", Peter now went forward, no longer depending in his own power but trusting in the power of God.

It is not the "arriving at perfect obedience" that signifies conversion, but it is rather the letting go of self sufficiency and realizing real obedience is impossible in one's own strength thus throwing out any notion that we have arrived at some "perfect obedience" platform. Conversion is what happened to Peter weeping there in the garden, and finally realizing he needed to totally depend upon God.

It is only upon those who have experienced this conversion upon whom the Holy Spirit can fall. It is only through the Holy Spirit's power and guidance that any will have the power to withstand sin, and obey in the Spirit and be restored into the image of God, (not just an outward compliance with the letter).

Conversion is not the endpoint-- though there is a journey TO conversion as we see in Peter's life prior to Gethsemane, it is also the beginning of a journey of true overcoming and growing through the power of God. It's not the end point. Peter still had hidden sins like prejudice and other things in his life that the Spirit later revealed to him, but now Peter was depending upon God, and overcoming and obeying in His power, not in Peter's power.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167836
08/30/14 10:30 PM
08/30/14 10:30 PM
J
Josh M  Offline
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Posts: 63
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Dedication beat me to some of what I was going to say, such as Peter separating himself from Gentiles because of fearing the Jews years after Pentecost, which was not perfect.

As I understand it, growing in Christ is the same as abiding in Christ, or at least goes hand in hand. Although some take longer than others, there does not need to be a long road just to reach Jesus, where we can finally confess and repent, and thus be washed of sin. Paul said even to the Gentiles in Athens “…though He be not far from every one of us.” (Acts 17:27) The road we walk is staying with Jesus until the end. We are not perfect from the outset on this road, because we originally came to Jesus just as we were with all of our sins unwashed. As long as we stay on the road we’re saved, but if we do not abide and grow in Christ then we risk wandering off the road.

I came across this quote yesterday while doing a search-
“Many an honest, well-meaning person makes no advancement in the Christian life because he does not see the necessity of constantly learning more of Jesus. When first converted, he rejoices that he has taken his position on the Lord’s side. A year later, he bears the same testimony. There is no evidence of spiritual growth; he is still weak as a child.... The first experience of the new convert is happy and joyous; but trials come; the perplexities of life are to be met; sinful traits of character that have not been controlled, strive for the mastery, and too frequently obtain it. Then come a loss of confidence and peace, neglect of prayer and the reading of the Scriptures. For want of the knowledge and experience which they should have, many are overcome by Satan. They do not know how to discern his temptations, or to resist them….” (SD 89)

So a person attempting to abide in Christ without growing will eventually find it too difficult to continue, but this is eventually.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167839
08/31/14 01:11 AM
08/31/14 01:11 AM
G
gordonb1  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

It appears the context is 'A year later'.

So she's calling for a constant increase in discernment.
And faith to grasp God's promises to overcome.
__________________________

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #167842
08/31/14 02:05 AM
08/31/14 02:05 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Peter was reproved for his thoughts and feelings regarding Gentiles. "This vision conveyed to Peter both reproof and instruction." {AA 135.3} He knew better. Later on, Paul rebuked him for dissembling. Peter was not ignorant of his sin. He simply gave in rather than trusting Jesus to overcome.

Peter describes newborn babes. "Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: if so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious." Newborn babes lay aside all malice, all guile, hypocrisies, envies, and all evil speakings.

Of laying aside evil speakings, James goes on to say, "If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." Paul affirms "ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." John describes the 144,000 in similar language - "in their mouth was found no guile".

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