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Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: APL] #167812
08/30/14 02:43 PM
08/30/14 02:43 PM
asygo  Offline
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This looks like another case of unwarranted over-generalization.

Do yo really believe that Christ's inheritance came by the normal mechanisms of heredity? I don't know of anyone else who was conceived by the Holy Spirit. His seems like a special case to my untrained eye.

Perhaps EGW didn't intend her words to be taken to mean that Jesus was born with a selfish heart, an unregenerate nature like ours. Maybe Jesus did not tend toward evil, but recoiled from it. Maybe He tended toward the good, unlike all the other children.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: asygo] #167815
08/30/14 03:14 PM
08/30/14 03:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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. . . and maybe the Bible and the SOP says what it means and means what it says. Jesus possessed a sinful, fallen, defiled, degraded sinful flesh nature. His nature warred against His pure, holy, sinless mind in the same way and for the same reasons it wars against the pure, holy, sinless new man mind of born-again believers.

Having a sinful flesh nature does not count as sin or sinning. Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same as cherishing them or acting them out in thoughts, words, or deeds. No guilt or condemnation is incurred. No one will meet them in judgment. No one will be barred from Heaven because of them.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #167816
08/30/14 03:22 PM
08/30/14 03:22 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
I don't believe that Jesus had "old habits" to battle. Do you?

Old habits are habits people have been cultivating for a long time. Jesus certainly had old habits, habits He started cultivating from birth. They were not, of course, sinful habits. The habits people cultivate during their lifetime have an affect on the children they rear and raise. This affect can be seen and felt through several generations. Although Jesus never cultivated sinful habits, He definitely battled the hereditary affects - just like every other born-again believer.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #167818
08/30/14 03:25 PM
08/30/14 03:25 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: asygo
I don't believe that Jesus had "old habits" to battle. Do you?

Old habits are habits people have been cultivating for a long time. Jesus certainly had old habits, habits He started cultivating from birth. They were not, of course, sinful habits.

And you believe Jesus *battled* these old habits of His?

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Although Jesus never cultivated sinful habits, He definitely battled the hereditary affects - just like every other born-again believer.

Never cultivated -> hereditary We call that Bait and Switch.

Jesus never cultivated sin. Is there anyone else, including the born-again believers you speak of, of whom can be said the same thing truthfully?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #167819
08/30/14 03:34 PM
08/30/14 03:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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No, Jesus did not battle the habits He cultivated.

There is nothing bait and switch about believing Jesus was born with fallen human tendencies, inclinations, propensities or that He was affected and influenced by the hereditary traits and habits cultivated and passed on by His mother and ancestors.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #167820
08/30/14 03:37 PM
08/30/14 03:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Is there anyone else, including the born-again believers you speak of, of whom can be said the same thing truthfully?

"All have sinned." So, no, no one can claim to have never sinned. Only Jesus never sinned.

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #167835
08/30/14 09:50 PM
08/30/14 09:50 PM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
. . . and maybe the Bible and the SOP says what it means and means what it says. Jesus possessed a sinful, fallen, defiled, degraded sinful flesh nature. His nature warred against His pure, holy, sinless mind in the same way and for the same reasons it wars against the pure, holy, sinless new man mind of born-again believers.

Having a sinful flesh nature does not count as sin or sinning. Having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is not the same as cherishing them or acting them out in thoughts, words, or deeds. No guilt or condemnation is incurred. No one will meet them in judgment. No one will be barred from Heaven because of them.


Quoting:
Be careful, exceedingly careful as to how you dwell upon the human nature of Christ. Do not set Him before the people as a man with the propensities of sin. He is the second Adam. The first Adam was created a pure, sinless being, without a taint of sin upon him; he was in the image of God. He could fall, and he did fall through transgressing. Because of sin his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity. He was assailed with temptations in the wilderness, as Adam was assailed with temptations in Eden. {5BC 1128.4}

Bro. _____, avoid every question in relation to the humanity of Christ which is liable to be misunderstood. Truth lies close to the track of presumption. In treating upon the humanity of Christ, you need to guard strenuously every assertion, lest your words be taken to mean more than they imply, and thus you lose or dim the clear perceptions of His humanity as combined with divinity. His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, "Behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: ... The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy [Being] which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." {5BC 1128.5}

These words do not refer to any human being, except to the Son of the infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to, corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called "that holy thing." It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that
1129
Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves; for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the Rock Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {5BC 1128.6}

I perceive that there is danger in approaching subjects which dwell on the humanity of the Son of the infinite God. He did humble Himself when He saw He was in fashion as a man, that He might understand the force of all temptations wherewith man is beset. {5BC 1129.1}

The first Adam fell; the second Adam held fast to God and His Word under the most trying circumstances, and His faith in His Father's goodness, mercy, and love did not waver for one moment. "It is written" was His weapon of resistance, and it is the sword of the Spirit which every human being is to use. "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me"--nothing to respond to temptation. On not one occasion was there a response to his manifold temptations. Not once did Christ step on Satan's ground, to give him any advantage. Satan found nothing in Him to encourage his advances (Letter 8, 1895). {5BC 1129.2}

(Matthew 27:54; 1 Timothy 3:16.) But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. The human did not take the place of the divine, nor the divine of the human. This is the mystery of godliness. The two expressions "human" and "divine" were, in Christ, closely and inseparably one, and yet they had a distinct individuality. Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own. His deity could not be lost while He stood faithful and true to His loyalty. Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven. He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done. {5BC 1129.3}


When Christ's indwelling glory flashed forth, it was too intense for His pure and perfect humanity entirely to conceal. The scribes and Pharisees did not speak in acknowledgment of Him, but their enmity and hatred were baffled as His majesty shone forth. The truth, obscured as it was by a veil of humiliation, spoke to every heart with unmistakable evidence. This led to the words of Christ, "Ye know who I am." Men and devils were compelled, by the shining forth of His glory, to confess, "Truly, this is the Son of God." Thus God was revealed; thus Christ was glorified (ST May 10, 1899). {5BC 1129.5}

Christ left His position in the heavenly courts, and came to this earth to live the life of human beings. This sacrifice He made in order to show that Satan's charge against God is false--that it is possible for man to obey the laws of God's kingdom. Equal with the Father, honored and adored by the angels, in our behalf Christ humbled Himself, and came to this earth to live a life of lowliness and poverty--to be a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. Yet the stamp of divinity was upon His humanity. He came as a divine Teacher, to uplift human beings, to increase their physical, mental, and spiritual efficiency. {5BC 1129.6}

There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. {5BC 1129.7}

In every possible way Satan sought to prevent Jesus from developing a perfect childhood, a faultless manhood, a holy ministry, and an unblemished sacrifice. But he was defeated. He could not lead Jesus into sin. He could not discourage Him, or drive Him from the work He had come to this earth to do. From the desert to Calvary the storm of Satan's wrath beat upon Him, but the more mercilessly it fell, the more firmly did the Son of God cling to the hand of His Father, and press on in the blood-stained path (MS 140, 1903). {5BC 1130.1}

Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #167841
08/31/14 01:41 AM
08/31/14 01:41 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Dedication, as you know, Jesus' spiritual nature was, like a born again believer, free of evil tendencies, inclinations, propensities. However, Jesus, like a born again believer, also fought the greatest battle ever fought. Resisting the unholy clamorings (lusts, affections) of sinful flesh is a battle all believers must fight. So did Jesus. His success motivates their willingness to fight the good fight of faith.

Quote:
As our first parents lost Eden through the indulgence of appetite, our only hope of regaining Eden is through the firm denial of appetite and passion. Abstemiousness in diet, and control of all the passions, will preserve the intellect so that men may have mental and moral vigor to bring all their propensities under the control of the higher power, and to retain clearness of intellect to discern between right and wrong, between sacred and common things. {HR, August 1, 1875 par. 16}

In his prayer to the Father, Christ said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." We must learn of Christ. We must know what he is to those he has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. Christ is the sin-bearer; John pointed the people to him, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." And Paul declared. "You hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, . . . and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

Christ says to us, "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." We are ever to learn of Christ. Yoked up with him in perfect restraint, we are to be learners during our whole lifetime. Then we are indeed "laborers together with God." We can be acceptable teachers only as we learn Christ's meekness and lowliness. Constantly we must learn more and more regarding these attributes. As we partake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good. Ever learning of the divine Teacher, daily partaking of his nature, we co-operate with God in overcoming Satan's temptations. God works, and man works, that man may be one with Christ as Christ is one with God. Then we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. The mind rests with peace and assurance in Jesus. The Saviour declares, "He that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." In him there is inexhaustible fullness. As we follow on to know the Lord, we shall lead souls to the living word. With us they will know that his going forth is prepared as the morning. {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 7}


Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #167875
09/02/14 05:38 AM
09/02/14 05:38 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
No, Jesus did not battle the habits He cultivated.

Each day he must renew his consecration, each day do battle with evil. Old habits, hereditary tendencies to wrong, will strive for the mastery, and against these he is to be ever on guard, striving in Christ's strength for victory. {AA 476.3}

Given that, it is clear that though Jesus battled evil, it was not "just like a born-again believer" since such a one battles his old habits.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Jesus denied self just like a born-again believer. [Re: Mountain Man] #167876
09/02/14 05:45 AM
09/02/14 05:45 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
There is nothing bait and switch about believing Jesus was born with fallen human tendencies, inclinations, propensities ...

It is when that was not the point on contention. If you think you did not switch contexts, that goes a long way toward explaining the confusion.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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