The point is you are accusing God of being culpable because He can stop murders and rape and does not.

You believe Jesus causes evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children. You also believe He uses force and coercion to get His way. I'm okay with free will. You do not have a problem with force and coercion.

APL, you are avoiding the point. You believe Jesus pedmits it. You believe He can prevent it without violating freewill.

Kland, you cannot support your absurd accusations. Otherwise you would have quoted me. You, on the other hand, truly believe Jesus permits it. Somehow you think it makes Jesus look good. But I can assure you it does not. Unbelievers despise the idea.

I have a friend who stabs people in the neck while his accomplices watch him do it, and even help him. The one being stabbed usually submits willingly to this. They trust my friend and believe him when he says it will all be ok in the end.

Yes, my friend is "culpable" for stabbing people. It's just that some people trust him while others don't.

I don't know what you are referring to as absurd. If you are referring to:
"You believe Jesus causes evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children."

then if we were to take a vote here asking if others know you have said that Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction, what do you think the results would be?

If we were to do a search where you have said Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction, how many hits do you think it would come up with?

How does saying Jesus causes disease, death, and destruction make Him look good? Why do you think giving people freedom of will does not?

Kland, you did not support your absurd accusation.

Neither have you addressed my observations concerning your belief Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to murder innocent women and children.

MM - have you read the book of Job?

I see the word "absurd" thrown about in the posts above. Maybe it's a good word for this thread as the discussion only gets more "absurd" as two poles refuse to see the whole.

Yes, God gives mankind freedom to choose to follow Him, or follow Satan,
Yes, sin and satan have caused death, misery, violence, and pain to reign in this world. This earth is the showcase of what sin and satan does.

Yes, God at times withdraws His protecting spirit from people who reject Him.
Just remember that it is God Who sustains life and all things, if He withdraws completely death is absolutely certain.
It is ONLY due to God's sustaining power that we have life and the relative good things we enjoy.

Yes, God sustains life and offers protection from the full evil of sin and satan, but also allows the results of sin and satan's evil proposes to bring trials even to people who accept God.

Yes, God will render justice, for we are told to love and try to win even our enemies and to leave vengeance to Him He will repay and deliver His people in the end.
Yes, there have been times when God stepped in to deliver His people from their enemies, by removing HIS gift of life from those enemies.

There is a day of justice coming when everyone receives their "reward" from God, those who accepted life and righteousness from God will be rewarded with eternal life.
Those who rejected that gift of life and chose evil will be rewarded with eternal death.

Yes, everyone will understand before that takes place that there is no life or happiness apart from God -- that sin only brings death and misery. That choosing sin, is choosing death, because God's law is not some arbitrary law restricting happiness, but is the very foundation of peace and happiness and joyous life.

The concept that sin brings disease, misery, pain, and death is correct.
But let's not mix that up with some idea that sinners have any life of their own within themselves that God has no right to take away from them.
Every breath is a gift from God. Every heartbeat is a gift from God. All God needs to do is remove His sustaining power and death is certain.
If God choses for life to continue, it will continue no matter what any created being does.




When I read the arguments in this thread, I better understand why God, in the old testament took responsibility for the good and bad that came upon His people. It avoided such strange arguments as we see on these threads, and basically, in the end, He is in control.

It avoided the rationalizing that satan works with God. Like the concept that satan opened the earth under Korah, Dathan and company to stop the rebellion that he started. Or satan concocting the plagues that fell on the Egyptians to free Israel from slavery that he wanted to keep them in. Or that Satan pushed down the walls of Jericho so Israel could conquer the city for God.

You can be sure that satan wanted the Korah rebellion to continue -- not to stop it. You can be sure satan wanted the Israelites to remain slaves in Egypt, he was on Pharoah's side not working against Pharoah and for Israel. You can be sure satan wanted his pagans to keep Canaan, not have God's people inhabit that land.

God obviously wanted His people to realize that He was in control, and in no way working with satan, and that when prophets came telling them God was sending punishments upon them it was punishment from God, whether He simple removed His protection and allowed foreign nations to harass or conquer them, or actively withheld the rain for three years.