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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17050
02/20/06 10:56 PM
02/20/06 10:56 PM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
In order to be candidates for heaven we must meet the requirement of the law: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself" (Luke 10:27). We can do this only as we grasp by faith the righteousness of Christ.
By beholding Jesus we receive a living, expanding principle in the heart, and the Holy Spirit carries on the work, and the believer advances from grace to grace, from strength to strength, from character to character. He conforms to the image of Christ, until in spiritual growth he attains unto the measure of the full stature in Christ Jesus. Thus Christ makes an end of the curse of sin, and sets the believing soul free from its action and effect. (1SM 394 - Emphasis mine)
By hunting and pecking around, I'm sure I could find many quotes like this. Justification by faith is a heart work. With the heart man believeth unto righteousness (Romans 10:10)
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17051
02/21/06 01:49 AM
02/21/06 01:49 AM
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Actually, Tom, I have been saying all along that justification accommodates sins confessed, forsaken, and pardoned, and that it accommodates sins of ignorance. Jesus made pardon possible on the cross and He makes it available to us in the holy place in the heavenly sanctuary.
I agree that what Jesus does for us in heaven symbolizes what He is does for us here on earth, but justification is not the means by which God empowers us to overcome past, known sins or sins of ignorance.
Justification accommodates forgiveness, it does not empower us to overcome past, present, or future sins. Sanctification is a lifelong process of advancing from one stage of perfection to another. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting.
Jesus cannot pardon us until we have confessed and crucified our sins. He doesn't justify us a little at a time as we gradually outgrow known and revealed sins. Jesus cannot justify us until we confess and forsake our old man habits of sin, until we fully surrender ourselves to Him, until we are completely dead to sin and totally awake to righteousness.
The only types of sins that remain to be revealed and confessed and crucified after non-SDAs are baptized are sins of ignorance. But in the cases of properly prepared SDAs, sins of ignorance are non-existent. No properly prepared SDA will discover after they are baptized that dressing immodestly or that eating bloody beef burgers, for example, are sins.
Jesus does not wait until after we are born again, until after we become church members to make us aware of biblical standards and doctrines that govern the lifestyle of born again SDA believers. That would be perceived as underhanded and dishonest.
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17052
02/21/06 04:39 AM
02/21/06 04:39 AM
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Active Member 2012
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MM:Actually, Tom, I have been saying all along that justification accommodates sins confessed, forsaken, and pardoned, and that it accommodates sins of ignorance. I'm having a difficult time understanding you. "Accommodate" is an odd choice of words. Do you "accommodate" as in "make allowance for"? That's my guess, given that you say justification accommodates sins of ignorance. But justification has nothing to do with accommodation, at least not in this sense. If you mean the definition from the Latin, as in "to make fit" or "to make suitable," that's more possible, but there's still the problem that justification and pardon are one and the same, so to say that justification accomodates pardon is to say that justification accomodates justification. So I don't know what you're saying.MM:Jesus made pardon possible on the cross and He makes it available to us in the holy place in the heavenly sanctuary. This is true. Pardon is made possible by a revelation of God's character, and Christ both did this on the cross and continues to do so now. The whole purpose of His ministry is to reveal God to us, in order to set us right (justify us) with God. The following quote beautifully describes the process: quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
I agree that what Jesus does for us in heaven symbolizes what He is does for us here on earth, but justification is not the means by which God empowers us to overcome past, known sins or sins of ignorance.
Yes it is. Read the quote above. That is describing being born again, which is justification by faith. Note how it says, "The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Justification is the means by which God empowers us to overcome sin, all sin. Pardon involves overcoming sin.
MM:Justification accommodates forgiveness, it does not empower us to overcome past, present, or future sins.
What do you mean by "accomodates." Do you mean "to provide with something desired, needed or suited"? I'm looking at all the definitions, but am having difficulty finding one which fits.
Justification by faith is the same thing as conversion, being born again, the New Covenant, being pardoned, or being reconciled. All of these are describing the same thing, which is the work of God to change the heart and mind of the believer, bringing him in harmony with Himself and His law. The quote involving Nicodemus describes justification by faith very well. "The Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ." This is very much empowering us to overcome sin. This is the *only* way we can be empowered to overcome sin. Only the love of God streaming from the cross which reveals His character can empower us to overcome sin. The cross is the only way.
Sanctification is a lifelong process of advancing from one stage of perfection to another. It has nothing to do with sinning and repenting.
Sanctification is simply justification by faith continued throughout the life. It has everything do to with repentance, although it, of course, has nothing to do with sinning. Consider the following quote:
quote:
At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen.
Jesus cannot pardon us until we have confessed and crucified our sins.
It sounds like you are viewing this as some sort of deal. We cannot crucify our sins of ourselves. This is the work of Christ. It is justification by faith which results in our sins being crucified. When we see the love of God revealed on the cross, that does the trick, if we do not resist the Spirit. Look closely at the Nicodemus quote. That explains it nicely. Perhaps I can find some more quotes.
Here's a good one:
quote:
The cross of Calvary challenges, and will finally vanquish every earthly and hellish power. In the cross all influence centres, and from it all influence goes forth. It is the great centre of attraction; for on it Christ gave up His life for the human race. This sacrifice was offered for the purpose of restoring man to his original perfection. Yea, more, it was offered to give him an entire transformation of character, making him more than a conqueror.
Those who in the strength of Christ overcome the great enemy of God and man, will occupy a position in the heavenly courts above angels who have never fallen.
Christ declares, 'I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me.' If the cross does not find an influence in its favor, it creates an influence. Through generation succeeding generation, the truth for this time is revealed as present truth. Christ on the cross was the medium whereby mercy and truth met together, and righteousness and peace kissed each other. This is the means that is to move the world." The SDA Bible Commentary, 5:1113.
Note that the cross is center of all influence, and that it vanquishes every hellish power. Why? Because it is on the cross that truth is fully seen. When one looks at the cross and sees, one is one the road to becoming an overcomer. This is justification by faith.
MM, one thing to keep in mind is whatever theory you come up with regarding overcoming sin must involve the cross front and center.
He doesn't justify us a little at a time as we gradually outgrow known and revealed sins.
That's right, he justifies us all at a time, transforming us into His children and friends. He transforms our hearts and minds. He makes us new creatures in Christ.
Jesus cannot justify us until we confess and forsake our old man habits of sin, until we fully surrender ourselves to Him, until we are completely dead to sin and totally awake to righteousness.
I'm not sure what "awake to righteousness" means. The means of justification is that which is shown in the Nicodemus quote. God reveals His love through Christ, through the cross. That love draws the sinner. If the sinner does not resist, he is led to the foot of the cross in repentance. A new life is created in the soul. The law is written in the heart and mind. The whole being is brought into conformity to Christ. This is justification by faith.
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17053
02/21/06 01:15 PM
02/21/06 01:15 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,163
Muncie, IN
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If we had to wait for you guys to get it straight no one would be saved. Whew!
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17054
02/21/06 02:37 PM
02/21/06 02:37 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)
Pretty easy, Darius! Just don't resist the drawing of the cross.
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17055
02/21/06 06:12 PM
02/21/06 06:12 PM
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, I’m using the word “accommodates” in the sense that justification is where pardoned sins and sins of ignorance reside. I do not agree that pardon is the source that empowers us to resist repeating our pardoned sins. True, the fact Jesus was merciful enough to pardon our past sins motivates us to trust Him to empower us to resist repeating them, but Jesus, not pardon itself, is our source of power.
Jesus, not knowledge about Him or what He does, is the source of our power to resist reverting back to our former sins. Regarding sins of ignorance, there is no source of power for resisting committing sins of ignorance, at least, not until after we become aware of them, at which point they are no longer sins of ignorance. As such, sins of ignorance are sins that Jesus covers with His righteousness in heaven. It cannot happen in our heart and mind, too.
I agree with you that our repentance, as it relates to past sins pardoned, deepens as our relationship with Jesus matures. I feel way more sorrow and sadness for my past pardoned sins now than I did last year, or even last week. And, yes, this is part of the process of sanctification. However, I do not associate it with justification. I make a distinction between justification and sanctification. I do not view them as one and the same thing.
I agree that sin loses all its power and appeal at the cross. I’m sorry you didn’t know I firmly believe this central truth. I also believe it motivates us to trust Jesus to empower us to resist giving in when tempted to repeat our former sins. I do not believe, however, that knowing information about the cross is the source of my power to resist temptations. Jesus, not knowledge about Him or the cross, is our source of power to resist temptations.
I agree that we are born again justified and sanctified. But I also believe we are born again without our former defective traits of character. I do not believe we gradually outgrow our known sins after we are born again. Nor do I believe post-baptismal sins of ignorance include sins that are obvious to even unbelievers, sins like impatience, lying, stealing, or being rude, crude, or otherwise unlovely.
People who have been properly prepared for baptism into the SDA faith are not ignorant of the truth. Those members who are ignorant of the truth were baptized prematurely, and may or may not be truly born again. If they are living up to all the light that they are aware of then they are truly converted. But it is difficult to imagine someone being a baptized SDA and not realizing that working unnecessarily on the Sabbath, for example, is a sin.
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17056
02/22/06 03:43 AM
02/22/06 03:43 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Tom, I’m using the word “accommodates” in the sense that justification is where pardoned sins and sins of ignorance reside.
That didn't help much. That's not what "accomodate" means, and sins do not "reside" in justification. I don't know what that means either. Justification by faith and pardon of sin are one in the same, so what you're saying would be tantamount to saying that justification is where justification resides
I do not agree that pardon is the source that empowers us to resist repeating our pardoned sins.
Try this. Justification by faith is one in the thing as pardon, correct? And what is justification by faith? To be set right by faith, because "justify" means to set right. So pardon sin sets us right. We cannot be set right without being brought into harmony with God's law. Therefore pardon brings us into harmony with God's law. Therefore it must bring us victory over sin.
I'd suggest reading "The Glad Tidings" or "Christ and His Righteousness". There are so many ways to show that justification by faith brings victory over sin, and Waggoner presents many different arguments to show this. Perhaps I'll share a few a bit later. Anyway, the Desire of Ages quote brings out this very point. Note from that quote (the Nicodemus one) that it is when one repents and receives forgiveness that one is brought into harmony with God's law, and every thought brought captive to the obedience of Christ. So it is clear, as clear as can be, that pardon brings victory of sin.
True, the fact Jesus was merciful enough to pardon our past sins motivates us to trust Him to empower us to resist repeating them, but Jesus, not pardon itself, is our source of power.
Christ is the source of power exactly by justifying, or pardoning us.
Jesus, not knowledge about Him or what He does, is the source of our power to resist reverting back to our former sins.
The way Christ provides victory is by way of our minds. There is no power apart from our choosing to follow Christ, which we cannot and will not do apart from knowledge about Him and what He does. Christ said that to know God, and Jesus Christ whom He sent, is life eternal. Of course our power over sin comes from knowing Christ. How could it be otherwise? In what way to you think Christ provides power? It is by His enlightening of our minds that He provides us power to overcome.
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17057
02/22/06 03:51 AM
02/22/06 03:51 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Regarding sins of ignorance, there is no source of power for resisting committing sins of ignorance, at least, not until after we become aware of them, at which point they are no longer sins of ignorance.
I don't know what point you're trying to make. Of course there is a source of power for resisting sins of ignorance. Even though we may not know a certain thing is a sin, God knows, and if it is our desire to follow Him, He can gives us power to resist whatever sin. If we are willing to do His will, then it is completely up to God, and if He chooses, He can certainly do so (i.e., give us power to resist whatever sin)
As such, sins of ignorance are sins that Jesus covers with His righteousness in heaven. It cannot happen in our heart and mind, too.
I don't know what this means. There's no problem in heaven. There are no sins of ignorance to cover in heaven. I don't know what you mean that it cannot happen in our heart and mind too. What cannot happen?
I agree with you that our repentance, as it relates to past sins pardoned, deepens as our relationship with Jesus matures. I feel way more sorrow and sadness for my past pardoned sins now than I did last year, or even last week.
What about your present pardoned sins?
And, yes, this is part of the process of sanctification. However, I do not associate it with justification. I make a distinction between justification and sanctification. I do not view them as one and the same thing.
Sanctification is just justification continued throughout the life. Both come through faith alone in Jesus Christ. The only way of salvation, whatever word you want to use, is to respond to God's call to mercy by repentance and submitting to His will. As a momentary thing, at whatever stage in one's life, this is justification. As a continuing process, it is sanctification.
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17058
02/22/06 04:05 AM
02/22/06 04:05 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I agree that sin loses all its power and appeal at the cross. I’m sorry you didn’t know I firmly believe this central truth. You don't speak of it much. It doesn't find its way into many of your comments. (not enough of mine either). The Spirit of Prophecy tells us that no truth can be understood apart from the cross. Yet I don't think you've mentioned it once in all of our conversations about God destroying sin even thought we've had hundreds of posts about this subject.I also believe it motivates us to trust Jesus to empower us to resist giving in when tempted to repeat our former sins. I do not believe, however, that knowing information about the cross is the source of my power to resist temptations. Jesus, not knowledge about Him or the cross, is our source of power to resist temptations. The very way that Jesus is a source of power is through the cross! The cross is the power of God. That's Paul, in several places. It's Ellen White as well: quote:
The cross of Calvary challenges, and will finally vanquish every earthly and hellish power. In the cross all influence centres, and from it all influence goes forth.(5BC 1113)
I'd be curious to know just how you think it is that Jesus gives us power apart from the cross.
I agree that we are born again justified and sanctified.
Being born again is no different than being justified. They are two different ways of saying the same thing. It's like saying "we are justified justified." Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. Being born again is the beginning of the process. You could say in a sense that one is sanctified when one is justified, since "sanctified" means "set apart for holy use" and justification certainly accomplishes that.
People who have been properly prepared for baptism into the SDA faith are not ignorant of the truth. Those members who are ignorant of the truth were baptized prematurely, and may or may not be truly born again. If they are living up to all the light that they are aware of then they are truly converted. But it is difficult to imagine someone being a baptized SDA and not realizing that working unnecessarily on the Sabbath, for example, is a sin.
Yes, but there are other things they might do on the Sabbath and not see as sin when they are baptized which later on in their experience they might.
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Re: New Testament Righteousness by Faith, dealing with the Contradictions
#17059
02/22/06 05:19 AM
02/22/06 05:19 AM
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Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
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Before commenting on both your points, Folkenberg's own points are pretty good, but nothing new to SDA's who have found 1888 to be a most precious message, which point Folkenberg affirms.
Jesus saves us for 'church practice' and a Christian lifestyle, which are enabled by the recreated spiritual experience his Spirit establishes by grace through faith: "the experience of justification" (the GC's definition of righteousness by faith at Palmdale in 1976, when sorting out its meaning with the Australian Brethern).
Now, Tom, your emphasis on God's revelation of love in Jesus being what converts us, epitomised by the cross, leaves the small question for you: is motivation for a converted lifestyle merely the realisation of the fact that God is love, or the historic fact that Jesus died our death because of agape? You sound like one supporting the moral influence theory, but I don't believe you do support it. If MM neglects to emphasise [your] point of love's brilliance in the cross of Christ, you neglect to emphasise that Jesus death saves us from our deserved death, not just from our own confusion about God being love.
As for justification not being empowerment while being pardon, sanctification as imparted righteousness is incompatible with the believing sinner's unregenerated sinful mind, since imputed righteousness only involves pardon of the past, but no renewed mind for the present, and sanctification cannot produce a renewed mind - it only supplies the contents for such a mind. Unless imputed righteousness includes empowerment by experiential justification of the believer with 'instalment' of the mind of Christ - i.e. submission to the Holy Spirit, not even God is powerful enough to change the character with imparted righteousness...there being no compatible change of heart.
Justification is an experience of righteousness: renewed mind; therefore, imparted righteous supplies the 'meat' of the sanctified life, but only because our spiritual faculties are regenerated, which is the experience of justification. Exercising that regenerated faculty is exercising justification - ie. the mind made righteous: sanctification is that exercise's description.
Waggoner wrote something like being made righteous in justification is being made totally perfect in that moment, and constant faith thereafter may maintain that perfection in practical terms, but fleeting unbelief frustrates that growth in grace. That growth changes the character according to the renewed, righteous mind, but the utmost God himself can do for us is to justify, or make right, our minds.
Sanctification is not 'separate' from justification, but is the descriptive appearance of justification in action; 'distinguishing' them only shows that justification is truly an experience of righteous renewal and regeneration that qualifies believers for heaven, while adapting one's life to that regeneration with the sanctified life is just permeating one's character with the righteousness of regeneration.
Imputed righteousness transforms the mind; imparted righteousness transforms the character.
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