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Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #171398
01/19/15 08:52 AM
01/19/15 08:52 AM
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I guess it is rather pointless only because most don't care to study things out for themselves and only see an argument over commas when in actuality it was seeking understanding as to who said what.

Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: dedication] #171399
01/19/15 09:11 AM
01/19/15 09:11 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The point of the quotation marks -- the KJV has no quotation marks, the original has no quotation marks. Quotations, if assigned are marked as to the actual grammatical wording.

The only way to determine who says what is to carefully look for the grammatical "VOICE" in the passage.


Basic English grammar confirms that VERSES 3-5 are all in the "WE/US" voice showing it is the people speaking.

Isaiah 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

2:6 Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and [are] soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.

Please notice
It is the people talking

They keep saying "LET US" "WE WILL" showing it is still the people talking all through verse 3-5.

They refer to God as "he".

They refer to their enemies as "they" and believe God will rebuke them (other nations) and cause "them" that is their enemies, to beat their swords into plowshares.

This is not God speaking, this is the people speaking.
The grammar confirms it.

So yes it is the people saying everything in those verses.

These people THINK they are building God's kingdom.


In verse 6 there is a change in "voice".
It is no more the "US" and "WE" voice.

Now Isaiah is speaking
saying
Therefore "Thou" referring to God
hast forsaken "them"
referring to the people who were talking in verses 3-5.

Why has God forsaken them.

Because they be replenished from east (false religious ideas??) southsayers (false prophets???)

Now notice -- these many people say --

"nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

They are saying the nations will not learn war any more.

BUT scripture shows something very different for at Christ's second coming:
Rev. 19:19 the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse,


This passage (as well as it's equivalent in Micah 4) tell us that there will be a counterfeit kingdom gathering in the "mount of the Lord" just before Christ comes, but it does not go well with them as the rest of the chapter depicts.



Sermon by E.J.Waggonner

Now look at a Bible picture of national religion, and its consequences. We quote from Isa. 2:2-5:-

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."


This is the result toward which those look who shout, "The world for Christ." Mark, the scripture does not say that people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that "many people shall go and say" that certain things shall take place. That this national Christianity will be only a sham, an outside show, and not real service to God, is indicated by the next four verses, which say:-


"Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots; their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made; and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself; therefore forgive them not."


These verses show that while they profess that they know God, in works they deny him. They will be worshiping something of their own creation. .. And what will be the final result? The prophet continues:-

"Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

"And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he arised to shake terribly the earth. In the day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefs of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake the terrible the earth." Isa. 2:10-12, 19-21.

In that day of the Lord the earth shall be melted (2 Peter 3:10, 11; Isa. 24:19, 20), and sinners shall be destroyed out of it; "nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 2:13. {September 14, 1888 EJW, SITI }

Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: dedication] #171400
01/19/15 09:27 AM
01/19/15 09:27 AM
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EXAMINATION OF ISAIAH 2, AND MICAH 4

From the Adventist Review and Herald May 16,1864:

"WE are told - "The end of the world cannot come yet, for that glorious prophecy has not been accomplished which says: "They shall beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning hooks;" etc....

The prophet proceeds to tell us what "many people" will "say," ... Verses 3-5. "And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."

Many persons have mistaken this language, as I think. It is not a prophecy of what shall be, but of what "many people" will do, and say.

This prophecy, of what the people would say, is exactly fulfilled before our eyes. It is the very language of "many people" in these days; which shows that we are "in the last days." The prophecy of a "temporal millennium," or thousand years spiritual, peaceful and universal reign of Christ, or rather of the church on earth, previous to the personal appearing of Christ in the clouds of heaven, exactly agrees with the boasts of an exalted church at this time.

Let us now inquire, Did the many people speak the truth? or, did they prophesy out of their own hearts?

I think the latter. And to this state of an exalted church, and to what they would say about peace and security, for a thousand years, I think Paul clearly refers in 1Thess.v,3. "When they shall say peace and safety; [the very thing that Isaiah and Micah tells us the "many people" will "say" in the "last days;] then sudden destruction cometh upon them, and they shall not escape."

An awful warning this, to those who are saying nations are going to beat their swords into plow-shares, and their spears into pruning hooks, and not lift up sword against each other any more, but all are to sit under their own vine - having none to molest them or make them afraid.

{May 16, 1854 James White editor, Adventist Review sabbath Herald}



Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #171417
01/20/15 03:53 PM
01/20/15 03:53 PM
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dedication, you may also want to read the commentary on under "Learn war any more" for verse 4 regarding attempts to disprove unscriptural teachings.

Quote:
"And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." Micah 4:2. {CT 455.1}
The Old Testament Scriptures were the lesson book of Israel.... There are practical lessons in the word of God, lessons that Christ would have teachers and parents present to the children in the school and in the home. That word teaches living, holy principles, which prompt men to do unto others as they would have others do unto them--principles which they are to bring into the daily life here below, and carry with them into the school above. This is the higher education. No learning of human origin can gain these heights; for they reach into eternity, and are immortalized. We know altogether too little of the greatness of the love and compassion of God. {CT 455.2}

Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #171419
01/20/15 04:45 PM
01/20/15 04:45 PM
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The quote refers to the principles of heaven and the New Earth, where God's law is fully established, with its resultant peace. These principles need to be implanted in the lives of God's people today. To the extent people are transformed by the principles of heaven, it brings a heavenly atmosphere into their homes and communities.

That was the promise for national Israel, had Israel as a nation accepted God's covenant.

"The many" whose words are being quoted in the Biblical verse, do understand something of what these principles are. Thus they think by going to Old Jerusalem they will achieve it -- but the chapters (both Isaiah 11 and Micah 4) shows that will fail.

Why? Because it's not in Old Jerusalem that it will be achieved.

The principles of God's law are to be lived out in the lives of God's people where ever they are, and thus the Holy Spirit transforms their characters and fits them for the heavenly kingdom --
It is not till we reach that heavenly kingdom that these principles will be universal.

A fuller context of the quote below:

Quote:
"And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." Micah 4:2. {CT 455.1}
The Old Testament Scriptures were the lesson book of Israel.... There are practical lessons in the word of God, lessons that Christ would have teachers and parents present to the children in the school and in the home. That word teaches living, holy principles, which prompt men to do unto others as they would have others do unto them--principles which they are to bring into the daily life here below, and carry with them into the school above. This is the higher education. No learning of human origin can gain these heights; for they reach into eternity, and are immortalized. We know altogether too little of the greatness of the love and compassion of God. {CT 455.2}
Let students put to the stretch their mental faculties, that they may comprehend the forty-fifth chapter of Isaiah. Such chapters as this should be brought into our schools as a valuable study. They are better than romance and fables. Why have our schools been so dependent upon books which tell so little of the city we claim to be seeking, whose builder and maker is God? Our lesson books should contain the loftiest themes of thought. Heaven is our home. Our citizenship is above, and our lives must not be devoted to a world that is soon to be destroyed. {CT 455.3}

Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: dedication] #171434
01/22/15 06:48 AM
01/22/15 06:48 AM
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Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
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Yes, and this article was written by who?

Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #171451
01/23/15 05:09 AM
01/23/15 05:09 AM
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CT (Counsels to Parents and Teachers) was written by EGW

A writer who presents a very different last day scene than those who look to old Jerusalem for their safety.
-----------

"The agencies of evil are combining their forces and consolidating. They are strengthening for the last great crisis. Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones. {CCh 37.2}

Today the world, utterly regardless of the warning voice of God, is hurrying on to eternal ruin. {CCh 38.5}
The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecy of the eleventh chapter of Daniel has nearly reached its complete fulfillment. Soon the scenes of trouble spoken of in the prophecies will take place. {CCh 38.6}
"Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. . . . Because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance,
broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore has the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate. . . . The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth." Isaiah 24:1-8. {CCh 38.7}
"Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come. . . ." Joel 1:15. {CCh 39.1}
"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down." Jeremiah 4:23-26. {CCh 39.2}
"Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." Jeremiah 30:7. {CCh 39.3}

Not all in this world have taken sides with the enemy against God. Not all have become disloyal. There are a faithful few who are true to God; for John writes: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12. Soon the battle will be waged fiercely between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. Soon everything that can be shaken will be shaken, that those things that cannot be shaken may remain. {CCh 39.4}

Satan is a diligent Bible student. He knows that his time is short, and he seeks at every point to counterwork the work of the Lord upon this earth. It is impossible to give any idea of the experience of the people of God who shall be alive upon the earth when celestial glory and a repetition of the persecutions of the past are blended. They will walk in the light proceeding from the throne of God. By means of the angels there will be constant communication between heaven and earth. And Satan, surrounded by evil angels, and claiming to be God, will work miracles of all kinds, to deceive, if possible, the very elect.CCh40


Again and again I am instructed to present to our churches the work that should be done in our large cities....The time is coming when laws will be framed that will close doors now open to the message. We need to arouse to earnest effort now, while the angels of God are waiting to give their wonderful aid to all who will labor to arouse the consciences of men and women regarding righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come.--Manuscript 7, 1908.

The time of trouble, which is to increase until the end, is very near at hand. We have no time to lose. The world is stirred with the spirit of war. The prophecies of the eleventh of Daniel have almost reached their final fulfillment.--RH Nov. 24, 1904.


The world is becoming more and more lawless. Soon great trouble will arise among the nations--trouble that will not cease until Jesus comes.--RH Feb. 11, 1904. {LDE 12.3}

Satan has prepared various snares to meet varied minds. When the law of God is made void the church will be sifted by fiery trials, and a larger proportion than we now anticipate, will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Instead of being strengthened when brought into strait places, many prove that they are not living branches of the True Vine. . . . {Mar 28.3}
But when the world makes void the law of God, what will be the effect upon the truly obedient and righteous? Will they be carried away by the strong current of evil? Because so many rank themselves under the banner of the prince of darkness, will God's commandment-keeping people swerve from their allegiance? Never! Not one who is abiding in Christ will fail or fall. His followers will bow in obedience to a higher authority than that of any earthly potentate.


As men depart further and further from God, Satan is permitted to have power over the children of disobedience. He hurls destruction among men. There is calamity by land and sea. Property and life are destroyed by fire and flood. Satan resolves to charge this upon those who refuse to bow to the idol which he has set up. His agents point to Seventh-day Adventists as the cause of the trouble. "These people stand out in defiance of law," they say. "They desecrate Sunday. Were they compelled to obey the law for Sunday observance, there would be a cessation of these terrible judgments." {Mar 176.2}


A time is coming when the law of God is, in a special sense, to be made void in our land [the United States]. The rulers of our nation will, by legislative enactments, enforce the Sunday law, ... when that land shall, through its legislators, abjure the principles of Protestantism, and give countenance to Romish apostasy in tampering with God's law--it is then that the final work of the man of sin will be revealed. Protestants will throw their whole influence and strength on the side of the Papacy; by a national act enforcing the false sabbath, they will give life and vigor to the corrupt faith of Rome, reviving her tyranny and oppression of conscience. Then it will be time for God to work in mighty power for the vindication of His truth. {Mar 179.3}

The time is not far distant, when, like the early disciples, we shall be forced to seek a refuge in desolate and solitary places. As the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies was the signal for flight to the Judean Christians, so the assumption of power on the part of our nation [the United States] in the decree enforcing the papal sabbath will be a warning to us. It will then be time to leave the large cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller ones for retired homes in secluded places among the mountains. {Mar 180.2}


In this time of persecution the faith of the Lord's servants will be tried. They have faithfully given the warning, looking to God and to His word alone. God's Spirit, moving upon their hearts, has constrained them to speak. . . . Yet when the storm of opposition and reproach bursts upon them, some, overwhelmed with consternation, will be ready to exclaim: "Had we foreseen the consequences of our words, we would have held our peace." They are hedged in with difficulties. Satan assails them with fierce temptations. The work which they have undertaken seems far beyond their ability to accomplish. They are threatened with destruction. The enthusiasm which animated them is gone; yet they cannot turn back. Then, feeling their utter helplessness, they flee to the Mighty One for strength. {Mar 186.4}


Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. {Mar 264.2}


When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {Mar 265.3}

When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out.

I saw the leading men of the earth consulting together, and Satan and his angels busy around them. I saw a writing, copies of which were scattered in different parts of the land, giving orders that unless the saints should yield their peculiar faith, give up the Sabbath, and observe the first day of the week, the people were at liberty after a certain time to put them to death. {Mar 268.4}


Though God's people will be surrounded by enemies who are bent upon their destruction, yet the anguish which they suffer is not a dread of persecution for the truth's sake; they fear that every sin has not been repented of, and that through some fault in themselves they will fail to realize the fulfillment of the Saviour's promise: I "will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world." Revelation 3:10. If they could have the assurance of pardon they would not shrink from torture or death; but should they prove unworthy, and lose their lives because of their own defects of character, then God's holy name would be reproached. {Mar 273.2}


When the protection of human laws shall be withdrawn from those who honor the law of God, there will be, in different lands, a simultaneous movement for their destruction. As the time appointed in the decree draws near, the people will conspire to root out the hated sect. It will be determined to strike in one night a decisive blow, which shall utterly silence the voice of dissent and reproof. {Mar 278.2}
The people of God--some in prison cells, some hidden in solitary retreats in the forests and the mountains--still plead for divine protection, while in every quarter companies of armed men, urged on by hosts of evil angels, are preparing for the work of death. It is now, in the hour of utmost extremity, that the God of Israel will interpose for the deliverance of His chosen.

It is at midnight that God manifests His power for the deliverance of His people.... The 144,000 triumphed. Their faces were lighted up with the glory of God. {Mar 279.7}
When the voice of God turns the captivity of His people, there is a terrible awakening of those who have lost all in the great conflict of life.


It was at midnight that God chose to deliver His people. As the wicked were mocking around them, suddenly the sun appeared, shining in his strength, and the moon stood still. . . . Dark, heavy clouds came up and clashed against each other. But there was one clear place of settled glory, whence came the voice of God like many waters, shaking the heavens and the earth. There was a mighty earthquake. The graves were opened, and those who had died in faith under the third angel's message, keeping the Sabbath, came forth from their dusty beds, glorified, to hear the covenant of peace that God was to make with those who had kept His law.

The voice of God is heard from heaven, declaring the day and hour of Jesus' coming, and delivering everlasting covenant to His people. Like peals of loudest thunder His words roll through the earth. {Mar 287.2}
He spoke one sentence, and then paused, while the words were rolling through the earth. The Israel of God stood with their eyes fixed upward, listening to the words as they came from the mouth of Jehovah and rolled through the earth like peals of loudest thunder. It was awfully solemn. At the end of every sentence the saints shouted, "Glory! Hallelujah!" {Mar 287.3}
The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. {Mar 287.4}
The Israel of God stand listening, with their eyes fixed upward. Their countenances are lighted up with His glory, and shine as did the face of Moses when he came down from Sinai. The wicked cannot look upon them. And when the blessing is pronounced on those who have honored God by keeping His Sabbath holy, there is a mighty shout of victory. {Mar 287.5}






Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: dedication] #171469
01/24/15 05:39 AM
01/24/15 05:39 AM
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Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
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On the May 16, 1854 article, I assume you are posting as some proof of verification for your beliefs that Isaiah 2 does not point to the pre-Mil kingdom. if so please state who wrote that article?


Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 01/24/15 06:58 AM.
Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #171488
01/24/15 10:01 PM
01/24/15 10:01 PM
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As noted in the post -- {May 16, 1854 James White editor, Adventist Review Sabbath Herald}
Most likely written by James White as there was no name after the article in that ARSH, and he was the editor.

And as noted in previous posts -- there are quite a number of articles by various Adventist pioneers saying the same thing.

The one previous to J.White was by Elliot Waggoner (famous for his 1888 message)

Re: Understanding TWO probations from Scripture and SOP [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #171489
01/24/15 10:22 PM
01/24/15 10:22 PM
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Here's another one:

Adventist Review Sabbath Herald JAN. 22, 1861 Uriah Smith editor

All the following is QUOTING from the article:

SWORDS INTO PLOUGHSHARES.
_
WE find the following paragraph in the Scientific
American:
"We have not yet reached those ' last days' spoken
of by the good old prophet Isaiah, when the mountain
of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of
the mountain, when he shall judge among the nations,
and shall rebuke many people ; and they shall beat
their swords into ploughshares, and their s pears into
pruning hooks;....

The writer of the above
fails in not discriminating between what " the good old
prophet Isaiah" says on the authority of inspiration,
and what he says other people will say.
Isaiah does,
not tell us that in the last days people shall beat their
swords into ploughshares and learn war no more. But
he does say that "many people shall go and say" such
and such flattering things, and this among the rest,
And is not this just what people are now saying ?

Is not here brought to view the very doctrine of a temporal
millennium, and the very cry of peace and safety
which is especially to characterize the last days ? We
would therefore suggest to the Scientific, that though
we have not reached a time when men are beating
swords into ploughshares, we have reached a time when
people are saying that this is going to be the case, and
this saying was to take place in the "last days," and
was to be a peculiar mark of those days.

But so far is this from being true, that the Lord rebukes
them for entertaining such a delusive dream of
carnal security
. Isa. ii, 6 : "Therefore thou host forsaken
thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished
from the east, and are soothsayers like the
Philistines." He rebukes them for heaping to themselves
such abundance of gold, silver, horses, and idols,
and finally tells them to enter into the rock, and hide them
in the dust for fear of the Lord and for the glory of his
majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
So far then from the present perplexity of the nations
and rumors of wars, being a sign that we have not yet
reached the last days, they are just the reverse. And
still the religious teachers of the day, persist in re-iterating
their cry of peace and safety right in the face
of daily-transpiring events, which demolish their sophisms
at every step, and beat the brains out of their
most plausible theories.

END QUOTE

Page 11 of 12 1 2 9 10 11 12

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

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