What does it mean to "fear" in these verses?

Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments.

Prov. 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.

Prov. 14:26 In the fear of the LORD is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge.
14:27 The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.


Proverbs 29:25 The fear of man brings a snare: but whoso places his trust in the LORD shall be safe.


Duet. 10:12 what does the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

2 Tim 1:7 For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.
4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Romans 8:15 "For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, 'Abba, Father'".

There is a spirit of fear that generates bondage. This kind of fear is not the beginning of knowledge.

2 Tim. 1:7. "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind."

Note: The word "fear" in the Bible must always be understood in view of the context in which it occurs.

A fear based mainly on terror of coming judgment does not change the heart, nor fit anyone for the heavenly kingdom. A person who obeys simply out of fear, is like those who receive the "mark" on their hands -- they do things merely to escape punishment but their hearts are not in it.

So what does it mean to fear God?
And to love Him with all our hearts?

Scripture reveals that God desires obedience from a heart of love, and a mind that understands and appreciates that His ways are the ways of life and happiness.


The fear of the Lord is the fear of a loving, trusting child for a loving, godly Father.

It is such a reverence for God that the one who fears Him is filled with a great desire to please Him, and never to dishonor or bring shame to His Holy Name.

It is standing in awe of His love, of His holiness, of His power, and realizing that though He rules the universe, He desires our individual salvation; He desires our company!

The fear of the Lord is to know him --

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


Ephesians 3:15-20 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Being afraid and being startled are two different forms of fear.

Are you saying we should be either afraid or startled by God? Or is there ANOTHER definition of fear??? I think that is what Dedication is trying to get across.

We have no reason to "fear" God, but we need to "fear God". Two completely different meanings. We have no reason to ever be afraid of God.

You might compare the Hebrew and Greek words, how they are similar and different.

2 Tim. 1:7. "For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind."

The word for fear in the text above is
deilia = fearful, lack of courage, cowardly


1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear:

The word for fear in the text above is
phobos = terror, fright, fear, dread

Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with [his] hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
phobeō = to fear, flee from in fright, reverence, reverential obedience


Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments.

The Hebrew word in that text is
yir'ah = fear, terror, reverence, awe, respect
(it seems to have the full range of meanings)


Summary
The fear of the Lord (as in respect, obedience, reverence, and love) and accepting Him as our Savior and being lead by His spirit,
delivers us from the fear and terror of the wrath and death which is to come.

However, sinners who reject the liberation from sin, have
Heb 10:27 "But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."


Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Pr. 14:27 The fear of the LORD [is] a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

"Perfect love" may not prevent us from being startled when a friend pops out of nowhere and screams. But it does prevent us being afraid of God and afraid of suffering and dying.

I have never personally met someone who is afraid of God. But I have met people who are afraid of suffering and dying. I believe "perfect love" saves us from being afraid of suffering and dying. Like the martyrs, Jesus will supply the grace needed to handle suffering and the threat of death with dignity unto His honor and glory.

Yes, they cannot prevent themselves from being afraid.

And what or who are they afraid of??? What God will do to them that don't love Him?

The fear of the Lord is very much like "faith".
It is reaching out to the life line that lifts us up and fits us to enjoy life everlasting!

Without faith (fear of the Lord) their is a lot of fearful fear, because all that lies before those who are not walking in the "fear of the Lord" is certain destruction.

We are in a world that is headed for destruction

This world, steeped in sin, is headed for destruction. It can be no other way.
All one needs to do is see what sin is doing to people, to children, to animals, to the environment -- the huge amount of suffering, cruelty, violence, despair, death, sickness, abuse, hunger, war and destruction, that is taking place daily.


Matt. 21:26 tells us: "Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth"

The world is heading for some very frightening times.

How will we fare?

There are two main ways that Scripture talks about it. First, there is the fear of God; second, there is the fear of everything else.

The second type is a fear of loosing control over lives -- It’s the fear of losing what’s important to us, whether it be our job, our home, our family, our reputation, our health, our security and well being, or our lives.

When it comes to this kind of fear, the Bible says to abandon it. “Do not fear, for I am with you; do not be dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you and help you; I will uphold you with my righteous right hand” (Isaiah 41:10).


To understand -- image yourself in a terrible storm - a life threatening storm, like a huge tsunami and hurricane all combined.

The natural fear is one of loosing everything, possibly life itself. But then you see a light beckoning from a fortress on top of a mighty rock. You reach out and are lifted up into that fortress.
You found a refuge and now have the hope of life. But not everything in the feeling called fear vanished. The storm is still raging, lashing all around. You realize that to leave your refuge would hurl you into certain destruction.

That's sort of like the "fear of the Lord".

The situations in this sinful world can give us fears that grip, paralyze, and control us.
But the fear we need is one that turns and runs to God, finding shelter in him and trusting him in the midst of storms A fear that stands in awe of his amazing grace. The right kind of fear chases away all other fears.

But Dedication - we have people right here on this forum telling us that sin does not cause destruction. God causes the destruction in the end. We have had forum moderators tell us we do need to be afraid of God and we need to preach it more!

We don't use the word "fear" anymore (in every day language) the way it is used in the KJV.

Sin has caused destruction, sickness, death, war, violence, abuse, brokenness, and a multitude of evils to numerous to mention -- the whole earth is groaning under the weight of sin and its results.

God offers deliverance, cleansing, life, and blessings more abundant than we can imagine. Not only in the eternal life to come but also a peace and happiness in this life that can carry us through trials that are inevitable in this world filled with sin.

Now God could simply allow the world to destroy itself. In fact it probably would have done so long ago if God had not held back the winds of strife.

But there are issues greater than just letting sin run it's course (which to a large extent sin is allowed to do) and that is SALVATION.
Not only does sin reveal its evil destructive nature,
but God also reveals His power of salvation and deliverance.

People will know that it was their choice that kept them from salvation. They will know that Christ did everything possible to save them but they rejected him, and yes, they will be filled with remorse and terror.


What happens at the second coming?

Yes, there will be terror, fright,
as well as exceeding great joy.

The coming will be an event that shakes everything --
It seems that the coming will have a dramatic gravitational effect on our planet as we are told all nature goes haywire; when it's supposed to be night, the sun shines? Streams run uphill, mountains sink, etc. Does this mean the rotation of the earth is even changed?

The fire and glory as He draws near will be terrible. Even the saved experience some fear.

We shouldn't be afraid of God -- we should be running to Him for He is the source of life, goodness, peace, love, joy.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is very patient with us, not wanting that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

God doesn't want anyone to be lost -- patiently He is calling, pleading, -- for all to come and find life in Him.
He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Sin only offers death.

By His grace we can stand in the awesome glory and brightness of his holiness. He invites us to come and be clothed in His garments of righteousness that will enable us to stand.


But yes, someday He will erase all traces of sin. The wicked will not be able to stand for sin cannot stand in God's presence.

But remember He is the One Who has made a way of escape, He has provided a place of refuge, He has called us to forsake the ways of death and come to the source of life, and we have the promise:

3 Peter 3:13
"we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness."

Then there will be no more death, sickness, crying, pain, violence, abuse, or any evil.

Ded-We shouldn't be afraid of God -- we should be running to Him for He is the source of life, goodness, peace, love, joy.

Yes, this is true. However let us not fall asleep--

"False prophets..complain that the peace of the people is unnecessarily disturbed by reproofs and warnings of God's messengers (Testimonies,vol. 4,p.185)


"Those who are occupying the position of watchmen to warn the people of danger, have given up their watch, and recline at ease. They are unfaithful sentinels. They have remained inactive and indolent while ,their wily foe has entered the fort, and works successfully by their side.. They apprehend no special danger. They see no cause for alarm." (PH 011-1)

"..the solemn message to the Laodiceans .. is not a smooth message."
(3 Testimonies, p.257)

"It is not silver-tongued orators that are needed to give the message. The truth in all its pointed severity must be spoken." (5 Testimonies, p.187)

"The Lord..gives His chosen messengers a holy boldness, that those who hear may fear and be brought to repentance.(CC, p.203)

A physician lays out what a disease course will take. The bad if it is not remedied, and the good if it is healed. Do we need to be afraid of a real physician? No. We have no need to be afraid of God - ever. We need to see sin for what it is and what it will do to us so we will come to the Heavenly Physician.

Except for the fact nature is not self-acting. It can do nothing of itself. Jesus cannot simply let go and let nature wreak havoc. It doesn't work that way. Nature is not self-acting. Jesus must work for it to be destructive.

Sinful flesh cannot abide the unveiled presence of God. Not even Jesus, while here in sinful flesh, could have survived the unveiled presence of God. His flesh would have melted.

Is God the creator of thorns and thistles? Is God the creator of misery and blood shed? Of pain and suffering? These are work of an antagonistic power. Sin has marred God's perfect work. Satan is the AUTHOR of sin. He is the author of evil, the creator of it, and nature reveals the knowledge of evil.

True -- nature is not self acting -- it has no mind of it's own.
Nature is governed by laws which God put in place.
But what happens when God's laws are ignored, or tampered with?
What happens when the laws of nature are transgressed?
What happens when any of God's laws are ignored or transgressed?

The same sort of thing happens, as when a person disregards the laws of running a car -- (wrong fuel, no oil, running on flat tires) the car isn't self acting, but when the laws of it's needs are transgressed it soon stops running.

This whole drama with sin is concerning God's law!
And God's laws of nature and morality are not arbitrary laws, but the very principles which ensure wellbeing and a world of harmony and peace.

Sin is the transgression of God's law.
What results when God's laws are transgressed?
What happens when fallen angels and fallen men tamper with God's laws of nature?

This world is a graphic example of what happens when God's laws are transgressed!

When God's laws are transgressed trouble, pain, destruction and all manner of terrible things result.
Sin has been allowed for 6000 years to show what sin does, and hopefully people will come to their senses and realize that God's laws are absolutely perfect and good and are the only way for happiness and all things that are good to exist.

Not because God is a dictator -- but because the very ways of those laws is good, right and the ways of happiness and harmony.




No, it's not God that transgressed His law.
An enemy has done this.


God is not the author of the trouble in this world-- or the author of nature gone haywire.
The trouble is the result of men and fallen angels mutilating God's laws and reaping the results.
These results of disregarding and transgressing God's law, are witnessed not only in the moral degeneration in people, but also in the physical degeneration of nature.


This is reaching great heights in our time.
The whole earth (yes nature) will show what transgressing God's laws does to it's ability to be a place where life can exist.

For example-- Greedy men tampering with the God's law which He placed within plants.
Geneses 1:12 "herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed is in itself"

Greedy men remove from food plants the "seed after his kind" so people can no longer harvest seeds from their produce but must buy seed from the mega companies!
This is dangerous tampering and disregard for God's law -- it's placing the production of seeds to grow food into the hands of a few men, and all it takes is for their seeds to be contaminated with altered (no seed) plants and there will be a huge shortage of food in this world -- the resulting famine won't be God's doing, it will be the result of transgressing God's law and the greed of a few in rendering food plants incapable of reproducing that will bring terrible famine.

Mankind are destroying the earth with their disregard for God's laws of nature -- as well as destroying themselves with that same disregard for God's moral laws.

Careful Dedication - you are straying very close to what I have been saying for a long time!

The situation is --
I don't agree with either side!
Not agreed with your view of the atonement
Not agreed with the other sides picture of God.
There is another understanding.

God did not create thorns. He permitted Satan to tweak nature and thorns resulted. However, thorns are not self-acting. Neither is Satan the source of their existence or power to grow and act. Jesus supplies the power to exist, to grow, and to act.

Jesus must act and work to supply the life and power for nature to exist, to grow, and to act. The laws of nature are not the source of its existence, or its power to grow or to act. For example, fire and flood and tornadoes and hurricanes, etc do not act of its own accord. Jesus must act and work for them to act the way they do. Even when Jesus permits evil angels to use them as weapons of destruction - Jesus must act and work for them to act the way they do. Wind would not flow and generate tornadoes and hurricanes without Jesus acting and working to make it possible for them to act that way. Evil angels are not their source of life or power to act the way they do.

So Jesus wants tornadoes and hurricanes and rape?

This thread wasn't meant to simple be a place to repeat the same pictures as have been presented over and over again on this forum,

Think of the pictures presented over and over again -- what picture of God is being presented??? Are the words written meant to draw anyone to God??? or to drive people away from God????

I don't understand why any Christian would want to paint a picture of a God who is responsible for all the bad things that happen?
For that is the picture that Satan wants us to present of God.

But it is Satan that is the one responsible.




That is exactly the charge against God that Satan makes--
Since God is the author of life it is reasoned, therefore, God is the one responsible for all evil.

It's a charge we hear over and over again from unbelievers who want nothing to do with God.

Is this what some Adventists believe?

God's law.

God is sovereign of the universe. The One Who created and sustains all things.
I think we all agree on that point?

In order for any sovereign or "king" to rule and govern a harmonious and well flowing system and society there must be laws. In the case of God these laws are very important for they hold the balance of all things in a "well oiled" smooth running situation.

Rebellion against the laws of a sovereign king is called "treason". It is the attempt to overthrow the ruling King. Treason carries the death sentence.

That is also a law -- it is high treason to flout and transgress God's law, for it is the attempt to overthrow His position as Sovereign and King of the universe. The penalty for doing so is the loss of life.

Therefore -- when God's laws were challenged and transgressed, it was treason, the transgressors saying "We don't want God to rule over us. Let us overthrow His throne."

By the right of justice and law
God could have removed life from the rebels then and there.
For it is true there is NO LIFE apart from God, He is the author and source of life. To turn away from God is to turn away from life.


BUT WHAT WOULD HAVE RESULTED?

God's created beings would have served Him because of FEAR.
Indeed, they would think -- better obey or God will kill you.

God does not desire the worship generated by fear, He desires the worship freely given because love and trust and joy in His ways are fully realized.


PLAN

1. The penalty of treason would be assumed by the ONE Who created all things and without Him was nothing created. He would stand as surety for the human race.

2. Man kind would be given a measure of life, a temporary justification, in which they could choose to accept God's gifts of justification and renewal into God's image and enjoy everlasting life with their Creator and Savior, or choose to join the rebellious crowd who fight against God's law and establish for themselves the charge of treason against God's kingdom of life.

3. Sin (the transgression of God's laws, both moral and physical laws) would be allowed as a witness to the universe what transgression of God's laws is like.
So yes, God does give life -- but He is NOT the author of the evil and trouble that sin has brought. That results because God's laws have been transgressed, tampered with, mutilated, ignored, etc. and the forces meant for life are used to bring death and destruction.


CONCLUSION

Yes, there is a judgment when all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Those who believe in God's goodness and holiness, and accepted Christ and all He seeks to do in our lives will receive everlasting life.

Those who chose the road of treason, will reap the penalty for treason, but only after it has been exclusively demonstrated that only God's laws are the way of life and harmony.
God does not seek obedience in the ways of a tyrant, but in the way of a God Who will give all to save people from sin and death. Only after it has been determined beyond a shadow of any doubt that God is love and good and His laws are the very fiber of goodness, and harmony, and transgression is ruin, will sin and those who cling to sin be eternally blotted out.

In the everlasting kingdom, no one will serve HIM because of fear, but out of a heart overflowing with thankfulness and love for his matchless gift of salvation from sin, and His goodness and righteousness.

YES - unfortunately...

You haven't shared anything here that APL hasn't already shared elsewhere. He does an awesome job of presenting Jesus as the restorer and Satan as the destroyer.

Perhaps I missed your point, your picture of Jesus? What have you shared here that APL hasn't already shared elsewhere?

Nobody here has said such a thing. Why do you ask?

My position is not the same as APL.
Yes, I agree with him that God is working to restore, while Satan is working to destroy, deceive and ruin.

That is a key point of truth.

I do not believe that it is God giving "life" to hurricanes and tornados, etc. True, He created the atmosphere, and there is a lot of power in even an atom, yet God placed them under physical laws that would never cause tornados or hurricanes if those laws were followed from the beginning-- but sinful men and fallen angels have taken the powers of nature meant for our good and turned them into means for destruction.
They are the result of SIN (transgressing God's laws)


My disagreement with APL is not concerning the source of evil in this world, in that I agree with him. My disagreement with him goes back further to a foundational point in which we disagree. And yes, it was shared in my previous posts on this thread. The role of the atonement, in which Christ took upon himself the penalty of treason against God's government. That penalty is death. The penalty of treason was assumed by the ONE Who created all things and without Him was nothing created. He would stand as surety for the human race.

By Christ doing so, all mankind was given a temporary justification -- a measure of life in which, with thanksgiving and gratitude to accept God's kingdom of life and grace with it's laws of liberty, and thus be granted eternal justification and cleansing fitting them for eternal life.
Or to choose to continue in the rebellious crowd who fight against God's law and establish upon themselves the charge of treason against God's kingdom of life. Which, according to Heb. 10:26-27, Christ's death cannot cover and thus they reap the penalty of treason upon themselves.


Our focus on the character of God should be on His restoring LOVE for us.
For this is the message -- come to Christ in faith and trust, claiming His merits and surrendering to His good and righteous will.




He calls us with the voice of love -- to flee from sin and its headlong dash to eternal destruction, and find refuge and life eternal in Him.

You did. You said nothing is self-acting. You said it only happens if God wants it to happen. You are the one saying that Jesus wills that tornados, hurricanes and rapes happen, but Jesus is empowering them.

No - God is NOT the cause of these things.

I think - can correct me if I'm wrong, is that Dedication is saying that in the end, God does execute the wicked, in justice. IF so, then yes, we do disagree. In the end, God lets sin play out to its full and natural consequence, and sinners are destroyed, fully and totally. The wages of sin is death, not execution by God. Sin pays its wage, sin when it is full grown, brings death. (quoting scripture)

Yes, Christ took on sin and condemned sin in the flesh, and yes, He demonstrated that natural results of sin in Gethsemane and the Cross, and God did not touch Him!

You are implying, then, that nature is self-acting, that the laws of nature, not Jesus, is what empowers nature to act. No laws are broken when things like tornadoes and hurricanes happen.


Jesus permits evil men and evil angels to use the forces of nature as weapons of destruction - "according to His will." But they are not the ones who empower nature to act. "Nature is not self-acting; it is the servant of its Creator." "Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will." He is the source of its power to act - not evil men, not evil angels, not the laws of nature.

Jesus also uses the forces of nature as weapons of destruction.


There is nothing "evil" about Jesus employing the forces of nature to punish and destroy sinners. True, it is "strange" - but it is not "evil".

I quoted the SOP "nature is not self-acting" - I did not say "nothing is self-acting." You are distorting the facts.

Jesus willingly permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction within the limits He Himself establishes. However, He works to ensure evil men and evil angels do not exceed the limits He is willing to allow. Evil men and evil angels are not free to exceed His limits. Nothing happens without His permission. When things happen it is because Jesus willingly permits it - which is not the same as saying Jesus "wants" it to happen. Circumstances force Him to cause, command, or permit things to happen He wishes could be prevented.

You agree with these insights.

"The wages of sin is death" - not a lifetime of sinning and repenting and gradually dying after a long, lingering first death. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Death "instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to . . . the Son of God." {1SM 230.1} Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Thus death did indeed happen the day Adam and Eve sinned - just like God promised.

Jesus had to live, suffer, and die to pay our sin debt of death. Law and justice demanded it. God was not free to pardon and save sinners without satisfying the death demands of law and justice. A penal substitution was required. His life and death and suffering also serve to motivate sinners to confess and forsake their sins and to embrace Jesus as their Savior and Friend. But equally as important His death validates the just requirements of law and justice.

In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. {DA 761.4} Interesting - that is exactly what MM just said.

1) "Every sin must meet its punishment." True. Jesus was punished for the sins of the world. Not one sin was overlooked.

2) "If God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice." True. However, Jesus was punished for the sins of the world. Not one sin was overlooked. Therefore, God is a God of truth and justice. He is also a God of mercy and compassion.

"The wages of sin is death" - not a lifetime of sinning and repenting and gradually dying after a long, lingering first death. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Death "instead of being immediately visited upon the transgressor, should be transferred to . . . the Son of God." {1SM 230.1} Jesus is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Thus death did indeed happen the day Adam and Eve sinned - just like God promised.

Jesus willingly permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction within the limits He Himself establishes. However, He works to ensure evil men and evil angels do not exceed the limits He is willing to allow. Evil men and evil angels are not free to exceed His limits. Nothing happens without His permission. When things happen it is because Jesus willingly permits it - which is not the same as saying Jesus "wants" it to happen. Circumstances force Him to cause, command, or permit things to happen He wishes could be prevented. You agree with these insights.

Who punished Jesus?

Sinful Choices end up in Severe Consequences

In dealing with ones children you will see that parents often step in to stop consequences from happening and as a result the children think they can chose sin and avoid the consequences.

Kids skip school and don't do their homework, but teachers are not allowed to fail them????
Kids damage their neighbor's property, but parents quickly cover the cost.
Kids end up in situations that land them in jail, but parents quickly bail them out.
Those are just a few examples of parents intervening to avert the natural consequences of wrong choices.

Now there is a place for parents to protect their kids from consequences, for their role is to provide a safe environment for them to learn and grow, however if this is taken too far the results do not prepare a child for responsible behavior.

God is our Father -- He has stepped in time and time again to protect the human race from the full consequences of sin -- yet allows sins consequences to manifest themselves in hopes all will learn their only safety is in turning to Him.

Yet because sin has not yet manifest its full horror, people still think its not as bad as God says it is. A time is just ahead when God will withdraw His Holy Spirit more fully from the earth and consequence of sin will fully manifest themselves.

But God does not forsake His people -- he will deliver them.

The consequences of sin are real and cannot be avoided.
We already know --
spend more money than you make -- go bankrupt.

Skip work when you don't feel like working -- get fired.
Smoke and other health destroying habits -- loose your health.

Cut down all the trees over huge areas of land and plow as fields -- reap destructive winds and soil erosion.

According to Nation Geographic: The scientists say pollution from Asia is leading to stronger cyclones in the midlatitudes of the Pacific.
We can't be pumping all kinds of unnatural stuff into the atmosphere and into the water systems and expect things to continue as "normal" and then blame God for what happens.


Hosea 8:7 For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind:
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.


God has given us the freedom to Choose,
However nobody is free Not to Choose,
"You Are Not Free to Choose the Consequences of Your Choice”.

Jesus took OUR sins upon Himself and reaped the consequences of treason against God's laws.

It was only by doing so that He could provide exemption to those who accepted Him to escape the consequences of treason against God's laws.

No matter how righteous (by the power of God) our actions may become, the fact remains, "we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God" and thus the consequences of treason against God would still stand against us, unless our Creator, took upon Himself those consequences.

Part of Christ's healing ministry is to first remove the sentence against us, by taking it upon Himself, and then restoring our characters into joyful obedience to His laws of living, fitting us for heaven, and finally, at His coming restoring our bodies into incorruptible bodies that will live forever in His glorious kingdom.

Dedication - how about a simple, clear answer. How is the sentence imposed and by whom? Does God execute the sinner? Is that the consequence of sin?

This is one the best descriptions I've ever read. Jesus truly blessed you, Dedication, with these words. Thank you, Jesus.

Jesus was allowed to suffer the emotional anguish associated with the sins of the world. He felt as if He committed every sin from the first sin to the last sin (which also speaks to God's foreknowledge). One sin is enough to cause emotional heartbreak and death. Jesus felt the accumulated anguish of the sins of the world. He tasted, consumed, and conquered the cup of woe and trembling and then He laid down His own life. He did not die the second death. He tasted it and defeated it. Satan will die with our sins and second death in the lake of fire.

Jesus did not suffer in the exact same way the resurrected wicked will suffer in the lake of fire. Nor will the resurrected wicked suffer like Jesus did on the cross. The difference between the two is as vast as the difference between God and humans. Read the description of Jesus' sufferings and death on the cross and compare it to the description of the resurrected wicked's suffering and death in the lake of fire - there is very little comparison.

Even though Jesus Christ "felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race" (DA 753) the difference between the two is so vast as to make comparison impractical if not ludicrous. Hardened sinners cannot come close to suffering like Jesus did because their hearts are so hardened, so dead they are incapable of the feelings and anguish He endured. An unveiled knowledge of their sins in judgment is insufficient to cause the kind of suffering and anguish Jesus endured.


The glory of God does not consume the wicked.


Again, the glory of God does not consume the wicked.


Again, neither the glory of God nor an unveiled knowledge of their sins in judgment consume the wicked.


Again, neither the glory of God nor an unveiled knowledge of their sins in judgment consume the resurrected wicked. Instead, they are full of rage and employ their energy to fight among themselves.


Had Jesus not intervened the wicked would have slaughtered themselves in fits of rage and battle. Not until Jesus rains down fire from above and raises fire up from below do the wicked begin to suffer in duration and intensity in proportion to their sinfulness.

So, as you can read, there is very little comparison between the suffering and anguish of Jesus and the suffering of the resurrected wicked. To insist, therefore, that Jesus' experience from Gethsemane to Golgotha demonstrates what the resurrected wicked will experience in judgment and in the lake of fire is absurd and uninspired.

Christ (Who is fully God) Himself took our punishment.
As our Creator, the One Who made us, He gave his life, taking our sins upon Himself and paying the penalty for treason on our behalf.


John 10:15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:17 Therefore does my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.

This He did because it was the only way.



There was no other way a God of love could find
To reconcile the world of a lost mankind
It took the death of His own Son upon a tree
There was no other way but Calvary

The wealth of all the world could not redeem us
Nor could our feeble works so great a price
Our only hope is in the blood of Jesus
The blood He shed for us in sacrifice

Did the Father execute the Son? NO
What killed the Son of God? Sin.
What kills sinners in the end? Sin.
How will they die? Just like Jesus died.

So here is one that thinks that God will EXECUTE sinners in the end. Funny how you read a book of symbols and make them literal. Here is an interesting fire. Song of Solomon 8:6-7 Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, its jealousy as enduring as the grave. Love flashes like fire, the brightest kind of flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, nor can rivers drown it. If a man tried to buy love with all his wealth, his offer would be utterly scorned.

So are you saying the fire in the end is symbolic of love?

I suppose in one sense one can say that, as the sinners would be terribly miserable if God continued to give them life in a world where everything they used to love was forbidden. It would not be love to give them life in God's kingdom where they would be totally miserable.

Remember those who are lost, though experiencing anguish because they lost, are NOT sorrowing for their sins, if they could have taken the city and dethroned God they would have done so.

These last scenes show the utter "treason" in their hearts, as they march on God's city with the intent of dethroning God and taking over the city with Lucifer as their king.

They then realize it is hopeless and are greatly enraged and humbled by the loss, they are shown what might have been and thus loose the courage to fight further in taking the city, but they are NOT repentant, they are mad because they lost, and mad at each other for giving them false hope that they could win.

They do NOT WANT to be in God's kingdom, they do not love God's laws and ways, they want the kingdom for themselves, they want the power and life in sin and the city. They had hoped that Lucifer and the numberless army would be able to take the city.
Their remorse is the sorrow of someone facing the consequences of sin, not of one who feels sorrow for sin and longs for righteousness. Yes, they long for eternal life, but not eternal life in God's kingdom of righteousness.

Even in this world sin has consequences that aren't the natural result of the sin, but result because the laws of the land put criminals in jail etc. They are shown the true picture of their rebellion and treason and realize they are deserving of death.



But back to that supposedly "symbolic" fire --
No == that fire is NOT symbolic.
It is a very real fire. A tremendously powerful fire.

Now I could maybe believe that the vast army marching on God's city had, during their "preparation for war" period, manufactured a vast array of WMD and when they realized they had lost, in their rage (which we are told is very fierce) these were all ignited and caused the tremendous nuclear, atomic type of raging fire.

But there is no way I would believe that fire is "symbolic".
It is a literal fire that burns and cleanses the earth as well as the atmosphere around the earth.

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10.

It is true - there will be a fire that cleans up the chaff, and the whole earth will be cleansed. Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devours the stubble, and the flame consumes the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Dedication, is it to hard for you to state clearly that God executes the sinner? You have danced all around this. You do appear to believe that and that God really is the cause of the death of the sinner, so perhaps we really do need to be afraid of God... Jesus came to save us from execution by God. Is that not what you are saying?

No that is NOT what I am saying.
We do NOT have to be afraid of God. We need to be afraid of our stupidity in thinking sin brings life and happiness.

Jesus and God the Father are in One accord, any concept that One is saving us from the other is wrong thinking. They are totally united in the work of salvation.

No, God (Father and Son and Holy Spirit) is not the cause of anyone's death. Sin, not God is the enemy. Sin means death and we've all earned that sentence for ourselves. God has poured out all of heaven to save us from the eternal death. There is no need for anyone to die the eternal death, for Christ opened up the door to heaven for us so we can have life through Him.


We should never fear God in the sense of thinking of Him as someone who wants to destroy us -- for He longs to save us, and has done so much to make that possible. We need to trust Him and depend upon Him and praise Him for His awesome grace and love and all He has done so we need NOT die the eternal death but have eternal life with Him in his glorious eternal kingdom!

In Christ is life. He came that we might have life!



The problem is this -- God (that is God the Father and the Son) need to deal with the sin problem in more ways than just the healing of sin torn characters (though this is an important part).

Treason (rebellion against our Maker and sustainer) must be dealt with.

Now if a person thinks of sin as only bad mistakes that lead to bad consequences, they may think God harsh in taking measures of justice against it. But if a person realizes how malicious and evil sin really is they would not question God's justice against it. They see God as the One Who delivers from evil.

In Gethsemane and Calvary, Christ's heart was literally broken -- and this didn't result from sin alone, His agony came from His sense of God's offense to the sin He carried (our sins which He bore).



God's love had not changed, but justice was hiding that love. The "sword of justice" impartial, was falling upon Christ in Gethsemane.

We need to understand that God the Father and Son were working together and suffering together and what was done needed to be done so human beings could receive justification.



The justice of the law demanded the death of the sinner. This was paid by the Creator -- this justice was not just ordered by God the Father, it was something both Father and Son knew was necessary to be able to forgive the repentant transgressors of the law, yet still uphold the authority of the law.

Who will execute judgment in the end?

The same One Who died to give us life and salvation, is the One Who will execute judgment in the end.

The One Who loved each of us so much that He was willing to go through all that agony so we can have life, is the One Who determines Who has accepted that gift and Who has rejected it.

It is at His second coming that the righteous receive the glorious reward, caught up in the clouds to be forever with Him, praising Him for the marvellous love that grants for them eternal life, while those Who rejected Him will perish that same time, and the earth be left desolate.


At the third coming, it will be Christ sitting on the throne raised high above the city walls as everyone who has ever lived is gathered either inside or outside the city.

"in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He (Christ) declares: "Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages." And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12. {GC 671.1}

ALSO

It is Christ "that pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people." GC 666

APL, you dismiss as symbolic the description in the GC quotes I posted above. But the fire that God will rain down and raise up is very literal. It punishes and consumes the wicked before they kill one another. The revelation of their sins in judgment will not kill them. Nor will it cause them to suffer the emotional anguish Jesus suffered. Sin cannot kill or cause emotional anguish in hearts hardened beyond hope. They would live forever if they were granted access to the fruit of the tree of life, that is, if they could avoid murdering one another - which is highly unlikely. In either case, it would not be sin that kills them. Which is why Jesus cannot, in justice, standby and allow the wicked to use their weapons or hands to kill one another. It would be inhumane. Jesus will execute punishment - not sin, not self, not Satan, not the forces of nature. The Bible is clear about it:

Exodus
12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD.

Psalm
119:84 How many [are] the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me?

Psalm
149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, [and] punishments upon the people;
149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Jeremiah
23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
33:15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

Ezekiel
5:15 So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that [are] round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken [it].
5:16 When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for [their] destruction, [and] which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread:
5:17 So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken [it].

John
5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Jude
1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Revelation
16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Revelation
19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation
20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.
20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Nothing and no one killed Jesus. He conquered the second death and voluntarily laid down His own life. He died the first death as evidenced by three facts - 1) He was alive when He cried, It is finished, 2) He is alive now, and 3) the Scapegoat will die with our sins and second death in the lake of fire.

Also, the resurrected wicked will not suffer and die like Jesus did. That is impossible. The following post makes it clear.

Dedication - God Sin cause the death of the wick or does God cause the death of the wicked? You have quoted that God execute justice - AMEN. But what does that mean? That He kills sinners in the end?

What killed Christ? SIN

A few quotes to keep in mind: "God destroys no man." "..the solemn truth that it was sin that caused death." "God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves." "I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way:" "We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself." (and it does not need to be inflicted on the sinner, that is intrinsic with sin) "His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." "Since it is impossible for God, consistently with His justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, He deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer: 'Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.' And another declares: 'They shall be as though they had not been.' Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. Thus will be made an end of sin, with all the woe and ruin which have resulted from it."

MM would have us believe that the death of Christ is not in kind to the death of a sinner in the end. But is this true? What killed Christ? SIN. What kills sinners in the end? SIN. EGW: "The death we deserved was suffered to come upon him." To be sure, it was far worse that sinners will suffer for he suffered for all of our sin.

NO, He did not. The first death is not the penalty of sin. I think this is one of your most amazing claims. Right there with God causing disease, sickness and death.

What killed Christ? SIN
True, our sins, in a sense we killed Him -- for it was for our sins He died.

But He also felt the wrath of God against sin, as I quoted in a previous post.

The problem is that you ASSUME everything will play out the same in the end as it played out against Christ at the cross.

But that is an assumption.

When Christ approaches the earth the second time, coming with all His angels, there will still be a lot of people alive on this earth --

The leaders of the earth with their armies will be there probably shooting rockets and other missiles to stop this huge approaching object. Revelation 19 shows them trying to fight against His coming, trying to stop His coming, but all the wicked die that day, while the righteous are caught up to meet Jesus in the air.

True, it's because of sin and their rejection of salvation that the unsaved all die that day, Christ died for each one of them offering them a chance for life -- they didn't need to die, in that sense indeed their chose to remain in sin destroyed them, but the direct physical cause of their death ON THAT DAY is directly related to Christ's coming.

They are very much alive and active as Christ is approaching the earth, but all end up dead.




The living wicked will be slain by the very coming and presence of Christ at the second coming.

Many die from the terrible earth quake, the hailstones and the other convulsions of the earth as all nature is turned upside down and in total commotion as Christ approaches. And those who survive those catastrophes die by the very brightness as if hit by lightning.


It is Christ's coming that ends all human (and animal) life on this earth.

His coming closes the curtains on life on earth for 1000 years. (except satan and his demons who are left in the ruins)

The Second coming is also NOT the end of sinners. All of they will be raised again. And at the second coming, not all sinners will be killed because many have ALREADY died. The second coming is not the end.

As for the "assumption", EGW tells us plainly that Christ died the death of a sinner. And is that death the first death? Nope. So yes, Christ's death does tell us how sinners will die.

The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is the “second death” that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC88 544.1}

In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves. “There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust;” [Acts 24:15.] “for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” [1 Corinthians 15:22.] But a distinction is made between the two classes that are brought forth. “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” [John 5:28,29.] They who have been “accounted worthy” of the resurrection of life are “blessed and holy.” “On such the second death hath no power.” [Revelation 20:6.] But those who have not, through repentance and faith, secured pardon, must receive the penalty of transgression,— “the wages of sin.” They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, “according to their works,” but finally ending in the second death. Since it is impossible for God, consistently with his justice and mercy, to save the sinner in his sins, he deprives him of the existence which his transgressions have forfeited, and of which he has proved himself unworthy. Says an inspired writer, “Yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be; yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” And another declares, “They shall be as though they had not been.” [Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16.] Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion. {GC88 544.2}

Covered with infamy, they sink into hopeless, eternal oblivion.

Not sure why you are changing the subject.

Of course Christ took our sins, our punishment and died so we need not die the eternal death. That has been the point of the thread -
God doesn't want us to fear Him as someone eager to see anyone experience the eternal death (or miss out on the second coming) because He has done everything possible to save us from eternal death and offer us eternal life.

We need to fear our own deceitful hearts that lead us to sin, and learn to abhor sin as we contemplate the price God paid to free us from the bondage of sin and give us eternal life. He WANTS us to LIVE, to be the people He created us to be -- pure and holy and enjoy eternal life with Him.

However -- you (APL) seem to think that no act of God would ever end the life of the rejecters of His mercy.

But at the second coming it is those who are alive but who have rejected God's gift of salvation and cleansing, choosing rather the ways of sin that will die. Their probation will be closed -- those who miss out at the second coming have sealed their eternal fate, even though they will demonstrate more fully after the 1000 years that God's judgment concerning their character was correct.

My post was pointing out that at Christ's coming it is a day of judgment, on that day those living and clinging to sin will die. It will be a day when judgment is executed. Yes, there is another judgment later, (it is not yet the second death for them) but the second coming is a very awesome and world shattering event when all God's faithful who have ever lived receive their glorious new bodies and meet Christ in the air, but there will be many alive on earth who rejected His mercy and they will die that day. And their death is directly related to the event of His coming as pointed out in the previous post.

Seems we went round and round on this one before.
The problem is we like to put things into neat little packages, close them and not see the full picture.


The first death is a penalty for sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.



What do those verses mean?
It's simple really --
The first death WAS the final death.
If Christ had not come and died and risen again, thus breaking open the locked prison house of death, then all who were in their graves were perished.

CHRIST TURNED THE FIRST DEATH WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE ETERNAL DEATH, INTO A SLEEP DEATH FOR WHICH THERE IS A RESURRECTION.

If Christ had sinned (which He did not) but if He had sinned, He would not have risen from that tomb. His death would have been eternal. And everyone else's "first" death, would have been eternal.

In this sense Christ EXPERIENCED the pangs of facing the eternal death. Not because of His own sin (He had no sin) but because of the sins of the whole human race placed upon Him.
Christ feared that these sins upon Him were too great for Him to ever rise again. In His human state he could not see the possibility of rising again. He could not see beyond the tomb. But He trusted in His Father even though it appeared like the end -- an eternal separation from His Father -- eternal death.

So -- Christ EXPERIENCED the torment of facing the second, or eternal death, but His actual death was the first death which up to that point in time WAS the eternal death.

But death could not hold Him -- He rose again!!!
By going through this experience He broke the locked doors of the first death, and all will rise again!

We don't have to be afraid of death -- for all in Christ will rise again to eternal life -- Just like Jesus did!

But those who reject Christ's gift of life will also rise again, but this time there is no substitute for the death before them -- they must pay it themselves and it is eternal.

Some of the wicked will experience a third death - those who come up in the special resurrection to witness Jesus' Second Advent. They will die a second time. When Jesus returns the third time, He will raise them up and they will die a third death. The difference between the first and second (and third) deaths is duration. The first death (and the second for some) is temporary. They will be raised to life. However, not so with the second death (the third for some) - it is eternal.

Jesus tasted, consumed, and conquered the judgment experience the wicked will suffer when they stand before God during the Great White Throne judgment. Law and justice was satisfied - before He voluntarily laid down His life and took it up again. Jesus did not yield up His life until after He accomplished the work which He came to do, until after He drained the dregs of the cup of woe and trembling.

"Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost. {DA 758.1}

The Scapegoat, not the Lord's Goat, dies with the sins of the saved and with their second death (the first death for some) in the lake of fire. His death does not make atonement for the sins of the saved. Jesus satisfied the just and loving demands of law and justice when He drained the dregs of the cup of woe and trembling.

Also, Jesus experienced emotional anguish unlike the wicked will experience it. There is no way we can compare the two different experiences. The GC quote above makes it clear the difference is as vast as the difference between God and man. Hardened sinners are incapable of suffering emotional anguish like Jesus did. Unlike Jesus, when they revisit their sins in judgment it has an affect upon them totally unlike the affect it had upon Jesus.

Revisiting their sins in judgment does not cause them to suffer emotional anguish like Jesus did. That is impossible. Their hearts are hardened beyond it. Instead of breaking their hearts, it infuriates them, causing them to turn upon their deceivers intending to tear them to pieces. But Jesus intervenes. He rains down fire from above and raises fire up from below - a global, seething lake of lava and oil and unquenchable fire. Sinners will suffer in duration and intensity proportionate to their sinfulness.

It is fire that punishes them and eventually consumes them - not the radiant light of God's person and presence, not an unveiled knowledge of their sins, not revisiting their sins in judgment. Otherwise, they could live forever if Jesus granted them access to the tree of life. Their sins cannot extinguish the life in them because they are impervious to its effects. Their conscience is seared and untouchable.

Why did you exclude the my supporting quote? Did the death of Christ make it possible for us to avoid the first death???? NOPE - not for most of the human race. Again - is the the death that Christ suffered just the first death? The death referred to in these scriptures is not that pronounced upon Adam, for all mankind suffer the penalty of his transgression. It is the “second death” that is placed in contrast with everlasting life. {GC88 544.1}

Yes, are are raised because of what Christ did. But not all are saved.

OK - is this experience inflicted on the wicked? By WHOM? Did the Father inflict this on the Son?

I agree they will not change, BUT - EVER KNEE will bow, EVERY TONGUE will confess. God will be vindicated - by all.

APL, you agree with my summary of your beliefs.

Yawn

Yawn!

Oops! My comment was posted in the wrong thread. My bad.


Jesus experienced emotional anguish unlike the wicked will experience it. There is no way we can compare the two different experiences.

The first death is a penalty for sin.
There is no denying that fact.
Christ came to break open the grave of the first death and made possible the resurrection.





What do those verses mean?

It's simple really --
Without Christ the first death WAS the final death.
If Christ had not come and died and risen again, thus breaking open the locked prison house of death, then all who were in their graves were perished. There was no hope of resurrection.

CHRIST TURNED THE FIRST DEATH WAS THE ETERNAL DEATH, INTO A SLEEP DEATH FOR WHICH THERE IS A RESURRECTION.

If Christ had sinned (which He did not) but if He had sinned, He would not have risen from that tomb. His death would have been eternal. And everyone else's "first" death, would have been eternal.

In this sense Christ EXPERIENCED the pangs of facing the eternal death. Not because of His own sin (He had no sin) but because of the sins of the whole human race placed upon Him.
Christ feared that these sins upon Him were too great for Him to ever rise again. In His human state he could not see the possibility of rising again. He could not see beyond the tomb. But He trusted in His Father even though it appeared like the end -- an eternal separation from His Father -- eternal death.

So -- Christ EXPERIENCED the torment of facing the second, or eternal death, but His actual death was the first death which up to that point in time WAS the eternal death.

There would have been no need for "a second death" IF Christ had not conquered the first death. For the first death would have been eternal death for everyone. The second death is the ETERNAL death -- there is NO RETURN from that death.



But death could not hold Him -- Christ rose again!!!
Do you believe Christ rose again??

By facing death and experiencing the anguish of feeling it would be eternal due to sins placed upon Him, He broke the locked doors, the deadly reality of the first death for everyone -- and all will rise again!

We don't have to be afraid of death -- for Christ opened that door, and all will live again! All in Christ will rise again to eternal life -- Just like Jesus did! Never to die again.

Those who reject Christ's gift of life will also rise again, but this time there is no substitute for the death before them -- they must pay it themselves -- the second death is eternal -- there is no return.

Agree -- there are BIG differences:

Jesus had an intimate, very close relationship with His Father.
The wicked have no real love for God.

The separation from His Father caused by the burden of sin placed on Jesus, caused our Lord terrible anguish. Christ's keenest anguish was a sense of His Father's displeasure. His mental agony because of this was of such intensity that man can have but faint conception of it.
This was the chief cause of His (literal) broken heart.

The wicked will not feel that anguish over separation from God.
They have no desire to be with God in His righteous kingdom, following His ways.

Jesus abhorred sin, bearing it was like having all the garbage of the world dumped upon Him -- a terrible, loathsome load.

The wicked will have no real regret for their sin, they are only in distressing sorrow because they realize they have lost all. They do have a vivid experience of God's displeasure for sin.

The main point where there is similitude between Christ's suffering and the suffering of the lost in the end, is facing the reality that this is the END.
For Christ, He experienced that anguish because the sins of the world seemed to Him to make it impossible that He would rise again, it seemed impossible that He would ever be with His Father again, or that His sacrifice would be acceptable.
But there was still the intellectual knowledge that He would rise.

For the unsaved at the end, they will experience the anguish realizing they have forfeited eternal life, and that they will cease forever to exist. They sense the displeasure of God for their sins. For them at that time there is no more hope.

But totally UNLIKE Christ when plagued with thoughts of hopelessness, instead of committing themselves to God, (as Christ did) they respond to their hopelessness in rage and violence.

In mercy God ends it all -- wipes the world clean of all traces of sin and creates a new heaven and a new earth for all those Who responded to His grace and mercy and transforming power.

Rather than argue as to just how the wicked die in the end, (for we all agree they do die) --

It would be so much more profitable to focus on what Christ has done that we may live forever with Him.

That is the gospel -- the GOOD NEWS -- Christ has done so much that we may live! May none of us, or our loved us miss out at the second coming, and may we all with joy ascend with Christ to His Father's house -- on such the second death has no power.

Dedication, we are in agreement. Thank you for sharing.

APL, the idea that sin will eventually consume and destroy the wicked after Jesus resurrects them is not supported in the Bible or the SOP.


The glory of God does not consume the wicked.


Again, the glory of God does not consume the wicked.


Again, neither the glory of God nor a knowledge of their sins in judgment consume the wicked.


Again, neither the glory of God nor a knowledge of their sins in judgment consume the resurrected wicked. Instead, they are full of rage and employ their energy to fight among themselves.


Had Jesus not intervened, the wicked would have slaughtered themselves in fits of rage and battle. Not until Jesus rains down fire from above and raises fire up from below do the wicked begin to suffer in duration and intensity in proportion to their sinfulness. Otherwise, if they had access to the tree of life they could live forever. Sin cannot consume and destroy them because their conscience is seared.

Read this comment on another forum:

Emma El Badawy, a Middle East expert from the University of Exeter, told Sky News: “Burning someone alive is absolutely barbaric and it is expressly forbidden in Islam.”

So, these extremist Muslims are barbaric for doing it.

The Medieval Catholic Church was cruel, revolting and Satanic for doing it.

But we applaud God for doing it.

Go figure.

Islamic Jihadists withdraw their protection and permit innocent women and children to be murdered. But when God does it, APL says - God respects free choice.

A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

APL, did this fire come from Satan?

One cannot come into the direct presence of the Holy God of the universe who "dwells in the light which no man can approach "
(1 Tim. 6:16) in a sinful condition and live.

The sanctuary service gives us the pattern as to how we CAN come into to God's presence and live -- for eternity!

And there is also the case of Aaron's sons as to what happens when someone thinks they can rashly enter into God's presence on their own terms.

In order for us to "meet God" where His glory is present, we need to come through the "door", not by any other way.
Jesus says "I am the door John 10:7

The next step is the altar of sacrifice.
Jesus represents the Lamb sacrificed for our sins offering us forgiveness.
Next is the laver, for cleansing, accepting Christ's death for our sins, we also through baptism, reckon ourselves as dying to sin, and rising to a new cleansed life.

No priest could go into the sanctuary without these preparatory measures. Now those two men, probably did SOME of the motions, but they were "drunk" (with sin) and they obviously skipped the altar of sacrifice and took common fire, symbolic of self righteousness as they entered the temple.

The whole episode is symbolic that anyone who thinks they will stand before God on that last day in their sinful, yet self-righteous condition will find the fire of God to be a consuming fire.

But again why always focus on that?

Is our only reason for religion to escape punishment?




The Lord wants us to serve Him because HE LOVES US and wants the very best for us, and desires our love and friendship. He wants us to be saved, not lost.

He took our sins upon Himself so we do not have to die eternally. He clothes us with His robe of righteousness. He sends His Holy Spirit to convict us and lead us to Him for forgiveness, cleansing, and Who empowers us to walk in His ways. He has provided everything we need to stand on that day.

He wants us to obey because WE WANT to, (not because we fear) But because we enjoy His ways, and enjoy His fellowship, we want to walk with Him in righteousness, now and eternally.

Very interesting fire was it not Eliphaz, I mean MM? Their cloths were intact. Amazing fire indeed!

You are not even comparing the same things, are you Eliphaz, I mean, MM?

And why can't we come into God's presence in our sinful condition? Because it is not LEGAL to do so? He then has the LEGAL right to burn you up?

Yes, He want our love. Can love be commanded? What will He do if we reject His love? Burn us alive? That is what MM and asygo and dedication have said. And God can LEGALLY do it. Because He is LOVE?

Sin kills. The consequences of sin are intrinsic. That is why Sin is evil. It is not a legal problem. It is a REAL problem.

We are to come to Christ in our sinful condition to be forgiven, and cleansed.

There is a huge difference in us coming to Christ now and accepting him as our Lord and Savior -- (this we need to do, this we are invited to do) for all heaven is working for our salvation, not for our destruction.

And remember -- it is Christ's presence in all it's full glory that executes judgment. And no one in a sinful condition can be in that presence and live when His full glory, with the glory of the Father is revealed.

The second coming already shows this to be true.
And those who miss out on the second coming, already have missed out on eternal life.

There are two roads open for everyone.

1) Come to Christ NOW and receive His gift of salvation, freedom from sin, accept His cleansing and His peace, and promise of eternal life. And at His coming joyfully rise to meet Him and exclaiming, This is my God! My Friend, my Savior.

OR

2) Find yourself standing before the throne of Christ in all His glory, and with agonizing clearance see what Christ did to save you, but you rejected the gift of life, spurned it and now as you look at your mortal body (still with the traces that cased your first death) you realize all is lost. Everyone around you is getting very violent, maybe even blaming you for their lost condition -- but the terrible scene ends quickly as fire hot enough to melt stones puts a quick end to it all.

What does it matter WHERE that fire comes from --
The fact remains it will be there, and it will be literal and it will envelop the whole earth -- the only place of safety is in that city of God with Jesus.
We need to come to Christ NOW, for He wants to pull us out of the ways of sin, like a brand plucked from the burning,

Sin is both the transgression of God's law (legal issue) and it is intrinsically evil, malicious, and destructive (real problem). And Christ has the remedy to save both legally as well as cleansing and transforming the character.

Job, I mean APL, you cannot adequately defend your beliefs so you resort to name calling. How crude.

You yourself talked about GMO recently. Was that not in connection of God's Law? Was that a legal transgression you were talking about?

God's law is INTRINSIC. The results of transgression is INTRINSIC.

It is true that all suffering results from the transgression of God's law, but this truth had become perverted. Satan, the author of sin AND ALL ITS RESULTS, had led men to look upon disease and death as proceeding from God [as Eliphaz said to Job],--as punishment arbitrarily inflicted on account of sin. Hence one upon whom some great affliction or calamity had fallen had the additional burden of being regarded as a great sinner. {DA 471.1}

The whole chapter in DA is excellent, and I must quote some more:

Thus the way was prepared for the Jews to reject Jesus. He who "hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows" was looked upon by the Jews as "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted;" and they hid their faces from Him. Isaiah 53:4, 3. {DA 471.2}

God had given a lesson designed to prevent this. The history of Job had shown that suffering is inflicted by Satan, and is overruled by God for purposes of mercy. But Israel did not understand the lesson. The same error for which God had reproved the friends of Job was repeated by the Jews in their rejection of Christ. {DA 471.3}

Yep - I think it will come down to this question: is God's Law intrinsic and all its results, or is it extrinsic and the punishment must be inflicted on the account of sin. That I think is the question.

Job? - I'm honored, more that I should be however for I am not blameless like Job. Eliphaz believed as you do MM - that God causes sickness, disease and death. That punishment was inflicted by God on the guilty. Read about it in the book of Job.

Geez, MM, this is the second time in a week you've been called something.

Ded- There are two roads open for everyone.

1) Come to Christ NOW and receive His gift of salvation, freedom from sin, accept His cleansing and His peace, and promise of eternal life. And at His coming joyfully rise to meet Him and exclaiming, This is my God! My Friend, my Savior.

OR

2) Find yourself standing before the throne of Christ in all His glory, and with agonizing clearance see what Christ did to save you, but you rejected the gift of life, spurned it and now as you look at your mortal body (still with the traces that cased your first death) you realize all is lost. Everyone around you is getting very violent, maybe even blaming you for their lost condition -- but the terrible scene ends quickly as fire hot enough to melt stones puts a quick end to it all.

I am truly amazed and astonished how short sighted these reasons are! This can only show that Christ is not working here.

First of all there is much much more than "her" two ways. Let us look at what is required of us to know Christ and have life.

To begin let's look at Inspiration, not private interpretations.

There are three ways in which the Lord reveals His will to us, to guide us, and to fit us to guide others. How may we know His voice from that of a stranger? How shall we distinguish it from the voice of a false shepherd?

God reveals His will to us in His word, the Holy Scriptures. His voice is also revealed in His providential workings; and it will be recognized if we do not separate our souls from Him by walking in our own ways, doing according to our own wills, and following the promptings of an unsanctified heart, until the senses have become so confused that eternal things are not discerned, and the voice of Satan is so disguised that it is accepted as the voice of God." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.512)

We do indeed come before Christ and accept His "gift" of salvation. But it is only the beginning. Once acceptance is shown, a REFORMED life MUST take place. SOP explains--

"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them.It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement.Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.214)

Now did we catch that? I mean really understand here? It shows that one habitual sin ( a spot or stain) unless it is "overcome" (Rev.21:7) will keep us out of heaven!

So it's not about cheap grace, it's about faith AND works. For one without the other is DEAD!(James 2:17)

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

This is like an atheist posting on a Christian forum - Let's look at the scientific facts, not the Bible. This a SDA forum. The first six rules are:

1 - You must either be a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church or a friend of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to become a member of Maritime SDA OnLine.

2 - You must be a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to have access to some of the private forums. Exceptions may be granted under special circumstances.

3 - You must have an active email address to become and remain a member of Maritime SDA OnLine.

4 - No email address can be posted without permission of addressee, except for emails already published on the Internet.

5 - You must either believe in or respect the 28 fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church

6 - You must also either believe in or respect one of those 28 fundamental beliefs regarding Ellen G White as a messenger of God for both her time and our time.

Yeah, there are three or four people here, besides you, who stoop to name calling and character assassination. It doesn't make sense to me. Why bother? It serves no purpose. The Moderators here are more tolerant and lenient than I prefer . . . but hey, to each his own, right!

Well, as J.R. said - "I do find it advantageous from time to time."

I assume you believe the "amazing fire" came from God in the Most Holy Place. I doubt you believe it came from Satan in the Most Holy Place. Although I also doubt you will ever confirm your belief one way or the other.

So, if my assumption about your belief is true - You believe "amazing fire" came from God in the Most Holy Place and somehow caused the deaths of Nadab and Abihu. However, I suspect you believe the "amazing fire" somehow allowed sin to cause their deaths.

Naturally, then, it makes me wonder - What do you believe about fire and the cause of death in the following stories:


So, what do you believe about fire and the cause of death in the stories posted above? I am pretty certain you are not going to answer my question or attempt to explain the stories. Most likely you will post the Ministry of Healing quote that says - "Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the Restorer."

However, this quote does not explain the fire or the cause of death. You believe sin is what causes sinners to suffer and die. But that doesn't explain the fire or what part it played (if any) in the deaths quoted above. It would be nice if you explained what you believe about the fire and the cause of death.

Not all that mocks rocks! "Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee." It's hard to be patient when mocked by . . . (mules).

There are two roads open for everyone -- only two roads,

1) Come to Christ, for forgiveness, cleansing, and freedom from sin, and enjoy life eternal with Him.

OR

2) Choose to depend on self and do things one's own way spurning Christ's gift of salvation and what He did to save you, and find one's self outside the city of God at the final destruction of sin.

Everything else falls into those to two options.

Class #2 option has many little side roads for the "do it myself" deceptions;
whether that side road is thinking one can perfect or reform themselves, or whether that side road thinks they can continue to actively live outside God's will and still think they are "in Christ". Or whether they don't want anything to do with God -- it's all the same wide road --
Broad is the way that leads to destruction.

Road #1
But narrow is the way that leads to life and few there are that find it. -- That's because there is only one door -- Christ is that door and Christ is the way, Christ is everything on that narrow path, and self is surrender to Him. It is only because of His death and resurrection that we can be justified, it is only as we surrender to His will and walk with Him daily, hourly that we are changed to reflect His character traits. It is ONLY in Christ that there is salvation.

So sorry my friend MM for your surface reading and comments. I realize I may have hurt your feelings, which if I did--my apologizes.

If you'll attentively notice I was responding to DED's post , of which no Scripture was used, only private interpretations.

So your words "This is like an atheist posting on a Christian forum - Let's look at the scientific facts, not the Bible." have zero semblance of truth. Be careful my friend as we are strictly told in Isaiah to be truthful and no part of deception should come into our lips (or in this case--typing our words)

"For He said, "Surely they are My people, children who will not lie. So He became their Savior." (Isaiah 63:8)

Lastly, do you agree that these BIBLICAL/SOP quotes have much to do with our salvation?

There are three ways in which the Lord reveals His will to us, to guide us, and to fit us to guide others. How may we know His voice from that of a stranger? How shall we distinguish it from the voice of a false shepherd?

God reveals His will to us in His word, the Holy Scriptures. His voice is also revealed in His providential workings; and it will be recognized if we do not separate our souls from Him by walking in our own ways, doing according to our own wills, and following the promptings of an unsanctified heart, until the senses have become so confused that eternal things are not discerned, and the voice of Satan is so disguised that it is accepted as the voice of God." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.512)


"Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them.It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement.Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.214)


"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

"The work of Christ's servants is not merely to preach the truth; they are to watch for souls..They are to reprove, rebuke, exhort with long-suffering and doctrine." (5 T, p.237)

"Unfaithful watchmen hindered the progress of the work of God. As the people were roused, and began to inquire the way of salvation, these leaders stepped in between them and truth, seeking to quiet their fears.." (4 SP, p.2226)

"Those who rise up against warning and reproof, and seek by their jests, their smart speeches, or their deceptions, to make of no effect the plain words of reproof prompted by the Spirit of God, will find, in the great day of final reckoning, an account against them which they will not wish to meet." ( ST, 10-4-1883)

Oops! My bad. I misread it.

There was scripture, just not referenced.
There are ONLY two paths -- ONLY TWO classes and that is scriptural.

There are NOT three or four or more.
As we see below:

But is GLL saying there are other classes and other ways? Is he saying there are more ways to eternal life?
Not just:
1. come to Christ and His saving power or
2. walk down on the road that leads to destruction?


What then is GLL's third option???? -- Is it to perfect yourselves in our own strength and thus get to enjoy a supposedly earthly "peaceful" kingdom over there in Palestine with a human "antitypical David" as king and have all nations flowing to you for salvation --
all prior to the actual second coming of Christ?




My option #1 (which is Biblical) includes Christ's cleansing, transforming power, walking with Him in the paths of righteousness, and preparing us to welcome Christ at His second coming and go live in the NEW JERUSALEM -- the heavenly city with Christ forever.

GLL tries to make a case that I'm teaching sin doesn't need to be put away -- which is a false accusation on his part.

Those who don't come to Christ for forgiveness and cleansing, and don't, through the promptings and power of Holy Spirit, forsake sin, will be in group #2 not in group #1.

read the quotes I posted THAT is what I am teaching.

Ded-There are ONLY two paths -- ONLY TWO classes and that is scriptural.

No one is arguing that. There are the "Wheat and the Tares", the "Sheep and the Goats" the ones with the "wedding garments and without them". etc.

Ded- But is GLL saying there are other classes and other ways? Is he saying there are more ways to eternal life?

No, there is just two classes--the saved and unsaved, plain and simple. we don't have to get difficult here.

Ded- What then is GLL's third option???? -- Is it to perfect yourselves in our own strength and thus get to enjoy an earthly "peaceful" kingdom over there in Palestine with a human "antitypical David" as king and have all nations flowing to you for salvation --
all prior to the second coming of Christ?

You are mis-informed. I am saying that , as was quoted, we have a responsibility in choosing life. In other words, as the quotes show.For example--

"It is left with us to remedy the defects in our
characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement."

Who is it left with?

Notice the serious duty that is placed upon us. We have to do the remedial work. YES, it is by the Holy Spirit that we are empowered, but Inspiration shows here and elsewhere that a great responsibilty rests with us.

In Dedication's "two ways" explanations, I did not see any self responsibility and only a reliance on Christ to "do it all". Bringing this out so that the people see that her post was not covering the other important aspect to salvation- self responsibility.

"1) Come to Christ NOW and receive His gift of salvation, freedom from sin, accept His cleansing ...

Now some would read this and think He "cleanses" upon our acceptance of Him and stay that way until, as she says "And at His coming joyfully rise to meet Him and exclaiming, This is my God! My Friend, my Savior." But as the many quotes show it is our co=partnership work along with His that "cleans" us up.

Lastly, I would add that acceptance of Christ, initially, does give us a clean slate from the past. But the future rest upon us, in co-partnership with Him.

Strange -- in one thread I'm accused of legalism because I stress obedience to ALL of God's commandments, on this thread I'm accused of cheap grace, because I say we must come to Christ for our forgiveness, cleansing and a renewed life and that God loves us enough to work in and through and with us to do what it is impossible to do for ourselves -- that is to present us perfect before the throne of grace.

What conclusion can I reach?

The story of the two ditches -- people trying to pull us off the road into either of those two ditches and get our focus off Christ and unto ourselves.

If we are left to ourselves to cleanse ourselves from sin, we are ALL LOST, including you!
Yes, it is left to us to CHOOSE to surrender our sins, and we want to do so to bring glory to God, as it's only through His power that we gain the victory.

But never can we leave
Christ out of the equation --

EGW: The man who attempts to keep the commandments of God from a sense of obligation merely--because he is required to do so--will never enter into the joy of obedience. He does not obey.

Keeping the comments because you are LEGALLY required to do so, is actually not keeping the commandments. The Jews of Christ day "kept" the Sabbath. But did they really? And they kept the correct day! No confusion as to man-made datelines.

"Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Matthew 6:10.

The will of God is expressed in the precepts of His holy law, and the principles of this law are the principles of heaven. The angels of heaven attain unto no higher knowledge than to know the will of God, and to do His will is the highest service that can engage their powers. {MB 109.1}

But in heaven, service is not rendered in the spirit of legality. When Satan rebelled against the law of Jehovah, the thought that there was a law came to the angels almost as an awakening to something unthought of. In their ministry the angels are not as servants, but as sons. There is perfect unity between them and their Creator. Obedience is to them no drudgery. Love for God makes their service a joy. So in every soul wherein Christ, the hope of glory, dwells, His words are re-echoed, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. {MB 109.2}

Only those that are obedient to the law will be admitted into heaven. But it is not a LEGAL problem what needs to be solved. It is a real problem. Sin is what we need to fear, not God. Christ came to save us from our Sins, not from execution by God. We have no reason to fear God. The Father is exactly as Jesus has shown Him to be.

Yes, you have clearly presented the truth about putting sin away and living in harmony with the truth as it is in Jesus.

I assume you believe the "amazing fire" came from God in the Most Holy Place. I doubt you believe it came from Satan in the Most Holy Place. Although I also doubt you will ever confirm your belief one way or the other.

So, if my assumption about your belief is true - You believe "amazing fire" came from God in the Most Holy Place and somehow caused the deaths of Nadab and Abihu. However, I suspect you believe the "amazing fire" somehow allowed sin to cause their deaths.

Naturally, then, it makes me wonder - What do you believe about fire and the cause of death in the following stories:


So, what do you believe about fire and the cause of death in the stories posted above? I am pretty certain you are not going to answer my question or attempt to explain the stories. Most likely you will post the Ministry of Healing quote that says - "Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the Restorer."

However, this quote does not explain the fire or the cause of death. You believe sin is what causes sinners to suffer and die. But that doesn't explain the fire or what part it played (if any) in the deaths quoted above. It would be nice if you explained what you believe about the fire and the cause of death.

Do you believe the quote from MH? If you did, then you'd be open to understand the truth about the character of God. God is not the executioner of the sentence against transgression. What is the sentence? The second death.

This will be long and who knows, maybe my last response to you MM. You'd like that!!

What experience did the most righteous men in the Bible have when they came into the presence of God? The immediate presence of God is tortuous to some, but not because He is a literal fire that burns up flesh. God has no hostility towards any of his rebellious children. This is rather describing a psychological discomfort that involves intense guilt and shame as sinful and selfish individuals enter into the presence of a God who is selfless love personified.

Isaiah 6:1-6 It was in the year King Uzziah died that I saw the Lord. He was sitting on a lofty throne, and the train of His robe filled the Temple. 2 Attending Him were mighty seraphim, each having six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew. 3 They were calling out to each other, "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Heaven's Armies! The whole earth is filled with His glory!" 4 Their voices shook the Temple to its foundations, and the entire building was filled with smoke. 5 Then I said, "It's all over! I am doomed, for I am a sinful man. I have filthy lips, and I live among a people with filthy lips. Yet I have seen the King, the LORD of Heaven's Armies." 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burnin
g coal he had taken from the altar with a pair of tongs.

Notice that Isaiah did not exclaim, "God, you are so bright and hot that I am burning up!" No. Isaiah saw the beautiful glory and goodness of God and by contrast saw with an intense clarity his own sinfulness.
His lips were touched with a burning coal, but notice again the symbolism involved as the coal was not harmful to his flesh:

Isaiah 6:7-8 He touched my lips with it and said, "See, this coal has touched your lips. Now your guilt is removed, and your sins are forgiven." 8 Then I heard the Lord asking, "Whom should I send as a messenger to this people? Who will go for us?" I said, "Here I am. Send me."

The intense shame and guilt experience by Isaiah is what God described to Moses with these words:

Exodus 33:20 But you may not look directly at My face, for no one may see Me and live."

God was not saying, "If you look at My face, I’ll kill you!" Rather, God is saying, "In your state of rebellious separation from My kingdom of other-centered love, the full face-to-face exposure to My goodness and love is actually harmful." The destructive element of beholding God face-to-face does not come from God, but rather from within the sinner. It is intrinsic to the sinful condition.

Moses saw the glory of God at the burning bush. But were the leaves of the bush consumed? God’s fiery presence apparently does not burn leaves.

Exodus 24:16-17 And the glory of the LORD settled down on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it for six days. On the seventh day the LORD called to Moses from inside the cloud. 17 To the Israelites at the foot of the mountain, the glory of the LORD appeared at the summit like a consuming fire.

Was the mountain top burned up? Was there any forest fire?

God’s glory also filled the tent in the wilderness, but is there ever a record of the sheets spontaneously bursting into flames?

Job also saw God in all his glory, and like Isaiah he was acutely aware of his own guilt:

Job 42:5-6 In the past I knew only what others had told me, but now I have seen you with my own eyes. 6 So I am ashamed of all I have said and repent in dust and ashes.

Nadab and Abihu

"Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu…disobeyed the LORD by burning before Him the wrong kind of fire…So fire blazed forth from the LORD’s presence and burned them up, and they died there before the LORD. Then Moses said to Aaron, ‘This is what the LORD meant when He said, 'I will display My holiness through those who come near Me. I will display My glory before all the people.’ And Aaron was silent. Then Moses called for…Aaron’s cousins…He said to them, ‘Come forward and carry away the bodies of your relatives from in front of the sanctuary to a place outside the camp.’" Leviticus 10:1-4

If you were Aaron’s cousins and were given the command to carry them outside the camp, what would you predict would be left of their bodies? What would you predict would be left of their clothes?

Read on!

So they came forward and picked them up by their garments and carried them out of the camp, just as Moses had commanded." Leviticus 10:5

Is there a more righteous saint in the Bible than Daniel? But yet, his experience in the presence of God had this effect:

Daniel 10:5-10 I looked up and saw a man dressed in linen clothing, with a belt of pure gold around his waist. 6 His body looked like a precious gem. His face flashed like lightning, and his eyes flamed like torches. His arms and feet shone like polished bronze, and his voice roared like a vast multitude of people. 7 Only I, Daniel, saw this vision. The men with me saw nothing, but they were suddenly terrified and ran away to hide. 8 So I was left there all alone to see this amazing vision. My strength left me, my face grew deathly pale, and I felt very weak. 9 Then I heard the man speak, and when I heard the sound of his voice, I fainted and lay there with my face to the ground. 10 Just then a hand touched me and lifted me, still trembling, to my hands and knees.

The friends that Daniel was with fled in panic, while Daniel is described as acutely aware of his own sinfulness, "…my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8

What does the angel immediate tell Daniel? "God loves you!" Daniel 10:12

Before His rebellion, Lucifer flourished in the presence of God’s glory:

"I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire." Ezekiel 28:14

"The stones of fire" is describing the very presence of God and the sinless Lucifer dwelt unharmed with his Creator. But notice very carefully the description of Satan’s destruction just a few verses later:

Ezekiel 28:18 You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire out from within you, and it consumed you. I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

The destructive element in God’s presence does not emanate from God, but rather from within the sinner. The destructive "fire" that will end of the life of Satan comes from within his own selfish and rebellious heart.

Read Isaiah:

Isaiah 33:11-15 You Assyrians produce nothing but dry grass and stubble. Your own breath will turn to fire and consume you. 12 Your people will be burned up completely, like thornbushes cut down and tossed in a fire. 13 Listen to what I have done, you nations far away! And you that are near, acknowledge My might!" 14 The sinners in Jerusalem shake with fear. Terror seizes the godless. "Who can live with this devouring fire?" they cry. "Who can survive this all-consuming fire?" 15 Those who are honest and fair, who refuse to profit by fraud, who stay far away from bribes, who refuse to listen to those who plot murder, who shut their eyes to all enticement to do wrong-

This passage is describing the fear and dread that the wicked experience in the presence of God who appears to them as "the consuming fire" and the "everlasting burning". They ask, "Who of us can dwell with the everlasting burning?" But notice that the reply comes that "He who walks righteously and speaks what is right" can dwell in the presence of God!
This passage in Psalms also describes the two classes of people that will one day stand in God’s presence:

Psalms 68:2 Blow them away like smoke. Melt them like wax in a fire. Let the wicked perish in the presence of God.

For some, God’s presence is tortuous; for others it is a place of great joy and happiness. Malachi again shows this:

Malachi 4:1-2 The LORD of Heaven's Armies says, "The day of judgment is coming, burning like a furnace. On that day the arrogant and the wicked will be burned up like straw. They will be consumed-roots, branches, and all. 2 "But for you who fear My name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in His wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture.

When the fire of God is understood in this way, both heaven and hell are seen to be the same place. That is, both heaven and hell are a Person. For some, it is heaven to dwell in the presence of Love Personified; for others, it is hell.

God's love is very hot.

Song of Solomon 8:6-7 Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, its jealousy as enduring as the grave. Love flashes like fire, the brightest kind of flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, nor can rivers drown it. If a man tried to buy love with all his wealth, his offer would be utterly scorned.

John describes the individuals who will stand in the presence of God this way:

1 John 2:28 And now, dear children, remain in fellowship with Christ so that when He returns, you will be full of courage and not shrink back from Him in shame. 1 John 3:2 Dear friends, we are already God's children, but He has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He really is.

The central characteristic of God’s friends in the last generation is that they will see God as he really is. That is, they are fully settled in the picture of God that Jesus came to bring and by beholding the true God it is an unavoidable natural consequence that we are changed into His image:

2 Corinthians 3:18 So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord-who is the Spirit-makes us more and more like Him as we are changed into His glorious image.

EGW:

"This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is ‘alienated from the life of God.’ Christ says, ‘All they that hate Me love death.’ Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them." {DA 764}

"We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. The sinner brings the punishment upon himself. His own actions start a train of circumstances that bring the sure result. Every act of transgression reacts upon the sinner, works in him a change of character, and makes it more easy for him to transgress again. By choosing to sin, men separate themselves from God, cut themselves off from the channel of blessing, and the sure result is ruin and death." {Letter 96, 1896}

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown." {GC 56}

"Could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God" {GC 542, 543}.