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Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? #171736
02/10/15 01:14 AM
02/10/15 01:14 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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What does Paul mean in this verse:

Galatians 4:22-26 “For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar-- for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.”


How does Mt. Sinai give birth to bondage?

Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: dedication] #171739
02/10/15 03:49 AM
02/10/15 03:49 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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These Are the Two Covenants." How are the two covenants discribed?


By two women: Hagar and Sarah;
By two cities: Old and New Jerusalem
By two sons: son born by the flesh, and son born by promise.

Hagar is likened to Mount Sinai and old Jerusalem, "which gives birth to bondage."
Hagar, as a slave could only give birth to children who would also be slaves.
Her son was born after the flesh -- by human devising and effort.

In like manner the law that God spoke from Sinai, can not give birth to free people. It holds people in bondage. "For by the law is the knowledge of sin." And "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." No human works, even when implementing God's laws will free us from the bondage of sin.



Sarah is likened to the New Jerusalem, which is free.
Sarah, was not a slave, but free, thus she gives birth to free children.
Isaac was a son of promise when all human resources had failed.

In the spiritual sense this refers to "born again" children of God, it's the promise of God in the renewed life! Free (forgiven and cleansed). The freedom which that covenant gives is the freedom of the Spirit, for Isaac was born of the Spirit. See Gal.4:29. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Cor. 3:17.

The born again experience comes only through Christ and the Holy Spirit.
We were buried with Christ through baptism, signifying the burying of the old man of sin, and just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also rise in newness of life to walk with Him! (See Romans 6)

Thus we reckon ourselves to be dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. No longer slaves to sin to yield to its temptations, but children of God and embracing His righteousness! Led by the Holy Spirit, we put to death the misdeeds of the flesh (see Romans 8:4,13)
And we are to "walk in the light as He is the light, --walk with Christ always-- and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. (See 1 John 1:7)



This is the freedom which Christ bestows. He, Himself found His delight in the law of the Lord, because it was in His heart. Ps. 40:8.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom. 8:2.
We stand only by faith.

Originally Posted By: E.Waggonner
There is no trace of bondage in this freedom. It is liberty of soul, liberty of thought, as well as liberty of action. It is not that we are simply given the ability to keep the law, but we are given the mind that finds delight in doing it. It is not that we comply with the law because we see no other way to escape punishment; that would be galling bondage. It is from such bondage that God's covenant releases us. No; the promise of God, when accepted, puts the mind of the Spirit into us, so that we find the highest pleasure in obedience to all the precepts of God's Word. The soul is as free as a bird soaring above the mountain-tops. It is the glorious liberty of the children of God, who have the full range of "the breadth, and length, and depth, and height" of God's universe. It is the liberty of those who do not have to be watched, but who can be trusted anywhere, since their every step is but the movement of God's own holy law. Why be content with bondage, when such limitless freedom is yours? The prison doors are open; walk out into God's freedom. {March 22, 1899 EJW, SITI 196.9}

Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: dedication] #171750
02/10/15 05:44 PM
02/10/15 05:44 PM
APL  Offline
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The old covenant was based on the promises of the people.
The new covenant was based on the promises of God.

God's promises can not fail.
The people's promises were worthless and doomed to fail.

God's promises are freedom.
The people's promises are bondage.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: APL] #171798
02/13/15 05:01 AM
02/13/15 05:01 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
The old covenant was based on the promises of the people.
The new covenant was based on the promises of God.


That is a familiar explanation.

Yet, there seems to be TWO concepts when the term "old covenant" is used.

1. A very wrong type of covenant that people make with God.
Indeed this is the one that is based on the people's promises, and is basically legalism. At Sinai, the people jumped into this covenant declaring that they would do everything God asked of them, without them asking God to preform His transformation within them.

But is that really the covenant God was offering in the Old Testament? Or is it counterfeit covenant that people contrive? A counterfeit that is still very much in existence today.

2. The other use of the word "old covenant" seems to be based on the Old Testament gospel in shadows. Animal sacrifices a shadow of Christ the Lamb of God. Earthly priest a shadow of Christ who is now our High Priest, the earthly sanctuary a shadow of Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary.

In that sense it was still God's promise, it was the gospel, but it was just a shadow of the reality that would be brought by Christ.

The shadow could not actually take away sin and cleanse, it was just a promise that a Savior would come Who would ratify the covenant of promise and honor their faith and preform the promises.
By faith the ancient people of God accepted that promise and thus found cleansing and hope as they depended upon God's promises.

Yet we have the better part -- the reality, of Christ!


Quote:
Hebrews 9:1 Even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service, and an earthly sanctuary.
9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; in the first part, was the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the holy place.
9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant.
9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, one not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
9:12 Nor was it with the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the sprinkling of ashes of an heifer, sanctified the defiled, the purifying of the flesh:
9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: dedication] #171805
02/13/15 05:35 PM
02/13/15 05:35 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dedication
Yet, there seems to be TWO concepts when the term "old covenant" is used.
Yes. The people said, Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD has spoken we will do. This was the promises of the people. What was offered to them? The same as was offered to Abraham. The promise in the covenant with Abraham, which God's people were to keep, was that the law should be put into the heart. The children of Israel got it on tables of stone. Instead of by faith receiving "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus," (Romans 8:2 ) that is, upon "the living stone" (1 Peter 2:4) in the midst of the throne of God which would impart life to them, making them also living stones, they received the law only on cold, lifeless stones, which could give them nothing but death.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them.

Unbelief blinds the mind. It acts as a veil, to shut out the light. That veil over the face of the children of Israel was the unbelief that was in their hearts. So the veil was really over their hearts. "Their minds were blinded;" and "even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart." This is true not of the Jewish people, but of all who do not see Christ set forth in all the writings of Moses. A veil interposed between people and the light, leaves them in the shadow. So when the children of Israel spread out the veil of unbelief between themselves and "the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ," they only the shadow of it. They received only the shadow of the good things promised them, instead of the very substance.

God had said, "If ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests." But they never became a kingdom of priests. Only one tribe, the tribe of Levi, could have anything whatever to do with the sanctuary, and of that tribe only one family, that of Aaron, could be priests. It was certain death for any one not of the family of Aaron to presume to serve as priest in any way. Yet all who are really the children of God through faith in Christ Jesus, are "a royal priesthood," even "an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (1 Poter 2:5) This was what God promised to the nation of the Jews, at Sinai; but they never attained to it, because they did not keep His covenant of faith, but trusted in their own strength. Instead of being brought to the heavenly sanctuary which God's hands established, and being planted in it, they had a worldly sanctuary made by man, and were not allowed to go into even that. Instead of the ministration of the righteousness of God in Christ, they got only the ministration of death; for the very same thing which is a savour of life to them that believe, is a savour of death to them that do not believe.

But see the kindness and mercy of God even in this. He offered them the bright shining of His glorious Gospel, and they interposed a veil of unbelief, so that they could receive only the shadow. Yet that very shadow was an ever-present reminder of the substance. When a thick, passing cloud casts a shadow on the earth, we know, if we are not too dull to think, that it could not cast a shadow if it were not for the sun; so that even the cloud proclaims the presence of the sun. If therefore people nowadays, even professed Christians, were not as blind as the children of Israel ever were, they would be always rejoicing in the light of God's countenance, since even a cloud always proves the light to be present, and faith always causes the cloud to disappear, or else sees in it the bow of promise.

It was better for the Jews to have the law even as a witness against them, than not to have it at all. It was a great advantage to them in every way, to have committed unto them the oracles of God. (Romans 3:2) It is better to have the law present to upbraid us for our sins, and to point out the way of righteousness, than to be left entirely without it. So the Jews, even in their unbelief, had an advantage over the heathen, because the Jews had "the form of righteousness and of the truth in the law." (Romans 2:20) While that form could not save them, and only made their condemnation the greater if they rejected the instruction designed to be conveyed by it, yet it was an advantage in that it was a constant witness to them of God. God did not leave the heathen without witness, in that He spoke to them of Himself through the things that He had made, preaching the Gospel to them in creation; but the witness which He gave to the Jews, besides the other, was the very image of His own eternal realities.

Understand that as the Gospel was in full glory at Sinai, even so the law just as given at Sinai, is always present in the Gospel. If the law on the lifeless tables of stone was but a shadow, it was nevertheless an exact shadow, of the living law on the living stone, Christ Jesus. God would have all men know, wherever His voice is heard, that the righteousness which Christ's obedience imparts to the believer is the righteousness that is described in the law spoken from Sinai. Not one letter can be altered. It is an exact photograph of the character of God in Christ. A photograph is but a shadow, it is true; but if the light is clear it is an exact representation of some substance. In this case the light was "the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God," (2 Corinthians 4:4) so that we may know the ten commandments to be the literal and exact form of God's righteousness. They describe to us just what the Holy Spirit will print in living letters of light upon the fleshy tables of our hearts if they are but sensitised by living faith. (excerpts from EJW)


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: dedication] #171863
02/16/15 06:13 PM
02/16/15 06:13 PM
dedication  Offline OP
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Mt Sinai gives birth to bondage?

Some have taken these verses in Galatians four to infer that God's law gives birth to bondage, thus Jesus took it out of the way and nailed it to the cross.

However, this is a wrong concept.
The problem this world faces is DISOBEDIENCE to God's law that brought a bondage and slavery that has fastened the human race in terrible bondage of a totally destructive nature.

The idea that God would get rid of His law is totally inconsistent with any thought of God's righteous and holy government that produces the only society of harmony, peace, and blessed life! Any kingdom that gets rid of laws of righteousness will soon end up in abject slavery to sin and ultimate destruction.

So again -- how does Mount Sinai give birth to bondage?


The covenant at Sinai was intended to point out the sinfulness of humanity and the remedy of God’s abundant grace, which was typified in the sanctuary services.

Rightly understood it was to release them from the bondage of sin, just like God had released them from the bondage of Egyptian slavery.
Without God's intervention they would still be slave in Egypt, but God had wrought mightily in breaking those bonds and freeing them.

The bondage at Sinai results in people's ATTITUDE.
They hear God's law, and then instead of humbly confessing their sins, in repentance and seeking the Lord's forgiveness and cleansing, they simply say "OK, we will do it!"

It's like telling an actually slave the lifestyle of the freeman, and he says, "OK, I'll live like that" but he is still a slave and much the worse off because he is trying to live an impossible double life.

Paul makes it clear that role of the law is to drive us to Christ. Without Christ we are hopeless slaves to sin, and the law only emphasizes that all the more.
Even if we manage to clean up some of the more obvious actions that are contrary to the law, and manage to convince ourselves that this entitles us to a place in heaven, we are only deceiving ourselves and becoming all the more firmly anchored in our bondage, as it looks to self as the means of salvation and actually closes the door to Christ.

The escape from the bondage of sin is only in Christ.

Paul is dealing with the prevalent legalism.
The Judaizers claimed that they were the true descendants of Abraham and that Jerusalem—the center of Jewish Christianity and the law— was their mother, and any Gentile that desired to be part of this "society" had to be circumcised and undergo other rituals to become members.

The truth, Paul says, is the opposite. These legalists are not the sons of Abraham but are actually the illegitimate sons, like Ishmael.
In believing that circumcision, and membership in a certain "race" was their means of salvation, they were relying on “the flesh,”
Just like Abraham and Sarah looked to Hagar as the means to fulfil God's promise, and as the Israelites looked to their own strength to fulfil God’s law at Sinai, so anyone who looks to their own flesh to become sons and daughters of God, will only remain in bondage to sin -- indeed it will be deeper bondage because their reliance on the flesh stands in the way of their surrender to Christ.

Paul makes it clear that salvation and membership in God's family is not "by the flesh", not by natural descent, or initiation rituals, but, like Isaac, their birth into freedom was the effect of divine grace.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: APL] #180656
05/31/16 06:11 AM
05/31/16 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL
The old covenant was based on the promises of the people.
The new covenant was based on the promises of God.

God's promises can not fail.
The people's promises were worthless and doomed to fail.

God's promises are freedom.
The people's promises are bondage.
(bold emphasis mine)

What promises did the people make?

Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: dedication] #180657
05/31/16 06:18 AM
05/31/16 06:18 AM
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I think I understand your post dedication.

I found it very important to distinguish that the sanctuary service expressed God's promises to work for the salvation of mankind. A work that only God can do.

Yet, the Israelites and their leaders all worshipped the sanctuary service! They didn't treat it as a symbol of things to come, but, as actually atoning for their sins! The classic snare of legalism.

Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: APL] #180658
05/31/16 06:23 AM
05/31/16 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Dedication
Yet, there seems to be TWO concepts when the term "old covenant" is used.
Yes. The people said, Exodus 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD has spoken we will do. This was the promises of the people. What was offered to them? The same as was offered to Abraham. The promise in the covenant with Abraham, which God's people were to keep, was that the law should be put into the heart. The children of Israel got it on tables of stone. Instead of by faith receiving "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus," (Romans 8:2 ) that is, upon "the living stone" (1 Peter 2:4) in the midst of the throne of God which would impart life to them, making them also living stones, they received the law only on cold, lifeless stones, which could give them nothing but death.

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine to them.

Unbelief blinds the mind. It acts as a veil, to shut out the light. That veil over the face of the children of Israel was the unbelief that was in their hearts. So the veil was really over their hearts. "Their minds were blinded;" and "even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart." This is true not of the Jewish people, but of all who do not see Christ set forth in all the writings of Moses. A veil interposed between people and the light, leaves them in the shadow. So when the children of Israel spread out the veil of unbelief between themselves and "the light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ," they only the shadow of it. They received only the shadow of the good things promised them, instead of the very substance.

God had said, "If ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests." But they never became a kingdom of priests. Only one tribe, the tribe of Levi, could have anything whatever to do with the sanctuary, and of that tribe only one family, that of Aaron, could be priests. It was certain death for any one not of the family of Aaron to presume to serve as priest in any way. Yet all who are really the children of God through faith in Christ Jesus, are "a royal priesthood," even "an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ." (1 Poter 2:5) This was what God promised to the nation of the Jews, at Sinai; but they never attained to it, because they did not keep His covenant of faith, but trusted in their own strength. Instead of being brought to the heavenly sanctuary which God's hands established, and being planted in it, they had a worldly sanctuary made by man, and were not allowed to go into even that. Instead of the ministration of the righteousness of God in Christ, they got only the ministration of death; for the very same thing which is a savour of life to them that believe, is a savour of death to them that do not believe.

But see the kindness and mercy of God even in this. He offered them the bright shining of His glorious Gospel, and they interposed a veil of unbelief, so that they could receive only the shadow. Yet that very shadow was an ever-present reminder of the substance. When a thick, passing cloud casts a shadow on the earth, we know, if we are not too dull to think, that it could not cast a shadow if it were not for the sun; so that even the cloud proclaims the presence of the sun. If therefore people nowadays, even professed Christians, were not as blind as the children of Israel ever were, they would be always rejoicing in the light of God's countenance, since even a cloud always proves the light to be present, and faith always causes the cloud to disappear, or else sees in it the bow of promise.

It was better for the Jews to have the law even as a witness against them, than not to have it at all. It was a great advantage to them in every way, to have committed unto them the oracles of God. (Romans 3:2) It is better to have the law present to upbraid us for our sins, and to point out the way of righteousness, than to be left entirely without it. So the Jews, even in their unbelief, had an advantage over the heathen, because the Jews had "the form of righteousness and of the truth in the law." (Romans 2:20) While that form could not save them, and only made their condemnation the greater if they rejected the instruction designed to be conveyed by it, yet it was an advantage in that it was a constant witness to them of God. God did not leave the heathen without witness, in that He spoke to them of Himself through the things that He had made, preaching the Gospel to them in creation; but the witness which He gave to the Jews, besides the other, was the very image of His own eternal realities.

Understand that as the Gospel was in full glory at Sinai, even so the law just as given at Sinai, is always present in the Gospel. If the law on the lifeless tables of stone was but a shadow, it was nevertheless an exact shadow, of the living law on the living stone, Christ Jesus. God would have all men know, wherever His voice is heard, that the righteousness which Christ's obedience imparts to the believer is the righteousness that is described in the law spoken from Sinai. Not one letter can be altered. It is an exact photograph of the character of God in Christ. A photograph is but a shadow, it is true; but if the light is clear it is an exact representation of some substance. In this case the light was "the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God," (2 Corinthians 4:4) so that we may know the ten commandments to be the literal and exact form of God's righteousness. They describe to us just what the Holy Spirit will print in living letters of light upon the fleshy tables of our hearts if they are but sensitised by living faith. (excerpts from EJW)


Hmmm.

Maybe I misunderstand your point about the Ten Commandments being "an exact shadow". As important as the Moral Law is, it can not save us. It is very important that we not expect the Law to save us. I believe that was the mistake the Jews made at Mt. Sinai and afterward.

Re: Mt. Sinai gives birth to bondage? [Re: dedication] #180662
05/31/16 03:46 PM
05/31/16 03:46 PM
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This is a very good discussion Dedication. I mostly agree with what I quickly read of your comment.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Mt Sinai gives birth to bondage?

To add to what you've said.

Note that Paul starts his point by saying in Gal 4:1-3
4 "What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces[a] of the world."

Paul lays the foundation here by saying that the Israelites who just came out of Egypt (just spiritually born) were only underaged children. They all went tru Passover(the spiritual birth) before coming out of Egypt. Thus, they(Israelites) were like Ishmael having Egypt as their mother and the Lord as their Father. This is the type of all of us too when we start our spiritual walk for we are still very "fleshy" at that age and have lots to learn yet.

Paul says children (which the Israelites [or us] were at that point of their spiritual walk) are "underaged heirs" are no different that a slave -- meaning they have to obey orders from the voice of the Holy Spirit and learn "our Father's business" (like Jesus said at an young age when He also went thru the same steps of growth before entering His ministry at 30) until the Lord's "time set" comes. When we have grown into MATURE SONS, only then can we receive our INHERITANCE as Jesus went thru the same steps.

Basically we all need to start our spiritual growth as children by learning our Fathers business(his laws and how He applies them). In this learning process (which equal to the Pentecost Level of growth) we learn to hear & obey His voice which we refer as "walking by the Spirit".

No one can reach maturity (the Tabernacle level of faith growth) and become Heirs with Christ without first going thru the Pentecost learning process as a slave and learn to walk by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

Thus, that's what I understand what Paul means when Mt Sinai (=learning the law) gives birth to bondage, because at the Pentecost level of faith growth we are still underage heirs and "fleshy" individual that needs to learn our master's business(=the law) by hearing and obeying our master as we walk.

So I believe there's a place for the "old Covenant"(=Hagar type of relationship) and starting our walk by being an Ishmael types in God's plan. As I see it, all our walks begins as an "Ishmael-Hagar" types that leads to the better "new covenant" relationship.

A Sarah type of relationship is when we come to fully agree with His laws that He has personally taught us perferctly by removing all fleshy understandings and teachings of men from it.

I believe that to come to a point of true agreement is the essence of a Sarah type of relationship. We cannot reach agreement to the Lord's version of the law if we don't know it and have not been taught from Him while He removes all form of mis-understandings and deviation from it. Once we come to know His version of the law and agree with it -- that's only when it becomes written in our heart. Once written in our heart, that's when we become "free" for that part of the Law become second nature. We no longer need to have this law written in an exterior type of form of us to remind us what we have to do anymore.

As the laws gets written in our hearts one by one by the teachings of the Holy Spirit-- freeing us one step at the time thus we coming into agreement one step at the time --- this process forms and matures the NEW Creation Isaac type of Son in us. That New Creation is not of the flesh but conceived and growing by the Spirit. So according to the TYPE the Lord laid with Hagar and Sarah, Paul understand that only the son of the free woman will inherit the Kingdom and rule with Christ. No sons of the flesh will rule with Christ.


Blessings

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

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