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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: Bobryan]
#172158
03/01/15 03:14 AM
03/01/15 03:14 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
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Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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Since the embedded links seem to be getting removed by the text format of this board I am including the explicit link version here. http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_wi...ofs/ch_XIX.htmlWestminster Confession of Faith - Here we have section 19 of the Westminster - and of course you already have a few posts of mine quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith" "Westminster Confession of Faith" Chapter XIX Of the Law Of God Chapter XIX Of the Law of God I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[1] II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[2] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[3] III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[4] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[5] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[6] IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[7] V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10] VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20] VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22] Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1.[/quote]
Last edited by Bobryan; 03/01/15 03:17 AM.
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: Bobryan]
#172159
03/01/15 03:21 AM
03/01/15 03:21 AM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
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Posts: 793
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Fair warning -
This material is very difficult to refute for those who oppose the full TEN Commandments -- so don't be too surprised if very creative "tactics" get used in an effort to try to sidestep the details of the point made in the 7 point list statement, if you try this on other boards.
Many more - similar examples of the 7 points available if needed.
in Christ,
Bob
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: Bobryan]
#172160
03/01/15 03:34 AM
03/01/15 03:34 AM
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OP
SDA
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Here is a 10 point list that I don't know the SDA source for - and it has been modified somewhat by me...
"10 Reasons why the Sabbath is not just for Jews.
1) Adam and Eve were not Jewish. "God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it" (Genesis 2:3) before sin entered. "Sanctified" means "to be set apart for holy use." The only ones in the Garden of Eden for whom the Sabbath was “set apart” were Adam and Eve, who weren’t Jewish.
2) "The Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind made for the Sabbath." Mark 2:27. Jesus said this. It was "made" in the Garden of Eden before it was "written" down on Mount Sinai. The Sabbath was "made" for "man," not just Jews.
3) The other nine commandments are not "just for Jews." God wrote "Ten Commandments" on stone, not just nine (See Deut. 4:12, 13; Ex. 20). Does “Do not commit adultery,”“Do not murder,”“Do not steal,” and “Do not bear false witness” apply "only to Jews"? Eph 6:2 the 5th commandment is the “First Commandment with a promise” – only true of the unit of TEN. And this is applied to gentiles.
4) "The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." Exodus 20:10. God calls the Sabbath, "my holy day." Isaiah 58:13. The Bible never calls it "the Sabbath of the Jews." It isn’t their Sabbath, but God's.
5) The Sabbath commandment is for the "stranger" too. The fourth commandment itself says the "stranger" is to rest on the Sabbath. Exodus 20:10.“Strangers” are non-Jews, or Gentiles. Thus the Sabbath applies to them too.
6) Isaiah 56 said Gentiles should keep the Sabbath. "Also the sons of the stranger ... every one that keeps the Sabbath ... for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:6, 7. Thus the Sabbath is for Gentiles and “all people,” not just for Jews.
Is 56
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the Sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
7) "All" mankind will keep the Sabbath in the New Earth. In "the new earth ... from one Sabbath to another, shall all mankind come to worship before me, says the Lord." Isaiah 66:22, 23. Here God says that “all flesh” will be keeping the Sabbath in “the new earth.” If this is the case – and it is – shouldn’t we start now?
8) Gentiles kept the Sabbath in the Book of Acts. "The Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath ... Paul and Barnabas ... persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."' Acts 13:42, 43. Here saved-by-grace Gentiles kept the Sabbath (see also verse 44). See also Acts 17 and Acts 18... of them with Sabbath after Sabbath worship services and Gospel teaching in the synagogues.
9) "The law" [of Ten Commandments] is for "all the world," not just for Jews. Paul wrote these words. Read Romans 2:17-23; 3:19, 23.
10) Luke was a Gentile who kept the Sabbath. Luke was the only Gentile who wrote any New Testament books (he wrote The Gospel According to St. Luke and The Acts of the Apostles). Luke traveled with Paul and wrote, "On the Sabbath we went out of the city by a river side." Acts 16:13. It was the seventh-day Sabbath, the memorial of the creation (see Ex. 20:11). Both Luke and Paul knew it...
11) New Covenant “With the house of Israel” – and so for ALL the saints. Just as command not to worship false gods in Ex 20 – given to Israel freed slaves from Egypt – and also for all mankind.
Jer 31:
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Heb 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Ex 20
And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
[u][/u]
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: Bobryan]
#172165
03/01/15 05:26 AM
03/01/15 05:26 AM
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Global Moderator
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Very good points -- worth memorizing.
Point #8 concerning Acts 13:42-43 is very clear in the KJV, but the new translations have hidden it. Yet, the Greek supports the KJV.
Also there is Revelation 14--
The message of the first angel, while not actually mentioning the word "Sabbath" has strong connections to the fourth commandment, and this is reinforced by the description of the "saints".
Rev. 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: dedication]
#172166
03/01/15 03:10 PM
03/01/15 03:10 PM
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FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
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Point #8 concerning Acts 13:42-43 is very clear in the KJV, but the new translations have hidden it. Yet, the Greek supports the KJV. You'll have to be more specific regarding how "the new translations have hidden it." Hidden what, exactly? Any "new translation" I referenced included mention of the Sabbath, with the exception of the Living Bible, which is not really a translation but a paraphrase. Point Number Two: You seem to readily appeal to the original Greek to support your position here, yet completely ignore the fact that the Hebrew does not support a "therefore" in our other discussion, and insist on sticking with your unsupported interpretation of Isaiah 2. As mentioned previously, this kind of "Biblical scholarship" is highly suspect.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: dedication]
#172167
03/01/15 03:13 PM
03/01/15 03:13 PM
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OP
SDA
Active Member 2015
Senior Member
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
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Very good points -- worth memorizing.
Point #8 concerning Acts 13:42-43 is very clear in the KJV, but the new translations have hidden it. Yet, the Greek supports the KJV.
Also there is Revelation 14--
The message of the first angel, while not actually mentioning the word "Sabbath" has strong connections to the fourth commandment, and this is reinforced by the description of the "saints".
Rev. 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Which segways nicely into another segment of the "irrefutable" arguments in favor of the TEN Commandments. We do have a number of examples of quoting the full list of last 6 commandments in the NT - but what about the first four commandments? We have no such list for them in the NT as we have for the last 6. So a closer look is needed. in these examples the "lists" that the Bible gives in the NT focus almost entirely on the last 6 commandments and we do not see the first 4 commandments in a "list" in the NT. In fact we don't see the third commandment quoted at all in the NT. The THIRD commandment reads like this. Ex 20 7 “ You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain." Not even a part of that commandment is quoted in the NT! Can we use this as justification to bend-wrench the Bible to imagine that the 3rd commandment is "deleted if not repeated"? Or can we use this as justification to bend-wrench the Bible and "imagine" that only the last 6 commandments apply and not the first 4?? "No" says the Bible in James 2 " For HE WHO said" do not commit adultery also said the first 4 commandments. "No" says the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship- as we saw on recent posts -- thus demonstrating a level of "obvectivity" on this point never even attempted by the "at war against God's ten commandments" POV. SABBATH COMMANDMENT quoted. And how many times do we see God's Sabbath Commandment quote even in part in the NT? Origin – Gen 2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Exodus 20: 8 "" Remember The Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 "" Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 "" FOR in six days the LORD MADE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH, THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed The Sabbath day and made it holy. From Gen 2 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.Mark 2:27 “the Sabbath was MADE for Mankind – not mankind MADE for the Sabbath” And this reference to the Sabbath commandment in the NT – continues… Acts 4: 24So when they heard that, they raised their voice to God with one accord and said: "Lord, You are God, who made heaven and earth and the sea, and all that is in them, Acts 14:15 and saying, "Men, why are you doing these things? We are also men of the same nature as you, and preach the gospel to you that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, WHO MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM.(NASB shows the quote of Exodus 20) Rev 14: 7and he said with a loud voice, "Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters." Heb 4 4For He has said somewhereconcerning the seventh day: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS"; Heb 4:9 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Contrast the taking away of laws for animal sacrifice In Heb 10:4-12 " He takes away the first to establish the second" when it comes to animal sacrifices. vs REMAINING Ten Commandment Law But in Heb 4:9 " there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" when the OT law is not taken away. Same book - same author - two contrasting laws --- one taken away --- one that "remains".
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: dedication]
#172169
03/01/15 03:44 PM
03/01/15 03:44 PM
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FORMER-SDA
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Yet, the Greek supports the KJV. If you want to stick strictly with the Greek the phrase may be rendered either "next Sabbath" or "between the Sabbaths" meaning a week day. Check Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible or the SDA Bible Commentary, as well as others. The context in v. 44 makes it clear, however, that "the next Sabbath" is the preferred reading.
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: JAK]
#172214
03/03/15 04:35 AM
03/03/15 04:35 AM
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Point #8 concerning Acts 13:42-43 is very clear in the KJV, but the new translations have hidden it. Yet, the Greek supports the KJV. You'll have to be more specific regarding how "the new translations have hidden it." Hidden what, exactly? Any "new translation" I referenced included mention of the Sabbath, with the exception of the Living Bible, which is not really a translation but a paraphrase. Point Number Two: You seem to readily appeal to the original Greek to support your position here, yet completely ignore the fact that the Hebrew does not support a "therefore" in our other discussion, and insist on sticking with your unsupported interpretation of Isaiah 2. Point two: I have not ignored the word "therefore" -- you simply haven't paid attention to what I wrote. The word "for" isn't there either. Point one: Yes, the word Sabbath is mentioned, but the clear reference to Gentiles is missing in modern translations. They imply it was simply the people from the congregation that wanted Paul to come back the next Sabbath. KJV
13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. NIV
As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. ASV
And as they went out, they besought that these words might be spoken to them the next sabbath. ESV
As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath Compare it with the Greek. 1. The names Paul and Barnabas are not in the original in this sentence. The word is "Ioudaios" which is translated 193 times as "Jews" in scripture. KJV is correct in saying And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue 2. How about the Gentiles? "ethnos" is the word used, which is translated Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2 The scriptures uses the word to describe foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles. Again the KJV is corrected in saying THE GENTILES 3. "parakaleo" tends to have a more urgent meaning then simply "invited". "begged" is probably better translation. So indeed the KJV brings out the historic truth that after the Jews left the synagogue the Gentiles come begging Paul and Barnabas to teach them these truths the next Sabbath. And Paul doesn't tell them "Oh tomorrow is the Gentiles worship day, I'll teach you tomorrow" NO, it would be the NEXT Sabbath ....
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: JAK]
#172218
03/03/15 01:23 PM
03/03/15 01:23 PM
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OP
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Yet, the Greek supports the KJV. If you want to stick strictly with the Greek the phrase may be rendered either "next Sabbath" or "between the Sabbaths" meaning a week day. Check Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible or the SDA Bible Commentary, as well as others. The context in v. 44 makes it clear, however, that "the next Sabbath" is the preferred reading. "The next Sabbath" seems to be what everyone is agreed to. in Christ, Bob
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Re: Irrefutible evidence for all TEN Commandments remaining
[Re: dedication]
#172224
03/03/15 04:40 PM
03/03/15 04:40 PM
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Point one:
Yes, the word Sabbath is mentioned, but the clear reference to Gentiles is missing in modern translations. They imply it was simply the people from the congregation that wanted Paul to come back the next Sabbath.
...
2. How about the Gentiles?
"ethnos" is the word used, which is
translated Gentiles 93, nation 64, heathen 5, people 2
The scriptures uses the word to describe foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans, Gentiles.
Again the KJV is corrected in saying THE GENTILES
You're starting to sound like Green. Do you take the correct word based on numerical vote? To say, "they" or "the people", how is that incorrect? Gentiles are people too, you know. Who was Paul speaking to, who was included? How does it affect your faith whether it was Gentiles or Jews who wanted to meet the next Sabbath? Why does it matter to you that it had to be specific and specifically mentioned that it was Gentiles who were in the Temple? And I'm not sure by Gentiles listening to Paul mean they were "keeping the Sabbath". If visitors attend an SDA church, does that mean they are SDAs or "keeping the Sabbath"? What if they should dare come to a Wednesday night prayer meeting?! (metaxu - intervening, between) Complaining about version differences (if there even is), is nothing but a diversion and distraction from preaching the Gospel.
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