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Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: dedication] #172173
03/01/15 06:21 PM
03/01/15 06:21 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
...[a restored kingdom in Palestine is]...a very standard teaching of the evangelicals.


As is typical, I have found NO evidence that this is anywhere near a "very standard teaching" of anybody. It does appear, though, to be a fringe doctrine, shared by a cross-section of belief systems, some Christian, but more common to Jews.

So here is the challenge: Since you claim that it is a "very standard teaching of the evangelicals," please provide credible sources that support this claim.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172180
03/02/15 01:43 AM
03/02/15 01:43 AM
dedication  Offline
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You added words to my comment.
Where did I say a "restored kingdom"?

Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: dedication] #172181
03/02/15 02:37 AM
03/02/15 02:37 AM
J
JAK  Offline
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You're side-stepping the issue.
Man-up.


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172182
03/02/15 02:38 AM
03/02/15 02:38 AM
J
JAK  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
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Or, in this case, Lady-up.
ROFL ROFL ROFL


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172190
03/02/15 05:22 AM
03/02/15 05:22 AM
dedication  Offline
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The popular view of evangelical Christians is that some kind of righteous temporal kingdom will be established in Palestine.
Not all evangelicals believe the same -- there are theological wars in their realms as well.

But one general line is the most influential theological thought system shaping Christian concepts of the end times, especially in America -- and especially of the lay members.
And it is also the most common, I find, that Adventists who leave the Adventist view, embrace.

Even though there is a wide range in the details of this belief, there is a convergence on the location (Palestine) as the "headquarters" and general agreement that this temporal kingdom takes place while probation for the nations is still open.

General to the belief is that Christ will institute the Davidic kingdom on earth, there is success in Christianizing society to a large extend, and a golden age is achieved on earth prior to the judgment of all men and the fiery cleansing of the earth that is depicted in Rev 20.

It comes, with variations, under various titles:

Dispensationalism, Scofieldism, Darbyism,
PREMILLENNIALISM

Evangelical premillennialists generally believe the "Davidic kingdom" is established by Christ when He returns to earth and inaugurates the millennium reign which lasts for the one thousand years.


The premillennialists pretribulation dispensational group which have been made popular by the "Left Behind" films and books, think they will be raptured to heaven and thus escape the time of trouble which will fall upon all the "left behind" people. Seven years later they return to earth with Christ, and establish the Davidic kingdom where Christ reigns, and they reign with Him, over the nations for 1000 years.


Adventist doctrine, on the other hand, believes Christ returns before the millennium, but not to establish an earthly kingdom at that time. Only the righteous are alive and in heaven with Christ during the millennium. After the millennium and after the final judgment when the earth is made new
the unending earthly kingdom is established -- the capital is not old Jerusalem (which will be gone) but the New Jerusalem come down from heaven.







Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: dedication] #172198
03/02/15 01:05 PM
03/02/15 01:05 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
Cite your sources...


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: dedication] #172199
03/02/15 01:23 PM
03/02/15 01:23 PM
J
JAK  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
Although you made an attempt to "explain" the concept you have failed to demonstrate or support that it is either "the popular view" or a "standard teaching."


"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172213
03/03/15 03:55 AM
03/03/15 03:55 AM
dedication  Offline
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Sources -- my sources are from all over the place.
Are you that unfamiliar with the popular evangelical teachings being preached on Christian radio stations, presented in Christian films, and books?


You can do your own research -- just look up the words I gave you and you will find PLENTY OF SOURCES.

Do you know who John N. Darby, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Cyrus Scofield are?

Have you heard of Dispensationalism, Pretribulation, the Davidic Kingdom, Premillienalism?

Have you heard about the "Left Behind" Series (books and films)?


It's hard to find a book in a non-SDA Christian bookstore on Biblical Prophecy these days that isn't highly influenced by this theory.

Just recently bought a book on the "Four Blood Moons" by John Hagee, as I was curious to see what they had to say about that. This book has sold millions of copies! -- But I was disappointed as the book was full of dispensationalist endtime thinking.

(Of course the Catholic church vetoes the concept of a rapture and a future 1000 kingdom on earth, as it sees the millennium as the whole Christian era since Pentecost, and itself as representative of God on earth -- but they too are looking for a final fulfilment mainly of their primacy over all the earth)

"Starting in the 1970s, dispensationalists broke into the popular culture with runaway best-sellers. Since the mid-1990s, tens of millions of people who have never seen a prophetic chart or listened to a sermon on the second coming have read one or more novels in the Left Behind series, which has become the most effective disseminator of dispensationalist ideas ever.

You can try a book like:
"The last Days Handbook, by Robert Lightner

Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172217
03/03/15 07:37 AM
03/03/15 07:37 AM
dedication  Offline
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Here is the description of the whole chapter in Isaiah 2.
There is more in the chapter that shows the big picture.

Isaiah 2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

As we noted, this is concerning Judah and Jerusalem (in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah vs. 1:1)

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
Shown several times now -- the "last days" of Judah and Jerusalem's time of probation -- is -- the last days of the 490 years
.

The last days of Judah and Jerusalem occurred during Christ's life, death and resurrection.

“The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand,” had been the message of Jesus,(Matt. 4:17) John the Baptist (Matt. 3:2) and Jesus disciples (Matt. 10:7).

"And the “kingdom of God” which they had declared to be at hand, was established by the death of Christ." GC 346

the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it

“Christ's work was largely confined to Judea. But though his personal ministry did not extend to other lands, people from all nations listened to his teaching, and carried the message to all parts of the world. Many heard of Jesus by hearing of the wonderful miracles that he performed. And the knowledge of his suffering and death, which were to be witnessed by the large number in attendance at the Passover, would be spread from Jerusalem to all parts of the world. (RH Oct. 26,1897)

God's plan for Israel --
They were to be the light of the world.
And in many ways they were --
Christ, the Son of God, came to them establishing the kingdom of grace, and from Jerusalem that glorious message went out to the world.
But Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace.

But now to the "last days" of our history.

Jerusalem itself was left desolate because they rejected the kingdom of grace, wanting only a kingdom of honor over nations.

In the "last days" of our history, things haven't changed, people still want a temporal kingdom rather than the kingdom of grace.



Isaiah 2:2- "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the Lord."



Who is it that shall say these things?—

"Many nations [Isa. "Many people"]

So who is saying these things exactly?
Is it God, or is it "many nations" and "many people"?

In the last days then many people shall say that "the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."
In the last days its many people that will count on God rebuking many; and people will turn their spears (and other weapons) into pruning-hooks." In the last days many people shall say that "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

In the last days many people shall say, "they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid." And, too, they will say that "the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." All these things many people will say in the last days. (As we see in a similar passage in Micah)

Apparently, these prophets are predicting the counterfeit establishment of Christianity over the nations with headquarters in Jerusalem.

God's purposes will be counterfeited.
How do we come to such a conclusion?
Well, yes, read the CONTEXT!

First, these scripture do not say that people will actually walk in the law of the Lord, but that "many people shall go and say" that certain things shall take place. They will say it is what God said.

They establish "Christianity" over the mountains and hills -- that is taking control over governments and religion.
It is the political/religious counterfeit mountain in the name of the Lord.

That this national Christianity will be only a sham, an outward thing, and not the real kingdom of grace established by Christ, is indicated by the next four verses, which say:-

"Forsaken people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers. Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots; their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made; and the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself; therefore forgive them not." Isaiah 2:6-9


This verse follows directly after all the things the people were saying about Jerusalem.

God is not in the Palestinian kingdom, even though it will look like a "return to God" movement.

These verses show that while the people profess that they know God, in works they deny him. They will be worshiping something of their own creation. They'll be involved in eastern myths (spiritual formation??) They will depend on ruling powers instead of depending upon the Lord.

In a counterfeit establishment of worship -- the standard of what true Christianity is, is lowered, until it comes down to where the mass of the people are, and then they "worship" thinking they are "saving the world" by flowing into this established Christianity that has set itself above all "mountains" and "hills".

And what will be the final result?

The prophet Isaiah continues:
"Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low." "And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he arised to shake terribly the earth. In the day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; to go into the clefs of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake the terrible the earth." Isa. 2:10-12, 19-21.


This corresponds to
The second coming --
Rev. 6:14-16 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


In that day of the Lord the earth shall be melted (2 Peter 3:10, 11; Isa. 24:19, 20), and sinners shall be destroyed out of it; "nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness." 2 Peter 2:13.

And when the earth is cleansed, then will be fulfilled the word of the Lord which is written: "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jer. 31:34); for "all thy children shall be taught of the Lord; and great shall be the peace of thy children." Isa. 54:13.

Re: A study of Zechariah-8 (Part 1 of 2) [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172221
03/03/15 04:06 PM
03/03/15 04:06 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Midland
And not to forget why there even is a Jerusalem today. Why are people "up in arms" over anything against Israel, etc., etc.

I would say the majority of Christians believe in a temporal kingdom located in literal Jerusalem. Listen to the news. Listen to the churches. Listen to common conversation. It's everywhere.

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