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Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #172176
03/01/15 10:58 PM
03/01/15 10:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
According to Jesus to do so makes Him a killer - "to neglect to save life was to kill."

This was poorly worded. Here's what I meant to say: According to APL's view (see above) Jesus is a killer because there are times when He chooses not to intervene and save innocent women and children - "to neglect to save life [is] to kill."

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: Mountain Man] #172193
03/02/15 05:47 AM
03/02/15 05:47 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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No need to phrase things so negatively, it only gives APL reason to strengthen his position.
I agree with your point in the previous post -- when a person rejects the need of Christ's death for the forgiveness of sin, they are denying the need for Christ's death for salvation.

True, APL sees the other benefits from the cross --
But important as they are, they were not the crucial one upon which our salvation hangs. And even those benefits are much more fully appreciated when we realize the absolute necessity in order to pardon sin, of Christ's sacrifice for our salvation.

Thousands will be in heaven who lived before Christ's first coming. They knew not the events of the cross. But they trusted in the atoning blood of the substitute prefiguring Christ's death for forgiveness, and walked with God by faith in righteousness. Yet Christ's sacrifice was still absolutely necessary for them to be declared justified before God.



Christ is the source of life,
Christ has power to heal all disease
Christ has power to raise the dead.

Life is a gift from God.
We cannot create life.
We can't even sustain the life granted to us for very long.

Apart from God there is no life.
The only reason sinners (sin separates from God) have life at all, is because Jesus stepped in as our surety and substitute that we might have salvation.
We have NO LEGAL right to life -- for we have all rebelled (sinned) against the ONE WHO IS LIFE.

To think that we can tell God He HAS TO GIVE US LIFE because we deserve it, is totally wrong. We have no legal right life.

It is only God's great love for us. Jesus took our sins, paying the legal penalty to the law, for our sins. It is only through HIM that a legal right to life was given.

By accepting Christ we pass from death unto life. (See John 5:24)

By His blood we are forgiven,
By His life, His merits, we live unto Him, reckoning ourselves dead to sin and alive in Him, walking with Him, by the power of the Holy spirit in righteousness.

Yes, those who spurn that gift, have not passed from death unto life, they will have even their temporary lives taken from them.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #172195
03/02/15 06:27 AM
03/02/15 06:27 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
No need to phrase things so negatively, it only gives APL reason to strengthen his position. I agree with your point in the previous post -- when a person rejects the need of Christ's death for the forgiveness of sin, they are denying the need for Christ's death.
Dedication - Christ's death was absolutely necessary. But not as a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the Heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us but in our hearts and characters {Letter 406, 1906}

Originally Posted By: dedication
True, APL sees the other benefits from the cross --
But they were not the crucial ones upon which our salvation hangs.
Oh really? And what might those be that I don't believe? That the cross was a skillful way to adjust my legal standing? Is THAT what is so crucial? Nope. The cross of Christ procured a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. THAT is what one needs in order to be saved. We are saved from our sins, not in our sins. Forgiveness is not something that takes place in God. No. No. Forgiveness as in 1 John 1:9 is what takes place within the sinner.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Thousands will be in heaven who lived before Christ's first coming. They knew not the events of the cross. But they trusted in the atoning blood of the substitute prefiguring Christ's death for forgiveness, and walked with God by faith in righteousness. Yet Christ's sacrifice was still absolutely necessary for them to be declared justified before God.
AMEN.

Originally Posted By: dedication
Christ is the source of life,
Christ has power to heal all disease
Christ has power to raise the dead.
What? No legal pardon in your list?

Originally Posted By: dedication
Apart from God there is no life.
The only reason sinners (sin separates from God) have life at all, is because Jesus stepped in as our surety and substitute that we might have salvation.
We have NO LEGAL right to life -- for we have all rebelled (sinned) against the ONE WHO IS LIFE.

To think that we can tell God He HAS TO GIVE US LIFE because we deserve it, is totally wrong. We have no legal right life.

It is only God's great love for us. Jesus took our sins, paying the legal penalty to the law, for our sins. It is only through HIM that a legal right to life was given.
The only way to heaven is to be transformed. A mere legal pardon does not achieve this. Without a total transformation, we will have no part in heaven. God desires to heal us, to set us free. But since this requires an entire transformation, a renewing of our whole nature, we must yield ourselves wholly to Him. {SC 43.2} The warfare against self is the greatest battle that was ever fought. The yielding of self, surrendering all to the will of God, requires a struggle; but the soul must submit to God before it can be renewed in holiness. {SC 43.3} Does that sound legal?

Originally Posted By: dedication
Apart from God there is no life.
The only reason sinners (sin separates from God) have life at all, is because Jesus stepped in as our surety and substitute that we might have salvation.
We have NO LEGAL right to life -- for we have all rebelled (sinned) against the ONE WHO IS LIFE.

To think that we can tell God He HAS TO GIVE US LIFE because we deserve it, is totally wrong. We have no legal right life.

It is only God's great love for us. Jesus took our sins, paying the legal penalty to the law, for our sins. It is only through HIM that a legal right to life was given.
Hm - "legal penalty". "Legal penalty"? Why do you think the penalty is a legal penalty? Is this because sin is not really that bad, that sin does not actually destroy the sinner? NO. Sin kills, it destroys. The penalty is intrinsic. Interestingly, EGW never uses the term "legal penalty". She does speak about those that claim that sin Christ died for us. we are off the hook.

Those who are teaching this doctrine today have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient: that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfills the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that He has saved them. "I am saved," they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity. Such teaching is a gross deception, and Christ becomes to these persons a stumbling block as He did to the Jews,--to the Jews, because they would not receive Him as their personal Saviour, to these professed believers in Christ, because they separate Christ and the law, and regard faith as a substitute for obedience. They separate the Father and the Son, the Saviour of the world. Virtually they teach, both by precept and example, that Christ, by His death, saves men in their transgressions. {BEcho, February 8, 1897 par. 7} This class claim a legal right because of the death of Christ to be saved. But that is not how it works. We need a cure of the transgression. Healing. It is the Ministry of Healing, not the Ministry of Jurisprudence. Just look at the life of Christ!!! He also demonstrated what forgiveness actually does. It is written:

Mark 2:4-11 And when they could not come near to him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the sick of the palsy, Son, your sins be forgiven you. 6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why does this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said to them, Why reason you these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Your sins be forgiven you; or to say, Arise, and take up your bed, and walk? 10 But that you may know that the Son of man has power on earth to forgive sins, (he said to the sick of the palsy,) 11 I say to you, Arise, and take up your bed, and go your way into your house.

What is easier to do, your sins are forgiven, or take your bed and walk? THEY ARE THE SAME THING. It is HEALING we need.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #172202
03/02/15 04:04 PM
03/02/15 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Dedication
Jesus bade the afflicted man stand forth, and then asked, "Is it lawful to do good on the Sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill?" It was a maxim among the Jews that a failure to do good, when one had opportunity, was to do evil; to neglect to save life was to kill. {DA 286.2}

M: APL believes Jesus withdraws His help and protection and permits evil men to kill innocent women and children. According to this view, Jesus is a killer because there are times when He chooses not to intervene and save innocent women and children - "to neglect to save life [is] to kill."

D: No need to phrase things so negatively, it only gives APL reason to strengthen his position.

Dedication, as you can see from APL's reply, the insight and observation I posted above is not a negative comment - it states his view accurately. He avoids dealing with this troublesome aspect of his view. He hides behind freewill and dismisses the problem. He says Jesus permits evil men to murder innocent women and children for no other reason than He respects their freedom to choose and act as they please. Somehow he thinks this clears Jesus of any culpability - as if Jesus did nothing to make it possible.

Well, according to Jesus, doing nothing that results in death makes you a killer. "To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." If Jesus is as APL says He is, people have every reason to fear Him. The truth is - Jesus is not like that. He does not permit evil men to kill innocent women and children because He respects their freedom to choose and to act as they please. Instead, He permits it to happen for reasons that make sense to Him. Those reasons, which He will not explain to us until we are in heaven with Him, do not make Him a killer.

Originally Posted By: APL
The only way to heaven is to be transformed. A mere legal pardon does not achieve this. Without a total transformation, we will have no part in heaven.

He is acting like you do not believe both are essential to salvation. This is a false accusation. You have made it abundantly clear both are essential. He is twisting your words hoping to present you as a legalist. He believes the pillar and foundation of salvation is ceasing sinning. He believes the only reason Jesus suffered and died is to motivate us to love Him enough to cease sinning. What happens because of our past sins after we cease sinning? Nothing. God simply treats it as if they never happened. What happens to what APL calls the intrinsic aspect of sinning? Nothing. God somehow neutralizes it. APL's view is an extreme form of salvation by works. We are saved because we love God and cease sinning.

Originally Posted By: APL
Why do you think the penalty is a legal penalty? Is this because sin is not really that bad, that sin does not actually destroy the sinner? NO. Sin kills, it destroys. The penalty is intrinsic.

He is dead wrong. The penalty for breaking the law of God is not suffering that ends in first death. Sin does not kill - it is the cause and effect consequences of sinning that causes suffering and the first death. If the first death were the penalty for sinning, there would be no humane reason for Jesus to resurrect them. Jesus, not sin, will execute justice and judgment in the lake of fire. Suffering and dying in the lake of fire is the penalty for sinning. Sin cannot execute this penalty. Only Jesus can. And He will.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #172215
03/03/15 04:47 AM
03/03/15 04:47 AM
APL  Offline
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Again from another forum:

Executive: Having the function of carrying out plans or orders etc.
Judgment: The cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions.

Executive judgment: God will bring the wicked dead out of their graves in the "great white throne" judgment for the execution, or carrying out, of the plan to bring every impenitent soul through a cognitive process of drawing the conclusion that:

==> God alone has life and that the law of God, being non-arbitrary, but fixed and eternal, is actually the very protocol upon which life is built;
==> the Divine principles are based on the circuit of beneficence, or agape outflowing of all-for-others-unselfish-love;
==> they have become fixed in their determination to life by the Satanic principle of all-for-self self-exaltation, therefore
==> it cannot work as it cuts off God and there is no other god in whom there is life, therefore
==> they must go to non-existence as they acknowledge that God's way is supreme but that they do not want it.

They want life, but they want it on terms which are impossible. This is as a fire in the mind and it is an extreme anguish as we cannot imagine in our darkest nightmares. This they will see, they will realize, and they will drink the cup, swallow down, saying "God, you are just. Let me go" And they will be as though they had not been (Obadiah 1:16).

Executioner: An official who inflicts capital punishment in pursuit of a warrant

There is a difference between executing the judgment process and being an executioner.

"GOD DOES NOT STAND TOWARD THE SINNER AS AN EXECUTIONER OF THE SENTENCE AGAINST TRANSGRESSION; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest.... The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin, and to THE CERTAIN PUNISHMENT THAT WILL FALL UPON THE GUILTY" {GC88 36.2}.

I do not know of any other way to read this except that God is not the executioner in the executive judgment.

Those passages about fire from God out of heaven, unquenchable fire, the worm that dieth not, etc. must be reinterpreted. This is not easy for a mind that has been conditioned by millenia of dark understandings, but we are not without Bible and SoP keys to aid us in decoding. This is the work that is now going forward in earnest. It is a work that has been prophesied:

Jeremiah 23:19-20 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously on the head of the wicked. 20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days you shall consider it perfectly.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: APL] #172216
03/03/15 06:49 AM
03/03/15 06:49 AM
dedication  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Dedication
There is a clear distinction between the legal and moral aspects of redemption.
Justification is the legal aspect.
Sanctification is the moral aspect.


EGW: My ideas concerning justification and sanctification were confused. These two states were presented to my mind as separate and distinct from each other. But are they? Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations. What is justification? As the penitent sinner, contrite before God, discerns Christ's atonement in his behalf, and accepts this atonement as his only hope in this life and the future life. This is justification by faith. This is not a mere legal adjustment, but a discernment of the character of God towards sinners. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption. A mere adjustment of one's legal standing is insufficient to make one a loyal subject. It is a realization of what God has done for us and the acceptance of this give and the placement of our trust in Him that brings justification and sanctification.


Let's take a closer look at this statement by EGW:

NOTE first of all, only the colored words are actually from EGW, not the black print. (Thankfully APL did color code that)

NOTE TWO: The colored quotes are stitched together from various sources and tied together by APL's interpretations.


The FIRST quote:
My ideas concerning justification and sanctification were confused. These two states were presented to my mind as separate and distinct from each other. {Life Sketches page 150)

EGW is referring to her childhood here, when she attended the Methodist church where she had "seen people lose their physical strength under the influence of strong mental excitement, and had heard this pronounced to be the evidence of sanctification." {Ibid}

She was confused because of the emphases on physical exhibition as proof of sanctification, yet observed the bitter spirit of some claiming sanctification.

She was in agony because she felt she would never be good enough to attain heaven and must suffer eternal hell -- due to the preacher's sermons.

After visiting Elder Stockman, and learning more about God's loving plan of salvation --
" “Faith now took possession of my heart. I felt an inexpressible love for God, and had the witness of his Spirit that my sins were pardoned. My views of the Father were changed. I now looked upon him as a kind and tender parent, rather than a stern tyrant compelling men to a blind obedience. My heart went out towards him in a deep and fervent love. Obedience to his will seemed a joy; it was a pleasure to be in his service."

What made the difference?
It was knowing her sins were pardoned -- this completely changed her concept of a God who desired her punishment, to a God who was kind and loving and supplied the means by which she was forgiven.

She recognized her guilt, she stood guilty before God and His law, and saw only the reward of the wicked as her future. But without doing ANYTHING to make herself good, she took hold of faith in Christ, faith in his sacrifice for her sins, and her guilt rolled away, leaving her happy and praising God. And seeing His love, she longs to serve Him.


----

APL asks;
But are they (justification and sanctification distinct from each other?)


He quotes":Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations {9MR 300}

But the quote does not support his implied conclusion -- it only asks people not to get bogged down with minuet theological definitions.

EGW goes on to define justification:

"Why try to work out every minute point, as if the salvation of the soul depended upon all having exactly your understanding of this matter? All cannot see in the same line of vision. You are in danger of making a world of an atom, and an atom of a world. {9MR 300.4}
As the penitent sinner, contrite before God, discerns Christ's atonement in his behalf, and accepts this atonement as his only hope in this life and the future life, his sins are pardoned. This is justification by faith.

Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. Through faith, the believer passes from the position of a rebel, a child of sin and Satan, to the position of a loyal subject of Christ Jesus, not because of an inherent goodness, but because Christ receives him as His child by adoption. The sinner receives the forgiveness of his sins, because these sins are borne by his Substitute and Surety.{9MR 301}


---
APL comments: This is not a mere legal adjustment, but a discernment of the character of God towards sinners.

Yet the "legal adjustment" of forgiveness by the sacrificial blood of Christ, and adoption into the Family of God, RESULTS *if properly contemplated) in a greater discernment of the character of God.

"Justification is the opposite of condemnation. God’s boundless mercy is exercised toward those who are wholly undeserving. He forgives transgressions and sins for the sake of Jesus, who has become the propitiation for our sins. (Manuscript Releases, vol. 9, pp. 301).

Justification (the legal part which Christ has done for us) is made manifest in sanctification (the transforming part which Christ does IN us)

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #172227
03/03/15 06:25 PM
03/03/15 06:25 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
"Justification is the opposite of condemnation. God’s boundless mercy is exercised toward those who are wholly undeserving. He forgives transgressions and sins for the sake of Jesus, who has become the propitiation for our sins. (Manuscript Releases, vol. 9, pp. 301).

Justification (the legal part which Christ has done for us) is made manifest in sanctification (the transforming part which Christ does IN us)
If you find justification as a legal event, fine, go ahead. Understand that not all view it that way. We do not need a "legal" adjustment of our standing, we need a real change. In the healing model, condemnation is intrinsic with sin. Just as lung cancer is a consequence of smoking, the patient does not need a legal pardon, they need a real pardonning, they need the cancer to go into remission. This is "Aphiemi", this is forgiveness in the sense of 1 John 1:9, a remitting of sin. Justification is setting right, this is remitting, this is the opposite of the condemnation that cancer brings. Sin is a cancer on the soul. The legal model makes God out to be the bad guy, the one that must punish the sinner because sin does not do it intrinsically. The legal model makes God out to be the one that needs to be appeased. Read again {9MR301} What or who needs to be appeases, needs propitiation? Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

What is the definition of Grace using the Bible? See: Titus 3:5-7, Isaiah 53:11. We are justified by Grace. Is it legal? NO.

Titus 3:5-7 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

We are justified by His grace. It is by His knowledge that we are justified. Is that legal? No. The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the Heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us but in our hearts and characters (Letter 406, 1906). {6BC 1074.2} Christ revealed himself to Paul in a flood of glory, and he was struck down helpless before him. He asked, "Who art thou, Lord?" and the Lord answered, "I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest." Paul then inquired, "What will thou have me to do?" When Christ is revealed to the soul, the sinner's relation to the law is made plain. There must be repentance toward God for the transgression of his law, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ as the sinner's substitute. The convicted sinner sees his bruised, demoralized condition, feels his need of a physician, sees Christ as his only hope, and lays hold of him by faith. He is deeply conscious of his sin and ruin, and seeks the divine remedy in the world's Redeemer. {ST, July 14, 1890 par. 4} We need a physician. Is that legal?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #172232
03/03/15 07:23 PM
03/03/15 07:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
We do not need a "legal" adjustment of our standing, we need a real change.

Dedication has stated things so plainly that for you to assume she doesn't believe in real change is slanderous.

Re: What does it mean to "fear"? [Re: dedication] #172269
03/05/15 04:21 AM
03/05/15 04:21 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
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"Living faith in the Redeemer will smooth the sea of life, and will deliver us from danger in the way that He knows to be best. {DA 336.3} The best way sometimes means permitting evil men to kill innocent women and children.

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as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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