HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
kland 15
Rick H 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
ProdigalOne
ProdigalOne
Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,168
Joined: June 2015
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,970 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 #172424
03/14/15 05:10 PM
03/14/15 05:10 PM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
SDA
Supporting Member 2015
Active Member 2015

Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev. 12:15-17)

Before we can correctly understand this prophecy, we must understand the symbols employed here. Many of us are familiar with God's pin point and exact designs in nature. For instance the flower. When we pick one and closely examine it, we find a perfect symmetry of designs. The lines all flow in a direction, the flower is color coded, etc.

Well then, how much more will He be EXACT and measured in His word? Does He not place each word carefully? Will He not have meaning and purpose for us in His words? Each and every word means something and we must not skip over them as if they are not relevant. ONLY when we approach God's word as such will we comprehend the true and correct meaning of His powerful word. Now, let us look at the purposeful and prophetic word spoken above.

1) The serpent represents Satan (Rev. 12:9)

2) The woman represents God's church (Rev. 12:5,6,17: GC p.381,7 BC, p.972)

3) The dragon casts a flood of water after the woman hoping thereby to cause her to be carried away of the flood.

4) Water represents people (Rev. 17:15). Naturally a "flood" would represent a large amount of people.

5) Since the dragon causes these people (flood) to infiltrate the church, they must reflect his character and attributes. Such as non-converted, allowing sins to be fostered in the church, etc.

6) The SOP describes a "worldly flood" coming into the church (GC, p.385)

7) Obviously the dragon's chief objective in flooding the church with non-converteds (tares) is to cause the church to be "carried away" by the flood, to secure her downfall.

"While the Lord brings into the church those who are truly converted, Satan at the same time brings persons who are not converted into its fellowship. While Christ is sowing the good seed, Satan is sowing the tares. There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God ((TM, p.46)

8) The earth helps the woman by "opening" her mouth and swallowing up the flood. A miraculous event happens that causes the "flood" to disappear.The church is helped. This same type of event was shown us as a perfect example of the Lord "helping" His people in the days of Moses. Read Numbers 16:27-34.

9) AFTER, and let us keep this time schedule firmly in mind--after, this swallowing (helping of God's church) the dragon is angry. The church being relieved of Satan's tares, makes him furious. He then goes forth to "make war" with the remnant of her seed (This "remnant of her seed" has a specific meaning which we shall address later).Let us keep in mind that Satan has mixed the church with his tares since the early days after Pentecost. Now for the first time since then he is powerless to infiltrate God's pure church.

10) This warring by Satan brings on the "time of trouble such as never was"(Dan 12:1).

(To be continued in part 2)

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 03/14/15 05:14 PM.
Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172431
03/14/15 11:52 PM
03/14/15 11:52 PM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Who is the woman of Revelation 12 and her remnant?

This prophecy is addressing the Christian church and how the remnant emerge.

The woman represents God's people.
After the birth of the child she represents the true Christian church -- those who have accepted the "child" the Messiah, the hope of all who are the true Israel.

During the 1260 she years is "in the wilderness".
This part of the prophecy clearly deals with the time period between 538-1798.

" The dragon had given to the beast "his power, and his seat, and great authority." Revelation 13:2. And now began the 1260 years of papal oppression foretold in the prophecies of Daniel and John... For hundreds of years the church of Christ found refuge in seclusion and obscurity. Thus says the prophet: “The woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” [Revelation 12:6.] {GC88 54.2}


This tells us that church which claims direct authority and linage from the apostles to "sit on the chair of Peter" is not the true church.

It is very significant that this matter is presented for we will soon be facing a time when this European based church that dominated those 1260 years will claim it is the true and only apostolic church with divine authority to tell people how to worship.

The Bible is clear in Rev. 12 that the main powerful and visible church of the 1260 years was NOT His true church. His church was in the wilderness, prophesying in sackcloth during those years.

What takes place at the end of the 1260 years?

The FLOOD that was sent out to destroy the church is swallowed by the earth.
"And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood "

What does "flood" represent?
FLOOD represents great numbers -- often a great army causing destruction.

What does "earth" represent?
If "flood" is symbolic, so is "earth" symbolic.
In the very next chapter "earth" is understood as a "new land".

"John had a definite view of the help given by the earth. Turning from the sea, (representing many nations) from which he had seen the great and terrible beast arise, with its seven heads and ten horns and the names of blasphemy, he saw "another beast coming up out of the earth." It was at the time the papal power was being led into captivity, that the prophet saw this new power "coming up" OUT OF THE EARTH. Rome sprang into existence in the midst of many peoples; the beast arose from the sea, but away from all the strife, outside the bounds of European darkness, arose another nation. It was brought into existence by the Lord Himself; at the very time it was most needed for the development of the principles of the Gospel, and of the final struggle for truth." {1905 SNHaskell, SSP 234.2}

This is represented by the "EARTH" a new land, which we understand to be America, "swallowing" the armies of persecution.


During this time truth became available to all. Righteousness in Christ, the Sabbath, Christ and the Sanctuary truths, all were rediscovered.

But something happens to the woman -- for it is only a remnant of her seed that are true to God's commandments with the faith of Jesus and the HIS testimony in the end.

We only need to look to Rev. 17 to see what happened to the woman-- she has joined the beast/dragon!


The message of Rev. 12 is for the world! For all Christians. Don't join the beast or the spiritualistic dragon!!!
The call is CLEAR --

Come out of Babylon -- which is in direct opposition to the popular and ever growing ecumenical movement and appeal to JOIN TOGETHER and form unity with the beast.
The movement to BUILD BABYLON is growing stronger every day.

Where do Adventists stand here?
They do have the "remnant message".

Yet, many will heed the ecumenical call and think the
"Come out of Babylon" is too severe and "old fashioned".
Why not join Babylon and "convert" the world?

Yes, Jerusalem in Palestine will be a central part of Babylon's kingdom. Don't go there to find God's kingdom, even if all the signs and wonders call you to go. (see Matt. 24:24; Luke 17:20-21) The "law" coming from old Jerusalem will be coming from a counterfeit headquarters.

The dragon is furious with the remnant of "her seed", Christians who refuse to join with the kingdom of the beast pretending to speak for Christ.

There will be a shaking in Adventism -- which will severely hit the Adventist church as many will join the popular side.
Two parties will arise in Christendom --
Those who seek unity of religions under a spiritualistic worship lead by the papacy and enforced by former protestants using civil power.
Multitudes from the commandment keeping church will leave as oppression mounts, but many will embrace the truth and stand for God.

And -- there will be a remnant of the woman's seed" -- those who with perseverance cling to Christ, keeping God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus and His testimony.


Like their forefathers (the church in the wilderness for 1260 years) they too will end up facing persecution and fleeing into the wilderness for refusing to join Babylon.

Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: dedication] #172432
03/15/15 01:47 AM
03/15/15 01:47 AM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
SDA
Supporting Member 2015
Active Member 2015

Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
The focus is on Rev.12:15-17. So let us pay close attention to this.

Ded- What does "flood" represent?
FLOOD represents great numbers -- often a great army causing destruction.


We would like inspiration to back this up. Can you provide?

We have provided the following to show what the term "flood" means--

To secure converts, the exalted standard of the Christian faith was lowered, and as the result “a pagan flood, flowing into the church, carried with it its customs, practices, and idols.”—Gavazzi, Lectures, page 278. As the Christian religion secured the favor and support of secular rulers, it was nominally accepted by multitudes; but while in appearance Christians, many “remained in substance pagans, especially worshiping in secret their idols.”—Ibid., page 278.

"A worldly flood, flowing into the church, carries “with it its customs, practices, and idols.” (GC, p.385)


This is the absolute best description of identifying what a "flood" means. If anyone has something better please provide.

We shall take one point at a time to clear it, so let's see Ded's inspired references for her ideas.

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 03/15/15 01:47 AM.
Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172434
03/15/15 05:36 AM
03/15/15 05:36 AM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
What does "flood" represent?
FLOOD represents great numbers -- often a great army causing destruction.

Even in the quotes you used, the word "flood" means great numbers. The quotes were using the word in the way it is commonly used.
They weren't defining the word "flood".

EGW uses the word flood in many ways:

Into the darkened chambers of his mind there poured a flood of light, AA 115

close the door against a flood of temptations AH 141

A flood of hasty words may seek for expression,ChL 64

a flood of guilt and woe that has deluged the world. CTBH 44

the overwhelming flood of God's wrath shall sweep over the world.-- {CT 63.3}

The only passage I read where EGW takes a Bible verse using the word FLOOD symbolically she says it was armies.

Quote:
"But the King sendeth forth His armies and destroys those murders and burns up their city, and we are told in the ninth chapter of Daniel, the 26th verse, that "the people of the Prince that shall come shall destroy the city...; and the end thereof shall be with a flood." {EGW 1SermonsAndTalks 5.1} (Ellipses in original)

Thus the "prophetic" flood in Revelation is seen as the papal armies flooding destroying the believers.

1208 – 1226 The Crusades against the Albigensian in southern France. Roman Catholic crusaders slaughter approximately 20,000 citizens of Beziers, France, on July 22, 1209 By 1226 almost the entire population of southern France (mostly Albigensian Christians) had been exterminated.

1540 – 1570 Roman papal armies killed at least 900,000 Waldensian Christians of all ages during this 30-year period.

1550 – 1560 Roman papal armies killed at least 250,000 Dutch Protestants

1572 St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. French Roman Catholic soldiers begin killing Protestants in Paris on the night of August 24, 1572. At least 10,000 Protestants were killed that night. At least 8000 more were killed as the slaughter spreads to the countryside.

There were many more as
The flood was terrible --




There is no question that a flood of evil is sweeping throughout the world and into the churches. That is part of Satan's strategy.
There is no question that a flood of false doctrines are lapping all around, diluting and distorting truth. (In fact I believe SRod is one branch of that flood)
There is no question that a flood of temptations are being unleashed on people-- especially trying to tear away Christ's followers from following Him.

But the meaning of Revelation 12:15-17 is talking about the woman who fled into the wilderness, and the dragon tries to destroy her.

The woman in those verses is NOT the SDA church --

It is only after the earth (new land -- America and it's religious freedom) helps the woman, (ending the 1260 years)
that we see a remnant that keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus emerge.

Quote:
Today the church of God is free to carry forward to completion the divine plan for the salvation of a lost race. For many centuries (referring to the dark ages or 1260 years) God's people suffered a restriction of their liberties. The preaching of the gospel in its purity was prohibited, and the severest of penalties were visited upon those who dared disobey the mandates of men. As a consequence, the Lord's great moral vineyard was almost wholly unoccupied. The people were deprived of the light of God's word. The darkness of error and superstition threatened to blot out a knowledge of true religion. God's church on earth was as verily in captivity during this long period of relentless persecution as were the children of Israel held captive in Babylon during the period of the exile. {PK 714.1}

But, thank God, His church is no longer in bondage. To spiritual Israel have been restored the privileges accorded the people of God at the time of their deliverance from Babylon. In every part of the earth, men and women are responding to the Heaven-sent message which John the revelator prophesied would be proclaimed prior to the second coming of Christ: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." Revelation 14:7.

{PK 714.2}
No longer have the hosts of evil power to keep the church captive; for "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city," which hath "made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication;" and to spiritual Israel is given the message, "Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Verse 8; 18:4. As the captive exiles heeded the message, "Flee out of the midst of Babylon" (Jeremiah 51:6), and were restored to the Land of Promise, so those who fear God today are heeding the message to withdraw from spiritual Babylon, and soon they are to stand as trophies of divine grace in the earth made new, the heavenly Canaan. {PK 715.1}








Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: dedication] #172441
03/15/15 05:45 PM
03/15/15 05:45 PM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
SDA
Supporting Member 2015
Active Member 2015

Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
Your whole rambling dissertation loses an important aspect which you are famous (or should I say infamous)for--"context"

the quote I used is the most direct form of the word flood to the context of Rev. 12's contextual setting. Nice try but your examples of the word flood cannot come close to the pinpoint example of GC p.385.

But of couse you never are satisfied with the straight truth, rather you prefer to side track the issue , so that it becomes blurred to the point of diversion from the intended meaning of God's word.

An example-- DED- The only passage I read where EGW takes a Bible verse using the word FLOOD symbolically she says it was armies.

Let's look at GC p.385 AGAIN for the slow of understanding-

To secure converts, the exalted standard of the Christian faith was lowered, and as the result “a pagan flood, flowing into the church, carried with it its customs, practices, and idols.”—Gavazzi, Lectures, page 278. As the Christian religion secured the favor and support of secular rulers, it was nominally accepted by multitudes; but while in appearance Christians, many “remained in substance pagans, especially worshiping in secret their idols.”—Ibid., page 278.

"A worldly flood, flowing into the church, carries “with it its customs, practices, and idols.” (GC, p.385)


I consider this point proven. We shall deal with the other ones next.

Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: dedication] #172446
03/16/15 05:32 AM
03/16/15 05:32 AM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
SDA
Supporting Member 2015
Active Member 2015

Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
Ded-What does "earth" represent?
If "flood" is symbolic, so is "earth" symbolic.
In the very next chapter "earth" is understood as a "new land".


Let us now address the issue of the "earth".

Let us think this through. Dedication decides on her own to make the above interpretation. However, this cannot be necessarily true. For instance--

"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun , with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on the heads."(Rev. 12:1-3)

We see that the woman is symbolic , yet the child is not. Neither is the giving birth symbolic. Both the child and giving birth are real literal events (Jesus and His birth). So not all in Rev. 12 should be considered symbolic (or even the whole Revelation).

Again in verse six --" the woman fled into the wilderness.." we see that the woman (symbolic) goes into the "wilderness" (Not symbolic) for we well know that the church during this time did indeed retreat to the wilderness (caves and mountains) in order to survive.

So let us look at the earth and it's meaning.Remember when we stated that God put every word to mean something? This "earth swallowing" must mean something. Do we have any perfect examples that showed the "earth swallowing"? Yes we do - Numbers 16:23-33.

Verse 28-- "And Moses said: 'By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will. If these men die naturally like all men , or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me.

But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord."

Now it came to pass , as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods." (Verse 28-32)


So we see that this perfect example of the earth opening her mouth indicating a cleansing. The false brethren, those who would not listen to God's appointed spokesmen were eliminated from God's people.

This is the lesson God is trying to give us in Rev.12. Satan has for centuries be able to cast a "flood" (unconverted) into the woman (church) BUT God decides to "take the reins into His own hands"(TM, p.300) and does a cleansing and it "helps the woman". This is the prophesied Ezekiel 9 church judgment.

Yes, the earth swallowing is symbolic in Rev. 12, but it should not be mis-construed for what it stands for-- a church cleansing.

Then we see that Satan is furious. A pure church cannot be flooded any longer. The prophesied "time of trouble as never was" begins--the Great controversy! Satan and his human agents war against God and His servants--what a gigantic end time struggle! The victory is Gods--praise the Lord!

The Lord's Rod teaches us that Revelation is not only a history book but a prophetic future event guideline. Such is Rev. 12.

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 03/16/15 05:59 AM.
Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172447
03/16/15 06:42 AM
03/16/15 06:42 AM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Your rendition of Rev. 12 is not based on Adventist interpretation, or on EGW's writings. It is simply your interpretation (or houteff's).

Your quote from GC 385 is NOT talking about Revelation 12.
It has a lot of truth in it's own setting, however the flood that is swallowed by the earth in Revelation 12 is something else.

We've discussed this numerous times already.
The context of Revelation 12:13-16 is the 1260 years.(538-1798)


Revelation 12:13-16 is talking about the woman who fled into the wilderness for 1260 years, (538-1798)and the dragon tries to literally destroy her.

The woman in those verses is NOT the SDA church --

SINCE THE WOMAN IS SYMBOLIC -- God's true people in the wilderness for 1260 years (from 538-1798)
SINCE THE FLOOD IS SYMBOLIC -- (it's not literal water, but people out to destroy God's people)
THUS THE EARTH IS ALSO SYMBOLIC -- and we know from Rev. 13 that the "earth" represents a new land, (America)

Quote:
In the book of the Revelation, under the symbols of a great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamb-like horns, [Revelation 12 AND 13.] are brought to view those earthly governments which are especially engaged in trampling upon God's law and persecuting his people. Their war is carried forward to the close of time.{4SP 276}

A clear statement that this is a persecuting war against God's people who keep God's commandments.


Quote:
The great kingdoms that have ruled the world obtained their dominion by conquest and revolution, and they were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when the "four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." [Daniel 7:2.]

But the beast with horns like a lamb is seen "coming up out of the earth;" [Revelation 13:11.] ... Here is a striking figure of the rise and growth of our own nation [America] 4SP 277

God was with his people, and persecution could not prevail to silence their testimony. Many were driven across the ocean to America, and here laid the foundations of civil and religious liberty which have been the bulwark and glory of this country. {GC88 252.1}


Beasts (kingdoms) rise up from sea (the fighting nations of Europe and Asia Minor)
Beast (nation) rises up from earth (a new land)
This new land gives religious liberty.

In the twelfth chapter of Revelation, the church of Christ is shown as warred upon by Satan through three powers.
The first is the church at the birth of Christ when the world was under the Roman power;
the second is the church in the wilderness seeking refuge from the Roman papal power; at the end of the 1260 years, a brief period of rest ensures as the "earth" America swallows the flood of persecution and provides liberty of worship,
but then the third persecution descends upon the remnant church when "the earth beast" America, units with the former persecutors to oppose God's people.



It is after the earth (new land -- America and it's religious freedom) helps the woman, (ending the 1260 years)and providing religious liberty
that we see a remnant that keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus emerge.

It is when the earth beast repudiates it's position of religious freedom that the last persecution descends.

God brings forth a church proclaiming the three angels' message and the WHOLE LAW, including the Sabbath of our Creator God.


Now -- one thing about Houteff that is a serious problem-- is his pushing aside the crises of Sabbath vs Sunday issue as a test of faithfulness first coming to the Adventist Church and through them to the world. He dismisses this as the test that divides the insincere members in the church from the genuine.



The day is coming when the church will suffer persecution and be faced with destruction,
But the one behind it will be Satan, not God.
Satan wants to get rid of this church that stands against his kingdom plans and knows of his aim of getting the whole world to worship him.
Many who will suffer will be genuine believers, not the half hearted who forsake the church.
(Those who forsake truth will suffer later when the plagues fall)


Yes, God will allow it, to sift the church, but He promises to be with all who have anchored their faith and lives in Him.

Quote:
The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity, she will have to do in a terrible crisis, under most discouraging, forbidding, circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. They will be placed in circumstances where they will be forced to bear witness for the truth. Many will be called to speak before councils and in courts of justice, perhaps separately and alone. The experience which would have helped them in this emergency they have neglected to obtain, and their souls are burdened with remorse for wasted opportunities and neglected privileges.--Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 463. {ChS 158.1}


Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: dedication] #172463
03/18/15 05:58 AM
03/18/15 05:58 AM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
SDA
Supporting Member 2015
Active Member 2015

Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
A quote from our prophetess--

"Last night, in vision, I was standing before an assembly of our people, bearing a decided testimony regarding present truth and present duty. After the discourse, many gathered about me, asking questions. They desired so many explanations about this point, and that point, and another point, that I said, "One at a time, if you please, lest you confuse me." (SLM, vol. 1, p.31)

The reason I like the above is it suggests us to focus on specific points. Dedication by passes this counsel time and again and drifts off with many words until the specific point is lost in the shuffle. Truth must be built one block at a time in dis-argeements , then when we have many of them built up (acknowledged) we see clearly the whole house of truth, the whole subject.

But all this is worthless when there is no acknowledgement of truth. Regardless , for the sake of others we shall continue our study.

Our subject is the "earth" in Rev. 12:16. As we have cleared the meaning of the flood. we are now endeavoring to clear the earth symbolism.Particularly in relation to it's "swallowing of the flood". This is--context.

Ded- Your quote from GC 385 is NOT talking about Revelation 12.
It has a lot of truth in it's own setting, however the flood that is swallowed by the earth in Revelation 12 is something else.


We never said that GC p.385 specifically describes Rev. 12. What we are saying is that the symbolism of the "flood" is what applies here. There is no doubt that the picture of Satan casting out of his mouth a "flood" is pointing to a flood of tares (unconverted) into the church (woman).

Your quotes of the meaning of the flood fall woefully short, especially in the context of the lesson from Rev. 12. Yes, we know you think , and admittingly many SDA as well, that Rev. 12:15-17 belongs as a sort of "history lesson" of the church. We do agree that the prior verses do indeed give us historical events--such as the woman flys into the wilderness(verse 14). We strongly disagree with the remainder of the chapter (verses 15-17) pertaining to historical account.

We believe it shows a CURRENT present truth lesson of a soon to be fulfilling of the church purification.

In the book of the Revelation, under the symbols of a great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamb-like horns, [Revelation 12 AND 13.] are brought to view those earthly governments which are especially engaged in trampling upon God's law and persecuting his people. Their war is carried forward to the close of time.{4SP 276}

Pay close attention to the underlined part--"to the close of time".

This is further evidence that Rev. 12 ends up --"to the close of time", just like we are pointing out. The main reason that the end of rev. 12 and the chapter 13 are future is that is shows 1) a church purification by GOD HIMSELF, then a forming of earthly satanic governments to set up the last great test--worship and the day of.

Let us remember that the Loud Cry only comes once the church is purified --(Review and Herald Nov.19, 1908)

Ded- ..however the flood that is swallowed by the earth in Revelation 12 is something else.

As we have shown based on clear undeniable proof that the "earth swallowing" has been performed by GOD HIMSELF in prior history, what could possibly be your "something else" as better proof of what this symbolism means? Give us inspiration NOT your private words.

What we have shown is direct proof from the actual "earth swallowing" from God, what Rev. 12 means. When you give us this 'something else" don't do what you are famous for. Pulling one quote form here and one from ther and then saying "see here it is" LOL.

Show us direct meaning of ".the earth opened it's mouth and swallowed the flood.."

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 03/18/15 06:08 AM.
Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172465
03/18/15 07:27 AM
03/18/15 07:27 AM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada

My understanding is built on the WHOLE CONTEXT and rests firmly on Adventist interpretation, including EGW's statements.
You have been given that and chose to ignore it.

.

GLL says: There is no doubt that the picture of Satan casting out of his mouth a "flood" is pointing to a flood of tares (unconverted) into the church (woman).

There is no real proof that's what the Rev. 12 flood means. As I've shown several times now.

The word FLOOD is not symbolic of "tares".
The word FLOOD is used as "a great number".
A person can find the expression used for MANY different things "flooding" (as pointed out)

HOW does the Bible use the term in prophecy?

What flood carried away Christ the Prince of the covenant in Daniel 11?
What flood broke the people to whom this covenant was first given?


Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

No, it was NOT a flood of tares being poured into Christ the Prince of the Covenant -- it was "arms" or armies -- in this case Roman armies that put Christ on the cross, and 40 years later destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

Or how about
Daniel 9:26
"the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


Again the flood destroys the city of Jerusalem -- it's talking about war -- of armies coming and destroying the city.

Or
Isaiah 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord brings up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, [even] the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck;


Here the "flood" is the Assyrian army that overflows Judea, up to the "neck" -- they destroyed all the towns around, but didn't get the "head" Jerusalem.

The Bible often uses "flood" as the armies out to destroy and overwhelm.

In the same way it is used in Revelation 12 --
The papal armies crusaded against God's faithful, killing millions.

GLL writes "We strongly disagree with the remainder of the chapter (verses 15-17 [of chapter 12]) pertaining to historical account"

Verses 14-16 are speaking of the historical account of 1260 years and of the woman.

The WOMAN is NOT the SDA church --

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.


The woman flees into the wilderness and the dragon, through the Papal power, sends out vast armies (and if you've ever studied history you will realize the full scope of floods of armies sent out into the wilderness to kill all who cherished the truths from scripture.

The earth -- swallows the flood of persecution--

This marks the end of the 1260 years of persecution.



First off -- Revelation 13 is NOT all future.
The sea beast (that rose amongst the nations of Europe/Asia minor) is wounded with a fatal wound.
When? AT THE END OF THE 1260 years. 1798 AD

The second beast of Revelation 13 rises OUT OF THE EARTH. AMERICA
When? at the end of the 1260 years -- 1776 and onward, forming a land of religious freedom.

The religious persecution is, for a time, stopped.
The earth (AMERICA) swallowed up the flood of persecution.

Now Revelation 12:17 begins to take place -- the "remnant of her seed"

God raises a church (this is not the woman but a remnant of her seed) That is an offshoot from the church that was in the wilderness.

Quote:
Today the church of God is free to carry forward to completion the divine plan for the salvation of a lost race.
For many centuries God's people suffered a restriction of their liberties. The preaching of the gospel in its purity was prohibited, and the severest of penalties were visited upon those who dared disobey the mandates of men. As a consequence, the Lord's great moral vineyard was almost wholly unoccupied. The people were deprived of the light of God's word. The darkness of error and superstition threatened to blot out a knowledge of true religion. God's church on earth was as verily in captivity during this long period of relentless persecution as were the children of Israel held captive in Babylon during the period of the exile. {PK 714.1}

But, thank God, His church is no longer in bondage. To spiritual Israel have been restored the privileges accorded the people of God at the time of their deliverance from Babylon. In every part of the earth, men and women are responding to the Heaven-sent message which John the revelator prophesied would be proclaimed prior to the second coming of Christ: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." Revelation 14:7. PK 714



The woman herself isn't seen again until she is sitting on the beast in Rev. 17.
Why is this?

The Sabbath -- the whole of God's commandments is being taught by the "remnant of her seed" -- the offshoot of the woman that was in the wilderness.
Remember the remnant "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus".

But the "woman" (Protestantism) herself refused to give up Sunday, though it has no authority except the papal authority, and thus, what the papal armies failed to do with their armies, they accomplish in the time of peace. (And yes, many professed Adventists will join the woman on the beast when the crises comes)

WHEN DOES THE CRISES COME--
When the earth beast (America)
The nation that provided the environment of religious freedom so the three angel's message could be proclaimed far and wide, now joins the beast from the sea and speaks like the dragon. (See Rev. 13)

Protestant America clasps the hand of the Papal Power and of Spiritualism, and religious freedom DIES. (see The Great Controversy, p. 588)

Yes, the war goes to the very end, it reaches terrible heights once the earth beast joins the healed sea beast -- Satan now turns his full fury on the commandment keeping, faith in Jesus, "church".

There is no peaceful kingdom from which then to reach the world.

Quote:
The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity, she will have to do in a terrible crisis, under most discouraging, forbidding, circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld, must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith, and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren, and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. The members of the church will individually be tested and proved. They will be placed in circumstances where they will be forced to bear witness for the truth. Many will be called to speak before councils and in courts of justice, perhaps separately and alone. The experience which would have helped them in this emergency they have neglected to obtain, and their souls are burdened with remorse for wasted opportunities and neglected privileges.--Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 463.




Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: dedication] #172496
03/21/15 05:30 AM
03/21/15 05:30 AM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
SDA
Supporting Member 2015
Active Member 2015

Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
Ded-My understanding is built on the WHOLE CONTEXT and rests firmly on Adventist interpretation

Dedication fails to realize that this is not the "firmly" guarantee she thinks it is.

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed." (SLM vol. 1, p.37)

The Rod teaches clearly that this divine statement certainly applies to Rev.12. Yes we know you hate this idea.

To further illuminate the meaning of the flood, we'd like to bring in one more helpful understanding of Satan's flood work--

"In the hope of destroying the woman, the serpent at first persecuted her. Failing, though, to reach his goal, he suddenly reversed his tactics. He ceased the persecution and began instead to befriend her. But at what cost to the woman! Cunningly he cast water as a flood after her, seeming to put forth a mighty effort to refresh her, when in actuality it was a mighty effort thereby to destroy her.

The figurative words of Inspiration explain that the compulsory Christianizing of the Gentiles and the pouring of them into the church during the fourth century of the Christian era, was not in reality a friendly act. Rather it was like a devastating torrent to drown the saving power of Christianity.

In other words, Inspiration predicted the period in which the dragon clothed Pagan politicians in a garb of Christianity and then led them to compel the non-Christian pagans to join the church, that they might thus paganize her rather than she Christianize them.

In confirmation, we quote a partial description from Mr. Gibbon’s work: “By the edicts of toleration, he [Constantine] removed the temporal disadvantages which had hitherto retarded the progress of Christianity; and its active and numerous ministers received a free permission, a liberal encouragement, to recommend the salutary truths of revelation by every argument which could affect the reason or piety of mankind.

The exact balance of the two religions [Christian and Pagan] continued but a moment…. The cities which signalized a forward zeal by the voluntary destruction of their temples [the Pagans'] were distinguished by municipal privileges, and rewarded with popular donatives…

The salvation of the common people was purchased at an easy rate, if it be true that, in one year, twelve thousand men were baptized at Rome, besides a proportionable number of women and children, and that a white garment with twenty pieces of gold, had been promised by the emperor to every convert.” This was “a law of Constantine, which gave freedom to all the slaves who should embrace Christianity.” — Gibbon’s Rome, Vol. 2, pp. 273, 274. (Tract 15, p.86-87)

Ded- Verses 14-16 are speaking of the historical account of 1260 years and of the woman.

As mentioned we agree that verse 14 does speak historically. However, verses 15-17 definitively do not.

Ded- The earth -- swallows the flood of persecution-- and-- The earth (AMERICA) swallowed up the flood of persecution.

Ah, just as we suspected. Remember in our last post we asked for INSPIRATION from Dedication to point us clearly to what the "earth swallowing" means? Well she, and again we emphasize SHE says what it means by her own private interpretation. NO inspired references like we produced (Numbers 16:28-32) showing a clear symbolic meaning of what this could mean.

She put her own puzzle together and asked us to believe it ,lol. No thanks.


We rest our case and now we have cleared both the "flood" and it's meaning and the "earth swallowing" and it's meaning.

Ded- First off -- Revelation 13 is NOT all future.
The sea beast (that rose amongst the nations of Europe/Asia minor) is wounded with a fatal wound.
When? AT THE END OF THE 1260 years. 1798 AD

The second beast of Revelation 13 rises OUT OF THE EARTH. AMERICA
When? at the end of the 1260 years -- 1776 and onward, forming a land of religious freedom.


If you'll pay close attention to what we SAID, and not what you say we said, you'll focus and be much more coherent. Here is what we said--

"This is further evidence that Rev. 12 ends up --"to the close of time", just like we are pointing out. The main reason that the end of Rev. 12 and the chapter 13 are future is that is shows 1) a church purification by GOD HIMSELF, then a forming of earthly satanic governments to set up the last great test--worship and the day of."

We did not say it is ALL future now did we? We highlighted why it is prophetic and describes strong evidence for 1) Church purification 2) Satan government establishment. That is the extent of our point.

Yes this is sandwiched between some historical events but other areas of Revelation is the same layout. For instance Chapter 12 , which is after Chapter 11, goes BACKWARDS in time events.

Chap. 11 describes events from the cross to the end of human probation, yet chapter 12 goes back to creation and stops before the end of probation, at the time of trouble.

The balance of her dissertation does not address what we are trying to clear (earth swallowing) and as she has failed to produce anything, therefore we'll not waste time on it.

let's look at fresh new points in our next study. Lastly, we want to remind the fact of the building blocks of truth one at a time.

our latest blog post goes more into Rev. 12 Rev. 12:15-17

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 03/21/15 07:22 AM.
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1