"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev. 12:15-17)

Before we can correctly understand this prophecy, we must understand the symbols employed here. Many of us are familiar with God's pin point and exact designs in nature. For instance the flower. When we pick one and closely examine it, we find a perfect symmetry of designs. The lines all flow in a direction, the flower is color coded, etc.

Well then, how much more will He be EXACT and measured in His word? Does He not place each word carefully? Will He not have meaning and purpose for us in His words? Each and every word means something and we must not skip over them as if they are not relevant. ONLY when we approach God's word as such will we comprehend the true and correct meaning of His powerful word. Now, let us look at the purposeful and prophetic word spoken above.

1) The serpent represents Satan (Rev. 12:9)

2) The woman represents God's church (Rev. 12:5,6,17: GC p.381,7 BC, p.972)

3) The dragon casts a flood of water after the woman hoping thereby to cause her to be carried away of the flood.

4) Water represents people (Rev. 17:15). Naturally a "flood" would represent a large amount of people.

5) Since the dragon causes these people (flood) to infiltrate the church, they must reflect his character and attributes. Such as non-converted, allowing sins to be fostered in the church, etc.

6) The SOP describes a "worldly flood" coming into the church (GC, p.385)

7) Obviously the dragon's chief objective in flooding the church with non-converteds (tares) is to cause the church to be "carried away" by the flood, to secure her downfall.

"While the Lord brings into the church those who are truly converted, Satan at the same time brings persons who are not converted into its fellowship. While Christ is sowing the good seed, Satan is sowing the tares. There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God ((TM, p.46)

8) The earth helps the woman by "opening" her mouth and swallowing up the flood. A miraculous event happens that causes the "flood" to disappear.The church is helped. This same type of event was shown us as a perfect example of the Lord "helping" His people in the days of Moses. Read Numbers 16:27-34.

9) AFTER, and let us keep this time schedule firmly in mind--after, this swallowing (helping of God's church) the dragon is angry. The church being relieved of Satan's tares, makes him furious. He then goes forth to "make war" with the remnant of her seed (This "remnant of her seed" has a specific meaning which we shall address later).Let us keep in mind that Satan has mixed the church with his tares since the early days after Pentecost. Now for the first time since then he is powerless to infiltrate God's pure church.

10) This warring by Satan brings on the "time of trouble such as never was"(Dan 12:1).

(To be continued in part 2)

Who is the woman of Revelation 12 and her remnant?

This prophecy is addressing the Christian church and how the remnant emerge.

The woman represents God's people.
After the birth of the child she represents the true Christian church -- those who have accepted the "child" the Messiah, the hope of all who are the true Israel.

During the 1260 she years is "in the wilderness".
This part of the prophecy clearly deals with the time period between 538-1798.

" The dragon had given to the beast "his power, and his seat, and great authority." Revelation 13:2. And now began the 1260 years of papal oppression foretold in the prophecies of Daniel and John... For hundreds of years the church of Christ found refuge in seclusion and obscurity. Thus says the prophet: “The woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.” [Revelation 12:6.] {GC88 54.2}


This tells us that church which claims direct authority and linage from the apostles to "sit on the chair of Peter" is not the true church.

It is very significant that this matter is presented for we will soon be facing a time when this European based church that dominated those 1260 years will claim it is the true and only apostolic church with divine authority to tell people how to worship.

The Bible is clear in Rev. 12 that the main powerful and visible church of the 1260 years was NOT His true church. His church was in the wilderness, prophesying in sackcloth during those years.

What takes place at the end of the 1260 years?

The FLOOD that was sent out to destroy the church is swallowed by the earth.
"And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood "

What does "flood" represent?
FLOOD represents great numbers -- often a great army causing destruction.

What does "earth" represent?
If "flood" is symbolic, so is "earth" symbolic.
In the very next chapter "earth" is understood as a "new land".

"John had a definite view of the help given by the earth. Turning from the sea, (representing many nations) from which he had seen the great and terrible beast arise, with its seven heads and ten horns and the names of blasphemy, he saw "another beast coming up out of the earth." It was at the time the papal power was being led into captivity, that the prophet saw this new power "coming up" OUT OF THE EARTH. Rome sprang into existence in the midst of many peoples; the beast arose from the sea, but away from all the strife, outside the bounds of European darkness, arose another nation. It was brought into existence by the Lord Himself; at the very time it was most needed for the development of the principles of the Gospel, and of the final struggle for truth." {1905 SNHaskell, SSP 234.2}

This is represented by the "EARTH" a new land, which we understand to be America, "swallowing" the armies of persecution.


During this time truth became available to all. Righteousness in Christ, the Sabbath, Christ and the Sanctuary truths, all were rediscovered.

But something happens to the woman -- for it is only a remnant of her seed that are true to God's commandments with the faith of Jesus and the HIS testimony in the end.

We only need to look to Rev. 17 to see what happened to the woman-- she has joined the beast/dragon!


The message of Rev. 12 is for the world! For all Christians. Don't join the beast or the spiritualistic dragon!!!
The call is CLEAR --

Come out of Babylon -- which is in direct opposition to the popular and ever growing ecumenical movement and appeal to JOIN TOGETHER and form unity with the beast.
The movement to BUILD BABYLON is growing stronger every day.

Where do Adventists stand here?
They do have the "remnant message".

Yet, many will heed the ecumenical call and think the
"Come out of Babylon" is too severe and "old fashioned".
Why not join Babylon and "convert" the world?

Yes, Jerusalem in Palestine will be a central part of Babylon's kingdom. Don't go there to find God's kingdom, even if all the signs and wonders call you to go. (see Matt. 24:24; Luke 17:20-21) The "law" coming from old Jerusalem will be coming from a counterfeit headquarters.

The dragon is furious with the remnant of "her seed", Christians who refuse to join with the kingdom of the beast pretending to speak for Christ.

There will be a shaking in Adventism -- which will severely hit the Adventist church as many will join the popular side.
Two parties will arise in Christendom --
Those who seek unity of religions under a spiritualistic worship lead by the papacy and enforced by former protestants using civil power.
Multitudes from the commandment keeping church will leave as oppression mounts, but many will embrace the truth and stand for God.

And -- there will be a remnant of the woman's seed" -- those who with perseverance cling to Christ, keeping God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus and His testimony.


Like their forefathers (the church in the wilderness for 1260 years) they too will end up facing persecution and fleeing into the wilderness for refusing to join Babylon.

The focus is on Rev.12:15-17. So let us pay close attention to this.

Ded- What does "flood" represent?
FLOOD represents great numbers -- often a great army causing destruction.

We would like inspiration to back this up. Can you provide?

We have provided the following to show what the term "flood" means--

To secure converts, the exalted standard of the Christian faith was lowered, and as the result “a pagan flood, flowing into the church, carried with it its customs, practices, and idols.”—Gavazzi, Lectures, page 278. As the Christian religion secured the favor and support of secular rulers, it was nominally accepted by multitudes; but while in appearance Christians, many “remained in substance pagans, especially worshiping in secret their idols.”—Ibid., page 278.

"A worldly flood, flowing into the church, carries “with it its customs, practices, and idols.” (GC, p.385)

This is the absolute best description of identifying what a "flood" means. If anyone has something better please provide.

We shall take one point at a time to clear it, so let's see Ded's inspired references for her ideas.

What does "flood" represent?
FLOOD represents great numbers -- often a great army causing destruction.

Even in the quotes you used, the word "flood" means great numbers. The quotes were using the word in the way it is commonly used.
They weren't defining the word "flood".

EGW uses the word flood in many ways:

Into the darkened chambers of his mind there poured a flood of light, AA 115

close the door against a flood of temptations AH 141

A flood of hasty words may seek for expression,ChL 64

a flood of guilt and woe that has deluged the world. CTBH 44

the overwhelming flood of God's wrath shall sweep over the world.-- {CT 63.3}

The only passage I read where EGW takes a Bible verse using the word FLOOD symbolically she says it was armies.


Thus the "prophetic" flood in Revelation is seen as the papal armies flooding destroying the believers.

1208 – 1226 The Crusades against the Albigensian in southern France. Roman Catholic crusaders slaughter approximately 20,000 citizens of Beziers, France, on July 22, 1209 By 1226 almost the entire population of southern France (mostly Albigensian Christians) had been exterminated.

1540 – 1570 Roman papal armies killed at least 900,000 Waldensian Christians of all ages during this 30-year period.

1550 – 1560 Roman papal armies killed at least 250,000 Dutch Protestants

1572 St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre. French Roman Catholic soldiers begin killing Protestants in Paris on the night of August 24, 1572. At least 10,000 Protestants were killed that night. At least 8000 more were killed as the slaughter spreads to the countryside.

There were many more as
The flood was terrible --




There is no question that a flood of evil is sweeping throughout the world and into the churches. That is part of Satan's strategy.
There is no question that a flood of false doctrines are lapping all around, diluting and distorting truth. (In fact I believe SRod is one branch of that flood)
There is no question that a flood of temptations are being unleashed on people-- especially trying to tear away Christ's followers from following Him.

But the meaning of Revelation 12:15-17 is talking about the woman who fled into the wilderness, and the dragon tries to destroy her.

The woman in those verses is NOT the SDA church --

It is only after the earth (new land -- America and it's religious freedom) helps the woman, (ending the 1260 years)
that we see a remnant that keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus emerge.

Your whole rambling dissertation loses an important aspect which you are famous (or should I say infamous)for--"context"

the quote I used is the most direct form of the word flood to the context of Rev. 12's contextual setting. Nice try but your examples of the word flood cannot come close to the pinpoint example of GC p.385.

But of couse you never are satisfied with the straight truth, rather you prefer to side track the issue , so that it becomes blurred to the point of diversion from the intended meaning of God's word.

An example-- DED- The only passage I read where EGW takes a Bible verse using the word FLOOD symbolically she says it was armies.

Let's look at GC p.385 AGAIN for the slow of understanding-

To secure converts, the exalted standard of the Christian faith was lowered, and as the result “a pagan flood, flowing into the church, carried with it its customs, practices, and idols.”—Gavazzi, Lectures, page 278. As the Christian religion secured the favor and support of secular rulers, it was nominally accepted by multitudes; but while in appearance Christians, many “remained in substance pagans, especially worshiping in secret their idols.”—Ibid., page 278.

"A worldly flood, flowing into the church, carries “with it its customs, practices, and idols.” (GC, p.385)

I consider this point proven. We shall deal with the other ones next.

Ded-What does "earth" represent?
If "flood" is symbolic, so is "earth" symbolic.
In the very next chapter "earth" is understood as a "new land".

Let us now address the issue of the "earth".

Let us think this through. Dedication decides on her own to make the above interpretation. However, this cannot be necessarily true. For instance--

"Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun , with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns on the heads."(Rev. 12:1-3)

We see that the woman is symbolic , yet the child is not. Neither is the giving birth symbolic. Both the child and giving birth are real literal events (Jesus and His birth). So not all in Rev. 12 should be considered symbolic (or even the whole Revelation).

Again in verse six --" the woman fled into the wilderness.." we see that the woman (symbolic) goes into the "wilderness" (Not symbolic) for we well know that the church during this time did indeed retreat to the wilderness (caves and mountains) in order to survive.

So let us look at the earth and it's meaning.Remember when we stated that God put every word to mean something? This "earth swallowing" must mean something. Do we have any perfect examples that showed the "earth swallowing"? Yes we do - Numbers 16:23-33.

Verse 28-- "And Moses said: 'By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these works, for I have not done them of my own will. If these men die naturally like all men , or if they are visited by the common fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me.

But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord."

Now it came to pass , as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods." (Verse 28-32)

So we see that this perfect example of the earth opening her mouth indicating a cleansing. The false brethren, those who would not listen to God's appointed spokesmen were eliminated from God's people.

This is the lesson God is trying to give us in Rev.12. Satan has for centuries be able to cast a "flood" (unconverted) into the woman (church) BUT God decides to "take the reins into His own hands"(TM, p.300) and does a cleansing and it "helps the woman". This is the prophesied Ezekiel 9 church judgment.

Yes, the earth swallowing is symbolic in Rev. 12, but it should not be mis-construed for what it stands for-- a church cleansing.

Then we see that Satan is furious. A pure church cannot be flooded any longer. The prophesied "time of trouble as never was" begins--the Great controversy! Satan and his human agents war against God and His servants--what a gigantic end time struggle! The victory is Gods--praise the Lord!

The Lord's Rod teaches us that Revelation is not only a history book but a prophetic future event guideline. Such is Rev. 12.

Your rendition of Rev. 12 is not based on Adventist interpretation, or on EGW's writings. It is simply your interpretation (or houteff's).

Your quote from GC 385 is NOT talking about Revelation 12.
It has a lot of truth in it's own setting, however the flood that is swallowed by the earth in Revelation 12 is something else.

We've discussed this numerous times already.
The context of Revelation 12:13-16 is the 1260 years.(538-1798)


Revelation 12:13-16 is talking about the woman who fled into the wilderness for 1260 years, (538-1798)and the dragon tries to literally destroy her.

The woman in those verses is NOT the SDA church --

SINCE THE WOMAN IS SYMBOLIC -- God's true people in the wilderness for 1260 years (from 538-1798)
SINCE THE FLOOD IS SYMBOLIC -- (it's not literal water, but people out to destroy God's people)
THUS THE EARTH IS ALSO SYMBOLIC -- and we know from Rev. 13 that the "earth" represents a new land, (America)


A clear statement that this is a persecuting war against God's people who keep God's commandments.




Beasts (kingdoms) rise up from sea (the fighting nations of Europe and Asia Minor)
Beast (nation) rises up from earth (a new land)
This new land gives religious liberty.

In the twelfth chapter of Revelation, the church of Christ is shown as warred upon by Satan through three powers.
The first is the church at the birth of Christ when the world was under the Roman power;
the second is the church in the wilderness seeking refuge from the Roman papal power; at the end of the 1260 years, a brief period of rest ensures as the "earth" America swallows the flood of persecution and provides liberty of worship,
but then the third persecution descends upon the remnant church when "the earth beast" America, units with the former persecutors to oppose God's people.



It is after the earth (new land -- America and it's religious freedom) helps the woman, (ending the 1260 years)and providing religious liberty
that we see a remnant that keep God's commandments and have the testimony of Jesus emerge.

It is when the earth beast repudiates it's position of religious freedom that the last persecution descends.

God brings forth a church proclaiming the three angels' message and the WHOLE LAW, including the Sabbath of our Creator God.


Now -- one thing about Houteff that is a serious problem-- is his pushing aside the crises of Sabbath vs Sunday issue as a test of faithfulness first coming to the Adventist Church and through them to the world. He dismisses this as the test that divides the insincere members in the church from the genuine.



The day is coming when the church will suffer persecution and be faced with destruction,
But the one behind it will be Satan, not God.
Satan wants to get rid of this church that stands against his kingdom plans and knows of his aim of getting the whole world to worship him.
Many who will suffer will be genuine believers, not the half hearted who forsake the church.
(Those who forsake truth will suffer later when the plagues fall)


Yes, God will allow it, to sift the church, but He promises to be with all who have anchored their faith and lives in Him.

A quote from our prophetess--

"Last night, in vision, I was standing before an assembly of our people, bearing a decided testimony regarding present truth and present duty. After the discourse, many gathered about me, asking questions. They desired so many explanations about this point, and that point, and another point, that I said, "One at a time, if you please, lest you confuse me." (SLM, vol. 1, p.31)

The reason I like the above is it suggests us to focus on specific points. Dedication by passes this counsel time and again and drifts off with many words until the specific point is lost in the shuffle. Truth must be built one block at a time in dis-argeements , then when we have many of them built up (acknowledged) we see clearly the whole house of truth, the whole subject.

But all this is worthless when there is no acknowledgement of truth. Regardless , for the sake of others we shall continue our study.

Our subject is the "earth" in Rev. 12:16. As we have cleared the meaning of the flood. we are now endeavoring to clear the earth symbolism.Particularly in relation to it's "swallowing of the flood". This is--context.

Ded- Your quote from GC 385 is NOT talking about Revelation 12.
It has a lot of truth in it's own setting, however the flood that is swallowed by the earth in Revelation 12 is something else.

We never said that GC p.385 specifically describes Rev. 12. What we are saying is that the symbolism of the "flood" is what applies here. There is no doubt that the picture of Satan casting out of his mouth a "flood" is pointing to a flood of tares (unconverted) into the church (woman).

Your quotes of the meaning of the flood fall woefully short, especially in the context of the lesson from Rev. 12. Yes, we know you think , and admittingly many SDA as well, that Rev. 12:15-17 belongs as a sort of "history lesson" of the church. We do agree that the prior verses do indeed give us historical events--such as the woman flys into the wilderness(verse 14). We strongly disagree with the remainder of the chapter (verses 15-17) pertaining to historical account.

We believe it shows a CURRENT present truth lesson of a soon to be fulfilling of the church purification.

In the book of the Revelation, under the symbols of a great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamb-like horns, [Revelation 12 AND 13.] are brought to view those earthly governments which are especially engaged in trampling upon God's law and persecuting his people. Their war is carried forward to the close of time.{4SP 276}

Pay close attention to the underlined part--"to the close of time".

This is further evidence that Rev. 12 ends up --"to the close of time", just like we are pointing out. The main reason that the end of rev. 12 and the chapter 13 are future is that is shows 1) a church purification by GOD HIMSELF, then a forming of earthly satanic governments to set up the last great test--worship and the day of.

Let us remember that the Loud Cry only comes once the church is purified --(Review and Herald Nov.19, 1908)

Ded- ..however the flood that is swallowed by the earth in Revelation 12 is something else.

As we have shown based on clear undeniable proof that the "earth swallowing" has been performed by GOD HIMSELF in prior history, what could possibly be your "something else" as better proof of what this symbolism means? Give us inspiration NOT your private words.

What we have shown is direct proof from the actual "earth swallowing" from God, what Rev. 12 means. When you give us this 'something else" don't do what you are famous for. Pulling one quote form here and one from ther and then saying "see here it is" LOL.

Show us direct meaning of ".the earth opened it's mouth and swallowed the flood.."

My understanding is built on the WHOLE CONTEXT and rests firmly on Adventist interpretation, including EGW's statements.
You have been given that and chose to ignore it.

.

GLL says: There is no doubt that the picture of Satan casting out of his mouth a "flood" is pointing to a flood of tares (unconverted) into the church (woman).

There is no real proof that's what the Rev. 12 flood means. As I've shown several times now.

The word FLOOD is not symbolic of "tares".
The word FLOOD is used as "a great number".
A person can find the expression used for MANY different things "flooding" (as pointed out)

HOW does the Bible use the term in prophecy?

What flood carried away Christ the Prince of the covenant in Daniel 11?
What flood broke the people to whom this covenant was first given?


Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

No, it was NOT a flood of tares being poured into Christ the Prince of the Covenant -- it was "arms" or armies -- in this case Roman armies that put Christ on the cross, and 40 years later destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

Or how about
Daniel 9:26
"the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Again the flood destroys the city of Jerusalem -- it's talking about war -- of armies coming and destroying the city.

Or
Isaiah 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord brings up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, [even] the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck;


Here the "flood" is the Assyrian army that overflows Judea, up to the "neck" -- they destroyed all the towns around, but didn't get the "head" Jerusalem.

The Bible often uses "flood" as the armies out to destroy and overwhelm.

In the same way it is used in Revelation 12 --
The papal armies crusaded against God's faithful, killing millions.

GLL writes "We strongly disagree with the remainder of the chapter (verses 15-17 [of chapter 12]) pertaining to historical account"

Verses 14-16 are speaking of the historical account of 1260 years and of the woman.

The WOMAN is NOT the SDA church --

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

The woman flees into the wilderness and the dragon, through the Papal power, sends out vast armies (and if you've ever studied history you will realize the full scope of floods of armies sent out into the wilderness to kill all who cherished the truths from scripture.

The earth -- swallows the flood of persecution--

This marks the end of the 1260 years of persecution.



First off -- Revelation 13 is NOT all future.
The sea beast (that rose amongst the nations of Europe/Asia minor) is wounded with a fatal wound.
When? AT THE END OF THE 1260 years. 1798 AD

The second beast of Revelation 13 rises OUT OF THE EARTH. AMERICA
When? at the end of the 1260 years -- 1776 and onward, forming a land of religious freedom.

The religious persecution is, for a time, stopped.
The earth (AMERICA) swallowed up the flood of persecution.

Now Revelation 12:17 begins to take place -- the "remnant of her seed"

God raises a church (this is not the woman but a remnant of her seed) That is an offshoot from the church that was in the wilderness.




The woman herself isn't seen again until she is sitting on the beast in Rev. 17.
Why is this?

The Sabbath -- the whole of God's commandments is being taught by the "remnant of her seed" -- the offshoot of the woman that was in the wilderness.
Remember the remnant "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus".

But the "woman" (Protestantism) herself refused to give up Sunday, though it has no authority except the papal authority, and thus, what the papal armies failed to do with their armies, they accomplish in the time of peace. (And yes, many professed Adventists will join the woman on the beast when the crises comes)

WHEN DOES THE CRISES COME--
When the earth beast (America)
The nation that provided the environment of religious freedom so the three angel's message could be proclaimed far and wide, now joins the beast from the sea and speaks like the dragon. (See Rev. 13)

Protestant America clasps the hand of the Papal Power and of Spiritualism, and religious freedom DIES. (see The Great Controversy, p. 588)

Yes, the war goes to the very end, it reaches terrible heights once the earth beast joins the healed sea beast -- Satan now turns his full fury on the commandment keeping, faith in Jesus, "church".

There is no peaceful kingdom from which then to reach the world.

Ded-My understanding is built on the WHOLE CONTEXT and rests firmly on Adventist interpretation

Dedication fails to realize that this is not the "firmly" guarantee she thinks it is.

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed." (SLM vol. 1, p.37)

The Rod teaches clearly that this divine statement certainly applies to Rev.12. Yes we know you hate this idea.

To further illuminate the meaning of the flood, we'd like to bring in one more helpful understanding of Satan's flood work--

"In the hope of destroying the woman, the serpent at first persecuted her. Failing, though, to reach his goal, he suddenly reversed his tactics. He ceased the persecution and began instead to befriend her. But at what cost to the woman! Cunningly he cast water as a flood after her, seeming to put forth a mighty effort to refresh her, when in actuality it was a mighty effort thereby to destroy her.

The figurative words of Inspiration explain that the compulsory Christianizing of the Gentiles and the pouring of them into the church during the fourth century of the Christian era, was not in reality a friendly act. Rather it was like a devastating torrent to drown the saving power of Christianity.

In other words, Inspiration predicted the period in which the dragon clothed Pagan politicians in a garb of Christianity and then led them to compel the non-Christian pagans to join the church, that they might thus paganize her rather than she Christianize them.

In confirmation, we quote a partial description from Mr. Gibbon’s work: “By the edicts of toleration, he [Constantine] removed the temporal disadvantages which had hitherto retarded the progress of Christianity; and its active and numerous ministers received a free permission, a liberal encouragement, to recommend the salutary truths of revelation by every argument which could affect the reason or piety of mankind.

The exact balance of the two religions [Christian and Pagan] continued but a moment…. The cities which signalized a forward zeal by the voluntary destruction of their temples [the Pagans'] were distinguished by municipal privileges, and rewarded with popular donatives…

The salvation of the common people was purchased at an easy rate, if it be true that, in one year, twelve thousand men were baptized at Rome, besides a proportionable number of women and children, and that a white garment with twenty pieces of gold, had been promised by the emperor to every convert.” This was “a law of Constantine, which gave freedom to all the slaves who should embrace Christianity.” — Gibbon’s Rome, Vol. 2, pp. 273, 274. (Tract 15, p.86-87)

Ded- Verses 14-16 are speaking of the historical account of 1260 years and of the woman.

As mentioned we agree that verse 14 does speak historically. However, verses 15-17 definitively do not.

Ded- The earth -- swallows the flood of persecution-- and-- The earth (AMERICA) swallowed up the flood of persecution.

Ah, just as we suspected. Remember in our last post we asked for INSPIRATION from Dedication to point us clearly to what the "earth swallowing" means? Well she, and again we emphasize SHE says what it means by her own private interpretation. NO inspired references like we produced (Numbers 16:28-32) showing a clear symbolic meaning of what this could mean.

She put her own puzzle together and asked us to believe it ,lol. No thanks.


We rest our case and now we have cleared both the "flood" and it's meaning and the "earth swallowing" and it's meaning.

Ded- First off -- Revelation 13 is NOT all future.
The sea beast (that rose amongst the nations of Europe/Asia minor) is wounded with a fatal wound.
When? AT THE END OF THE 1260 years. 1798 AD

The second beast of Revelation 13 rises OUT OF THE EARTH. AMERICA
When? at the end of the 1260 years -- 1776 and onward, forming a land of religious freedom.


If you'll pay close attention to what we SAID, and not what you say we said, you'll focus and be much more coherent. Here is what we said--

"This is further evidence that Rev. 12 ends up --"to the close of time", just like we are pointing out. The main reason that the end of Rev. 12 and the chapter 13 are future is that is shows 1) a church purification by GOD HIMSELF, then a forming of earthly satanic governments to set up the last great test--worship and the day of."

We did not say it is ALL future now did we? We highlighted why it is prophetic and describes strong evidence for 1) Church purification 2) Satan government establishment. That is the extent of our point.

Yes this is sandwiched between some historical events but other areas of Revelation is the same layout. For instance Chapter 12 , which is after Chapter 11, goes BACKWARDS in time events.

Chap. 11 describes events from the cross to the end of human probation, yet chapter 12 goes back to creation and stops before the end of probation, at the time of trouble.

The balance of her dissertation does not address what we are trying to clear (earth swallowing) and as she has failed to produce anything, therefore we'll not waste time on it.

let's look at fresh new points in our next study. Lastly, we want to remind the fact of the building blocks of truth one at a time.

our latest blog post goes more into Rev. 12 Rev. 12:15-17

Quick correction-- meant to say verses 12:16 and 17 do not speak of historical events. But verse 15 is both historical and current. Satan since the early Christian church days has infiltrated the church with unconverted (flood of tares) and continues as we speak.

Satan has always flooded God's people with every conceivable method to wrench them away from Christ. Whether floods of persecution, and/or floods of false doctrines, or unconverted change agents.

That is not debated.
Indeed we are being flooded with a host of strange doctrines demanding we unlearn the truths of our Adventist beliefs.

Be it through false doctrines and deceit or physical persecution and death, the dragon rages against God's people by every means at his disposal.
The first is usually followed by the second. First come the deceptions and those he can't deceive the dragon will persecute and kill.

So what are we looking at here in the contextual meaning of Revelation 12:14-16


The quote from Gibbons (an historian) isn't talking about Revelation 12:14-16.

He is talking about the time of Constantine way back in the 4th century AD. This is a time period prior to the woman even fleeing into the wilderness, (he isn't talking about what helped her at the end of the 1260 years).

Gibbons (or was it Houteff using some phrases from Gibbons) seems to be saying the "pure woman" was the Catholic Church. Indeed the main church was corrupted by embracing paganism under a Christianised cloak, but that's NOT the woman that fled into the wilderness. Not being deceived by the paganization, the pure women faced PERSECUTION.

The dragon used the fallen Roman church to try to destroy the woman by persecution. The Roman church was the organization which caused the pure woman "God's church" to flee into the wilderness for 1260 years (538-1798)

The woman here in Revelation 12 was not the paganized Roman church, she fled because of the persecution ravished upon her. She went into to wilderness for protection, so she won't be annihilated. It was also a test -- Those who believed were given strength to endure or to suffer martyrdom, those who could not take the persecution compromised and joined the apostate Roman church and worldly temporal advantages.

"The serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood to carry away the true church. By its false doctrines the papacy had so corrupted all nations as to have absolute control of the civil power for long centuries. Through it Satan could hurl a mighty flood of persecution against God's church in every direction, and this he was not slow to do. Millions lost their lives.

What 'flood' did the dragon pour out against her? It was the flood of persecution. And history shows army after army, mob after mob being sent out to kill and destroy the church in the wilderness.

How did the earth help to end of those 1260 years of persecution?


Several times now it was shown how the "earth" symbol, is used in this portion of Revelation itself.

When looking for the meaning of a symbol in the Bible, one should FIRST look to see how the author himself uses that symbol.

How does John, the writer of The Revelation, use the symbol of "earth"?

Correction-- meant to say Rev.12:16-17 is future, and that Rev. 12:15 is both historical and future. Satan has brought tares (flood) into the church since the early Apostle days and even today continues, however with much greater success.

"While the Lord brings into the church those who are truly converted, Satan at the same time brings persons who are not converted into its fellowship. While Christ is sowing the good seed, Satan is sowing the tares.

There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God." (RH, Sept. 5, 1893)

Now let's look at the symbolic uses of "earth" in Revelation:



Rev 10:2
And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth.


Rev 10:5
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven


Rev 10:8
Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which stands upon the sea and upon the earth

Rev. 12:12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!

Rev 12:16
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth

Rev. 13:1 saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns
Rev 13:11
And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;


When used symbolically there is the "sea" and the "earth" each symbolic for something different.

The symbolic meaning of sea seems readily understood by most -- the sea, full of water which represents people and nations, is symbolic of restless nations and the wickedness in them, for they are like a troubled sea that cannot rest but are constantly out to conquer and subdue each other, and from them flowed the errors and heresies which formed the man of sin (the first beast of Rev. 13) and his ambitions to force the whole world to worship at the false shrine.

The earth -- denotes more space, and less people.

The mighty angel placing one foot upon the sea, and one upon the land, implies that his proclamation pertains to all the dwellers upon the globe.

But obviously people don't, as a rule, live in the sea, so we know it's symbolic of the "sea of nations" jostling each other over in the "Old World".

But he also has one foot on the "earth".

Rev. 13 speaks of one nation coming up out of the earth -- the continent "discovered" and beginning it's growth near the end of the 1260 years.



So do you believe "earth" symbolizes the American continent in Revelation 13?

So the "sea" is symbolic of the "old world" (Euro/Asian continent)
The "earth" is symbolic of the "new world". (American continent)

Now let's review the Biblical use of the word "flood" once more.


HOW does the Bible use the term "flood" in prophecy?

What flood carried away Christ the Prince of the covenant in Daniel 11:22?
What flood broke the people to whom this covenant was first given?

Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

No, it was NOT a flood of tares being poured into Christ the Prince of the Covenant -- it was "arms" or armies -- in this case Roman armies that put Christ on the cross, and 40 years later destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. Of course false beliefs did have their role in bringing the flood, but the flood that destroyed was an army.

Daniel 9:26
"the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Again the word flood is used to describe armies coming to destroy the city of Jerusalem.


Isaiah 8:7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord brings up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, [even] the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:
8:8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow {FLOOD] and go over, he shall reach even to the neck;

Here the "flood" is the Assyrian army that overflows or floods through Judah, up to the "neck" -- destroying all the cities around, only Jerusalem (the head of Judea) is spared.

Psalms 124:2-6
if it had not been the Lord who was on our side,when men rose up against us,then they would have swallowed us up alive,
when their anger was kindled against us;then the flood would have swept us away, the torrent would have gone over us;
then over us would have gone the raging waters.
Blessed be the Lord, who has not given us as prey to their teeth!


In the verses above we see that the Bible often uses "flood" as the armies or mobs out to destroy and overwhelm and kill.

In the same way it is used in Revelation 12 --
The papal armies (commanded into action by the dominating, powerful church of the middle ages) crusaded against God's faithful, killing millions.
Especially brutal and intense was this flood between 1200 - 1700 AD.


The earth -- swallows the flood of persecution--
This marks the end of the 1260 years of persecution.

Let's look at that closer:
Both the serpent [dragon] and the earth, have a "mouth".

Rev. 12:15-16
serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood
the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood

What does "mouth" symbolize?

The mouth makes declarations.
And when that mouth has power, it's declarations cause things to happen.

The dragon's mouth declares something and a flood results,
The earth declares something and the flood stops.
But later the beast that rises from the earth makes an image and enables the image to speak and the flood begins again.


"I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed....saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

In those verses from Revelation 13 we have several examples of what these declarations are all about.
To speak as the dragon causes or forces everyone (whether they want to or not) to worship the beast.
The image has power to speak and all who don't worship the image of the beast are killed.
These declarations have legal force behind them, -- worship the beast and his image or be killed.

Back to Revelation 12 -- the dragon or serpent mouth in Rev. 12 ordered the flood of persecution, the same as the Dragon voice in Rev. 13 -- worship according to beast's orders, or be killed. The decrees, and papal bulls and commands went out commanding the armies of the nations and civic powers to exterminate the church in the wilderness, to raze the towns where they lived to the ground (even Catholics who dared to shelter the so called "heretics" were killed without mercy).

The earth (the New Land -- America) opens her mouth, and what does "she" declare? what laws did this emerging nation enforce?
The bill of rights!
Freedom of religion! And many other rights set up to stop persecution and tyranny.

When the earth (the emerging new nation) opened her mouth and started making laws, those laws were specifically formulated to protect against the tyranny experienced in the "old world" it swallowed up the flood of persecution.

However, the "earth beast" has metamorphosed and is repudiating those laws that enabled truth to be preached without fear; the earth beast's mouth is starting to speak like the dragon, and soon it will create the image of the beast, joining hands with the beast -- and the image will speak new laws, that will cause the floods of persecution to resume.

This will be the test that will purify the church.

The chapter isn't saying there's going to be sink hole under every Adventist Church swallowing them -- no -- though I'm sure the devil would love that.

The dragon will try to get rid of this remnant, (the following chapters reveal more of his agenda) and in the process all the ungrounded ones will be swept out, joining the ranks of the worldly kingdom seekers.

Yes, he first sends his flood of false doctrines to try to unfit people to stand, filling their minds with all manner of doubts and uncertainties, telling us there won't be a crises. He is a deceiver promising earthly peace and temporal kingdoms and many other deceptive things, and then he sends the flood of persecution to scare people into his ranks.

This is the testing time that will test every member of the church, it will separate the tares from the wheat.
But if we have made Christ our all in all, and his Word our shield, He will not let one faithful follower be swept away.

Again, we see that our friend has tried to slip something in , whether we catch it or not.Let us look at the folly of listening and following those who attempt to do private interpretation. Apparently the lesson of Zech. 4 was not registered.

Ded-"The serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood to carry away the true church. By its false doctrines the papacy had so corrupted all nations as to have absolute control of the civil power for long centuries. Through it Satan could hurl a mighty flood of persecution against God's church in every direction, and this he was not slow to do. Millions lost their lives." (Daniel and the Revelation, p.513)

We asked Dedication for "INSPIRED" references for her following ideas--

Ded- "The earth--swallows the flood of persecution--and-- The earth (Amercia) swallowed up the flood of persecution."

What does she provide? An UN-inspired reference from Uriah Smith to back up her ideas. We too were once enamored with Mr. Smith until we searched closely his writings. Private men's theories may sound plausible but they are just that--private.

Ded- When looking for the meaning of a symbol in the Bible, one should FIRST look to see how the author himself uses that symbol.

This is off. For one thing this "author" is not John, rather the Holy Spirit. John had no input apart form listening as the Spirit moved him. Second, the Spirit that Dedication fails to follow has made clear and sound what the flood and earth swallowing mean.

She continues to try and separate the earth from the act--swallowing. Ofcourse the Scriptures make the term earth different meanings, but it is context in Rev 12:15-17 we need to focus.

Ded- So do you believe "earth" symbolizes the American continent in Revelation 13?

Yes I do, and you showed INSPIRED references for it.

The rest of her dissertation we'll not waste our time.

Remember our current study was identifying what the "flood" means and the "earth swallowing" means--per Rev. 12:15-16, these have been soundly shown and supported by the Scriptures and SOP, now let us move on.

We'd now like to finish with the verse 17--

"And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Rev. 12:15-17)

Let us pay close attention to this short yet powerful time line. Notice that the dragon gets wroth AFTER the earth swallows the flood.

Let us go back and point out Dedications false ideas again. She said Ded- "How did the earth help to end the 1260 years of persecution?"

She says the "end" of the persecution is when the earth (AMERICA) swallows the "flood of persecution". But how can that be when we see that the dragon is angry AFTER the swallowing? And goes to make "war" after this swallowing. It's been over 200 years since her idea ended (1798 was the swallowing time's end), and still no dragon wrath of persecution or his "warring" after God's people.

This all points to the fact that Satan is quite happy with the church right now! Since the end of 1260 years of prosecution, the church has exponentially swelled with TONS of tares--FLOOD.

When SOP says that "few" will be saved, this no doubt shows that the vast majority of the SDA members are part of Satan's --FLOOD.But this WILL CHANGE when the Lord "takes the reins into His own hands". (TM p.300)

So in order to fall for her ideas we must assume that there is a wide distance of time from mid-sentences! Total illogical and private! Instead we must as EGW says "take the Bible as it reads" (GC, p.598-599).

Bottom line --

The dragon is to be angry with the woman (God's church) because his "flood" of tares has been removed (earth swallowing--EZEKIEL 9). Being relieved of the tares for the FIRST TIME since the early days of the Apostolic church, The church can now go forward with the Loud Cry (See RH, Nov. 19, 1908). She at this time goes through out the world "conquering and to conquer"(PK, p.725).

Isaiah was a witness to this separation in the end time.--

"And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and purged the bloodshed of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and the spirit of burning,then the LORD will create over the whole area of Mount Zion and over her assemblies a cloud by day, even smoke, and the brightness of a flaming fire by night; for over all the glory will be a canopy." (Isaiah 4:3-5)

In all of Scripture there is perhaps no better cross reference to Rev. 12:16 (the church purification) than Isaiah 66:15-20

For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD."


Amen.

He who is guided by the Spirit of Truth, let him rejoice! (END OF STUDY)

I think your comments are misleading. I believe most, at least for Dedication, believes the Bible was inspired of God. But different "authors" wrote it. Would you be suggesting that none of the words in Revelation were of John's choosing?

Perhaps he does not believe EGW - who was inspired:

The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. {1SM 21.1}

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.2}

And EGW, who was inspired also strongly supported the distribution of U. Smith's book, something that would not make him to happy I suspect...

"How did the earth help to end the 1260 years of persecution?"

GLL: She says the "end" of the persecution is when the earth (AMERICA) swallows the "flood of persecution".

Yes, that is when the 1260 years of persecution ended.
The 1260 years ended in 1798.

GLL--but how can that be when we see that the dragon is angry AFTER the swallowing?

There is a time of peace (after all the woman is HELPED by the earth) What does it mean when HELP COMES? It means the flood is stopped for the time being. And I gave you plenty of inspired references from scripture
When the earth opens her mouth and makes the "bill of rights" the law, a time commences when the church with the three angel's message is called forth to preach the message to the world.

The three angel's messages began to sound 1840 --> 1844 --" 1863 the church is officially formed -->

200 years is nothing in God's timeline. Be grateful for the years of peace and use them to spread the message.



GLL --And goes to make "war" after this swallowing. It's been over 200 years since her idea ended (1798 was the swallowing time's end), and still no dragon wrath of persecution or his "warring" after God's people.

Are you serious? Do you really think there is no dragon wrath now? Seems he is extremely busy setting up things for his final assault. Casting all manner of doubt and confusion in the minds of people. Setting up political conditions secretly (and not so secretly) so the final trap of persecution will spring with terrible deadly power.

It will come, and when the nation that rose from the earth, and helped by giving religious freedom will totally change it's speaking -- it will speak as the dragon -- it speaks different laws -- repudiating her constitution and bill of rights, it will come.
We need to pray that we are securely in Christ.




But this period of peace will end.

I see I was not quite right. It's not the Bible that was inspired but it was men who were inspired in their writings of the Bible.

APL- Perhaps he does not believe EGW - who was inspired:

The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. {1SM 21.1}

Take a look at the above quote then compare it with your other quote from SOP--

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.2}

And this --

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [color:#3333FF]as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."(2 Peter 1:21)[/color]

This clearly points to the fact that it is not man's ideas or private thoughts that make the Scriptures (nor SOP) rather GOD delivering the thoughts upon them.

APL - And EGW, who was inspired also strongly supported the distribution of U. Smith's book, something that would not make him to happy I suspect...

Let's get focused here. Straight from the EGW estate--

Authorship of Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. The report of an early minister that Ellen G. White declared in his presence that she had seen an angel standing by the side of Elder Uriah Smith, inspiring him as he wrote Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, is seriously undercut by the historical facts. It is contrary to authentic Ellen G. White statements that would remove Smith's book from the category of "inspired." However, Mrs. White esteemed this volume highly and freely recommended it. See Colporteur Ministry, page 123

To say EGW "highly and freely" recommended it certainly does not qualify it as "INSPIRED". True, much of it seems quite true, HOWEVER, truth mixed with error can never be a book we claim as an inspired work of God and as such should not use it apart from it's proper setting-- a good human research and historical book.

The best definition of Inspiration I've yet to see-

"In Its Scriptural sense, Inspiration is defined as "a divine influence directly and immediately exerted upon the mind or soul of man" (The New Century Dictionary); in other words, It is a special function of the Spirit of God. It is, therefore, in Its divers manifestations, set in operation, not by the working of the mind itself, but by the power of the Spirit." (Sym. Code, vol.8 no.1-12, p.2)

Your negative tone to "Daniel and Revelation" are still unfounded.

Instruction has been given me that the important books containing the light that God has given regarding Satan's apostasy in heaven should be given a wide circulation just now; for through them the truth will reach many minds. Patriarchs and Prophets, Daniel and the Revelation, and The Great Controversy are needed now as never before. They should be widely circulated because the truths they emphasize will open many blind eyes. . . . Many of our people have been blind to the importance of the very books that were most needed. Had tact and skill then been shown in the sale of these books, the Sunday-law movement would not be where it is today.--{Review and Herald, Feb. 16, 1905}

In The Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, The Great Controversy, and in Daniel and the Revelation, there is precious instruction. These books must be regarded as of special importance, and every effort should be made to get them before the people.--{Letter 229, 1903}

The light given was that Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, The Great Controversy, and Patriarchs and Prophets, would make their way. They contain the very message the people must have, the special light God had given His people. The angels of God would prepare the way for these books in the hearts of the people.-- {Special Instruction Regarding Royalties, p. 7. (1899)}

Canvassers should be secured to handle the books, Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, Desire of Ages, Daniel and the Revelation, and other books of like character, who have a sense of the value of the matter these books contain, and a realization of the work to be done to interest people in the truth. Special help, which is above all the supposed advantages of illustrations, will be given to such canvassers. The canvassers who are born again by the work of the Holy Spirit, will be accompanied by angels, who will go before them to the dwellings of the people, preparing the way for them. --{Manuscript 131, 1899}

Daniel and Revelation, Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand.--{MS 76, 1901}


The Lord calls for workers to enter the canvassing field that the books containing the light of present truth may be circulated. The people in the world need to know that the signs of the times are fulfilling. Take to them the books that will enlighten them. Daniel and Revelation, The Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and The Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand. {21MR 444.3}

Huh - God's helping hand!

Still it is not inspired writings, no matter how much one cuts and dices it. if you declare it so, then that's up to you.

For example--

"To begin with, the reader's attention is called to Elder Uriah Smith's book, originally entitled Thoughts on Daniel and The Revelation, and later Daniel and The Revelation, in which is explained, among other subjects, the subject of "the seven trumpets."

Here one will notice that Elder Smith is not the original author of the exposition of the trumpets. The originators were Messrs. Keith, Clark, Barnes, et al. "Thus far," says Elder Smith, "Keith has furnished us with illustrations of the sounding of the first five trumpets." -- Daniel and The Revelation, p. 506.

Then further in the same chapter, and in explanation of Revelation 9:17, we read: "As the Turks discharged their firearms on horseback, it would appear to the distant beholder, that the fire, smoke and brimstone issued out of the horses' mouths, as illustrated by the accompanying plate." -- Id., p.510. "Barnes thinks this was the case," remarks Elder Smith; "and a statement from Gibbon confirms this view." -- ld., p. 510, footnote.

Thus, plainly, the interpretation of the seven trumpets, as it is found in Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, was not originated by the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. But their placing upon it their endorsement makes it appear as Seventh-day Adventist doctrine.

In other words, the theories of uninspired men having the S.D.A. stamp of approval, are made to appear to the S.D.A. laity as genuine S.D.A. Bible doctrines. This goes to show that the majority of Seventh-day Adventists, right along with others, do not ask, "Is it true, -- in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated?" -- Testimonies to Ministers, p.106. And if the theory comes through a popular channel, they as a rule unquestionably accept it!

A fair example is their unhesitatingly applauding such manipulations as rationalizing "the heads of lions" (in the symbolism of Revelation 9:17) into heads of Arabian horses, and the serpent-like tails (Rev. 9:19), into common horses' tails (as evidenced by the accompanying illustration) in order to connect the trumpets with the battles of the Turks!

But even worse, they unhesitatingly agree that the "fire," "smoke,'' and "brimstone" did not issue, as John saw them, from the lion-like mouths, but rather from a gun in the hand of a Turk!

Their accepting these additions and subtractions to and from Holy Writ, a practice condemned by the Scriptures (Rev. 22:18, 19), shows that they are victims of a faulty vision, which causes them to think themselves right when they are all wrong (Testimonies, Vol. 3, pp. 252, 253).

Their subscribing to such a practice, moreover, undermines faith in the Bible, for if the Revelator be wrong in one instance, then can he not be mistaken in other instances also? And if we cannot depend upon the book of The Revelation just as it reads, then how can we put confidence in any of the Bible?

And if inspired prophets cannot declare the positive truth of what they see, then how can uninspired students of their writings declare it?

So, those who learn "to give an answer to every man that asketh...a reason of the hope that is in" (1 Pet. 3:15) them, will have no trouble answering the question:Did John See Correctly?

True, the seer of Patmos was an erring human being like ourselves, but the one who dictated His writings -- the great and infallible I Am, Overseer and Proof Reader of the Scriptures -- was there to see that John made a faithful record of what he saw, for the exact truth of the symbolism means our very life.

Indeed, it is not possible that the Lord would jeopardize our salvation by displaying the symbolism so far removed from John's sight that he could not accurately see and record it, and yet expect to save us by it.

If John failed to see correctly the symbols in the vision, as these supposed-to-be men of learning and experience speciously explain, then does it not imply that God is indifferent as to whether or not He reveals in a misleading way truth which is essential to our salvation? If not, and if John was wrong, why, then, did not God correct him? Was it impossible for Him here to correct His prophet?

"The second angel," says the Revelator, "poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." Rev. 16:3.

If John could not, as is contended, see exactly where the "fire," "smoke," and "brimstone" came from, then how could he see that "every" creature, as he says in the words just quoted, died in the bottom of the sea? Which condition is the more difficult to see with exactness?

The acceptance and the teaching of such interpretations is signboard evidence that there is today gross darkness throughout the church, enveloping both the laity and the watchmen who claim to be the "men of experience" mentioned in Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 293, and elucidated in Tract No. 4, The Latest News for Mother Revised Edition, pp. 32-35.

These men, though exceedingly "unskilful in the Word," as is seen from the foregoing observations, forbid that anything new in which they see no light, be brought before the people.

And despite the fact that such utterly unlawful and light-obscuring restrictions are devised to keep the people forever in their errors, the laity nevertheless accept them without question, and esteem those who devise them as wise and true friends.

And all who refuse to be bound by such restrictions are "cast out" (Isa. 66:5), while multitudes who disbelieve the Spirit of Prophecy are retained, and other multitudes of like unbelief are accepted as members in approved standing! Thus is reenacted the outstanding sin of the Jews, which called forth from the lips of the Saviour the piercing pronouncement:



"If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matt. 6:23. (Tract 8, p.7-12)

Neither is (Sym. Code, vol.8 no.1-12, p.2) inspired writings.

Ded- GLL: She says the "end" of the persecution is when the earth (AMERICA) swallows the "flood of persecution".

Yes, that is when the 1260 years of persecution ended.
The 1260 years ended in 1798.

Of course it is. No one is disputing that. what I am saying , again, is that YOU are saying that the "earth swallowing" is the time of 1798 and after.

But we asked you to provide Inspiration that the "earth swallowing"of Rev. 12:16 is shown by INSPIRED references to be time the earth (America) ends the persecution. What you have provided is Daniel and the Revelation , which as we have shown was never declared Inspired by EGW. Recommendation from her, yes but INSPIRED no! She quotes many other authors such as Gibbons, and we don't dare call his writings inspired either.

What you have done is , again, provided a private picture of pulling something from here and there and putting them together and saying "here it is, the proof." Just like we predicted in the beginning of this thread.

When GOD HIMSELF shows the PERFECT explantion for what the "earth swallowing" means (Numbers 16:28-32)--a purification of His people!

Now, again, if you can show us better proof of what Inspiration shows "the Earth opening her mouth" means ,we may consider your side, BUT don't show us un-inspired references to try and disprove what God has shown already to be exact and proven as the symbolism.

Ded-GLL --And goes to make "war" after this swallowing. It's been over 200 years since her idea ended (1798 was the swallowing time's end), and still no dragon wrath of persecution or his "warring" after God's people.

Are you serious? Do you really think there is no dragon wrath now? Seems he is extremely busy setting up things for his final assault. Casting all manner of doubt and confusion in the minds of people. Setting up political conditions secretly (and not so secretly) so the final trap of persecution will spring with terrible deadly power.


Absolutely there is no "wrath" right now, which proves the point further that the opening of the earth's mouth has not occurred yet.The FLOOD, the tares are still in the church, which make him very happy.

Satan has been like a chameleon and changed his colors (ways) and beguiled the church into thinking he is their friend. Two prior times he has switched gears ,as they say. First, when the first heavy persecution didn't work (early apostle church) and then he brought up Constantine to re work the church and it's practices.

Then , being the murderer that he is, tried to again annihilate the church by going after her in the wilderness. This too came to an end, and AGAIN he switched gears and began to infiltrate the church with his FLOOD again (tares). This is the water spewed out of his mouth symbolism.

Therefore, from that very day (1798) NO PERSECUTION from him! The abortionists, the adulterers, the homosexuals, the drunkards, the thiefs, the slanderers, you name it, are happily admitted and kept as "God's children" in his church.

Here are examples of his wiles upon our church and it's leaders, his great "FLOOD" work. This work shall soon stop when the "earth opens it's mouth"--Amen!

"Satan uses men and women as agents to solicit to sin and make it attractive. These agents he faithfully educates to so disguise sin that he can more successfully destroy souls and rob Christ of His glory. Satan is the great enemy of God and man.

He transforms himself through his agents into angels of light. In the Scriptures he is called a destroyer, an accuser of the brethren, a deceiver, a liar, a tormentor, and a murderer. Satan has many in his employ, but is most successful when he can use professed Christians for his satanic work.

And the greater their influence, the more elevated their position, the more knowledge they profess of God and His service, the more successfully can he use them."(Testimonies, vol. 5, p.137)


"Even in our day there have been and will continue to be entire families who have once rejoiced in the truth, but who will lose faith because of calumnies and falsehoods brought to them in regard of calumnies and falsehoods brought to them in regard to those whom they have loved and with who they have had sweet counsel.

They opened their hearts to the sowing of tares; the tares sprang up among the wheat; they strengthened; the crop of wheat became less and less; and the precious truth lost its power to them." (Testimonies to Ministers, p.411)

"The enemy is preparing for his last campaign against the church. He has so concealed himself from view that many can hardly believe that he exists, much less can they be convinced of his amazing activity and power.

They have to a great extent forgotten his past record; and when he makes another advance move, they will not recognize him as their enemy, that old serpent, but they will consider him a friend, one who is doing a good work.

Boasting of their independence they will, under his specious, bewitching influence, obey the worst impulses of the human heart and yet believe that God is leading them. Could their eyes be opened to distinguish their captain, they would see that they are not serving God, but the enemy of all righteousness.

They would see that their boasted independence is one of the heaviest fetters Satan can rivet on unbalanced minds." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.294)

Persecute God's remnant church now? No way! He's got in under control BUT wait until God's angels get involved (Ezek. 9)and opens the earth and removes Satan's tares (FLOOD) THEN we shall see the angry dragon!