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New York City is Babylon? #172607
03/28/15 01:36 AM
03/28/15 01:36 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Quote:
How comes the word that I have declared that New York is to be swept away by a tidal wave? This I have never said. I have said, as I looked at the great buildings going up there, story after story, “What terrible scenes will take place when the Lord shall arise to shake terribly the earth! Then the words of Revelation 18:1-3 will be fulfilled.” The whole of the eighteenth chapter of Revelation is a warning of what is coming on the earth. But I have no light in particular in regard to what is coming on New York, only that I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power. From the light given me, I know that destruction is in the world. One word from the Lord, one touch of his mighty power, and these massive structures will fall. Scenes will take place the fearfulness of which we can not imagine." {'Life Sketches of Ellen White' pg. 411, written August 3, 1903}


I think it's quite possible that what Ellen White saw in 1903 about NYC may happen this fall, possibly sooner. What's especially interesting about the quote is that Ellen White is giving us a clear signal for the Loud Cry - when the Lord arises to shake terribly the earth and the buildings in NYC fall - when that happens, whether tomorrow or this fall or a few years from now, the Loud Cry will be given.  What do you all think? Isn't she saying that?

If we didn't know better this quote could also be taken to mean the NYC itself is Babylon. I don't think Ellen White is saying that but it appears that there is more of a connection between NYC and Babylon than most of us think. I'll give some linkages, hopefully tomorrow or the next day.

Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: Charity] #172612
03/28/15 04:08 AM
03/28/15 04:08 AM
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Babylon is NOT New York City--

"The existing confusion of conflicting creeds and sects is fitly represented by the term “Babylon,” which prophecy applies to the world-loving churches of the last days. {CTr 70}

" Concerning Babylon, the symbol of the apostate church, He says to His ministers of judgment, "Her sins have reached unto heaven, COL 179

"Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these. In amazement they hear the testimony that Babylon is the [Christian] church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from heaven.--The Great Controversy, pp. 606, 607. (1888) {Ev 43.4}

"The churches, represented by Babylon, are represented as having fallen from their spiritual state to become a persecuting power against those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. To John this persecuting power is represented as having horns like a lamb, but as speaking like a dragon.--Testimonies to Ministers, p. 117. (1896)

"We are not to seek any strange, new message. We are not to think that the chosen ones of God who are trying to walk in the light, compose Babylon. The fallen denominational churches are Babylon. Babylon has been fostering poisonous doctrines, the wine of error. This wine of error is made up of false doctrines Review and Herald, Sept. 12, 1893.

Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: Charity] #172627
03/28/15 07:04 PM
03/28/15 07:04 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Babylon in Revelation 18 is described as the source of the world's commerce and therefore of its wealth. Babylon is said to be so important financially to the global economy that when it falls all the businessmen of the world mourn over it because their chances of financial gain appear to go up in smoke along with it.

Babylon also has the ability to influence rules of trade so that no-one can buy or sell without her permission. This power is attached directly to the image of the beast but in order for the image to do this it seems to me as though the image would need the authority of Babylon because Babylon drives the global economic engine. NYC at this point in time is the most influential global financial hub.

Of course NYC is not the only global influence. The WTO (World Trade Organization) sets the rules for international trade. It's headquartered in Switzerland. The World Bank and IMF are headquartered in Washington DC. But, the UN is headquartered in NYC which gives NYC special status as a global political and financial force.

NYC is also the most influential city in the world promoting gay rights. Adventists are asleep at the wheel on this issue in our unwillingness to take a stand on the issue before the Supreme Court next month. But according to prophecy, the beast that ascends from the abyss slays the Two Witnesses of God in the streets of the city called Sodom.
Quote:
And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Rev 11:7-8.

Ellen White confirms that there is more to the mark of the beast than just the day of worship. Until recently I've wondered what else that mark entails. Well, I think it's right in front of our faces now - those opposing homosexuality will face extreme persecution over this issue. If the prophecy is true, their testimony is to be slain in the streets of Sodom and Egypt.

I'll try to find that quote I referred to above. If anyone has it handy please feel free to share it.


Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: Charity] #172628
03/28/15 07:56 PM
03/28/15 07:56 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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It took me a while but thank the Lord I did eventually find the quote:
Quote:
The light we have received upon the third angel's message is the true light. The mark of the beast is exactly what it has been proclaimed to be. Not all in regard to this matter is yet understood, nor will it be understood until the unrolling of the scroll; but a most solemn work is to be accomplished in our world. The Lord's command to His servants is: "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." Isaiah 58:1. {6T 17.1}


Two attention-grabbing things jump out of this quote: 1) That we don't know everything there is to know about the mark of the beast. I've suggested above that Babylon is guilty as Sodom and therefore this figures into the mark. 2) I can't say that categorically because of the other fascinating comment - that we won't know the full extent of what that mark involves until the "unrolling of the scroll."

What scroll is she talking about? The one that Daniel was told to seal and that is in the hand of the Father in Rev. 5, still sealed. It is unrolled when the Lamb takes it and brakes its seven seals one at a time - in the near future friends. I really believe that time is soon and because it's eminent I'm going to venture to make an educated guess based on the description of Babylon as the hold of every unclean spirit and cage of every vile bird that spiritualism and moral depravity are, in addition to Sunday worship, linked to the mark of the beast.

Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: Charity] #172640
03/29/15 08:40 PM
03/29/15 08:40 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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By the way, I agree that apostate Christianity is Babylon. I'm saying that NYC appears to be an important player prophetically in lending it's influence to Babylon.

Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: Charity] #172645
03/30/15 02:41 PM
03/30/15 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
I think it's quite possible that what Ellen White saw in 1903 about NYC may happen this fall, possibly sooner. What's especially interesting about the quote is that Ellen White is giving us a clear signal for the Loud Cry - when the Lord arises to shake terribly the earth and the buildings in NYC fall - when that happens, whether tomorrow or this fall or a few years from now, the Loud Cry will be given.  What do you all think? Isn't she saying that?
I think she is speaking exactly against what you are suggesting. New York is not of any special thing. But it IS part of the earth. When Babylon falls, structures on the earth fall. But she specifically says, "But I have no light in particular in regard to what is coming on New York,". Building there, as elsewhere thought to be resistant to all kinds of things, will fall. But she links that to Babylon falling. It will be too late to use that as any kind of warning. It's over with. Now if you think the end of the world happens this fall, that's one opinion. But to say the buildings specifically in New York will fall this fall as an indication of something else, no. Not according to what she said.

She's saying do not be amazed at all the so call strong structures of man. For they are nothing compared to God's touch and all will fall at the last days. Nothing about New York.

Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: kland] #172654
03/30/15 11:33 PM
03/30/15 11:33 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
I think she is speaking exactly against what you are suggesting. New York is not of any special thing. But it IS part of the earth. When Babylon falls, structures on the earth fall. But she specifically says, "But I have no light in particular in regard to what is coming on New York,". Building there, as elsewhere thought to be resistant to all kinds of things, will fall. But she links that to Babylon falling. It will be too late to use that as any kind of warning. It's over with. Now if you think the end of the world happens this fall, that's one opinion. But to say the buildings specifically in New York will fall this fall as an indication of something else, no. Not according to what she said.


You could interpret the quote that way. That's not unreasonable. I came across one or two other quotes recently though that are consistent with the idea that many cities will be depopulated before probation closes. If it was all "over" when this occurs why would she put it as though the Loud Cry is given after it happens? Also, she is consistent in warning us to leave the cities before probation closes because trouble will come on them before that time.

I've re-posted the quote again below for easy reference.
Quote:
I have said, as I looked at the great buildings going up there, story after story, “What terrible scenes will take place when the Lord shall arise to shake terribly the earth! Then the words of Revelation 18:1-3 will be fulfilled.” {'Life Sketches of Ellen White' pg. 411, written August 3, 1903}

Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: Charity] #172656
03/31/15 05:32 AM
03/31/15 05:32 AM
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Babylon IS fallen.
Rev. 18:1-3 doesn't say Babylon will fall. It says she is fallen and God's people are urgently called to come out.

Babylon is fallen.
This is a spiritual and moral fall.
This fall is not the same as her destruction.
The destruction is linked with "her plagues" for "with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down".

The "Loud Cry" to come out of fallen Babylon must take place before the destruction of Babylon.

The call is to come out of spiritual and morally fallen Babylon so as not to partake of her plagues and destruction.


New York is only one major city in the nation depicted as the "beast with horns like a lamb" that will erect an "image of the beast' and enforce the "mark of the beast". When the plagues and destruction come they will come all over.

There are similar quotes for other cities --

Quote:
"Scenes that would soon take place in Chicago and other large cities also passed before me. As wickedness increased, and the protecting power of God was withdrawn, there were destructive winds and tempests; buildings were destroyed by fire and shaken down by earthquakes. Lake Union Herald March 20, 1906.

"San Francisco and Oakland... they will suffer under His judgments.--Ms 30, 1903.

"As we near the close of this earth's history, we shall have the scenes of the San Francisco calamity repeated
in other places. . . .

EGW's oft repeated urgent message was to reach the cities with the gospel before it was too late.

She also gives a clear picture of the progression of Babylon's fall which leads to destruction.

Quote:
The message of Revelation 14, announcing the fall of Babylon must apply to religious bodies that were once pure and have become corrupt. Since this message follows the warning of the judgment, it must be given in the last days; therefore it cannot refer to the Roman Church alone, for that church has been in a fallen condition for many centuries. Furthermore, in the eighteenth chapter of the Revelation the people of God are called upon to come out of Babylon. According to this scripture, many of God's people must still be in Babylon. And in what religious bodies are the greater part of the followers of Christ now to be found? Without doubt, in the various churches professing the Protestant faith. At the time of their rise these churches took a noble stand for God and the truth, and His blessing was with them. Even the unbelieving world was constrained to acknowledge the beneficent results that followed an acceptance of the principles of the gospel. GC 383

The second angel's message of Revelation 14 was first preached in the summer of 1844, and it then had a more direct application to the churches of the United States....But the message of the second angel did not reach its complete fulfillment in 1844....Not yet, however, can it be said that "Babylon is fallen,... because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." She has not yet made all nations do this...
Not until ..the union of the church with the world shall be fully accomplished throughout Christendom, will the fall of Babylon be complete. GC 390

Revelation 18 points to the time when, as the result of rejecting the threefold warning of Revelation 14:6-12, the church will have fully reached the condition foretold by the second angel, and the people of God still in Babylon will be called upon to separate from her communion. This message is the last that will ever be given to the world; and it will accomplish its work. GC 390

The people of the United States have been a favored people; but when they restrict religious liberty, surrender Protestantism, and give countenance to popery, the measure of their guilt will be full, and "national apostasy" will be registered in the books of heaven. The result of this apostasy will be national ruin. {RH, May 2, 1893 par. 11}

When Protestant churches shall unite with the secular power to sustain a false religion, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution, then will the papal sabbath be enforced by the combined authority of church and state. There will be a national apostasy, which will end only in national ruin.--Ev 235 (1899).

When the state shall use its power to enforce the decrees and sustain the institutions of the church--then will Protestant America have formed an image to the papacy, and there will be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin.--7BC 976 (1910).


Now we don't know all the details how this will come about. I think that is what EGW meant by writing we don't know everything about it -- we won't know until the scroll of earth's history unfolds.
There will be a certain amount of chaos, disasters and trouble, coupled with "signs and wonders" that will be used to get the people to accept a "church/state" arrangement.
Satan works by causing frightful happenings and then offering his solution, by which he seeks to deceive the world.

But the destruction of Babylon comes after.

Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: Charity] #172665
03/31/15 08:46 PM
03/31/15 08:46 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
You could interpret the quote that way. That's not unreasonable. I came across one or two other quotes recently though that are consistent with the idea that many cities will be depopulated before probation closes. If it was all "over" when this occurs why would she put it as though the Loud Cry is given after it happens? Also, she is consistent in warning us to leave the cities before probation closes because trouble will come on them before that time.
I guess I should have qualified my statement. Probation doesn't close at a specific instance for everyone. What I was meaning to say, is that those who are waiting and watching for buildings to collapse, it will be too late for them, their probation would have already closed. Those who have the knowledge of leaving the cities, but don't, would have sealed their own doom.

Quote:
I've re-posted the quote again below for easy reference.
Quote:
I have said, as I looked at the great buildings going up there, story after story, “What terrible scenes will take place when the Lord shall arise to shake terribly the earth! Then the words of Revelation 18:1-3 will be fulfilled.” {'Life Sketches of Ellen White' pg. 411, written August 3, 1903}
Ah. I guess I didn't get what you meant. How I read it is, when the terrible scenes take place, then will be fulfilled the words of Revelation 18:1-3. Meaning, those events fulfill it, and not a sequence implied. Could that not be how to interpret that?

Re: New York City is Babylon? [Re: kland] #172673
04/01/15 12:44 AM
04/01/15 12:44 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Ah. I guess I didn't get what you meant. How I read it is, when the terrible scenes take place, then will be fulfilled the words of Revelation 18:1-3. Meaning, those events fulfill it, and not a sequence implied. Could that not be how to interpret that?

That's a reasonable interpretation. Ellen White is generally precise in her wording. If she meant it that way I think she would have said "then will have been fulfilled" instead of "then will be fulfilled". I can give you an example in her writings of where that distinction in tenses makes all the difference but not tonight.

But let's say she might have meant it as you say. What does the Bible say about the shaking? Does it happen before or after the close of probation? It might be good to do a study on that, especially on the text she quotes and see where that fits in. But I should add that I think you're right that for many of us, probation will be closed when the next shaking happens in the large cities.

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