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Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: APL] #172605
03/27/15 10:56 PM
03/27/15 10:56 PM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
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Supporting Member 2015
Active Member 2015

Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
APL- Perhaps he does not believe EGW - who was inspired:

The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen. Look at the different writers. {1SM 21.1}

Take a look at the above quote then compare it with your other quote from SOP--

It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God.-- Manuscript 24, 1886 (written in Europe in 1886). {1SM 21.2}

And this --

"For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [color:#3333FF]as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."(2 Peter 1:21)[/color]

This clearly points to the fact that it is not man's ideas or private thoughts that make the Scriptures (nor SOP) rather GOD delivering the thoughts upon them.

APL - And EGW, who was inspired also strongly supported the distribution of U. Smith's book, something that would not make him to happy I suspect...

Let's get focused here. Straight from the EGW estate--

Authorship of Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. The report of an early minister that Ellen G. White declared in his presence that she had seen an angel standing by the side of Elder Uriah Smith, inspiring him as he wrote Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, is seriously undercut by the historical facts. It is contrary to authentic Ellen G. White statements that would remove Smith's book from the category of "inspired." However, Mrs. White esteemed this volume highly and freely recommended it. See Colporteur Ministry, page 123

To say EGW "highly and freely" recommended it certainly does not qualify it as "INSPIRED". True, much of it seems quite true, HOWEVER, truth mixed with error can never be a book we claim as an inspired work of God and as such should not use it apart from it's proper setting-- a good human research and historical book.

The best definition of Inspiration I've yet to see-

"In Its Scriptural sense, Inspiration is defined as "a divine influence directly and immediately exerted upon the mind or soul of man" (The New Century Dictionary); in other words, It is a special function of the Spirit of God. It is, therefore, in Its divers manifestations, set in operation, not by the working of the mind itself, but by the power of the Spirit." (Sym. Code, vol.8 no.1-12, p.2)

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 03/27/15 11:20 PM.
Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172606
03/28/15 12:34 AM
03/28/15 12:34 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Your negative tone to "Daniel and Revelation" are still unfounded.

Instruction has been given me that the important books containing the light that God has given regarding Satan's apostasy in heaven should be given a wide circulation just now; for through them the truth will reach many minds. Patriarchs and Prophets, Daniel and the Revelation, and The Great Controversy are needed now as never before. They should be widely circulated because the truths they emphasize will open many blind eyes. . . . Many of our people have been blind to the importance of the very books that were most needed. Had tact and skill then been shown in the sale of these books, the Sunday-law movement would not be where it is today.--{Review and Herald, Feb. 16, 1905}

In The Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, The Great Controversy, and in Daniel and the Revelation, there is precious instruction. These books must be regarded as of special importance, and every effort should be made to get them before the people.--
{Letter 229, 1903}

The light given was that Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, The Great Controversy, and Patriarchs and Prophets, would make their way. They contain the very message the people must have, the special light God had given His people. The angels of God would prepare the way for these books in the hearts of the people.--
{Special Instruction Regarding Royalties, p. 7. (1899)}

Canvassers should be secured to handle the books, Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, Desire of Ages, Daniel and the Revelation, and other books of like character, who have a sense of the value of the matter these books contain, and a realization of the work to be done to interest people in the truth. Special help, which is above all the supposed advantages of illustrations, will be given to such canvassers. The canvassers who are born again by the work of the Holy Spirit, will be accompanied by angels, who will go before them to the dwellings of the people, preparing the way for them. --
{Manuscript 131, 1899}

Daniel and Revelation, Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand.--
{MS 76, 1901}


The Lord calls for workers to enter the canvassing field that the books containing the light of present truth may be circulated. The people in the world need to know that the signs of the times are fulfilling. Take to them the books that will enlighten them. Daniel and Revelation, The Great Controversy, Patriarchs and Prophets, and The Desire of Ages should now go to the world. The grand instruction contained in Daniel and Revelation has been eagerly perused by many in Australia. This book has been the means of bringing many precious souls to a knowledge of the truth. Everything that can be done should be done to circulate Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation. I know of no other book that can take the place of this one. It is God's helping hand.
{21MR 444.3}

Huh - God's helping hand!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: APL] #172610
03/28/15 03:41 AM
03/28/15 03:41 AM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
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Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
Still it is not inspired writings, no matter how much one cuts and dices it. if you declare it so, then that's up to you.

For example--

"To begin with, the reader's attention is called to Elder Uriah Smith's book, originally entitled Thoughts on Daniel and The Revelation, and later Daniel and The Revelation, in which is explained, among other subjects, the subject of "the seven trumpets."

Here one will notice that Elder Smith is not the original author of the exposition of the trumpets. The originators were Messrs. Keith, Clark, Barnes, et al. "Thus far," says Elder Smith, "Keith has furnished us with illustrations of the sounding of the first five trumpets." -- Daniel and The Revelation, p. 506.

Then further in the same chapter, and in explanation of Revelation 9:17, we read: "As the Turks discharged their firearms on horseback, it would appear to the distant beholder, that the fire, smoke and brimstone issued out of the horses' mouths, as illustrated by the accompanying plate." -- Id., p.510. "Barnes thinks this was the case," remarks Elder Smith; "and a statement from Gibbon confirms this view." -- ld., p. 510, footnote.

Thus, plainly, the interpretation of the seven trumpets, as it is found in Thoughts on Daniel and the Revelation, was not originated by the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. But their placing upon it their endorsement makes it appear as Seventh-day Adventist doctrine.

In other words, the theories of uninspired men having the S.D.A. stamp of approval, are made to appear to the S.D.A. laity as genuine S.D.A. Bible doctrines. This goes to show that the majority of Seventh-day Adventists, right along with others, do not ask, "Is it true, -- in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated?" -- Testimonies to Ministers, p.106. And if the theory comes through a popular channel, they as a rule unquestionably accept it!

A fair example is their unhesitatingly applauding such manipulations as rationalizing "the heads of lions" (in the symbolism of Revelation 9:17) into heads of Arabian horses, and the serpent-like tails (Rev. 9:19), into common horses' tails (as evidenced by the accompanying illustration) in order to connect the trumpets with the battles of the Turks!

But even worse, they unhesitatingly agree that the "fire," "smoke,'' and "brimstone" did not issue, as John saw them, from the lion-like mouths, but rather from a gun in the hand of a Turk!

Their accepting these additions and subtractions to and from Holy Writ, a practice condemned by the Scriptures (Rev. 22:18, 19), shows that they are victims of a faulty vision, which causes them to think themselves right when they are all wrong (Testimonies, Vol. 3, pp. 252, 253).

Their subscribing to such a practice, moreover, undermines faith in the Bible, for if the Revelator be wrong in one instance, then can he not be mistaken in other instances also? And if we cannot depend upon the book of The Revelation just as it reads, then how can we put confidence in any of the Bible?

And if inspired prophets cannot declare the positive truth of what they see, then how can uninspired students of their writings declare it?

So, those who learn "to give an answer to every man that asketh...a reason of the hope that is in" (1 Pet. 3:15) them, will have no trouble answering the question:Did John See Correctly?

True, the seer of Patmos was an erring human being like ourselves, but the one who dictated His writings -- the great and infallible I Am, Overseer and Proof Reader of the Scriptures -- was there to see that John made a faithful record of what he saw, for the exact truth of the symbolism means our very life.

Indeed, it is not possible that the Lord would jeopardize our salvation by displaying the symbolism so far removed from John's sight that he could not accurately see and record it, and yet expect to save us by it.

If John failed to see correctly the symbols in the vision, as these supposed-to-be men of learning and experience speciously explain, then does it not imply that God is indifferent as to whether or not He reveals in a misleading way truth which is essential to our salvation? If not, and if John was wrong, why, then, did not God correct him? Was it impossible for Him here to correct His prophet?

"The second angel," says the Revelator, "poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." Rev. 16:3.

If John could not, as is contended, see exactly where the "fire," "smoke," and "brimstone" came from, then how could he see that "every" creature, as he says in the words just quoted, died in the bottom of the sea? Which condition is the more difficult to see with exactness?

The acceptance and the teaching of such interpretations is signboard evidence that there is today gross darkness throughout the church, enveloping both the laity and the watchmen who claim to be the "men of experience" mentioned in Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 293, and elucidated in Tract No. 4, The Latest News for Mother Revised Edition, pp. 32-35.

These men, though exceedingly "unskilful in the Word," as is seen from the foregoing observations, forbid that anything new in which they see no light, be brought before the people.

And despite the fact that such utterly unlawful and light-obscuring restrictions are devised to keep the people forever in their errors, the laity nevertheless accept them without question, and esteem those who devise them as wise and true friends.

And all who refuse to be bound by such restrictions are "cast out" (Isa. 66:5), while multitudes who disbelieve the Spirit of Prophecy are retained, and other multitudes of like unbelief are accepted as members in approved standing! Thus is reenacted the outstanding sin of the Jews, which called forth from the lips of the Saviour the piercing pronouncement:



"If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" Matt. 6:23. (Tract 8, p.7-12)

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 03/28/15 04:16 AM.
Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172613
03/28/15 04:15 AM
03/28/15 04:15 AM
dedication  Offline
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Canada
Neither is (Sym. Code, vol.8 no.1-12, p.2) inspired writings.

Re: A Review of Revelation 12:15-17 [Re: dedication] #172615
03/28/15 04:46 AM
03/28/15 04:46 AM
G
Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
SDA
Supporting Member 2015
Active Member 2015

Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 500
Coachella Valley, Cailf.
Ded- GLL: She says the "end" of the persecution is when the earth (AMERICA) swallows the "flood of persecution".

Yes, that is when the 1260 years of persecution ended.
The 1260 years ended in 1798.


Of course it is. No one is disputing that. what I am saying , again, is that YOU are saying that the "earth swallowing" is the time of 1798 and after.

But we asked you to provide Inspiration that the "earth swallowing"of Rev. 12:16 is shown by INSPIRED references to be time the earth (America) ends the persecution. What you have provided is Daniel and the Revelation , which as we have shown was never declared Inspired by EGW. Recommendation from her, yes but INSPIRED no! She quotes many other authors such as Gibbons, and we don't dare call his writings inspired either.

What you have done is , again, provided a private picture of pulling something from here and there and putting them together and saying "here it is, the proof." Just like we predicted in the beginning of this thread.

When GOD HIMSELF shows the PERFECT explantion for what the "earth swallowing" means (Numbers 16:28-32)--a purification of His people!

Now, again, if you can show us better proof of what Inspiration shows "the Earth opening her mouth" means ,we may consider your side, BUT don't show us un-inspired references to try and disprove what God has shown already to be exact and proven as the symbolism.

Ded-GLL --And goes to make "war" after this swallowing. It's been over 200 years since her idea ended (1798 was the swallowing time's end), and still no dragon wrath of persecution or his "warring" after God's people.

Are you serious? Do you really think there is no dragon wrath now? Seems he is extremely busy setting up things for his final assault. Casting all manner of doubt and confusion in the minds of people. Setting up political conditions secretly (and not so secretly) so the final trap of persecution will spring with terrible deadly power.


Absolutely there is no "wrath" right now, which proves the point further that the opening of the earth's mouth has not occurred yet.The FLOOD, the tares are still in the church, which make him very happy.

Satan has been like a chameleon and changed his colors (ways) and beguiled the church into thinking he is their friend. Two prior times he has switched gears ,as they say. First, when the first heavy persecution didn't work (early apostle church) and then he brought up Constantine to re work the church and it's practices.

Then , being the murderer that he is, tried to again annihilate the church by going after her in the wilderness. This too came to an end, and AGAIN he switched gears and began to infiltrate the church with his FLOOD again (tares). This is the water spewed out of his mouth symbolism.

Therefore, from that very day (1798) NO PERSECUTION from him! The abortionists, the adulterers, the homosexuals, the drunkards, the thiefs, the slanderers, you name it, are happily admitted and kept as "God's children" in his church.

Here are examples of his wiles upon our church and it's leaders, his great "FLOOD" work. This work shall soon stop when the "earth opens it's mouth"--Amen!

"Satan uses men and women as agents to solicit to sin and make it attractive. These agents he faithfully educates to so disguise sin that he can more successfully destroy souls and rob Christ of His glory. Satan is the great enemy of God and man.

He transforms himself through his agents into angels of light. In the Scriptures he is called a destroyer, an accuser of the brethren, a deceiver, a liar, a tormentor, and a murderer. Satan has many in his employ, but is most successful when he can use professed Christians for his satanic work.

And the greater their influence, the more elevated their position, the more knowledge they profess of God and His service, the more successfully can he use them."(Testimonies, vol. 5, p.137)


"Even in our day there have been and will continue to be entire families who have once rejoiced in the truth, but who will lose faith because of calumnies and falsehoods brought to them in regard of calumnies and falsehoods brought to them in regard to those whom they have loved and with who they have had sweet counsel.

They opened their hearts to the sowing of tares; the tares sprang up among the wheat; they strengthened; the crop of wheat became less and less; and the precious truth lost its power to them." (Testimonies to Ministers, p.411)


"The enemy is preparing for his last campaign against the church. He has so concealed himself from view that many can hardly believe that he exists, much less can they be convinced of his amazing activity and power.

They have to a great extent forgotten his past record; and when he makes another advance move, they will not recognize him as their enemy, that old serpent, but they will consider him a friend, one who is doing a good work.

Boasting of their independence they will, under his specious, bewitching influence, obey the worst impulses of the human heart and yet believe that God is leading them. Could their eyes be opened to distinguish their captain, they would see that they are not serving God, but the enemy of all righteousness.

They would see that their boasted independence is one of the heaviest fetters Satan can rivet on unbalanced minds." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p.294)


Persecute God's remnant church now? No way! He's got in under control BUT wait until God's angels get involved (Ezek. 9)and opens the earth and removes Satan's tares (FLOOD) THEN we shall see the angry dragon!

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 03/28/15 05:38 AM.
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