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Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Mountain Man] #172768
04/06/15 01:05 PM
04/06/15 01:05 PM
Rosangela  Offline OP
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
"So, people are born with defects of character (sins of ignorance} which they will later manifest and develop."
1) Will they manifest and develop all of them and become guilty of them?
2) Or, will they avoid manifesting and developing some of them?
3) If so, are they guiltless of the ones they do not manifest and develop?
4) Why do sins of ignorance require a Savior if people are guiltless?

1) It depends of how long they will live and of the circumstances they will go through.
2) Nobody is conscious of his own defects until he manifests them, at least in thought. After he manifests them and becomes conscious of them, with the help of God he can avoid manifesting them again.
3) God does not consider us guilty of things of which we are unconscious. "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains" (John 9:41).
4) Not being bound for the lake of fire doesn't mean you are bound for heaven. Remember the slaves Ellen White mentions.

Quote:
Yes, I believe children begin sinning shortly before they are born.

And what happens before they sin? If they die before sinning this means they don't need a Savior?

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #172769
04/06/15 05:25 PM
04/06/15 05:25 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: So, your answer to my question is - Paul sinned until the day he died.

R: No! You asked: "Did Paul ever reach the point where he was no longer practicing the sinful habits he cultivated while in the world?" My answer was that yes, Paul reached the point where he was no longer practicing the sinful habits he cultivated while in the world, otherwise he wouldn't have said, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor. 11:1). This doesn't mean that, at this point, he was totally exempt from defects of character. We are born with natural defects of character which we will have to subdue until our vile body is changed.

Is subduing defective traits of character the same as sinning? That is, was Paul guilty of sinning because he possessed defective traits of character which required subduing?

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
"Christ will never neglect the work that has been placed in His hands. He will inspire the resolute disciple with a sense of the perversity, the sin-stained condition, the depravity, of the heart upon which He is working. The true penitent learns the uselessness of self-importance. Looking to Jesus, comparing his own defective character with the Saviour's perfect character, he says only-- 'In my hand no price I bring; Simply to Thy cross I cling.'" {HP 64.6}

This insight does not mean they are guilty of sinning, guilty of nurturing their cultivated sinful traits of character. Nor does it mean they are guilty of sinning ignorantly. Having defects is not the same as acting them out. We are not guilty of sinning if we abide in Jesus and refuse to cherish or act out our defects.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #172770
04/06/15 05:51 PM
04/06/15 05:51 PM
Rosangela  Offline OP
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
For someone to be guilty of sinning, that person must commit a sin - which is an act, or thought. For someone to need a Savior, that person needs just to have a sinful nature.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #172783
04/08/15 04:52 PM
04/08/15 04:52 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I agree we must cherish sin or act it out in thought, word, or deed to incur guilt and condemnation. However, I disagree having a sinful nature in and of itself requires a Savior. "He took upon Him our sinful nature." "In taking upon Himself man’s nature in its fallen condition, Christ did not in the least participate in its sin." "He took upon himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin."

We are born again with a new nature, a new will, a new heart, a new mind, new tastes, new tendencies, new appetites, new passions, etc. "It is the privilege of every believer in Christ to possess Christ’s nature, a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression." "We need not retain one sinful propensity." Nevertheless, like Jesus, we also possess a sinful, fallen, degraded, defiled nature. And, like Jesus, if we do not participate in its sin we are guiltless. So long as we do not cherish or act out its unholy lusts and affections we do not incur guilt or condemnation.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #172796
04/09/15 02:43 AM
04/09/15 02:43 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
The fruit of abiding of Jesus is good. The fruit of living by every word is good.

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #172985
05/03/15 11:13 AM
05/03/15 11:13 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Blessings everyone,

Since we are born with a carnal and sinful nature, our natural tendency is to sin. Jeremiah tells us that our hearts are deceitful, meaning that we actually fool ourselves into thinking we are good on some level.

Having our minds (hearts) changed to being submissive to God's will is completely foreign to our minds except for a certain gift of faith that God gives everyone.

We simply need to love God more than ourselves and allow our thinking to be changed to God's thinking. I know, much easier said than done. The answer to all these details will come with the experience.

Alchemy

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Mountain Man] #173319
05/14/15 03:46 PM
05/14/15 03:46 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
"Christ will never neglect the work that has been placed in His hands. He will inspire the resolute disciple with a sense of the perversity, the sin-stained condition, the depravity, of the heart upon which He is working. ..." {HP 64.6}

This insight does not mean they are guilty of sinning..,

Perverse, sin-stained, and depraved. This can describe one who you consider guiltless? Does this describe Jesus' nature?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #173332
05/15/15 01:54 AM
05/15/15 01:54 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, sounds like you are assuming HP 64 describes believers who are acting out the evil desires of sinful flesh or are somehow guilty of the evil desires of sinful flesh. Here's what she said about it in HP 64:

Quote:
Through the power that Jesus gives, we can be "more than conquerors." But we cannot manufacture this power. Only through the Spirit of God can we receive it. {HP 64.2}

We need a deep insight into the nature of Christ and into the mystery of His love, "which passeth knowledge" (Ephesians 3:19). We are to live in the warm, genial rays of the Sun of Righteousness. Nothing but Christ's loving compassion, His divine grace, His almighty power, can enable us to baffle the relentless foe and subdue the opposition of our own hearts. What is our strength? The joy of the Lord. Let the love of Christ fill our hearts, and then we shall be prepared to receive the power that He has for us. {HP 64.3}

Let us thank God every day for the blessings that are ours. If the human agent will humble himself before God, . . realizing his utter inability to do the work that needs to be done in order that his soul may be purified; if he will cast away his own righteousness, Christ will abide in his heart. He will put His hand to the work of creating him anew, and will continue the work till he is complete in Him. . . . {HP 64.4}

Beholding Christ for the purpose of becoming like Him, the seeker after truth sees the perfection of the principles of God's law, and he becomes dissatisfied with everything but perfection. . . . But he knows that with the Redeemer there is saving power that will gain for him the victory in the conflict. The Saviour will strengthen and help him as he comes pleading for grace and efficiency. {HP 64.5}

Christ will never neglect the work that has been placed in His hands. He will inspire the resolute disciple with a sense of the perversity, the sin-stained condition, the depravity, of the heart upon which He is working. The true penitent learns the uselessness of self-importance. Looking to Jesus, comparing his own defective character with the Saviour's perfect character, he says only - "In my hand no price I bring; Simply to Thy cross I cling." {HP 64.6}

I read statements like the one above and rejoice Jesus empowers us to recognize and resist sin, self, and Satan. Seems like you read them and conclude everything Jesus empowers us to do is stained with sin and selfishness.

Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Mountain Man] #173381
05/16/15 04:09 PM
05/16/15 04:09 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Actually, the statements above should clarify that depravity and perversity are unacceptable to God, even in the Christian.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does the converted Christian have unknown defects of character? [Re: Rosangela] #173383
05/16/15 09:46 PM
05/16/15 09:46 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, are Christians perverse and depraved? Is everything Jesus empowers them to do stained with sin and selfishness?

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