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Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172905
04/25/15 11:56 PM
04/25/15 11:56 PM
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Charity  Offline
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I'll be interested in seeing your material. While you were posting you might have missed my follow up posts. Did you notice my reply to Kland and the material on the Roman connection to 666 by Stan and myself?

Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172906
04/26/15 12:02 AM
04/26/15 12:02 AM
dedication  Offline
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Mark --
first of all the (666) in parenthesis was not put there by EGW, it was not part of her actual writing.

Secondly, she never repeated that statement when she had the same vision printed in her own books.

Thirdly, there is no "image beast" in Revelation 13. There is seven headed beast, a two horned beast, and an image to the beast, which the two horned beast forces upon the world causing all the world to worship the first beast. “saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.”.

This image beast is, in fact, an image of the first beast - Papal Rome.

Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172907
04/26/15 12:10 AM
04/26/15 12:10 AM
dedication  Offline
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Quote:
""Whatever may have been Mrs. White's reason for deleting the passage in question it certainly was not to conceal a view generally abandoned. We think that the unprejudiced reader will conclude that this mark-of-the-beast paragraph was dropped out, not with evil intent to conceal, but simply to save space or to avoid repetition or perhaps to avoid ambiguity until a more comprehensive statement might be made"


That statement is true -- because when EGW OMITTED the sentence in her own published writings in 1851 those who believed it was the two horned beast and 666 churches HAD NOT ABANDONED that position.

They were still teaching it for 10 more years -- abandoning it around 1861

Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: His child] #172909
04/26/15 01:56 AM
04/26/15 01:56 AM
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gordonb1  Offline
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Originally Posted By: His child
You may remember that I tweeted 8 times from Sept 2011 t0 Sept 2012 that Pope Benedict would not be pope in 2013.
You may not know that from 8/21/2011, I tweeted over 50 times
that Iran will attack America's fleet in the Gulf.

Yes Henry you correctly assessed Benedict's short reign, repeatedly. I recall many naysayers. Quite startling that he was succeeded by a Jesuit, and one from Buenos Aires, of all spots on the globe!
But what do you mean of the Gulf attack? Iran is one of the most pacifist of developed countries, America the most bellicose - and often creating pretext for military response, as in the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident to launch the Vietnam war, or the "45-minute-weapons-of-mass-destruction" to pre-emptively start the Iraq war in 2003. (Or the faked Kuwait incubator-babies testimony to spur the 1990 Gulf War.) There is a MUCH higher probability that American forces would provoke Iran with a covert attack, because this is their track record.(i.e. U.S. fires first shot)

If and when, it will be catastrophic. There must be thousands of U.S. sailors on ships & carriers in the Gulf. This seems a needless irritant and increases risks of confrontation. Iran is a powerhouse quite different from Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya.
____________________________

Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: dedication] #172914
04/26/15 11:55 PM
04/26/15 11:55 PM
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Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
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Ded- --When EGW left out that whole sentence concerning the 666 when her first books were published, many of the other pioneers still were holding on to the idea that the total of Protestant churches registered with the state in America = 666.
So EGW did not delete it because others had changed their understanding. "We may therefore reasonably conclude that whatever Mrs. White may have intended by her words in the deleted passage, she did not intend to teach that the “666” represented the total of Protestant churches".


Yes, this certainly was not Biblical and rightly abandoned.

Originally Posted By: James White 1861-

"Some have made a grand mistake in defining "the number of his name." They suppose this refers to the two-horned beast, and that his number is "six hundred three-score and six," the number of existing organizations, and in order to get the victory over the number of his name, it is supposed to be necessary to reject all sectarian names. This may not be your position. But whether it is, or is not, we wish here to show that the "number of his name" is the number of the name of the Papal beast. The "beast" and "his image" are mentioned five times or more in the Revelation, without the explanation in connection showing what beast, or what image, as if elsewhere fully explained. The definite specifications are given in Chap.xiii. The "beast" represents the Papacy, the "image" is the image of Papacy, the "mark" is the mark of the Papal beast, and the "number of the beast" is the number of the Papal beast." {July 16, 1861 ARSH 52.22}

After studying our upcoming Scripture report I would say the underlined statement is not true, written by James White.

Ded- Besides there is no "image beast" in Rev. 13.
So we ask what is meant by the "Image Beast?" It can't refer to the two horned beast, that beast isn't the image but it makes an image to another -the 1st beast. Thus the image (or likeness) is of the 1st beast which is the holder of the title and number. The logical conclusion is to view the expression "Image Beast," as the acceptance of the titles of the 1st beast.


True there is no Image beast , however the pioneers knew which Beast they were describing (Two-horned Beast). We'll get more into this in the report.

Ded- The church, including EGW, were in agreement that the number 666 was the number of the man of sin -- the papal head.

Quote:
"The beast with two horns “causeth [commands] all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” [Revelation 13:16, 17] The third angel's warning is, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God.”

“The beast” mentioned in this message, whose worship is enforced by the two-horned beast, is the first, or leopard-like beast of Revelation 13,—the papacy. The “image to the beast” represents that form of apostate Protestantism which will be developed when the Protestant churches shall seek the aid of the civil power for the enforcement of their dogmas. GC88 445


The underline you put, is another issue (leopard-like beast) but we'll deal with that also. Remember, we must not conclude that EGW had ALL the light, and that God limited her light in certain areas. She is partly correct here as we shall see. Not wrong, just partly correct. Incomplete in other words.


"We have many lessons to learn, and many many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be dis-appointed." (TM, p.300)

I believe these Inspired words do not exclude our beloved prophetess.

Ded-The number is the trade mark of the name of the 1st beast and all who worship him, giving their allegiance to the man of sin, rather than to the Creator God, and help enforce the papal sign of authority will also receive his mark.

I believe your view here is not Biblical as we'll see.

HisChild- I have continued to study and pray since we last communicated

Good, then review our upcoming report and give us your input.

In regards to your post 172896 -Dedication. I have no disagreement that the pioneers were in confusion and that James White had certain beliefs that he wrote out. However the Scriptures must reveal upon close study the plain truth and if it can be shown that JW's view does not hold up we must abandoned it.

Ded-
The two horned beast (America) is not the 666, for America brought freedom of religion -- her Protestantism and republicanism have been a blessing to humanity, not a curse.

We are not saying that 666 is America. For It says it is a "man".

as far as the GC p.580 quote, yes "homage" will be paid but she shall receive that in acknowledgment of her changing the Sabbath day. Notice carefully that Rome is 'aiming" to re-establish her power. She does not get it though, as we mistakenly believe.

Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: Charity] #172915
04/27/15 12:24 AM
04/27/15 12:24 AM
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Godsloveandlaw  Offline OP
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Mark- According to Strong's Concordance the original Greek that's translated 666 is based on three Greek letters, the 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter between the fifth and sixth letters, which would make it the sixth before it became obsolete. So, according to Strong's the 22nd letter stands for 600, the 14th for 60 and the obsolete 6th letter for six. I'm open to any other research on this but if Strong's is correct, and translation scholars seem to be quite unanimously agreed, the accepted translation is correct.

Yes, I would agree. The 666 in Rev.13:18 looks like the real deal.

Mark- GLL, I have to agree with you that this statement attributes 666 to the image beast.

I am glad you are wearing your "truth detector" glasses. You see what many others see and we'll go over that more. But as Dedication rightly mentioned there is no "Image beast" , you meant to say connected with the Two-horned Beast I think.

Quote:
Gal 6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Mark- In this text the word "marks" is the obsolete Greek cross letter, G4742, so the passage could read, ". . . for I bear in my body the cross of the Lord Jesus." Perhaps this is confirming the persecuting nature of the image beast. As in the death of Christ the instrument of death was a Roman cross.

Interesting. sure possible.

Last edited by Godsloveandlaw; 04/27/15 12:33 AM.
Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: gordonb1] #172916
04/27/15 01:10 AM
04/27/15 01:10 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: gordonb1
But what do you mean of the Gulf attack? Iran is one of the most pacifist of developed countries, America the most bellicose - and often creating pretext for military response, as in the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident to launch the Vietnam war, or the "45-minute-weapons-of-mass-destruction" to pre-emptively start the Iraq war in 2003. (Or the faked Kuwait incubator-babies testimony to spur the 1990 Gulf War.) There is a MUCH higher probability that American forces would provoke Iran with a covert attack, because this is their track record.(i.e. U.S. fires first shot) If and when, it will be catastrophic. There must be thousands of U.S. sailors on ships & carriers in the Gulf. This seems a needless irritant and increases risks of confrontation. Iran is a powerhouse quite different from Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya.

In light of your observations, I find it disturbing to think you are describing America during her Lamblike beast phase. I cannot imagine what things will be like when she forms an image to the beast and speaks like a dragon enforcing the mark of the beast. There is no indication she is going to do it any time soon. But she will do it soon enough. Here's how it is described in the SOP:

Quote:
ST 11-1-1899
In vision John beheld the trials which God’s people would endure for the truth’s sake. He saw their unyielding firmness in obeying the commandments of God, in the face of the oppressive powers that sought to force them into disobedience, and he saw their final triumph over the beast and his image.

Under the symbols of a great red dragon, a leopard-like beast, and a beast with lamblike horns, the earthly governments which would especially engage in trampling upon God’s law and persecuting His people, were presented to John. The war is carried on till the close of time. The people of God, symbolized by a holy woman and her children, were represented as greatly in the minority. In the last days only a remnant still existed. Of these John speaks as they “which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

Through paganism, and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his power for many centuries in an effort to blot from the earth God’s faithful witnesses. Pagans and papists were actuated by the same dragon spirit. They differed only in that the Papacy, making a pretense of serving God, was the more dangerous and cruel foe. Through the agency of Romanism, Satan took the world captive. The professed church of God was swept into the ranks of this delusion, and for more than a thousand years the people of God suffered under the dragon’s ire. And when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon’s voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The “two horns like a lamb” well represent the character of the United States Government, as expressed in its two fundamental principles, Republicanism and Protestantism. These principles are the secret of our power and prosperity as a nation. Those who first found an asylum on the shores of America rejoiced that they had reached a country free from the arrogant claims of popery and the tyranny of kingly rule. They determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty.

But the stern tracing of the prophetic pencil reveals a change in this peaceful scene. The beast with lamblike horns speaks with the voice of a dragon, and “exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him.” Prophecy declares that he will say to them that dwell on the earth that they should make an image to the beast, and that “he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads; and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Thus Protestantism follows in the steps of the Papacy.

It is at this time that the third angel is seen flying in the midst of heaven, proclaiming: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation.” “Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” In marked contrast to the world stands the little company who will not swerve from their allegiance to God. These are they of whom Isaiah speaks as repairing the breach which had been made in the law of God, they who are building the old waste places, raising up the foundation of many generations.


Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172919
04/27/15 02:17 AM
04/27/15 02:17 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: GLL
Originally Posted By: Dedication
The number is the trade mark of the name of the 1st beast and all who worship him, giving their allegiance to the man of sin, rather than to the Creator God, and help enforce the papal sign of authority will also receive his mark.


I believe your view here is not Biblical as we'll see.


The scriptures warns everyone not to receive the mark or number -- this strongly suggests that all who worship the beast, giving their allegiance to the man of sin rather than to the Creator and help enforce the papal Sunday sign of authority will also receive his mark.

Rev. 14:9 If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,


Originally Posted By: Great Controversy
“If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God.” [Revelation 14:9, 10] A correct interpretation of the symbols employed is necessary to an understanding of this message. What is represented by the beast, the image, the mark? {GC88 438.1}

....beast, “like unto a leopard,” to which the dragon gave “his power, and his seat, and great authority.” This symbol, as most Protestants have believed, represents the papacy...

...But the beast with lamb-like horns was seen “coming up out of the earth.”...One nation, and only one, meets the specifications of this prophecy; it points unmistakably to the United States of America....Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity.{gc 439}

...But what is the “image to the beast”? and how is it to be formed? The image is made by the two-horned beast, and is an image to the first beast. It is also called an image of the beast. Then to learn what the image is like, and how it is to be formed, we must study the characteristics of the beast itself, —the papacy. GC 443

...In order for the United States to form an image of the beast, the religious power must so control the civil government....

....Apostasy led to seeking the aid of civil government....

... The wide diversity of belief in the Protestant churches is regarded by many as decisive proof that no effort to secure a forced uniformity can ever be made. But there has been for years, in churches of the Protestant faith, a strong and growing sentiment in favor of a union based upon common points of doctrine. To secure such a union, the discussion of subjects upon which all were not agreed—however important they might be from a Bible standpoint—must necessarily be waived. {GC88 444.1}


Interesting that EGW refers to "the wide diversity of belief" issue.

Papal Rome has long pointed to that vast diversity among protestant churches as evidence of the need for the Roman Catholic authority to bring some unity to Christendom.

Now, we see a lot of these denominational churches having "discussions" to find points of unity amongst themselves. Who is behind all these discussions?

Originally Posted By: Building Bridges Toward Unity
When Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was chosen to succeed Pope John Paul II, he made one priority clear. His first written message as Benedict XVI on April 20, 2005, as reported by the official Catholic news agency, Zenit, stated “a primary commitment” was “to work without sparing energies for the reconstitution of the full and visible unity of all the followers of Christ.”

On February 10, 2010, he “invited a Lutheran delegation from the United States to treasure the accomplishments of ecumenism and work so that full unity can one day be realized.

“‘Since the beginning of my pontificate, I have been encouraged that relations between Catholics and Lutherans have continued to grow, especially at the level of practical collaboration in the service of the Gospel’…He expressed hopes that ‘continuing Lutheran-Catholic dialogue both in the United States of America and at the international level will help to build upon the agreements reached so far.’

“The Bishop of Rome concluded citing words from Pope John Paul II, ‘during whose pontificate so much was accomplished on the road to full visible unity among Christians


That's just one example.
Many more have taken place in the last few years.

We can't forget a very recent one -- Tony Palmer and his video with a speech by Pope Francis at an Evangelical rally in America. here Stating that the Protest of Protestantism is dead, and calling for Christian unity.

And remember, this ecumenical unity is conditional on accepting the papal primacy.

Pope Francis will address a joint session of Congress on Sept. 24, 2015, the first time the head of the Roman Catholic Church will address the ruling house of the United States.


CONCLUSION:
The image of the beast is the protestant world (still holding their denominational names) joined in unity under the primacy of the papacy using the state to enforce the ecumenical papal led religion.

Quote:
"God's Word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. {FLB 329.5}

The world is filled with storm and war and variance. Yet under one head--the papal power--the people will unite to oppose God in the person of His witnesses. This union is cemented by the great apostate.--7T 182 (1902). {LDE 131.5}










Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: dedication] #172920
04/27/15 01:52 PM
04/27/15 01:52 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
There is no image beast . . . This image beast is, in fact, an image of the first beast - Papal Rome.


Dedication, if the image has a life of it's own and can speak and legislate oppressive laws, it is a beast in the truest sense isn't it?

Quote:
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev 13:15-18


I'll concede that the "his" underlined above can refer back to either the first beast or the image of it or both. Ellen White's statement, in fairness, favors the number being applied to the image beast. James White and JN Andrews and Smith all favor the beast itself. Both may be right. After all, the one is the image of the other. We may have to allow time to be the interpreter because the sealed book is still at least partly sealed. I wouldn't spend too much time on this.

Re: What does "666" represent in Prophecy? [Re: Godsloveandlaw] #172927
04/27/15 04:44 PM
04/27/15 04:44 PM
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kland  Offline
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It took me awhile to try to understand what the complaint of the (666) was. As I now understand it, some are questioning that the image beast does not have 666 but the beast it is an image to has 666. Now if something is an image, it should look the same. So why cannot both have the number 666? It is an image of it.

But seems to me on another thread in the past, there was question as to whether there is three: the beast, the two horned beast, and the image of the beast.

But as far as 666 goes, it seems silly to me to try to add up letters of someone's name or title to make it come out right. Other churches have a heyday with Adventists for doing that. Does not scripture give enough details and characteristics of the beasts that no one needs a calculator? Really, if the name doesn't add out correctly, does no one recognize the beast for what it is?!

I believe that could be a reason why Ellen White never used / corrected / or what ever is being claimed. It's not important to the issue. There is enough to determine who and what is being talked about without pulling out your calculators.

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