HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
kland 15
Rick H 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
ProdigalOne
ProdigalOne
Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,168
Joined: June 2015
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,970 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Review of Entropy #176563
09/02/15 11:24 PM
09/02/15 11:24 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
From Wikipedia:
In thermodynamics, entropy (usual symbol S) is a measure of the number of specific ways in which a thermodynamic system may be arranged, commonly understood as a measure of disorder. According to the second law of thermodynamics the entropy of an isolated system never decreases; such a system will spontaneously proceed towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the configuration with maximum entropy.


One must be cautious about "order", for some have seen hexagonal patterns in mud or rock and said, see, that's a sign of Intelligent design, not.

For entropy is more than just "disorder" as to what we would call "ordered" or "unordered". It also involves energy and temperature.

Entropy is an extensive property. It has the dimension of energy divided by temperature,


That is, the hexagonal patterns observed have less energy than if they were not in hexagonal patterns. Systems seek the lowest order with the least amount of energy. While wax honeycomb may seek a lower order of a melted pool, at a higher temperature, mud and rocks seek a lower order, even if they form a pattern, at a lowered temperature. Over time, the rocks eventually break down, becoming sand, and then soil. The comb may disintegrate, insects and bacteria may break it down.

To put in a very general term, things run down if left to themselves. Life is an uphill battle.


Many believe that God not only has created the laws of physics, but He sustains the laws of physics.

Ellen White has this to say:
Not by its own inherent energy does the earth produce its bounties, and year by year continue its motion around the sun. An unseen hand guides the planets in their circuit of the heavens. {FLB 28.3}
The God of heaven is constantly at work. It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears and every flower blooms. Every drop of rain or flake of snow, every spire of grass, every leaf and flower and shrub, testifies of God. These little things so common around us teach the lesson that nothing is beneath the notice of the infinite God, nothing is too small for His attention. {FLB 28.4}


This is not to say that God causes entropy, but that other laws of physics, which some atheists say just keep going without God, Ellen White here, and elsewhere, is saying that God is constantly keeping them going. For without God, all would go into entropy.

But now we have someone on another thread suggestting otherwise.
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Nature is not self-acting. Jesus cannot simply withdraw and allow nature to work destruction of its own accord or volition. Nature would cease to work if Jesus ceased to employ it. Fire would not burn or exist if Jesus ceased to employ it. Nature works because Jesus works it.

True, nature is not self-acting. But here he is saying that the laws of entropy do not work on it's own, that Jesus has to intentionally cause things to run down. That Jesus not only causes the forest to grow, He causes it to decay, to run down. It's not that Jesus gives energy to life on earth, but He takes that energy away, to run things down.

This would also mean that when the rain falls, it doesn't run down to a lower entropy state, but it would stay on the hills, would pile up in a liquid mass, if Jesus didn't make it flow down.

I disagree. Nature runs down if Jesus doesn't uphold it.

All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of God. From the highest seraph to the humblest animate being, all are replenished from the Source of life. {FLB 164.2}


Upon all created things is seen the impress of the Deity. Nature testifies of God. The susceptible mind, brought in contact with the miracle and mystery of the universe, cannot but recognize the working of infinite power. Not by its own inherent energy does the earth produce its bounties, and year by year continue its motion around the sun. An unseen hand guides the planets in their circuit of the heavens. A mysterious life pervades all nature--a life that sustains the unnumbered worlds throughout immensity, that lives in the insect atom which floats in the summer breeze, that wings the flight of the swallow and feeds the young ravens which cry, that brings the bud to blossom and the flower to fruit. {Ed 99.1}
The same power that upholds nature, is working also in man. The same great laws that guide alike the star and the atom control human life. The laws that govern the heart's action, regulating the flow of the current of life to the body, are the laws of the mighty Intelligence that has the jurisdiction of the soul. From Him all life proceeds. Only in harmony with Him can be found its true sphere of action. For all the objects of His creation the condition is the same--a life sustained by receiving the life of God, a life exercised in harmony with the Creator's will. To transgress His law, physical, mental, or moral, is to place one's self out of harmony with the universe, to introduce discord, anarchy, ruin. {Ed 99.2}


Is discord, anarchy, ruin nothing other than entropy?

Shall we consider that all created things die by the will of God?

No!

It is that all created things live by the will of God!

The passage speaks of the earth not by its own inherent energy producing its bounties. It means if it wasn't from God's energy, the earth WOULD NOT produce it's bounties. One must not misconstrue her words to mean that by God's energy does the earth NOT produce it's bounties when those times happen.

Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176575
09/03/15 04:48 PM
09/03/15 04:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Kland, you need to back up your observations with actual quotes that say so. It is not enough for you to simply say so. Now, where in the Bible or in the SOP does it say - The laws regulating things deteriorating from death to decay to dust act independent of Jesus' power (i.e. act of their accord and volition).

By the way, on a different but similar note, the reason people die the first death, instead of living forever, is because Jesus denies them free access to the tree of life. Both the Bible and the SOP says so in no uncertain terms. Listen:

Quote:
Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Had man after his fall been allowed free access to the tree of life, he would have lived forever, and thus sin would have been immortalized. But cherubim and a flaming sword kept "the way of the tree of life" (Genesis 3:24), and not one of the family of Adam has been permitted to pass that barrier and partake of the life-giving fruit. Therefore there is not an immortal sinner. {GC 533.3}

In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct. It was Satan's plan that Adam and Eve should by disobedience incur God's displeasure; and then, if they failed to obtain forgiveness, he hoped that they would eat of the tree of life, and thus perpetuate an existence of sin and misery. But after man's fall, holy angels were immediately commissioned to guard the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light having the appearance of a glittering sword. None of the family of Adam were permitted to pass the barrier to partake of the life-giving fruit; hence there is not an immortal sinner. {PP 60.3}

Again, the reason sinners do not live forever is because Jesus denies them free access to the tree of life. They die because of action taken by Jesus.

Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176583
09/03/15 09:01 PM
09/03/15 09:01 PM
K
kland  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
MM, what passages did you just read that I posted?

I don't believe you are understanding entropy.

If Jesus sustains the earth to produce it's bounties, then what do you suppose will happen if Jesus no longer sustains it?

If there is an active force causing something to happen, that does not require there to be an "anti-active" force causing something to not happen.

If you were to keep pouring water in a bucket with a hole in it to maintain it's level, what happens if you stop adding inputs to it?

Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176604
09/04/15 04:09 PM
09/04/15 04:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Kland, if Jesus ceased enabling nature to act, nature would cease to exist. Nature is not self-acting. Simple as that. No Jesus, no nature. Gravity is not self-acting. Jesus must act for gravity to act. No Jesus, no gravity. Etc.

Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176606
09/04/15 06:21 PM
09/04/15 06:21 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Christ is the "Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9. As through Christ every human being has life, so also through Him every soul receives some ray of divine light. Not only intellectual but spiritual power, a perception of right, a desire for goodness, exists in every heart. But against these principles there is struggling an antagonistic power. The result of the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is manifest in every man's experience. There is in his nature a bent to evil, a force which, unaided, he cannot resist. To withstand this force, to attain that ideal which in his inmost soul he accepts as alone worthy, he can find help in but one power. That power is Christ. Co-operation with that power is man's greatest need. In all educational effort should not this co-operation be the highest aim? {Ed 29.1}

Is Christ working against Himself to cause evil, to cause sickness, disease, and death? No. Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

God does not cause sickness, disease, and death.

Although the earth was blighted with the curse, nature was still to be man's lesson book. It could not now represent goodness only; for evil was everywhere present, marring earth and sea and air with its defiling touch. Where once was written only the character of God, the knowledge of good, was now written also the character of Satan, the knowledge of evil. From nature, which now revealed the knowledge of good and evil, man was continually to receive warning as to the results of sin. {Ed 26.2}

In drooping flower and falling leaf Adam and his companion witnessed the first signs of decay. Vividly was brought to their minds the stern fact that every living thing must die. Even the air, upon which their life depended, bore the seeds of death.
{Ed 26.3}

Continually they were reminded also of their lost dominion. Among the lower creatures Adam had stood as king, and so long as he remained loyal to God, all nature acknowledged his rule; but when he transgressed, this dominion was forfeited. The spirit of rebellion, to which he himself had given entrance, extended throughout the animal creation. Thus not only the life of man, but the nature of the beasts, the trees of the forest, the grass of the field, the very air he breathed, all told the sad lesson of the knowledge of evil.
{Ed 26.4}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176634
09/05/15 04:30 PM
09/05/15 04:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL, evil angels are not at liberty to cause death, disease, and destruction. They must have Jesus' permission. They are not free to do as they please. They must receive permission from Jesus. Jesus determines what they can do, how they can do it, where they can do it, and when they can do it. They are not free to do as they please. Jesus works to ensure they do not exceed the limits He sets.

Also, nature is not self-acting. If Jesus ceased to act, nature would cease to act or cease to exist. The idea that Jesus need only cease restraining the pent up forces of nature for it to wreak havoc is "science falsely so called".

Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176644
09/05/15 11:35 PM
09/05/15 11:35 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
God has suspended the natural consequence of sin temporarily. This is part of the Great Controversy. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. {DA 764.2} The inevitable results of sin is that it causes the sinner to perish. The inevitable results of sin is not execution by God. Sin pays its wage.

MM's view is that God decides who will be raped, who will be murdered, which children will be abused and then manages how much. Is there any free will? Death and destruction are not the works of God, but of Satan and sin.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176649
09/06/15 12:28 AM
09/06/15 12:28 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
MM's view is that God decides who will be raped, who will be murdered, which children will be abused and then manages how much. Is there any free will? Death and destruction are not the works of God, but of Satan and sin.

Jesus (God) does not prevent freewill. People are free to think and to act. Jesus may or may not be free to intervene and prevent rape, murder, etc. Circumstances dictate whether He can or cannot. Jesus is not free to protect everyone. He is bound by rules of engagement according to the Great Controversy. Sometimes circumstances demand that He prevent rape, murder, etc. And sometimes circumstances demand that He permit it.

Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176650
09/06/15 12:31 AM
09/06/15 12:31 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
APL's view is that Jesus (God) withdraws His protection and permits evil men and evil angels to cause death, disease, and destruction. He also believes evil men and evil angels are not free to do as they please. They must receive permission from Jesus to wreak havoc. Jesus also works to ensure they do not exceed the limits He sets. They are only allowed to do what Jesus is willing to permit. No more, no less.

I agree with APL.

Re: Review of Entropy [Re: kland] #176652
09/06/15 01:28 AM
09/06/15 01:28 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
But MM - you say God inflicts sickness and death. Which it is? MM - you can tell who is doing what. That is a problem.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderator  Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1