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Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: Charity] #177126
09/26/15 01:28 PM
09/26/15 01:28 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
Mark,

If you're going to build a case based on reckoning of Biblical times, then you cannot shrug off the importance of getting those times right. I understand that you want to bring out a more important truth which you believe applies to our time. But therein lies the difficulty--does it apply to this time?

Of course, we have Mrs. White saying that there will be no more prophecy upon definite time...which, if it applies to this, would put the biggest damper on the whole venture of reckoning. But, if you ARE going to reckon, then you must be precise about your methods in doing so.

Saying that the lifespan years from Adam to Abram would be rounded up, and then saying they didn't count partial years (rounding down), contradicts yourself, logically speaking. I don't know how you can accept such logic, but I could not, and do not. If this sort of methodology is followed in other portions of your reckoning, we can safely conclude that you might arrive at whichever date you set out to establish.

Mrs. White said that time after time would be set, and fail to come to pass, and that each one would weaken the faith of some. Finally, she says, a date will be set too far into the future, again with dire results.

Perhaps we're back at the question of if we should even be spending time on such a discussion. I realize that there are some times of which we perhaps can and should be aware--but if Jesus is to come in a Jubilee year, and if we are to have no more message upon definite time (which a Jubilee would certainly be), then perhaps we already know the answer.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: Charity] #177127
09/26/15 01:46 PM
09/26/15 01:46 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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GC, while you were typing this I edited my post. Have a look at the edited version. I'm taking your comments seriously. The post is the one where I comment on pre-flood reckoning.

If you disagree that's not a problem. I'm asking the readers to weigh the evidence. Are we at the start of Daniel's 70th seven?

Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: Charity] #177128
09/26/15 01:51 PM
09/26/15 01:51 PM
APL  Offline
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Mark, it is interesting that William Miller used similar logic to point to 1844, though he had different starting dates. He spoke of 7 types, [1] 7th-day Sabbath, [2] 50-ieth day Sabbath (Pentacost), [3] 7th-week Sabbath, [4] 7th-month Sabbath, [5] 7-th year Sabbath, [6] 50-ieth year Jubilee, AND [7] 50-ieth Jubilee.

He had different starting dates for the Jubilee, which pointed to 31AD as a Jubilee and 1844AD as a Jubilee, the 50-ieth Jubilee.

Using Miller's dates, 2015 is mid between Jubilees.

Both can't be right, and both can be wrong. EGW said Time is no longer a test, and she said Christ could have come after 1888, which negates your theory, or so it seems to me Mark. We do have a final "guidepost" that the Adventist pioneers wrote about. It has not happened yet. God has been holding the 4 winds for some time now.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: Charity] #177129
09/26/15 02:22 PM
09/26/15 02:22 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
GC, while you were typing this I edited my post. Have a look at the edited version. I'm taking your comments seriously. The post is the one where I comment on pre-flood reckoning.

If you disagree that's not a problem. I'm asking the readers to weigh the evidence. Are we at the start of Daniel's 70th seven?


Ok, I have looked at your revised post. And here's the portion I would like to address:

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
GC, you're right that the inspired rule is to round up regarding ages. So we have a couple options. Either assume the pre-flood reckoning is accurate or assume it follows the scriptural rules of age reckoning. If it is the latter, the average error pre-flood would be an added half year per generation. Noah was the tenth generation from Adam so the total pre-flood reckoning would be about 5 years less if you assume the years given are rounded up. That assumption should be looked at carefully though before adopting it.


You're getting the 5 years from the assumption that each one would only round up by one year. But the fact is you have both a birth year and a death year for each person (in the case of Genesis, a birth year and a birth year--but that sounds too confusing), leading to a maximum possible rounding of two years per generation, and a minimum of zero. The mathematical average between two and zero, both of which are unlikely for a given generation if rounding is done, would be one year. So for ten generations, subtract ten years. This is what I have done with my own time calculations. If you study the times of the kings of Israel versus those of Judah, you will see examples of a two-year rounding for one of the kings who both came and went during a long reign of a king on the other side. I've observed these Biblical details carefully, so, again, I'm not merely picking at flaws in your logic. In fact, perhaps due to differing times of the year of the coronation and demise of one of the kings, we appear to have a three year discrepancy on one of them. You can find it in 2 Kings 13:1-10. You will see that in the 23rd year of Joash, king of Judah, Jehoahaz, son of Jehu, becomes king of Israel. He reigns for 17 years, and dies, following which his son becomes king in the 37th year of Joash, king of Judah. Doing the math, 37 - 23 = 14 years, and yet Jehoahaz is said to reign for 17 years. It matters little if one argues that the years were rounded, the scribes recorded the years in error, or some error was inserted along the way--the result is similar: we cannot fully rely on the numbers that look easiest to work with. This is why more reliable numbers must be found, such as those of Ezekiel's prophecy.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: APL] #177130
09/26/15 02:24 PM
09/26/15 02:24 PM
G
glenm  Offline
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Active Member 2018
Posting New Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 45
Colorado, USA
An interesting perspective on this issue can be gotten by doing a Google search on a term like "3430 years".

The 70-jubilee scheme is an old one, and people have set forth all sorts of starting dates. My favorite so far is 1563 B.C. as the starting date, with the ending date at 1868 A.D.

A prominent recent example of this approach is Larry Wilson, who went with 1437 B.C. to 1994 A.D.

Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: APL] #177132
09/26/15 06:05 PM
09/26/15 06:05 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Mark, it is interesting that William Miller used similar logic to point to 1844, though he had different starting dates. He spoke of 7 types, [1] 7th-day Sabbath, [2] 50-ieth day Sabbath (Pentacost), [3] 7th-week Sabbath, [4] 7th-month Sabbath, [5] 7-th year Sabbath, [6] 50-ieth year Jubilee, AND [7] 50-ieth Jubilee.
Well, my friend, again I'm in good company - Miller's and Christ's. You know how highly Ellen White speaks of Miller's prophetic understanding. He was wrong on some things, but look at the powerful way he was used by God. We're still reaping the blessings of the Second Great Awakening today.

I want the readers to understand that in saying we're now in the 70th and final Jubilee of Daniel 9 my only message and intent is to mirror our Lord's use of the same prophecy in His day. "The time is fulfilled, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand. Repent ye, and believe the gospel". Mark 1:15.

Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: Charity] #177133
09/26/15 06:11 PM
09/26/15 06:11 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
If anyone wants a secure link to America UnderJudgment email me at mark.shipowick@gmail.com. This topic is in the appendix.

Is anyone interested in some thoughts/observations on the "super Jubilee" in Ezekiel's temple?

Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: glenm] #177154
09/29/15 10:55 PM
09/29/15 10:55 PM
C
Charity  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Originally Posted By: glenm
It might be useful to say something about the Jewish calendar in 1844 and 2015.

In the late summer of 1844, when the "seventh month movement" kicked in, the Millerites needed to determine the beginning of the seventh month. One choice was September 14, as found on the standard Jewish calendar. The other choice was the new moon a month later.

The Millerites made the latter choice, and Damsteegt's book in the "Words of the Adventist Pioneers" database gives the details. This choice is the basis for the October 22 1844 date for the Day of Atonement.

The years 1844 and 2015 have identical dates on the standard Jewish calendar for the beginning of the seventh month, like this:

9/14/1844 Rosh Hashana 5605

9/14/2015 Rosh Hashana 5776

The reason why the dates are identical is because 2015 is 171 years removed from 1844, and 171 is a multiple of 19, and the Jewish calendar is known to run in a 19-year cycle.

The 19-year cycle is based on the fact that a period of 19 solar years is almost identical to 235 lunar months. The 235 lunar months is based on allocating 12 lunar months for each of the 19 years, for a total of 228 lunar months, and then intercalating an additional 7 lunar months, to make 235 lunar months. The intercalation is required to keep the Jewish holidays from drifting with the seasons, for example Passover in the fall or Tabernacles in the spring.

I don't know if specific dates in any year after 1844 will ever be important prophetically. GC 399.4 makes the argument that the fall types must have antitypical fulfillments at some point, and this was the reasoning for the specific date in 1844.

Whether this applies to the antitypical Trumpets and Tabernacles I can't say.

However, it seems to me that we should keep in mind the calendar choice that the Millerites made in 1844, and ask why they did things this way.
Glen, I could be wrong about the timing of the 2015 Day of Atonement. It may be next month. The two years are very similar astronomically. Because of the slight differences bewteen this year and 1844 I thought the modern rabbis were right. I may be wrong.

Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: Charity] #177173
09/30/15 04:20 PM
09/30/15 04:20 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Why can no one determine when the year begins?!

Is it equinox?
Is it barley harvest?

Each person insists they're correct. (Except Mark allows he could be wrong, which isn't the case of the majority)

We talked about a 24 day on a round earth and the international date line. What about siting of the moon on a round earth? And what if the siting of that moon on the round earth determines when the year begins?

= part of the earth started one month, and the other part started the next month.

Then what?

Re: A Super Jubilee [Re: kland] #177179
09/30/15 09:41 PM
09/30/15 09:41 PM
G
glenm  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018
Posting New Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 45
Colorado, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Why can no one determine when the year begins?!

Is it equinox?
Is it barley harvest?

Each person insists they're correct. (Except Mark allows he could be wrong, which isn't the case of the majority)

We talked about a 24 day on a round earth and the international date line. What about siting of the moon on a round earth? And what if the siting of that moon on the round earth determines when the year begins?

= part of the earth started one month, and the other part started the next month.

Then what?

With regard to your posting and the last one by Mark, a couple of comments.

I think we have to assume that the Jewish feasts and calendar are mediated by divine intervention. Since there has not been a temple service for nearly 2000 years, and since God's glory left the temple around 2600 years ago, accurately determining feast dates can be tricky.

I have some software that displays standard Jewish calendars, but the standard calendar is algorithmic rather than being based on observation, and there is reason to believe that the application of the standard rules often results in setting the seventh month too early in the season.

I don't know why the Millerites did what they did, but it was a deliberate choice to ignore the standard Jewish calendar, and I have to believe that there was divine leading involved.

There is a free PDF download that gives an idea of calendars in use in Christ's time. The book is "Babylonian Chronology" by Parker & Dubberstein. The book tends to confirm the choice the Millerites made.

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