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Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? #178012
11/13/15 12:35 PM
11/13/15 12:35 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Many times when scripture support is lacking in a discussion, many has resorted to discredit me by quoting EGW and putting me in a spot. Those that have been here for awhile like kland knows very well my position. I have replied in the past years numerous times my position which I have clearly stated the following :

#1 - I believe the Lord used EGW as a prophet

#2 - while studying the law(Pentateuch) I understood years later that one of His purpose in sending prophets was to test us whether or not we will follow the Lord's Word or not.

#3 - I am grateful for her and James counsel that it was our Christian duty to stand on scriptures alone.

#4 - I value that James & EGW told us not to quote Ellen.

#5 - Value her work in the health reform

#6 - I am not here to bash EGW or any other brothers and sisters as we are to uplift each other and not the opposite.

#7 - Just recently I realized the Lord has not canonized EGW's writings like He did with the OT and the NT.

I didn't want to start this discussion. ProdigalOne, who is new here and doesn't know me nor my position, had went way off-topic in a discussion and I have answered his numerous posts & comments. Then after a few pages I have ask him kindly to start another discussion if he wanted to go further into this off-topic to understanding my position. He did not but preferred to continue sending me warnings in that discussion by which I would of answered in a new appropriate discussion. After that, for the time being, Prodigalone has ceased; however our dear brother kland has not and is doing his job well in taking whatever opportunity to continue his work in doing what he does best. So thanks to Kland, I am opening this discussion so I can address these here.


Below is the exchange Prodigalone and I had on this subject.

Quote:
Elle : #3. With all honesty, I think no one of us (SDAs) should or can quote any of EGW's writings because our Church failed to make a cleanup(canonize) her writings. All the EGW writings we have we do not know which texts comes straight from her pen. She had a large team of people working and writing for her that we are told that Ellen has approved. Plus some of EGW writings has been changed here and there even after her death and we are told that she had approved or would approve of it by the white estate. I have known an SDA and heard of others who goes to the extend to not trust any EGW's writings dating after 1881 -- when James White died and ceased to oversee her writings.

I do believe the Lord spoke to Ellen, however until our Church does the work needed to clean up and tell us what actually came from the pen of Ellen…’till then I only have the Holy Scriptures and the guidance of the the Holy Spirit to rely on.

ProdigalOne :Elle, I believe we must trust that God has preserved the integrity of the Spirit of Prophesy. If we begin to doubt the veracity of the messages the Lord has gifted the Church with, then this same line of logic will lead us to question the Bible itself! After all it is far older and has passed through far more hands than the SOP writings.

Questioning God's power to preserve the Word that He has once delivered to us has led more than one denomination, and I'm afraid even some Seventh Day Adventists to disaster. With no firm foundation, we are left blind and bound to fall into a pit...

The quote below is from 1883, two years after your deadline; however, these words were not written behind closed doors, in some private study. Sister White spoke these words in a sermon in front of the General Conference. That is a rather large number of respectable witnesses. I believe them to be accurate:

"When you find men questioning the testimonies, finding fault with them, and seeking to draw away the people from their influence, be assured that God is not at work through them. It is another spirit..."

1SM 45.1 - From a sermon at the General Conference of 1883

Elle :I understand and respect your position.

I thought it interesting that you acknowledge the validity of James Arrabito's work; so in this are you agreeing that our Church has been infiltrated by the Jesuit?

There is an old picture from the 1888 conference having all the men(5 of them) sitting next to Ellen in the front row doing the masson's secret hidden hand symbol. There is an interesting discussion here on this forum about this. Only from the picture there's a large possibility that the SDA Church was infiltrated as early as 1888 or even sooner. So to me those that suspect any writings beyond 1881 is not that far fetch.

Personally this infiltration doesn't botter me and see this as part of the Lord's plan not only for the SDA Church but for all churches. We need to remember that all the Beasts Empires were set by the Lord to serve His purpose(Rom 13).

ProdigalOne :I heard about James Arrabito long before I joined this site. While I am not 100% certain of the validity of Alberto Rivera's testimony, I have no doubt that the SDA denomination has been infiltrated by the Jesuits. It's just too logical a move for them not to have done it.

Elle : Tx for confirming and I agree that it is too logical for them not to have done it.

ProdigalOne :I agree, it doesn't bother me that the SDA Church has been infiltrated. It is just another reason to check everything by the Bible. Although, I have faith that God has preserved the writings of ALL of His prophets, the writings of Ellen White should also be checked out with Scripture. So far, I have found no discrepancies between the two.

Since "all things, (are) set by the Lord to serve His purpose"(Rom 13)
would it not serve our Father's purpose to preserve intact the messages
He sent to His children through His Prophets, including those He delivered
through Ellen White?

Elle :In History the Lord canonize the OT before Christ 1st coming and again canonized the NT writings afterwards. The writings of EGW have not been canonized nor is it in the GCs agenda. I think it is very presumptuous to think that all of EGW writings has been preserved without seeing the same work the Lord has done with OT & NT.

ProdigalOne :Have you considered what would motivate infiltrators of the SDA to allow their presence be detected? It would be an absolutely Machiavellian method of sewing the seeds of doubt about the veracity of a major portion of the Spirit of Prophesy, and they wouldn't have to lift a finger.

Elle :I see it this way -- The Lord has always provided a lot of reasons for people to neglect their duty to test all things against the Law of Moses which is the foundation of all truth(Is 8:20). Prophets has always been tested against the Law. And also to take note....prophets has to grow into their ministry. They are not without human errors. That's why canonizing their work is important and was needed in the past. The biggest error prophets do is they bring their own interpretation of the Lord's Word received in the beginning of their ministry. It takes lots of refinement and maturity to come and accept that most of the time the Lord did not provide interpretation. The Lord only requires of them to speak His Word given without adding or subtracting to it.


The Lord has canonized the OT and the NT in the past; shouldn't we as a Church take up our Christian duty in canonizing all of EGW's writings? Filtering out what has not come from her pen, and filtering out what was her interpretations and preserving only the WORD heard from the Lord's mouth according to Deut 18, Deut 13 and Is 8:20?

While this work has not been done, should any one of us quote EGW? (by which was against her and James counsel to do at the first place see position #3 and #4 above)


Blessings
Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: Elle] #178030
11/14/15 08:25 AM
11/14/15 08:25 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,168
Alberta, Canada

Elle, your only justification for rejecting the writings of Sister White seems to be that they have not been "canonized"?  

Is it your contention that God is powerless to preserve the urgent messages He delivered through His end time Prophet?  Are His desperately needed warnings and wisdom only valid when they have been vetted by some church committee?


Most of the books of the New Testament were read and distributed as Scripture by individual Christians and church’s for hundreds of years before their church councils claimed to give us the Bible.

In fact since the New Testament was not "canonized" until 397AD by the (Catholic) Council of Carthage: according to your reasoning it would seem that for over 350 years following the crucifixion of Christ, the Church should not have quoted ANY of the New Testament!


"My sheep hear my voice".  John 10:27

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Hebrews 11:1

"But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]".
Hebrews 11:6

Where is your faith? 


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: Elle] #178031
11/14/15 08:28 AM
11/14/15 08:28 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,168
Alberta, Canada
By the way, how exactly did "the Lord canonize the OT and the NT in the past"??


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: Elle] #178036
11/14/15 11:32 AM
11/14/15 11:32 AM
Rick H  Offline
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
Many times when scripture support is lacking in a discussion, many has resorted to discredit me by quoting EGW and putting me in a spot. Those that have been here for awhile like kland knows very well my position. I have replied in the past years numerous times my position which I have clearly stated the following :

#1 - I believe the Lord used EGW as a prophet

#2 - while studying the law(Pentateuch) I understood years later that one of His purpose in sending prophets was to test us whether or not we will follow the Lord's Word or not.

#3 - I am grateful for her and James counsel that it was our Christian duty to stand on scriptures alone.

#4 - I value that James & EGW told us not to quote Ellen.

#5 - Value her work in the health reform

#6 - I am not here to bash EGW or any other brothers and sisters as we are to uplift each other and not the opposite.

#7 - Just recently I realized the Lord has not canonized EGW's writings like He did with the OT and the NT.

I didn't want to start this discussion. ProdigalOne, who is new here and doesn't know me nor my position, had went way off-topic in a discussion and I have answered his numerous posts & comments. Then after a few pages I have ask him kindly to start another discussion if he wanted to go further into this off-topic to understanding my position. He did not but preferred to continue sending me warnings in that discussion by which I would of answered in a new appropriate discussion. After that, for the time being, Prodigalone has ceased; however our dear brother kland has not and is doing his job well in taking whatever opportunity to continue his work in doing what he does best. So thanks to Kland, I am opening this discussion so I can address these here.


Below is the exchange Prodigalone and I had on this subject.

Quote:
Elle : #3. With all honesty, I think no one of us (SDAs) should or can quote any of EGW's writings because our Church failed to make a cleanup(canonize) her writings. All the EGW writings we have we do not know which texts comes straight from her pen. She had a large team of people working and writing for her that we are told that Ellen has approved. Plus some of EGW writings has been changed here and there even after her death and we are told that she had approved or would approve of it by the white estate. I have known an SDA and heard of others who goes to the extend to not trust any EGW's writings dating after 1881 -- when James White died and ceased to oversee her writings.

I do believe the Lord spoke to Ellen, however until our Church does the work needed to clean up and tell us what actually came from the pen of Ellen…’till then I only have the Holy Scriptures and the guidance of the the Holy Spirit to rely on.

ProdigalOne :Elle, I believe we must trust that God has preserved the integrity of the Spirit of Prophesy. If we begin to doubt the veracity of the messages the Lord has gifted the Church with, then this same line of logic will lead us to question the Bible itself! After all it is far older and has passed through far more hands than the SOP writings.

Questioning God's power to preserve the Word that He has once delivered to us has led more than one denomination, and I'm afraid even some Seventh Day Adventists to disaster. With no firm foundation, we are left blind and bound to fall into a pit...

The quote below is from 1883, two years after your deadline; however, these words were not written behind closed doors, in some private study. Sister White spoke these words in a sermon in front of the General Conference. That is a rather large number of respectable witnesses. I believe them to be accurate:

"When you find men questioning the testimonies, finding fault with them, and seeking to draw away the people from their influence, be assured that God is not at work through them. It is another spirit..."

1SM 45.1 - From a sermon at the General Conference of 1883

Elle :I understand and respect your position.

I thought it interesting that you acknowledge the validity of James Arrabito's work; so in this are you agreeing that our Church has been infiltrated by the Jesuit?

There is an old picture from the 1888 conference having all the men(5 of them) sitting next to Ellen in the front row doing the masson's secret hidden hand symbol. There is an interesting discussion here on this forum about this. Only from the picture there's a large possibility that the SDA Church was infiltrated as early as 1888 or even sooner. So to me those that suspect any writings beyond 1881 is not that far fetch.

Personally this infiltration doesn't botter me and see this as part of the Lord's plan not only for the SDA Church but for all churches. We need to remember that all the Beasts Empires were set by the Lord to serve His purpose(Rom 13).

ProdigalOne :I heard about James Arrabito long before I joined this site. While I am not 100% certain of the validity of Alberto Rivera's testimony, I have no doubt that the SDA denomination has been infiltrated by the Jesuits. It's just too logical a move for them not to have done it.

Elle : Tx for confirming and I agree that it is too logical for them not to have done it.

ProdigalOne :I agree, it doesn't bother me that the SDA Church has been infiltrated. It is just another reason to check everything by the Bible. Although, I have faith that God has preserved the writings of ALL of His prophets, the writings of Ellen White should also be checked out with Scripture. So far, I have found no discrepancies between the two.

Since "all things, (are) set by the Lord to serve His purpose"(Rom 13)
would it not serve our Father's purpose to preserve intact the messages
He sent to His children through His Prophets, including those He delivered
through Ellen White?

Elle :In History the Lord canonize the OT before Christ 1st coming and again canonized the NT writings afterwards. The writings of EGW have not been canonized nor is it in the GCs agenda. I think it is very presumptuous to think that all of EGW writings has been preserved without seeing the same work the Lord has done with OT & NT.

ProdigalOne :Have you considered what would motivate infiltrators of the SDA to allow their presence be detected? It would be an absolutely Machiavellian method of sewing the seeds of doubt about the veracity of a major portion of the Spirit of Prophesy, and they wouldn't have to lift a finger.

Elle :I see it this way -- The Lord has always provided a lot of reasons for people to neglect their duty to test all things against the Law of Moses which is the foundation of all truth(Is 8:20). Prophets has always been tested against the Law. And also to take note....prophets has to grow into their ministry. They are not without human errors. That's why canonizing their work is important and was needed in the past. The biggest error prophets do is they bring their own interpretation of the Lord's Word received in the beginning of their ministry. It takes lots of refinement and maturity to come and accept that most of the time the Lord did not provide interpretation. The Lord only requires of them to speak His Word given without adding or subtracting to it.


The Lord has canonized the OT and the NT in the past; shouldn't we as a Church take up our Christian duty in canonizing all of EGW's writings? Filtering out what has not come from her pen, and filtering out what was her interpretations and preserving only the WORD heard from the Lord's mouth according to Deut 18, Deut 13 and Is 8:20?

While this work has not been done, should any one of us quote EGW? (by which was against her and James counsel to do at the first place see position #3 and #4 above)


When we who are spiritually discerning, see the work of the Holy Spirit in Gods people or the fruit/truth that comes out from them, we recognize it as God leading and whether it is a prophet, a leader or just a God fearing member, we know the source.

The Bible as Ellen White made clear, is the unshakeable standard by which all truth must be compared, and if does not match up, we must reject it..

Isaiah 8:20 King James Version (KJV)

20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: ProdigalOne] #178042
11/14/15 01:04 PM
11/14/15 01:04 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
By the way, how exactly did "the Lord canonize the OT and the NT in the past"??

What I read from the Bible is the Lord is Sovereign -- meaning He has a plan since the foundation of this earth and all things(events) worked according to His plan.

AV Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


We know the OT & NT was canonized, thus just the fact it was - shows it was the Lord's doing and working via the Holy Spirit.


Blessings
Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: Elle] #178044
11/14/15 01:32 PM
11/14/15 01:32 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,168
Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne
By the way, how exactly did "the Lord canonize the OT and the NT in the past"??

What I read from the Bible is the Lord is Sovereign -- meaning He has a plan since the foundation of this earth and all things(events) worked according to His plan.

AV Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:


We know the OT & NT was canonized, thus just the fact it was - shows it was the Lord's doing and working via the Holy Spirit.



Elle, I notice that you have not replied to my previous post. Here it is for a third time:

"Most of the books of the New Testament were read and distributed as Scripture by individual Christians and church’s for hundreds of years before their church councils claimed to give us the Bible.

In fact since the New Testament was not "canonized" until 397AD by the (Catholic) Council of Carthage: according to your reasoning it would seem that for over 350 years following the crucifixion of Christ, the Church should not have quoted ANY of the New Testament!"

Is this your belief?


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: Elle] #178045
11/14/15 01:56 PM
11/14/15 01:56 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,168
Alberta, Canada

Elle said:

"I think it is very presumptuous to think that all of EGW writings has been preserved without seeing the same work the Lord has done with OT & NT."


Are you saying that ALL of Paul's writings, ALL of Peter and John's writings, ALL of David and Solomon and Isaiah's writings have been preserved? If this were the case we would likely need a much larger Bible!

It seems more likely that the portions of their writings that were necessary to deliver God's messages to humanity were preserved.


Elle said:

"We know the OT & NT was canonized, thus just the fact it was - shows it was the Lord's doing and working via the Holy Spirit."

According to your own logic, the very fact that so much of Sister White's writings have been preserved "shows it was the Lord's doing and working via the Holy Spirit."


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: Elle] #178046
11/14/15 02:36 PM
11/14/15 02:36 PM
ProdigalOne  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,168
Alberta, Canada


Elle said:

"I didn't want to start this discussion. ProdigalOne, who is new here and doesn't know me nor my position, had went way off-topic in a discussion and I have answered his numerous posts & comments. Then after a few pages I have ask him kindly to start another discussion if he wanted to go further into this off-topic to understanding my position. He did not but preferred to continue sending me warnings in that discussion..."


Elle, I do not regret going off of topic previously. When I see error being presented as truth, I have no choice, but to speak. No matter what forum, or what the purported topic, we are told to-

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine..."
2Timothy 4:2,3

Elle, it is apparent that you have already reached the point where you "will not endure sound doctrine". Still, I must try.
Please, hear the words of God's Prophet, they were written for you...

If you lose confidence in the Testimonies you will drift away from Bible truth. I have been fearful that many would take a questioning, doubting position, and in my distress for your souls I would warn you. How many will heed the warning?
Testimonies for the Church 5:672-680


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: ProdigalOne] #178047
11/14/15 02:37 PM
11/14/15 02:37 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne

Elle, your only justification for rejecting the writings of Sister White seems to be that they have not been "canonized"?

This is the problem. We should accept each other’s position and conviction without patronizing the other knowing that the Lord is there to correct all of us when needed.

I think patronizing church members that rely on Scripture alone is violating freedom of conscience that Martin Luther fought for in favor in trusting the Lord’s ability to teach and lead individuals into truths.(1Jn 2:27) However, I do understand this persecution is in the Lord’s plan and they are doing the Lord’s work(see post#176793). “All things worked together for good”.

Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne

Is it your contention that God is powerless to preserve the urgent messages He delivered through His end time Prophet?

No. But I believe the Lord is consistent in His ways and will act in the same manner He has acted in the past.
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne

In fact since the New Testament was not "canonized" until 397AD by the (Catholic) Council of Carthage: according to your reasoning it would seem that for over 350 years following the crucifixion of Christ, the Church should not have quoted ANY of the New Testament!

Nor this give anyone the validity to quote everything or anyone as having authority without first testing it with the help of the Holy Spirit according to Deut 13, Deut 18, Is 8:20 and other texts of the sort. This is our Christian Duty.

We all need to follow the Holy Spirit and His teachings. If He tells you that quote is from Him or this other guys study(or part of it) is from Him, then keep it; but don’t impose it on others or judge them because they don’t believe as you do.
Originally Posted By: ProdigalOne

Where is your faith?
Nice touch!
I do trust in the Lord’s ability to teach, correct, and lead all men in the truth – “who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” AV 1Ti 2:4


Blessings
Re: Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? [Re: ProdigalOne] #178048
11/14/15 03:45 PM
11/14/15 03:45 PM
E
Elle  Offline OP
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Quote:
Elle : I think it is very presumptuous to think that all of EGW writings has been preserved without seeing the same work the Lord has done with OT & NT.

ProdigalOne : Are you saying that ALL of Paul's writings, ALL of Peter and John's writings, ALL of David and Solomon and Isaiah's writings have been preserved? If this were the case we would likely need a much larger Bible!

Not sure I understand what you are saying. I assume(don't know if anyone can prove this) that there were more writings of one writer that didn’t make the canon. So I don't think that everything an individual wrote made the canon. I believe what did make the Canon is what the Lord intended to be because He was behind the event thought no one can prove that because you cannot see Him.

Many reject the authencity of the Bible which is ok also. In His appointed time He will make clear what is truth and what is not. For now, in His wisdom He saw fit that the weeds to grow with the good seeds. I will trust in His ways and plan.

Quote:
Elle : We know the OT & NT was canonized, thus just the fact it was - shows it was the Lord's doing and working via the Holy Spirit."

ProdigalOne : According to your own logic, the very fact that so much of Sister White's writings have been preserved "shows it was the Lord's doing and working via the Holy Spirit."

I think you somehow mistakenly equate the word “preserve” with “canonize”. To me, they are not the same.

I don’t think that only 100+ years of an individual's writings existence is much of a proof of being preserve.

I’m sure you do not believe Joseph Smith’s writings is proof of being the word from the mouth of the Lord just because his writings is still “preserve” today.

I don't believe that the “preservation of some writings” is the Lord’s sign that these are His Word. This is not compatible with what Scripture teaches us about the Lord’s way to test all things described in Deut 13, Deut 18, Is 8:20 and etc...

Last edited by Elle; 11/14/15 04:00 PM. Reason: for clarity

Blessings
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by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
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