*****STAFF EDIT *****

Double witness --
as used here is the greatest method by which to be deceived. The world is FULL of "witness" to falsehood. Believe false doctrine and there will be lots of witnesses telling or showing you that the false is true, and the true is false.

I fully agree with Green's statement above:
"If ever we needed her (God's messages through EGW) before, we sure need them now"

I'm afraid that Elle has believed a lot of witnesses from the opposite side -- the "everyone will be saved" the "earthly kingdom" a restructured world, when this old world will evolve into a better world, and the 1000 years of Christ's reign -- Those messages did not originate from her -- there is a whole gamut of Satan's witnesses pushing a wide spectrum of shades of those same messages, preparing the world for his (satan's) majestic appearance with his retinue of "masters" -- the greatest deception to befall the human race.

I can only urge everyone to NOT listen to these "witnesses" get back to the plain reading of scripture, and yes -- God sent a prophet so we don't have to be deceived by the many witnesses that are popping up all over the world to deceive people in these last days.

Yet even her words are being lifted out of context, rearrange and made to say things she never, ever believed.
If you want to know what she says concerning a subject, don't just read the paragraphs people have chosen to push their agenda, get out her books and read whole chapters that deal with the subject.

The same with scripture -- read whole chapters, whole books of the Bible, get to know what is written there in the context in which it was written.

Amen, dedication!

And learn to understand how they were written so as to not quote them out of context.And believe what she writes! Many who claim to believe the SOP, but then twist the plain statements of truth into a lie.

Elle, you did not reply to my previous post, regarding my brother-in-law.

After accepting the Sabbath truth, he was led to reject it by heeding at least five of the signs (or whatever you choose to call them) you have listed as your method of obtaining a double witness of the Holy Spirit.

Elle said:

"It can be in the form of a newspaper headline, or a bulletin board that has a message, a person sharing something about the subject, the Lord brings the question in your own life and you live it, a dream, a vision, a small still voice that you heard, an strong clear audible voice, a leading to a particular study or scripture, .... or any event via anything that happens that relates to the question and speaks to you."

My brother-in-law received "confirmation" or a "second witness" from his Charismatic pastor, ("a person sharing something about the subject"); yet another "witness" from ("a vision"); yet another "witness" from ("a small still voice that you (he)heard"); yet another "witness" from ("an strong clear audible voice"); yet another "confirmation" from ("a leading to a particular study or scripture"): Ephesians 2:8 and Ephesians 2:15.

What was the result of following this method of interpretation? A fine, godly, young man deceiving and being deceived (shortly after this, he told me of his intention to enter the Charismatic ministry).



By following your method of interpretation, you have also been led away from the Truth and it appears that you wish to convince others to follow you down this subjective path.


Remember: "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9

Sorry, been a little busy here with the Spring chores and other stuff. BTW I'll be quite busy these coming months until December. So I'll need to be more selective about what I have time to answer. I have 4 more discussions that is waiting for me to reply. So if I don't answer things, it is not because I don't want to, it's because I don't have the time.




Your example here is not a good example. And then lots of details are missing. So I'll have to make some assumptions to cover these gaps just to give an answer in relation to this example. But let's take this example and work with what we got.

1. You are assuming that "Sabbath truth" the way we(SDAs) understand it and present it is the TRUTH. As you know from other discussions (that is one of them that I need to return to) that my understanding is our(SDAs) understanding of the "Sabbath truth" is very superficial, lacking, and of the Judaisers type of mindset that Paul spent so much time to correct.

Also, I do know how our(SDAs) approach of presenting "truth" which is unlawful to my view of understanding the [spiritual]food laws. According to these laws, you need to give time for the hearer to meditate on the subject(chew the cud) and let the Holy Spirit confirm it or reject it.

Your brother-in-law may of been impressed with the message initially after hearing it, but he had to meditate and follow the Holy Spirit's leading.

2. I think your brother-in-law might of been hearing the Holy Spirit to reject that type of "truth". And also it's possible that he might of heard what he wanted to hear because of his own heart idols. But from the way you have represented the situation I would say the former is more of his case.

It boils down to this -- it is between him and the Holy Spirit to sort this out if he heard right or wrong His leading. You need to stay out of it and not to judge him by thinking he is following the devil.

3. This example might be a case where it was not the will of God to go to that evangelistic meeting or Bible study, because the command to go did not originate from Him. It might of been your persuasion and your voice. I don't know the situation. But the point here is if the whole incidence was not initiated by the Lord at the first place, then there's really nothing to receive a confirmation for. For the case of your brother-in-law, let suppose the Lord didn't command him to go to the meeting and he went to the meeting to please you. He heard the Sabbath message, that he needed to test and seeked the leading of the Holy Spirit. And he did the right thing.

Let's suppose the other scenario where the Lord did lead him to the meeting, and let's say the message was presented lawfully [(a)not treating the message as truth; (b)encouraging time for the hearer to chew the matter on his own with the Holy Spirit (c)encouraging the hearer to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit to reject or accept the message or parts of it; (d)not presenting the message with fear ], and he prays to the Lord without putting aside his heart idols(pre-conceived ideas); thus according to Ezk 14:4 if you seek some signs to confirm what your pre-conceived ideas to be confirm -- you will find them -- actually the Lord will give you false signs to multiply your heart idols.

I'm not saying your brother in law is in a better or worst place today; but I am not concern for him because what I can perceived he does seek to knows His voice and is open to it and is able to follow it. I'm sure he'll perceive it wrong(like any of us) at times because of heart idols. We all have those, and we all have to go thru the learning to hear better His voice and follow Him better. As we learn the real truth from HIM, that's when our heart idols cast down one by one.


Are you proposing that people should not listen or seek to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit? What I'm perceiving, this young man is in the right road in seeking to hear His voice.

Also, you're assuming that the SDA Church is the ONLY ROAD. This is the same mentality as the Catholic Church has. I believe Jesus said in the Bible He has many sheep in many folds(=denominations).


First, this is not MY METHOD, this is what the Bible teaches us repeated to us in so many different ways and places. We are to HEAR His voice, and follow it. We are to TEST ALL things with the HOLY SPIRIT at ALL time. We are not to follow PRIVATE INTERPRETATION (teachings of men). Thus the best advice we can give to anyone is to pray, meditate on any subject presented to you(chew the cud), and to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit(allowing Him to confirm(speak to you) what is truth and what is not).

Also, we are to encourage anyone to follow the path that the Holy Spirit cuts for them. Their path and your path are not the same. You need to realize that.


Yes! which the heart of men is led by heart idols(pre-conceived ideas, teachings of men).

Elle:

"1. You are assuming that "Sabbath truth" the way we(SDAs) understand it and present it is the TRUTH. As you know from other discussions (that is one of them that I need to return to) that my understanding is our(SDAs) understanding of the "Sabbath truth" is very superficial, lacking, and of the Judaisers type of mindset that Paul spent so much time to correct."

Are you saying that you don't believe the seventh day of the week is the Sabbath that God commanded us to "keep holy"?


Elle:

"Are you proposing that people should not listen or seek to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit? What I'm perceiving, this young man is in the right road in seeking to hear His voice."


Are you saying that signs leading someone to disobey the Ten Commandments can be the voice of the Holy Spirit?



Elle:

"Also, you're assuming that the SDA Church is the ONLY ROAD. This is the same mentality as the Catholic Church has. I believe Jesus said in the Bible He has many sheep in many folds(=denominations)."


I am assuming no such thing. God has children in many different churches, that is why they are being called to come out of Babylon. I am saying that regardless of what church you attend breaking any of God's Ten Commandments is a sin!



Elle:

"First, this is not MY METHOD, this is what the Bible teaches us repeated to us in so many different ways and places. We are to HEAR His voice, and follow it. We are to TEST ALL things with the HOLY SPIRIT at ALL time. We are not to follow PRIVATE INTERPRETATION (teachings of men). Thus the best advice we can give to anyone is to pray, meditate on any subject presented to you(chew the cud), and to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit(allowing Him to confirm(speak to you) what is truth and what is not)."


Your method of "following the leading of the Holy Spirit (allowing Him to confirm(speak to you) what is truth and what is not)," is precisely the sort of superstitious, subjective, divination that would lead a faithful young man to disobey a clear Commandment of God. I am beginning to understand how you arrived at your bizarre and extremely unbiblical view of scripture.



Elle:

"Also, we are to encourage anyone to follow the path that the Holy Spirit cuts for them. Their path and your path are not the same. You need to realize that."


There is only One path:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

No, nor I'm implying this. I was very specific in my answer to you I said "our(SDAs) understanding of the "Sabbath truth" is very superficial, lacking, and of the Judaisers type of mindset that Paul spent so much time to correct."

Are you saying that you have the complete whole truth about all what the Bible says about the Sabbath? I know you don't nor does our Church does. This has been discussed many times and I will further elaborate this in the appropriate discussion. Thus you are making an assumption that what you understand of the Sabbath is the TRUTH when in reality it is a superficial and small portion of the truth and lots of teachings of men.


You don't even understand the Sabbath Biblically. So maybe you are the one that is in disobedience to the 10Cs. How can you tell someone what is the voice of the Holy Spirit when you don't even have the full understanding of the 10Cs. If you do not have the correct or full understanding of one of the commandment -- you are not in harmony with the Lord will and guilty of breaking that law. And if you break one of the commandment you break them all.


Are you saying that anyone in other Churches is in sin?


If you call someone who encourage to test all things and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and try to hear His voice -- "superstitious", subjective, divination that would lead a faithful young man to disobey a clear Commandment of God. Than I respect your opinion, but to me I see something very wrong with your discernment and it doesn't make biblically any sense.

I believe in a God that is committed to communicate to each one of us personally(Rom 10:17). I believe in a Holy Spirit that teaches us all truth personally(1Jn 2:27). Because of this aspect of the Lord ways in communicating with us, we are to develop our ears to HEAR HIM. Receiving a certain confirmation after hearing His voice is part of the process to make sure that we have heard, is really His voice and not our own voice.

Personally, I trust in the Lord and His ability to lead us(including ProdigalSon) in all truth (AV 1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.)


I agree there is only one path which is Jesus, but it is only He who defines our walk personally.

All our walks are different and that's what I was referring to. We are not to define the walks of others -- Only the Lord has the right to do this, if we do this, we take His place.

We are to trust in Jesus and His ability to bring all of us to the truth. Our path life to get to that truth is all different, but yet it is the same -- we all need to go thru Passover (Righteousness by Faith), then Pentecost (learn to hear & obey His VOICE), then Tabernacle (trust in His Sovereignty and enter His rest while sharing His ministry to bring others into His rest).

Ell said:

"Are you saying that you have the complete whole truth about all what the Bible says about the Sabbath? I know you don't nor does our Church does. This has been discussed many times and I will further elaborate this in the appropriate discussion. Thus you are making an assumption that what you understand of the Sabbath is the TRUTH when in reality it is a superficial and small portion of the truth and lots of teachings of men. "


Here is what I know about the Sabbath Commandment:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11


I don't see any "teachings of men" here. Nothing added or taken away, no mention of new moons or feast days. In fact it looks pretty straight forward
and honest.

Wonderfully phrased to turn the sinner away from sin without putting any confusing, Babylonian, stumbling blocks in his or her way. It is a Light
shining in the darkness.

The Law of the Lord is perfect, showing the perfect character of the One
who wrote it in unchanging stone with His own finger!



Elle said:

"You don't even understand the Sabbath Biblically. So maybe you are the one that is in disobedience to the 10Cs. How can you tell someone what is the voice of the Holy Spirit when you don't even have the full understanding of the 10Cs. If you do not have the correct or full understanding of one of the commandment -- you are not in harmony with the Lord will and guilty of breaking that law. And if you break one of the commandment you break them all."


Let's look at the Fourth Commandment again:

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11

Doesn't seem to have changed since the last time I read it.

I will repeat the my previous question:

"Are you saying that signs leading someone to disobey the Ten Commandments can be the voice of the Holy Spirit?"

Most of us on this site know what sort of "spirit" leads people into sin.


Elle said:

"Are you saying that anyone in other Churches is in sin?"

I said: "God has children in many different churches, that is why they are being called to come out of Babylon. I am saying that regardless of what church you attend breaking any of God's Ten Commandments is a sin!"

I believe you said somewhere that english is not your mother tongue, so please read my previous comment carefully, you will see that I said: "...regardless of what church you attend breaking any of God's Ten Commandments is a sin!"

There are lots of people attending SDA churches every Sabbath who are Commandment breakers and "wolves in sheep's clothing"!


Elle said:

"If you call someone who encourage to test all things and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and try to hear His voice -- "superstitious", subjective, divination that would lead a faithful young man to disobey a clear Commandment of God. Than I respect your opinion, but to me I see something very wrong with your discernment and it doesn't make biblically any sense."


Your method of "testing all things" is in fact "superstitious, subjective, divination",
it will lead you wherever your deceived, willful, heart desires.

My "discernment" that "doesn't make biblically any sense" to you, tells me to read and believe the Word of God without adding or taking away.
My biblically based discernment tells me that the "spirit" that guides someone to break God's clear and simple Commandment, is Satan's!

What I have noticed is that those who read and know the Spirit of Prophecy preach with a understanding and authority which others lack. Many preachers and especially know a great number of Adventist preachers are preaching 'philosophy' or men's ideas rather than Gods truth, and the people hunger for truth and thirst for that which gives everlasting life and get empty ideas about mans knowledge and dry platitudes, or worse, subtle corruption.

The straight truth which comes from God is hidden from the people, and Spirit of Prophecy has that, and Satan brings whatever excuse to keep it away from our pulpits and is succeeding in many of our churches....very sad and disheartening.