Too true, Rick.

Also, as dedication said, the Spirit of Prophesy is being twisted to say things it simply does not intend.

I have been seeing more and more out of context Ellen White quotes on this site, being used as rhetorical ammunition in arguments over the minutest details of interpretation. While we debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, the weightier details of salvation, the Love of God, present Truth, and the Three Angel's Messages are neglected.

"Come let us reason together" without animosity. How empty is victory in debate when there is no spiritual fruit, only hurt feelings.


I believe each member of this forum should spend some time in daily prayer for the strength and unity of God's End Time Church.

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."
John 17:20-21


"...that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

When we squabble over pet theories and injured pride, souls are lost...

I wonder from where that came? Jesus gives a VERY different picture, warning against false prophets. He said, "Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He [a man, not a majestic being] is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He [a man, and not a majestic being] is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. FOR as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be."

It is evident (from the contrast in appearing pivoted by the word FOR) that ONLY Jesus Christ will be seen "in majestic appearance with his retinue of angels"; and no one else! Therefore, to paint Christ as Satan is to misrepresent the truth, prophesy falsely and lead others completely astray.

///

Christ's coming will be in the clouds of glory with all His angels, everyone will see Him, and ALL the dead in Christ will arise from their graves, and all the living in Christ, and the newly raised in Christ will all rise together to meet their Savior in the air, and go with Him to His Father's house. (Matt. 24:30-31; Rev. 1:7; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 14:2-3)


Satan and his retinue of masters will appear before that in majestic display on earth -- pretending to be Christ and a few raised dead people. They are exactly what Matthew 24 warned against, but few will believe that. They will think it is the real Christ. Indeed the false message that Christ with a few selected "leaders" raised in the first resurrection, will come and reign over the present world for 1000 years, is false prophesying and preparing people for the greatest deception yet to come.

By the way, you added to scripture in matt. 24:24-26. The pronoun, "HE' in that text, does not necessarily mean "a man, not a majestic being". The false Christ in those texts shows great signs and wonders.
Besides, Matt. 12:26, Luke 22:32 and other texts, use the pronoun "he" to refer to satan. The pronoun "he" in Matt. 24:26 is just a pronoun and can refer to ANY being pretending to be Christ.

Yes. I now see you are approaching it from first person. But I am looking at it from second person.

Of course, if you "feel" it comes from the Holy Spirit, that's one thing. You know the truth, whether you made it up or not. But what about onlookers? How do they determine the difference? How do they know if it's been revealed or manipulated? In other words, is it a true revealing or a fraud?

Green doesn't, never has, and never will. Please stop using this false example. It is slanderous libel. Pick something true or use something clearly metaphorical.

Thank you.

Green Cochoa.

??? "if you "feel" it comes from the Holy Spirit. ??? I'm not following you. Did I say that??? A second witness shouldn't be based on "if you feel it comes from the Holy Spirit". A second witness is based if the Holy Spirit gave you an explicit event or word that highly correlate with the first word you think came from the Holy Spirit. For sure at the beginning, you will get it wrong several times. However, this is normal in education and often we learn much more thru our errors.

Whoever hears a person testifying what he received a revelation or an interpretation or whatever from above, the onlooker have to test it by pondering of what was said and let the Holy Spirit confirm it to him personally what is true or not.


It would depend on your pre-revelation received from above and how far the Holy Spirit was successful in teaching-revealing you basic truth. If you are starting from zero either because you have just been converted or been in the Church for many years but never exercised testing things and just took whatever was taught without question -- then there's no way to know if the revelation is genuine or a fraud. However, it doesn't stop the Holy Spirit from communicating with anyone to their understanding level to let you know if the message is genuine or fraud. You may not understand it and it may take years before the Holy Spirit brings it back to mind in a time for you to understand it. When it is something that it is time for you to ponder on a certain truth that the Holy Spirit wants to teach you, all it requires is pondering time, prayers, and the Lord to open our ears.

If the Holy Spirit doesn't give the onlooker a second witness, then it's either one of these cases :

1- The revelation the person claim to have received, none of it came from the Holy Spirit.

2- Some part came from the Holy Spirit; but the person added parts to it because of his own heart idols that didn't come from the Holy Spirit. The onlooker reject the whole message because of that added part and stop pondering on the matter.

3- the onlooker might not have the necessary basic foundation to ponder on the subject very far. In such a case, time is necessary to get that necessary foundation; so that then he can understand the revelation spoken.

4- the onlooker have idols in his own heart that prevent him to ponder-study the matter objectively.

5- the onlooker don't have the experience how to hear the Holy Spirit and may of heard Him or simply missed the second witness.

Despite all of the above from 2 to 5 that is against a newbie in the walk to better hear, the Lord will meet us where we are and He did promised us that He will mature us to be excellent hearers because this is His way to bring us in His image. Without hearing His voice theirs no true obedience. Without hearing theirs no faith, and without faith there's no salvation and the recreation of our minds and hearts to His image.

What is important in all of this, is not to know everything or to discern everything that is true or false right away....but to enter this walk in learning to hear Him and follow His voice. That's the purpose of testing all things as Deut 13 says the purpose of it -- "is to prove YOU".

The word "He" in Matt. 24:24-26 refers to a man and not a majestic being. Jesus said so.


It is CLEARLY evident that "He" refers to a man (a false christ or false prophet) working miracles and not a majestic being. ONLY Christ will appear in heaven as a majestic being with His retinue of angels and no one else! Again I say to you: "Therefore, to paint Christ as Satan is to misrepresent the truth, prophesy falsely and lead others completely astray."

///

Let's see how this "witness" theory works.

Lucifer, an exalted angel decides he is going to take God's place.
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

His schemes failed in heaven for he was cast out of heaven.

Jesus said: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven." Luke 10:18 And "Satan, which deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." Rev. 12:9

So now this fallen angel(called Lucifer, satan, dragon, etc) seeks to divert human being's worship and homage which rightly is due God, to himself.

Prophecy tells us
Rev. 13:3 -4 all the world wondered after the beast.
And they worshipped the dragon (that great dragon which was was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan) which gave power unto the beast. (Rev. 13:4; 12:9)


How can he deceive the whole world into worshipping him, instead of Christ?

Just get all the witnesses to promote it !!!

Send out the "age to come" witnesses.
Joseph Marsh, though not the first to voice these belief, in 1865 started what was knows as "the age to come" movement which believed "the end" wasn't an end of the world but simply the end of an age, a new age was about to begin. There wasn't going to be a "meeting Christ in the air" or a "going with Him to his Father's house". Christ would return to earth and restored it back to it's original Eden-glory and thus make "earth heavenly".

The "Age to Come" movement were a branch from the Millerite movement of 1844. They held some doctrines the same as another branch from the Millerite Movement (Seventh-day Adventists) soul sleep at death, no ever burning hell, but deviated widely on other doctrines.

The ideas of the "Age to Come" didn't start with Marsh, but his "Advent movement" brought it into sharp contrast with the Seventh-day Adventist Movement.

More witnesses --
Pre-millennialism says that Christ will return before the Millennium.
Seventh-day Adventists agree. Oh, wait, most pre-millennialists bear witness that when Christ returns He will reign on earth, there is no living in heaven for 1000 years.

Once again these witnesses come close to Seventh-day Adventism but veer sharply away on this one key issue!

What about the Catholic witness -- they don't believe in a millennium-- they are a-millenniums. They believe satan was bound at Christ's death, and near the end of time he is released for 100 years when the world plunges into wickedness. Then after the chastisement comes the "age of peace", when truth emerges victorious, and Christ appears.

Though different from the "age to come" Millerites -- in the end result it's the same -- the coming of an age here on earth when things will be restored and Christ will be present.

There are quite a number of witnesses clearing the way for a "Christ", in human majestic form to appear as bringing in the new age that "is to come" to this sin wracked planet. If we depend on a certain number of witnesses -- the ultimate false "Christ" has covered his bases.


GOD'S WITNESSES

Should we quote EGW? Yes, -- a resounding yes!

She had quite a bit to say about the above witnesses promoting the "age to come" when Christ supposedly rules here in our present world (changing and restoring things).

In August, 1858, we attended a conference at Crane's Grove, Ills. This was a meeting of considerable interest. It was immediately followed by a discussion of the Sabbath question between Elders J. H. Waggoner and J. M. Stephenson. Eld. S. was on the ground before our conference closed, and immediately commenced his lawless interruptions of our meeting, such as are very common with the no-Sabbath, age-to-come men. {2SG 273.1}

At the time of the Crane's Grove, (Ills.), conference and discussion several of the [u]age-to-come, no-Sabbath preachers designed to bring out before the public some of the reports in circulation. But when they learned that we were prepared for them,... they had concluded to do nothing about it! {2SG 295.1}
[/u]

I was then shown the case of Stephenson and Hall of Wisconsin; that they were convicted while we were at Wisconsin in June, 1854, that the visions were of God; but they examined them and compared them with the Age to Come, and because the visions did not agree with their views of the Age to Come, they sacrificed the visions for the Age to Come. And while on their journey East, last spring, they were both wrong and designing. They have stumbled over the Age to Come, and they are ready to take any course to injure the Review, and its friends must be awake and do what they can to save the children of God from deception. They are uniting with a lying and corrupt people. They have had evidence of this; and while they were professing sympathy and union with my husband, they (especially Stephenson) were biting like an adder behind his back. ...Their object has been to have the Review publish the Age to Come, or destroy its influence. {4bSG 4.1}also {1T 116.2}

"They are seeking to unite their erroneous views and past experience with the message of the third angel. They cannot do this. There is no concord between Christ and Belial. ...Their peculiar views of the age to come, are gross errors. Satan has worked them in among the last-day heresies to serve his own purpose to ruin souls. These errors can have no harmony with the message of heavenly origin. {4bSG 152.3}

" Brother J was presented before me, and I was shown that his course has not been pleasing to God. He was unstable. He has been befogged with the Age-to-Come, and as there is
not the least harmony between the Age-to-Come theory and the third angel's message, he lost his love for and faith in the message, {1T 333}

" I have been shown that you were cherishing erroneous views in regard to the future, views savoring of the pernicious sentiments of the Age-to-come. You sometimes talk out these ideas to others. But they are not in harmony with the body.
You do not make a right application of Scripture. When Jesus rises up in the most holy place, and lays off His mediatorial garments, and clothes Himself with the garments of vengeance in place of the priestly attire, the work for sinners will be done. The period of time will then have come when the mandate will go forth: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: . . . and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." {2T 690.3}

Brother Josiah Hart... got a substitute, "the age to come," and was carrying that about. Such confusion and distraction has followed the time, and fighting against the visions! {3MR 243.2}



CONCLUSIONS

Two paths diverge each with its witnesses after the Great Disappointment of 1844.

Both were strong Millerites, believing Christ would return October 1844, but after the disappointment they parted:

"Age to Come" group questioned the whole concept of Christ's second coming and came up with a different second coming, one that was more in line (though different in details concerning the placement of the millennium) as the Catholic position; while Seventh-day Adventists held to the "end of probation" "end of human life on planet earth" type of second coming. They realized the time prophecies did not point to the second coming but to the "cleansing of the sanctuary" in preparation to the second coming.

"Age to Come" and Sabbath keeping Adventists in the years immediately following 1844, were still in close connection immediately after 1844 -- they had things in common BUT --
The key dividing point was the belief in an earthly reign of Christ for 1000 years.
This led to the rejection of the messages given Ellen White.

The battle is not new --
To accept the message (which has many human witnesses) that the world will not end "at the end" but Christ will appear and rule over the earth, gradually restoring it to Eden type glory, MEANS rejecting Ellen White as witness for God, and rejecting the third angel's message.

Just remember --
the Christ that will appear ON EARTH, looking like the glorified "man" Jesus Christ, will be an imposter.
He will do a lot of wonderful signs and miracles, and people will be deceived.

Prophecy tells us
Rev. 13:3 -4 all the world wondered after the beast (earthly false Christian worship System).
And they worshipped the dragon (that great dragon which was was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan) which gave power unto the beast (the false religious system. (Rev. 13:4; 12:9)

They will think it is Christ.

Dedication who are you responding to? Me or James?

If James, you didn't even address his post above.

If me, well I have no clue what post are you responding to?

You are not even addressing the subject at hand.

If you want to discuss about the coming Millenium, then there's already appropriate discussion for that. I can respond to your post in the appropriate discussion, but not here.

I most certainly did address the subject at hand. Which is accepting EGW's witness on these matters or other witnesses who lead to the false Christ who James is trying (totally unsuccessfully ) to say could not be Satan himself personating Christ.

I showed the line of thinking (a line whose general premise you subscribe to) that caused considerable confusion in the early Advent movement and results in rejecting the third angels message and the inspired witness of EGW.

There is no way the two are compatible.
Which line of witnesses will one follow?