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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #177840
11/07/15 08:01 PM
11/07/15 08:01 PM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
"The dragon had given to the beast "his power, and his seat and great authority".
Does paganism give Catholicism power seat and great authority?"

Kland, I think that you have answered your own question. The dragon in the Chap. 16 could not be the Satan, the Devil, because he is not “the one of the spirits of devils”. The book of Revelation is not decoding words for interpretation. So we must read within the context. For example, the word ‘crown’ is mentioned 11 times in the book of Revelation. Jesus has crown, 24 elders has crown, beast has crown so on.

The dragon of the three unclean spirits is "the one of the spirits of devils"(Rev. 16:14). In retrospect why would God punish only the Dragon when the others of the unclean spirits also gathered the entire world for the battle of Armageddon?

Rev. 20:1-2 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"
Rev. 20:3 "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

We are told that the dragon of the Chap. 16 is the one of the spirits of devils. The threefold union of the unclean spirits gathers the whole world to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Rev. 16:16 says, they “gathered them together into” a situation of Armageddon.

Inevitably they are fallen by their own "working miracles" to unite the whole world. Rev. 18:2 “… Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils (paganism), and the hold of every foul spirits (Catholicism) and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (apostate Protestantism).”

What is the purpose that they must unite? Their superficial agenda is for the world peace but that's only a cover-up. Their true agenda is to destroy God's people.

Dan. 8:25 " And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

So God announced their punishment in the sixth trumpet to the unclean spirits of devil. Rev. 9:17 “And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.”
Rev. 9:18 “By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. “

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #177931
11/10/15 09:00 PM
11/10/15 09:00 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
The dragon of the three unclean spirits is "the one of the spirits of devils"(Rev. 16:14). In retrospect why would God punish only the Dragon when the others of the unclean spirits also gathered the entire world for the battle of Armageddon?

Why? Because satan is the persecutor of God's people.

I'm not sure you are understanding what I mean by

The unclean spirits come out of the mouth of the dragon, beast, and false prophet.

If something comes out of the mouth of the dragon, it cannot be the dragon.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #177932
11/10/15 09:09 PM
11/10/15 09:09 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Quote:
Rev. 20:1-2 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"

Why do you not see that as saying the dragon IS "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan"?

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland] #177968
11/11/15 10:45 PM
11/11/15 10:45 PM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Rev. 20:1-2 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"

Why do you not see that as saying the dragon IS "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan"?


Are we in the same page regarding the dragon of the chapter 16? We must read within the context first.

We are told that the dragon of the three unclean spirits has issues with his mouth the same way as the other two unclean spirits. The three unclean spirits "talk" or "speak" directly to people to deceive by their mouth. They "go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world (Rev. 16:14)" to persuade them to their false doctrines by "working miracles".

Rev. 16:13 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

This dragon in chap. 16:13 is paganism, which is primarily the Buddhist of the orient. What a miracle that they unite with influence of the beast and the false prophet for the battle of Armageddon. Verse 14 says, "they are the spirits of devils" of the real Dragon, which is the Satan, the Devil.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #178123
11/16/15 02:51 AM
11/16/15 02:51 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
I have found a few inquiry on the subject of the seven trumpets to the White Estate from the link; www.drcwhiteestate.org

Please go to search engine and type ‘seven trumpets’.
I have copied it and pasted some below;

RE: 7 Trumpets of Revelation
Dear Brother Fagal, I am a pastor in the Greater NY Conference. I am doing an in depth study of the 7 Trumpets of Revelation. …
… speaking about the sixth trumpet she says, "at the very time specified, Turkey, through her ambassadors, accepted the protection of the allied powers of Europe, and thus placed herself under the control of Christian nations. This event exactly fulfilled the prediction" (GC 335). [Uriah Smith says it too.] Mrs. White was convinced that August 11, 1840 brought "an exact fulfillment" to the sixth trumpet. Nevertheless, the clear facts of history and Scripture do not support this claim:

1. According to history, the Turkish empire did not fall on August 11, 1840 as the Millerites claimed. In fact, from 1783 to 1914, the boundaries of the Ottoman empire were reduced by a series of defeats. The war waged against the Sultan of Turkey in 1840 ended in 1841 without significant change. Today, the August 11, 1840 date set by the Millerites is not regarded by historians as an important date in Turkish history. In World War I, Turkey allied with Germany and lost even more territory. In 1923, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey proclaimed Turkey to be a republic and Turkey remains a sovereign nation to this day.

2. The August 11, 1840 date is reached through a faulty King James translation of Scripture that says: "And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men" Rev 9:15. Dr. Josiah Litch, the man that first concluded that the sixth trumpet must occur on the August 11, 1840 date, applied the day/year principle to this verse and derived 391 years and 15 days out of the hour, day, month and year mentioned. However, the King James translation of this verse is incorrect! The translation should read: "And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind." Greek scholars around the world widely agree that the syntax of Revelation 9:15 points to a specific point in time and is therefore punctiliar, and not the sum of chronological units of time.

3. Dr. Litch failed to adjust his 391 year, 15 day prophecy with the change of the calendar in October, 1582, when ten days were dropped from the calendar to correct for errors in the Julian calendar. Thus the August 11, 1840 date should be August 21 1840. And nothing of historical consequence occurred on that date. CONCLUSION: Her original statement was time sensitive. E.G. White was not infallible, only God is. She was given no vision about the trumpets. Therefore she was accepting the stated interpretation given in her day considering that the Millerites believed that Christ was coming in 1844, the Trumpets had to be fulfilled in the past rather than something to look for in the future because the Millerites believed Christ was coming in 1844. Uriah Smith later fleshed out this interpretation after the disappointment. This interpretation has persisted to the present day. My problem is that I don't find this interpretation plausible. I see the Trumpets as having an end time fulfillment because typically the feast was a 7th month phenomenom as the Day of Atonement. Adventist have always connected the investigative judgment and the work of our High Priest from 1844 with Day of Atonement, thus having an end time fulfillment. Why not the Trumpets seeing that they announce to world that our High Priest is going to be leaving the sanctuary and probation will close just as it was in the typical service and economy. It is only logical to see these events tied together as God originally intended. Therefore I believe that the 7 Trumpets are still future perhaps on the verge of sounding. What do you think? Thank you for any input. God Bless, Pastor _____

Dear William,
Thank you for your prompt reply. I am not convinced that Rev. chapter 8 & 9 refer to the fall of Ottoman Empire. How did Josiah Litch can come to the conclusion that the 7 trumpets refer to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Can you read through these chapters ? Can you provide me Josiah's papers on this subject ?
The first angel sounded chap.8 verse 7 - the one third of trees burnt up and all green grass burnt up. This is the impact due to the sounding of the first trumpet. The words are plain English. How can Josiah infer from this pain english that it refer to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. It was just coincident that he predicted correctly the fall of Ottoman Empire but it should not refer to the trumpets. If you were read through chapters 8 and 9. The verses do not refer to history. It predict the coming plagues:

1. First trumpet - 1/3 trees & grass burnt
2. Second trumpet - 1/3 sea became blood
3. Third trumpet - 1/3 water became poisoned, many men died
4. Fourth trumpet - 1/3 moon,sun, stars - darkened
5. Fifth trumpet - Men who do not have the seal of God - tormented - in those days men seek death and shall not find it ( it refer to men - real people , not about the Turks or Ottoman Empire) this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.
6. Sixth Trumpet - 1/3 of men killed by the 3 plagues - these also are plain english, not about history or the Turks or Ottoman Empire.
7. Seventh Trumpet -Chap 11: 15 - Close of probation.

These 7 trumpets are all - PLAGUES !!!!! They are very similar to all the 7 last plagues which are universally believed by all Adventist.
Please through many times the book of Revelation Chapters 8,9 and you may understand what I am trying to say.
Mrs White had never made statement about the 7 trumpets prophecy. So it makes me suspicious that just because of Josiah prediction about the Turks was correction does not mean that the Rev chapter 8 & 9 are actually prophecing about the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The words in Rev chap 8 & 9 do not allow such gross misinterpretation by Josiah Litch.
I, also, do not agree with Uriah Smith and SDA Bible Commentary on their views on the 7 trumpets. How can they so easily come to such conclusion that the trumpets refer to History.
Please read : Rev. 9 : 5, 6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it and shall desire to die and death shall flee from them. This cannot be about history. When was it recorded during the fall of the Ottoman Empire that people in those days would seek death and desire to die ?
Rev 8: 13 - Woe to the inhabitants of the world - meaning in the very near future God people will warn the world of the trumpet plagues. When did the Turks or whoever had proclaim to the inhabitants of the world ?
Rev 9 : 20 , 21- And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils and idols of gold and silver and brass and stone and wood which neither can see nor hear nor walk.
These words are plain english - no doubt - how can we twist it and say that it is history- all those inaccurate statements by Josiah, Uriah or the Bible Commentary.
I may not be a Theologian, and I don't have too. When we interprete, we have to let the Bible speaks for itself and in plain english.
I am absolutely certain that these 7 trumpets plagues are coming. Its purpose to warn and awaken the world to accept the Gospel and to worship the true God or be judged and suffer the 7 trumpets plagues.
I want to thank you for reading my mail. Maybe you may share my thoughts with your friends. But please read through Rev 8 & 9 many times as I have read through 100 of times and come to the conclusion that they are plagues -for sure.
Awaiting your input, thanks
Best Regards
Brother in Christ

I have also read up on the "Z" file of the White Estate from the link, which uploaded now on the White Estate Digital Resource Center. http://www.centerforadventistresearch.org
I found an interesting documents on "A Desire to Correct Denominational Books". Obviously there were some attempts, especially in the relation of Revelation 9 to Josiah Litch's prediction.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #178383
11/22/15 09:46 PM
11/22/15 09:46 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,121
Nova Scotia, Canada
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
I have found a few inquiry on the subject of the seven trumpets to the White Estate from the link; www.drcwhiteestate.org

The link doesn't work.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Daryl] #178390
11/23/15 12:43 AM
11/23/15 12:43 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
I have found a few inquiry on the subject of the seven trumpets to the White Estate from the link; www.drcwhiteestate.org

The link doesn't work.


please try this;

www.drc.whiteestate.org

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #178391
11/23/15 12:47 AM
11/23/15 12:47 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Please try to link this first;

http://www.centerforadventistresearch.org

then click this;

White Estate Digital Resource Center

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #178396
11/23/15 02:02 AM
11/23/15 02:02 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Seven Trumpets are all about coming Seven Plagues!!

The four angels in Chap. 7 were holding the four corners of the earth to prevent 'hurting' the earth, the sea, or trees while the sealing of God are going on.

At the time of the completion of the sealing, the four angels are commanded to loose their hold (Rev. 9:14).

When the four angels are loose their hold, the 'hurting' of the earth, the sea and trees would be evident.

Notice the first trumpet announcing ‘the coming hurt’ of the trees and grass that are burnt up. The trees and the green grass depict mankind on earth, which mean 1/3 of the mankind would be ‘hurt’. We have not seen two billions of mankind have been hurt yet. Have we? Thus the first trumpet is the future event of the first plague.

Similarly the second trumpet turned one third of the sea to blood. Is this also deadly news of announcement on the coming plague? This would be happening unavoidably that is like ‘great mountain burning with fire’ which was casted into the sea. That is why the second plague describes like “sea became as the blood of a dead man”.

The third trumpet talks about 1/3 of water became poisoned and many men died from it. Indeed, the third plague describes the water turned to blood.

The fourth trumpet has announced that the heavenly bodies have turned partially into darkness. This means that the sun, the moon, and the stars are showing the signs of the time. The weathers are the indicators that the celestial bodies are showing weird signs. Thus the sun scorching men with fire on the fourth plague fits like puzzle pieces with the fourth trumpet.

Men who have the seal of God would not be tormented and not do desire to die while the fifth trumpet is sounding. Only those who do not have the seal of God shall desire to die but shall not find it. Who is causing men not to receive the seal of God? The instigator is revealed or exposed in the Rev. 13 and even more enlarged their identity in Rev. 17-18. I would say that this beast deserves plague, don’t you? So God said that He would pour out His wrath on the seat of the beast.

At the sixth trumpet, the four angels are loosed at the command of God from the temple, instantaneously or at the point of the time. We are told that at the sixth trumpet sound that the 1/3 of inhabiters of the earth is killed by the three plagues. Have we seen this happened yet? If not, this is still the future event, which is the sixth plague. The three unclean spirits would receive these plagues.

The seventh trumpet is announcing the coming kingdom of Christ. So the seventh plague said, ‘It is done.” No more solemn warnings will be heard after this. The Probation closed.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #178440
11/24/15 04:28 PM
11/24/15 04:28 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
Rev. 20:1-2 "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years"

Why do you not see that as saying the dragon IS "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan"?


Are we in the same page regarding the dragon of the chapter 16? We must read within the context first.

We are told that the dragon of the three unclean spirits has issues with his mouth the same way as the other two unclean spirits. The three unclean spirits "talk" or "speak" directly to people to deceive by their mouth. They "go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world (Rev. 16:14)" to persuade them to their false doctrines by "working miracles".

Rev. 16:13 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

This dragon in chap. 16:13 is paganism, which is primarily the Buddhist of the orient. What a miracle that they unite with influence of the beast and the false prophet for the battle of Armageddon. Verse 14 says, "they are the spirits of devils" of the real Dragon, which is the Satan, the Devil.

So are you saying there are two dragons, one dragon comes out of the mouth of the other dragon?

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