Well Alchemy, Kland, and ProdigalOne you have just failed the Lord’s Deut 13 test by choosing to believe a shaken-&-remnant definition & way that is opposite to the Lord’s definition & way that He has shown 4 times in history.

#1. At the judment of the corrupt nation-Church of Israel at the Assyrian captivity saving only a remnant that came out of the land of Israel,

#2. At the judgment of the corrupt nation-Church of Judah at the Babylonian captivity having only a remnant spared and brought into captivity

#3 At the judgment of the Babylonian Empire, where only a remnant came out of their Church to return to Jerusalem;

#4. After Jesus death having only a remnant coming out of Judaism corrupt Church

All these 4 historical example, we have a repeated theme : a)their Church were corrupt and b)a remnant came out of it.

Now you believe in a shaken-&-remnant definition that He has never shown to us in the past. And you have chosen to go after another way that we have not known in the past; thus it is not the Lord’s == thus is another gods way.

Be careful – for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

AV Dt 13: 1 . If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Also our shaken-&-remnant definition goes against John’s revelation about the Laodicean Church who is the last Church in World history who is corrupt also and who comes before the Lord’s Pure-Perfect-Priesthood-Bride Church who is the remnant that came out of ____________ -- this remnant pure Church will rule with Christ during the Millennium.

We SDA correctly recognize that we currently are that Laodicean Church. Well I personally believe that all denominations form this Laodicean Church as Jesus said His sheep are in many folds; nevertheless the Bible is clear this last Church is far from being perfect just like the #1, #2, #3, and #4 churches were found corrupt in past before Jesus death. Actually perhaps this Laodicean Church is in worst shape than any other Churches in history. Jesus told us AV Re 3:16 “I will spue thee out of my mouth 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Elle, could you clearly say, first, what it is that you think I failed at, and second, how so?

It sounds like you do believe in a remnant: "who comes before the Lord’s Pure-Perfect-Priesthood-Bride Church who is the remnant that came out of ____________ "

This post comes from Adventist brought front and center discussion. Since there were so many response to it and potentially hi-jack the discussion, I decided to copy the post here where it belong. I will address the reply of the post here.

I didn't change the content of my original post but just went over to improve the clarity of it.

================ the revised version of Post #179949


You mis-understood. We were talking (here) about the Jesuit infiltration and Jim Arrabitos documentary and the Campmeeting photos of 1888 with 6 men surrounding Ellen White doing the Mason hidden hand sign -- thus in reference to all those events I was seeing that it wasn't so far-fetch (or unreasonable) for those to not trust Ellen White writing beyond James White death. I wasn't referring about me, I was only referring to those I have known in past years that told me not to trust any writing (or try to detect which did come from her pen from the writing that didn't) beyond that date.


I believe we need to test all things. I believe that some writings of Ellen White are inspired before or after 1888 -- however all needs to be tested.

I was only saying what the whole sentence said. I wasn't at all implying or saying what you said above.

Whatever Ellen white's counsel or laws (whatever term you want to refer them) -- if they don't match to the Lord's counsel or laws -- then it is between you and the Lord to determine what to do with it.

Me, all I'm saying we are to test all things like the Lord, Ellen White and James have told us to do.

When I do a study, I always use the Bible as my source book as I believe Ellen White and James told us to do. If you come to me and say -- well this or that is not in line with Ellen White...but I say to you, well I have this Bible text and that Bible text as my source.....

Then I think you should :

#1. of checked the accuracy of my Biblical source before hand and not bring forth to me any Ellen White quotes.

-1a) suppose my interpretation or application of the scripture does NOT align with scripture (suppose I added something, or I misapplied the text, or misunderstood it, or didn't acknowledge another scripture referring to the same matter). You need to address my erronous scripture application.

-1b) suppose my scripture application DOES align with scriptures but you have other scriptures that aligns with what Ellen White says? Then we discuss these scriptures that might seem to be in contradiction and try to reconcile all scriptures.

-1c)suppose my scripture application DOES align with scriptures but you have NO scriptures to back Ellen's saying? What do you do then? You need to go to the Lord -- not argue with me, nor blame Ellen White, nor blame the Church.

Does that make sense?

To me, I see a purpose for all things especially the reason the Lord wants us to test all things and sending us prophets to prove us. Read, meditate on Deut 13:1-5. The termed used in Deut 13 is Prophet -- NOT false prophet.

Ellen White is NOT a false Prophet to me. Even if there's some portion of her writings that has been tampered with by the Jesuit infiltration, or if she spoke with a lack of understanding, or she spoke a personal interpretation that wasn't in line with the Lord, or she perceived she heard the voice of the Lord but in reality it was her own --- whatever reason may be --- she's still a prophet to my eyes.

I don't believe that any prophets were born prophets that didn't have to grow and weren't without error. What made the cannon in scriptures is 99% without error, but all other words the prophet have spoken -- these are not in the Bible. So these prophets had to grow into their calling and their past mistakes does not make them any less of a prophet.

It it us that do them wrong by neglecting our Deut 13 duty that the Lord told us to do always. We are to never assume that whatever they say is error free. It is our mistakes if we do not test them like told -- our sins -- not theirs.

We need to understand and know that prophets needs to grow. The prophets in training (which is a lifetime training like our own training are) needs to also learn to hear correctly the voice of the Lord and differentiate it from their own. They need to learn to put their heart idols aside like any other brothers and sisters have to learn also. They do not understand all things like any of us. They weren't reveal all things. Most of the cases they are not even given an interpretation of their dreams or visions. And most of the fulfillment of what dream or Words given is only fulfilled in many generations down the road. Most don't see the day that the Word given to them are fulfilled. They can fall into doubt. They can try to interpret or re-interpret what they think the vision, dream or Word means and they can not have it all right. But all of those reason may not mean that the dream or vision or word they heard initially wasn't from the Lord! Often time, it is what they added to it that wasn't His. However that doesn't makes them less of a prophet because they had to grow, they did some mistakes, the interpretation wasn't given to them, or the fulfillment didn't come in their time.

Most people are too quick with their casting stones at them without understanding lifetime personal growth, and what the Lord meant in Deut 13. That's why many prophets died in the OT. Deut 13 is a warning to you (not to the prophets) to always test what a prophet tells you no matter the circumstances.

All those reasons above is why the Lord tells us to always test them and never assume that there's any point that it's ok to not test them. Even if in the time of the past, whatever they said came true. That's not a good enough reason to not test them in the future or whatever they say as said in Deut 13.

Even the pure Word of God (the Bible) needs to be tested at all time -- if you know what I mean with that.

Do you believe that prophets are born prophets? That everything that comes out of their mouth is always the Word of God????

Where in the Bible it tells us this? I never seen any text that alludes to this. However, there's plenty of stories in the Bible that shows that Abram, Jacob, Moses, and etc... had to grow into their calling.


Where do you get that notion?



1. Notice that neither in Deut 13 and 18 the Lord calls them false prophets. They are call prophet.

2. Deut 13:3 the Lord takes credit for sending the prophet to prove YOU.

3. No where do we see in the Bible where the Lord has apply this law in executing to death any [false] prophet. NO WHERE. If you know of a court case in the Bible where the Lord has judge a [false] prophet to death, do let me know. The fact that there's no case, says a lot. It says He does not apply this law like you want to apply it.

One thing the Bible is very clear is there are plenty of case history where people like yourself has killed the prophets of the Lord. Jesus reproved many times the Jews and their fathers for doing so. But no where does Jesus reprove for not stoning the [false] prophets. Go figure!

4. Did you know that we are all [false] prophets? We all speak as if what we say is the truth --- and often it is not what our forefathers has known -- meaning we preach things that the Lord has not taught us or are not in Moses laws.

5. Did you know that we all speak presumptuously probably every day. We all say things that didn't come from the Lord's Spirit. This is speaking presumptuously by definition.

6. If the Lord meant that we are to stone LITERALLY every [false] prophets -- there wouldn't be any people around left alive. These laws are to be apply to us personally.

7. The false prophet is the voice in your head that tells you to follow strange gods, that tells you to say things that the Spirit of the Lord never told you to repeat. It is that voice in your head who is the [false] prophet that you need to stone daily. Not your brothers and sisters.


According to your interpretation of the Law -- not the Lord's interpretation -- for there's not even one case where He told anyone to stone literally a [false] prophet in the Bible -- not once.


That's your private interpretation! You should ask the Lord what is His interpretation of Deut 13 and 18.

I really don't know what to say to you, Elle. The Word of God is quite clear.

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die." Deuteronomy 18:20


It is a non sequitur to claim that since there is no example of a dishonest prophet suffering the penalty for breaking the law that the law does not exist. Your arguement makes no sense. A law does not need to be broken in order to be a law. If the speed limit in a school zone is 30 kph, it does not matter if no one in all of history has been punished with a speeding ticket for driving through it at 50 kph. 30 kph is till the law!




"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die." Deuteronomy 18:20

Whether the specific term "false prophet" is used or not is semantic obfuscation. Claiming to speak a word in God's name, which He has not commanded is prophesying falsely; therefore, the speaker is a "false prophet".



Romans 12 tells us that not everyone is a prophet : "the voice in your head" does not qualify you as a Prophet.



God's interpretation of Deuteronomy 13 and 20 seems perfectly clear.
He means just what He says!

And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God
Deuteronomy 13:5

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deuteronomy 18:20

When Balam was on his way to curse Israel, contrary to God's will, what do you suppose the angel with his sword drawn would have done if he had not stopped?

Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Numbers 22:31



Elle said:
"One thing the Bible is very clear is there are plenty of case history where people like yourself has killed the prophets of the Lord."

The "prophets of the Lord" the Bible was referring to we're NOT false prophets. The people had no right to kill them.

By the way, thank-you for comparing me to godless, murdering, hypocrites. It's always nice to have a fan!

In my experience, people resort to Ad Hominem attacks when they are unable to logically defend their positions.

Read your Bible again. You are not speaking the truth. Ignorance may be your excuse, but how confident you seem to be!

More than once a false or disobedient prophet died for it. I know you'll want some examples, so here are two:

1) Unnamed prophet of God, deceived by a false prophet to disobey God, killed by lion in miraculous manner; 1 Kings 13

2) Hananiah the son of Azur the prophet, died for falsely prophesying against Jeremiah's God-given prophecy; Jeremiah 28

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Elle said:

"Do you believe that prophets are born prophets? That everything that comes out of their mouth is always the Word of God????"

"Where in the Bible it tells us this? I never seen any text that alludes to this. However, there's plenty of stories in the Bible that shows that Abram, Jacob, Moses, and etc... had to grow into their calling."


I believe that prophesy is a gift of the Holy Spirit granted to some, see Romans 12:6

Only what God has "commanded him to speak" is "always the Word of God".

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die." Deuteronomy 18:20


Abram, Jacob, and Moses were imperfect humans just like the rest of us. They had to allow God to perfect their characters as we all need to do.

When they spoke a word in God's name, which He commanded them to speak, only then were they exercising the gift of Prophesy.

This does NOT mean "that everything that comes out of their mouth is always the Word of God????"

If someone has the gift of Tongues, does that mean that every word they speak is in Tongues? Of course not! Similarly, every word spoken by a Prophet is not prophesy.

The grace of God is manifest in His use of imperfect humanity to accomplish His perfect will. If you believe that a prophet must become perfect in all his ways, before his prophetic Word is dependable, then you doubt the power of the Almighty One!



"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die." Deuteronomy 18:20

Is ignorance your excuse? or is it something else?


I didn't remember this story for it was so strange. Now I think this is a great story that seem to support what I understand of Deut 13 -- to test all prophet. Anyway, I will be pondering and looking at this more closely. Tx.

Anyway in term of your claim -- there you go again Green saying things that the Bible doesn't say.

That Prophet #1(prophet from Judah) that died was not a false prophet. It was Prophet #2 that was by deceiving him by saying that he receive word from the Lord that he could eat and drink with him. If someone should of died for being a false prophet -- don't you think it was Prophet #2, the deceiver, who tricked Prophet #1 with a lie to disobey the Word of the Lord?

This story does not say that Prophet #1 died because he was a false prophet but because he disobeyed the Lord's word to him. There's a difference there, don't you think?


Still adding to scriptures Green?

Hananiah's death was not because he prophecied falsely, but because he "taught rebellion" Jer 28:16. Read what scriptures actually says before posting something. Ok! If you don't, you should know by now that I will check it; then it leads to some embarasement.



Not that any of those stories were even close to show these prophets died because of falsely prophecying. Do noticed, that I said no-one was Stoned according to the judgment of Deut 13 & 18. No where in the Bible the Lord via the people or any case that I know of where a prophet was executed by some sort of stoning.


There's two other stories below that came to my mind :

a) Balaam was killed in war(? my memory correct) Balaam was killed not because he falsely prophecied but because he wanted to curse Israel and ask permission from the Lord to prophecies a curse on Israel probably to receive money from the King. The Lord said NO. Despite he found another way to curse Israel, not by prophecizing but by counseling the King to bring Israel into immorality by worshiping Baal of Peor. <-- This word is important to understand and I have brought it up int the other discussion "Power of Words -- Why definition matter" I hate to say this, but you are guilty of worshiping Baal of Peor like I have been in the past. Maybe we can study this word after we are done with "ratsach".

b) the prophets of Baals were slain by the sword from Elijah. That's a different sentenced than stoning someone to death. The stoning to death was conducted by the congregation. I suppose after a proper court case in court where the individual was proven to be guilty. By two witnesses can someone can be sentenced to death. However, what Elijah did is something different. Elijah used the "sword". That symbolizes and means something different than the "stones".

You do the same mistake as the Jews did. They only saw the LETTER of the law. At least the Jews have more of a reason for this for they didn't have the revelation of Jesus Christ and the NT. But us with all what Paul has written, we do not have as much of a reason as they did to repeat this error.

Paul explained in so many different ways -- the LAW IS SPIRITUAL. They point of the fulfillment of greater thing to come -- in the spiritual realm. One day Jesus will fulfill this law in your heart and you will successfully stone the [false] prophet in you and put him to death.




[False] Prophets were and are very prominent. If the Lord really meant it to be a LITERAL fulfillment; there would be at least one case where He would of shown His intent; but the fact it was never shown -- tells us something else.

The story in 1Kg 13 is quite interesting showing us that the [false]Prophet was not stoned at all but the [true]Prophet was slain by a lion, not because he prophecied falsely, but because he didn't leave the town without eating and drinking after prophecising. I still don't know what the Lord wants us to understand there, but it has to do with Deut 13 & 18. But it is one place in the Bible the Lord shows that He did not execute a [false]prophet.


I don't believe so. The OT is a thicker compilation with many writers -- and not once the Lord ever call anyone a false prophet.

A prophet by definition is someone that speak under inspiration. That includes anyone. For sure not everyone is call to serve full time in the office as a prophet, but every believer in the body needs to learn to perceive the voice of the Lord and speak whenever the Lord moves them to speak. It can be a decision for the Church affairs. It could be to witness to a friend. It could be a revelation on some truth that needs to be share to the body....the Lord speak to each one of us continually and we are to learn to speak ONLY the word of the Lord and obey what He tells us.


That's right. We do not know all the cases for not many are reveal in scripture. For sure we can speculate from we know from other prophets that their message made the cannon. Here is what we know from others:a)most of them their prophesy didn't even get fulfilled right away, b)the people didn't understand what they were saying as some prophesy are very not clear, c)most people didn't understand the law so how could they know if the prophet spoke according to the law, etc... All of these are good reasons to pick up the stones and fulfill the LETTER of the Law right? How many times did they try to stone Jesus?

Since you uphold the LITERAL Law you show yourself to be in favor to pick up a stone and obey the Lord in stoning a [false]Prophet. The only reason why you cannot stone [false]prophets is because the Babylonian law prevents you. But shouldn't you be obeying the Lord's law instead of the Babylonian Law???? Why aren't you stoning the [false]Prophets?

What do you think the "gift of Prophesy" is? Do you think it is always a very clear strong audible voice? Not always. Actually, most of the time the Lord speaks in the "small still voice" that is hard to perceive. Then you wonder, was it my voice or was it the Lord.

Then why do you assume everything Ellen White wrote is the Word of God?


All I said is a prophet needs to grow within its calling. Nothing much of a statement. This is perfectly Biblical for we all know we ourselves have to grow into our own callings and that applies to prophets also. Prophets are not all of sudden a Prophet and speak without errors and never speak presumptuously at times. This is what you imagine it to be because that's basically what our Church implies in its teachings.

You do not want to obey the Lord in Deut 13 to test all what is said (by which EGW said to do this also). However you want to obey the stoning to death part of Deut 13 & Deut 18. That part you are in favor.