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Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: asygo] #179538
02/27/16 02:20 PM
02/27/16 02:20 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Originally Posted By: asygo
Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:13-14

Few find the way to life; many find the way to destruction.

Your last sentence-statement is your interpretation of the text. The "life" and "destruction" needs to be qualified and defined according to context and the grand plan of salvation. But before going there let's try to see what Jesus meant with the "narrow gate"


The Required Fruit to enter the Narrow Gate

The context of this verse is from v.12 to v.23 which Jesus teaches about what "men should do"(see v. 12) or in another word, the "fruits" that the Lord requires. The conclusive answer the Lord gave is in red & found in v. 23.

Mt 7:21 "“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness".

In Luke 13:23-28 also talks about the narrow gate but it is applied about how the people could avoid the coming judgment. This judgment had two application:

1)in their current situation of the coming judgment on the nation of Judah before its destruction in 70 -135 AD as Jesus' teachings was the last warning the Lord was giving to the people

2)the judgment that comes at Jesus 2nd coming when He'll be separating His sheep from the goats.

And do notice that both of these judgment are placed on BELIEVERS and not the unbelievers. Jesus is not making a distinction between the believers and the unbelievers here, but rather because of their disobedience and lawless practices -- the BELIEVERS do not pass thru this narrow gate.

This broader application of this narrow gate that Jesus is referring to is the first resurrection which is reserved for the believers that are qualified to be part of the Melchisedek Priesthood that will rule with Jesus during the Millennium and beyond.

Narrow Gate is the 1st Resurrections, the Broader road is the 2nd

The law in Num 10 suggests that there’s two resurrections with the Lord telling Moses to make two trumpets. The blowing of one trumpet summoned the priests and leaders (Num 10:4); whereas two trumpets blown summoned the whole congregation(Num 10:3).

Rev 20:4-6 speaks of the first resurrection “And I saw the thrones, and they that sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the soul of those who had been beheaded…who had not worshipped the beast…; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 This is the first resurrection. 6. Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first resurrection;….they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

To me this text is saying that only the priests who are called to “ reign with Christ for a thousand years” are raised at the first resurrection. That is probably why Paul in 1 Thes 4:16 quoted above has “trumpet” in the singular form which the angel will blow. One trumpet blown summoned only the leaders (Num 10:4).

Whereas in John 5:28 talks about the 2nd resurrection where “ ALL who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds…, those who commited the evil deeds…” Paul identifies those in 1st resurrection in 1 Thes 4:16 as “the dead in Christ” whereas in the 2nd is described as : a) “ ALL who are in the tombs” (John 5:28); b) “the dead, the great and the small”(Rev 20:12); c) “ both the righteous and the wicked” in Acts 24:15.

My understanding is the first resurrection is a "restrictive resurrection-gate" that summons only the Leaders. Only a few will pass that "narrow gate". The other believers will be summon with the unbelievers at the 2nd resurrection which is a "broader resurrection-gate".


Blessings
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Elle] #179539
02/27/16 11:05 PM
02/27/16 11:05 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle
My understanding is the first resurrection is a "restrictive resurrection-gate" that summons only the Leaders. Only a few will pass that "narrow gate". The other believers will be summon with the unbelievers at the 2nd resurrection which is a "broader resurrection-gate".

In your understanding is the "broader resurrection-gate" one that "leads to destruction"?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: asygo] #179540
02/28/16 01:07 AM
02/28/16 01:07 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Elle
My understanding is the first resurrection is a "restrictive resurrection-gate" that summons only the Leaders. Only a few will pass that "narrow gate". The other believers will be summon with the unbelievers at the 2nd resurrection which is a "broader resurrection-gate".

In your understanding is the "broader resurrection-gate" one that "leads to destruction"?


Yes -- "the soul that sinneth it shall die" Ezk 18:4

Notice in the above text it specifies that it is the SOUL that must die, not the body.

Have you sinned Asygo? I did many times and I still find myself still sinning today. I need to die. I believe we all have sinned -- we all have to die. Paul says he dies daily... What kind of death Paul is talking about? What kind of destruction do you think the Lord is talking about in Matthew 7?

AV Mt 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction[apoleia], and many there be which go in thereat:

apoleia "ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal)."

I believe Paul was talking about the second death, a spiritual death -- the death of the soul, the death of the old man that is nailed to the cross that dies with Jesus, the death that the baptism represents. I believe it is a spiritual destruction of the soul that Jesus is talking about.

Why do you assume that Jesus is talking about a physical destruction? Do you have Biblical support that Jesus was talking about a physical or eternal destruction? I have many other Biblical support that Jesus talks about a spiritual destruction of the soul at many other places.

Don't get me wrong, thru the course of time many have died a physical death via national judgments. The Judgments of the Lord is another discussion that is important to have and I believe it is in accordance to His laws of judgment given to Moses.

Without sidetracking, we all know that Jesus said that this physical death is only a sleep and all(well most) mankind will resurrect(@ the 2nd resurection) for the "eternal[olam, age abiding] judgment".

Then Paul quotes Isaiah 45 in these words "AV Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

hmmmm...... Could it be possible that the Lord is able to bring everyone to repentance at the great white throne? Could it be possible that the lake of fire is the SECOND DEATH -- a spiritual death? The same death that Paul was talking about and potentially the destruction Jesus was referring to?


Blessings
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Elle] #179541
02/28/16 01:31 AM
02/28/16 01:31 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
Could it be possible that the Lord is able to bring everyone to repentance at the great white throne?

Jesus spoke of the narrow way "which leads to life, and there are few who find it." If everyone eventually repents and receives life, in what way is that "few"? That would be "all."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #179543
02/28/16 05:14 AM
02/28/16 05:14 AM
dedication  Online Content
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QUOTE=Elle: "Notice in the above text it specifies that it is the SOUL that must die, not the body."
-----------


What is the soul?

The soul is the essence of the individual. People (and scripture also includes animals) have individuality, souls -- they think, reason, choose, have emotions, etc. They have character.

When a soul dies, the individual is no more.
Also a soul CANNOT live with out the body.
When the body dies, the soul is dead.

Now a body or object can live without a soul -- but it can't think, reason, choose, or have emotions -- it is a mere vegetable or plant. It has no character.


What does Paul mean when he says "I die daily"?
No, it does not mean the soul dies, or that the body dies daily. (That can't happen "daily" for once the body with the soul dies, it's dead) It's the CARNAL NATURE that must be denied on a daily bases. This involves a process of character transformation not character oblivion. The carnal "soul" is transformed into a "soul" that follows the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Dying to self means putting away our selfishness, -- again character transformation not character oblivion.



If, as you say, the second death is the death of the soul, that would mean God gathers the wicked nations of people before his white throne and kills their souls but leaves their bodies alive.

What is left?
A bunch of mindless bodies, robots, who bow mindlessly before His throne for eternity.

Is that what God wants?

I don't think so --
He wants a people who CHOOSE to love Him (with mind and emotions) and serve him as rational individuals.




Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Daryl] #179544
02/28/16 06:12 AM
02/28/16 06:12 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,430
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First death is the lot of all people --
we see the "first death" in action every time we go to a funeral.
People will be raised from the "first death".
It is our choice as to which resurrection --
Some to everlasting life (those who chose Christ and life)
Others to everlasting destruction (those who rejected Christ and choose death)

The second death is the eternal death.
They have already died the "first death" are raised after the 1000 years and die again, this time for eternity.

Two basic resurrections--
Those raised in the first resurrection will never die again, the second death has no power over them.

Those raised in the second resurrection are subject to the second death.


FIRST DEATH
1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order

FIRST RESURRECTION:

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has everlasting life.
6:48 I am that bread of life....
6:54 Whoso eats my flesh, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power,


SECOND RESURRECTION


Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Rev. 20:13 death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


SECOND DEATH

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Rev. 20:14 This is the second death.
Rev. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

21:8 The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.






Psalm 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.







Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Elle] #179545
02/28/16 09:13 AM
02/28/16 09:13 AM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
the death of the old man that is nailed to the cross that dies with Jesus, the death that the baptism represents

Don't the "believers that are qualified to be part of the Melchisedek Priesthood" also go through this experience? If so, that would mean they are also on the broad road that leads to destruction. Who is left on the narrow road that leads to life, which Jesus contrasts with those on the broad road?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: Elle] #179546
02/28/16 09:32 AM
02/28/16 09:32 AM
asygo  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
In Luke 13:23-28 also talks about the narrow gate but it is applied about how the people could avoid the coming judgment.

Jesus says the following:
  • I do not know you, where you are from
  • Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.
  • There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
Did He say this to people who will live with Him eternally in the kingdom of God?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: asygo] #179547
02/28/16 01:43 PM
02/28/16 01:43 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Elle
Could it be possible that the Lord is able to bring everyone to repentance at the great white throne?

Jesus spoke of the narrow way "which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Yes, the narrow gate will give IMMORTALITY (life) to the overcomers at the first resurrection. All the rest will remain with their mortal clothing.

Originally Posted By: asygo
If everyone eventually repents and receives life, in what way is that "few"? That would be "all."

When do believers repent? Right at the beginning of our spiritual birth(=Passover) -- and then we continue to repent(spiritual death of the soul=mind) daily throughout our spiritual sanctification walk(=Pentacost). But do notice that we are still clothed with the mortal body. Right? We are not yet change -- right?

So why do you interpret that if someone repents at the great white throne that they will receive the IMMORTAL Robe(=Life) right away? It was not so for you, nor anyone else in the past. Everyone first had to pass thru the 3 stages of spiritual growth (Passover=righteousness by faith, Pentecost=learn to hear His voice and His laws, Tabernacle=learn to walk in His rest(His Sovereignty) and serve Him) before receiving the IMMORTAL Robe of Life.

They will repent, but do remember that at that time they will have received their court ruling for every unlawful works they have committed. According to the law & the NT, sin equates to a debt that is owed to their victim.

Daniel saw the Lord's throne & the wheels being on fire(Dan 7:9) and a stream(river) came out of it (Dan 7:10). Then in Deut 33:2 it says that His law is a "fiery law". We know that the Lord will judge the people with His law -- right? So the lake of fire that John saw in Rev 20 was a symbolic picture of after the court ruling. The fire(=law) that came out of the throne to judge the people ended up in a lake of fire that symbolized the execution of the sentence of the law and the baptism of fire of the Holy Spirit for whatever time it takes for these to pay their debt and learn righteousness.

AV Isa 26:9 "...for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.


Blessings
Re: Does the Bible Teach that Everybody Is Saved, or that Some Are Saved? [Re: asygo] #179548
02/28/16 02:12 PM
02/28/16 02:12 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Elle
the death of the old man that is nailed to the cross that dies with Jesus, the death that the baptism represents

Don't the "believers that are qualified to be part of the Melchisedek Priesthood" also go through this experience? If so, that would mean they are also on the broad road that leads to destruction. Who is left on the narrow road that leads to life, which Jesus contrasts with those on the broad road?


Yes, the Melchisedek Priesthood also goes through spiritual destruction and needs to die daily too. But they are the only ones that are trained and fully sanctified in their lifetime before they physically die. In another word, the Lord elected them FIRST and transform their "vessel of destruction" into a "vessel of honor" in their lifetime so they may become the FIRSTFRUIT of the remaining Harvests according to the Law. Most believers are not transform and end up dying as an "unfaithful servant" or as a "vessel of destruction".

This is told to us in Rom 9. Not everyone is trained like Jacob to become an overcomer -- a Melchisedek Priest. Esau was not. Prov 13:24 "Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

Esau was a believer from Abraham & Isaac; but the Lord did not train him like he did for Jacob. However, Esau is as valuable in the plan, for the Lord used Esau to train Jacob. Without Esau, the Lord wouldn't of been able to train Jacob. "All work together for good".


Blessings
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