Ell, since under your theology,I have no free will, my answer is

....
Now I'm not sure how one goes about spinning how death means life

...., but there's a few things in Rev 21 which they need to address. For example, here's a few:

• Not being found in the book of Life means you still live?
• There's a first death and a second death and they are still alive? What would be the intention of the author in saying first and second death?
• If satan is cast into the lake of fire just as the lost are, does that mean satan still lives, too?

Not so. I said the second death is a SPIRITUAL DEATH. The DEATH of the OLD MAN that needs to be nailed to the CROSS with Christ. This death we need to DIE daily when we submit to the Lord's will and not to the voice of our own minds.

As we die this death with Christ on the cross, then we too will resurrect as He did in His appointed time. Life comes later with the Resurrection. First we need to DIE the 2nd death several times before receiving that life eternal.

That's what I understand the Bible teaches.



I would disagree with that. When Adam had not sinned yet and before he committed that sin; death(the 1st death -- the physical literal death) came to this world because he failed to died that 2nd death.

So Adam should of died that 2nd death before sin came. Sin come as a result of failing to die the 2nd death because the 2nd death is the death of our own will and a submission to the will of the Lord.

Christ who sinned not had to die the 2nd death at the garden of Getsemanne when He submitted His will to the Father's. He also died the 2nd death when He got baptized and accepted the Father's plan for Him which He knew then that would lead Him to the cross.


You don't have to belief? Or do anything? Where did you get that? -- not from me.

On the contrary, to do the will of God according to Paul in Rom 10:17 "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word[rhema, utterance] of God" I've always been saying for years that without hearing you cannot be in obedience to the will of God -- thus you won't pass thru that narrow gate that Asygo brought up -- thus you will need to be destroyed and get back on the path to life.

Shema is the same Hebrew word for "to hear" or "to obey". Basically, hearing and obeying is the same word and can be used interchangably in Hebrew. You cannot obey without hearing or vice versa.

So it seems in this forum, no person is interested in learning to hear the utterance of God. Maybe you think their's no need because Ellen White already did all the hearing for us. I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. It didn't work that way with the Israelites who relied on Moses to hear for them (Ex 20:19) for they were too afraid to hear the Lord for themself. Why? because when we hear the voice of God it burns the "flesh"(represents our carnality) and they were AFRAID to DIE the 2nd death. So they begged Moses to hear for them for they didn't want to die and yet live.

The 2nd death is not a rose garden. And YES you need to do what the Lord tells you. If you don't, well, you will get corrected and then you will hear again and it will hurt the "flesh" again. The purpose to hear(=obey) properly and accurately is to teach us His laws; and once it is learned perfectly then it gets written in our heart tablets. Without hearing, the laws of God cannot be written inside of you.

NO ONE can come to OBEDIENCE without hearing the voice of God and without dying the 2nd death.

The 2nd death is symbolized as the lake of fire where we get baptized by the Fire(words) of the Holy Spirit. That fire before it was a lake; it started from the throne of God by which Daniel saw as fire. Daniel also saw a river of fire coming out of God's throne. This is because the throne of God represents where the law comes from. That where the Lord will judge all the works of the dead according to His laws. That judgment("the fiery law" Deut 33:2) that proceeded out of the throne -- from the right hand" of God Deut 33:2 via "His saints[the overcomers that resurrected at 1st resurrection and ruled with Christ for 1000 years] are in his hand" (Deut 33:3)] . That fiery law that proceeded out of the throne John saw it become a lake of fire. It was a symbolic picture representing which I currently call "the execution of the judgment pronounced" as the judges equated the sins to a debt(restitution) depending on the lawless works committed.

Restitution is what the judgments laws teaches. The law of Jubilee is the context the payments of that debt is going to be process. Jesus and the overcomers are not going to judge contrary to God's own law and oversee the execution of the court judgment outside of the context of the law of Jubilee.

All of you guys that believe in a literal Hell fire as the 2nd death; you have equated all of God's judgment as one single penalty -- passing His children into a LITERAL FIRE that scripture is very clear that this has not passed in God's own mind and it was the way of MOLECH. (read Jer 19:5; Jer 32:35) This is far from being the Lord's way. Nor is this penalty serving any JUSTICE because it is contrary to the law.

All of you guys that believe in a literal Hell fire as the 2nd death; you have equated all of God's judgment as one single penalty -- passing His children into a LITERAL FIRE ...

If you want to see what the second death looks like, look at Christ's death on the cross.

Oh! [To make a statement -- I believe we have CHOICES but no free will in terms that God sovereignty is above our choices via events and His judgments]

Am I understanding right? : So because you do not agree with my "no free will" view derived from some verses from the Bible that I refuse to ignore ... you will not respond to other discussion subjects that I'm involve? Is this the case?

If so, this seems immature to me at the same time an convenient evasive excuse to ignore the discussion at hand and important questions raised that challenges your view.

I'm led to think that your answer is blank not because of my "no free will" view but rather because you have no answer to give and prefer to ignore those texts.

Maybe kland can answer for you. If not.... then I'll leave this long side tracked off-topic debate that you, kland, dedication, and Green were having ---- for what??? ---- over 12 pages worth of discussion, and I'll proceeds to the discussion at hand.