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Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: kland] #180565
05/14/16 01:54 PM
05/14/16 01:54 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
" never fully entered into that rest and consequently, ended up polluting God's seventh day Sabbath."

Yes and no. Not what Hebrews 4 is talking about regarding "rest". But it's true that since they never entered true rest, that they'd violate all other laws. Including the Sabbath, but not exclusive.

"In Joshua chapter 23, Joshua encourages God's people to completely occupy the Promised Land that God would give them the victory! But, they never did. God is telling us to not make the same mistake that the Israelites made in the time of Joshua."

But nothing talking exclusive of the Sabbath commandment.

Have you read the SDA commentary on Hebrews 3 and 4? Is there something you disagree with them?
(bold emphasis mine)

I agree that it is not exclusively the Sabbath and no, I haven't read what the SDABC says about this. But, Hebrews 4 directly mentions a "seventh day on this wise" in verse 4 relating to God resting at creation.

So, I believe my points to be Biblical. Do you agree kland?

Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: dedication] #180566
05/14/16 01:57 PM
05/14/16 01:57 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Even though there are good points in the SDA commentary, I would have to say, no, I don't agree with their general interpretation of Hebrews 9:4.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I'm confused on this discussion.
I have always understood Hebrews 4:1-10 or 11, to be talking about the ultimate rest in Christ! This would include the rest on God's seventh day Sabbath.


I think you have the right foundational idea. The "rest" the "katapausis" G2663, is the "rest" that is found in Christ.

Jesus says == Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.


This "rest" stands at the central core of the gospel -- it demands faith in Christ, believing in Christ, and leads to finding rest for our souls in Him.

"Rest for your souls" This was the rest into which God wanted to lead the Israelites.
They eventually entered the "promised land", but they didn't find the "rest" for their souls.

This argument the author of Hebrews applies to his own generation. The Jews considered themselves as God's chosen people. They had entered the promised land and established themselves there. Yes, they were in the land, but they certainly had not had rest from their enemies, nor were they resting in God. These things do not bring "rest for the soul".


The rest of the soul, which Christ wants to bestow upon His followers is closely associated with the Sabbath.






What kept the Israelites out of this rest? And how does the author of Hebrews say his generation can enter the rest?

Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest,


It is based on "believing" -- on faith.

The author of this chapter is talking about God's rest -- His rest. "They shall enter into my rest." The time is not some future date, but TODAY, we which have believed do enter into rest. Those who don't enter, didn't enter because of unbelief.



I agree with this post.

Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: Alchemy] #180572
05/16/16 08:41 PM
05/16/16 08:41 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: kland
" never fully entered into that rest and consequently, ended up polluting God's seventh day Sabbath."

Yes and no. Not what Hebrews 4 is talking about regarding "rest". But it's true that since they never entered true rest, that they'd violate all other laws. Including the Sabbath, but not exclusive.

"In Joshua chapter 23, Joshua encourages God's people to completely occupy the Promised Land that God would give them the victory! But, they never did. God is telling us to not make the same mistake that the Israelites made in the time of Joshua."

But nothing talking exclusive of the Sabbath commandment.

Have you read the SDA commentary on Hebrews 3 and 4? Is there something you disagree with them?
(bold emphasis mine)

I agree that it is not exclusively the Sabbath and no, I haven't read what the SDABC says about this. But, Hebrews 4 directly mentions a "seventh day on this wise" in verse 4 relating to God resting at creation.

So, I believe my points to be Biblical. Do you agree kland?
I wasn't disputing whether points made were Biblical. I was disputing whether they were related to what Hebrews 3 and 4 was talking about. Maybe Sunday keepers were correct afterall?


I tend to agree with the commentary unless someone can show me otherwise.

Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: Rick H] #180575
05/17/16 02:22 AM
05/17/16 02:22 AM
dedication  Offline
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The commentary takes for granted that everyone in Paul's audience was keeping the Sabbath, therefore it couldn't be referring to the Sabbath. They spend quite a few paragraphs belaboring that point.


After reading it, I definitely do NOT agree with the SDA commentary on that verse.

It appears that they themselves did not realize what the weekly "Sabbath rest" was meant to be, for them to come to such a conclusion.

Do they really think there was no need to teach people about HOW to relate to the Sabbath day, thinking they were all keeping it meticulously (since they had a lot of rules concerning Sabbath keeping) already? Isn't that a rather strange argument? Didn't Jesus have a bit of a problem with the way the Jewish people were "keeping" the Sabbath?


People then didn't understand what the weekly Sabbath rest in Christ was all about. Yes, they knew the rules, (and made the Sabbath a burden) but did that equal entering the weekly Sabbath rest? And if the SDA commentators think they were all meticulously keeping the Sabbath according to its purpose in relationship with Christ, back in Paul's day, thus there was no need to call people into the Sabbath rest -- they simply show they didn't understand what entering the Sabbath rest was either.

However, there are plenty of Seventh-day Adventist Bible scholars who don't agree with the SDA Bible commentary on this chapter.

Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: dedication] #180580
05/17/16 09:15 PM
05/17/16 09:15 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
The commentary takes for granted that everyone in Paul's audience was keeping the Sabbath, therefore it couldn't be referring to the Sabbath. They spend quite a few paragraphs belaboring that point.


After reading it, I definitely do NOT agree with the SDA commentary on that verse.
Not sure which verse. Maybe 4:4? I was talking about chapter 3 and 4. Did you only read the commentary on one verse?

Quote:
It appears that they themselves did not realize what the weekly "Sabbath rest" was meant to be, for them to come to such a conclusion.

Do they really think there was no need to teach people about HOW to relate to the Sabbath day, thinking they were all keeping it meticulously (since they had a lot of rules concerning Sabbath keeping) already? Isn't that a rather strange argument? Didn't Jesus have a bit of a problem with the way the Jewish people were "keeping" the Sabbath?
Seems like a reasonable argument. However, if I'm taking the position the passage is NOT about the literal seventh day, then do you understand your argument here is non-relevant? You must first show why it's about the literal seventh day.

Quote:
People then didn't understand what the weekly Sabbath rest in Christ was all about. Yes, they knew the rules, (and made the Sabbath a burden) but did that equal entering the weekly Sabbath rest? And if the SDA commentators think they were all meticulously keeping the Sabbath according to its purpose in relationship with Christ, back in Paul's day, thus there was no need to call people into the Sabbath rest -- they simply show they didn't understand what entering the Sabbath rest was either.
Again, this may very well be true. But if the verse is not talking about the seventh day Sabbath, then do realize it is non-relevant.

Quote:
However, there are plenty of Seventh-day Adventist Bible scholars who don't agree with the SDA Bible commentary on this chapter.
I don't know if that's true or not. The majority isn't always correct, so it may be that you are right.

I do know Sunday keepers say it's about a literal day.
I do know Sunday keepers say that since the Hebrews kept the Sabbath, and since there is "another day", then that day is Sunday.
Based upon the knowledge I've gained, I do know Sunday keepers are wrong.
I also know Sunday keepers are a majority....

Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: Rick H] #180583
05/18/16 04:20 AM
05/18/16 04:20 AM
dedication  Offline
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The verse I was referring to was Hebrews 4:9. I was reading mainly comments on Hebrews 4;1-9.

You have brought up the question of "another day" several times, so I'll try to address that.

Quote:
Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remains that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
4:7 Again, he limits a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
4:8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.


Pre-understanding
The Sabbath is mentioned as a sign --
A sign that it is God that sanctifies
Adventists often say it is a sign, but very seldom do we hear what the sign symbolizes.


Quote:
Ezek. 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.
Exodus 31:13 Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it [is] a sign between me and you ..that you may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.


This is an important point in understanding the passage -- the sign of sanctification, is the Sabbath.

Next notice the repeated emphases through Hebrews 3 and 4.
The theme of "hardening the heart" "deceitfulness of sin" rebellion, and unbelief all of which kept Israel from finding the rest.

The author of Hebrews links the "rest" to the seventh-day Sabbath.
Heb. 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Gen. 2:3 God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it, and rested on the seventh day from all His work.


This day which God in the beginning sanctified and upon which He rested, became the sign of sanctification -- the sign of setting apart for holy purpose, the sign of rest in God.

What about the words "Today"
and "another day"?

The word "Today" means simply NOW. The word doesn't mean Sabbath day, but rather referring to probationary time when the call to enter God's rest is being given.
Today == NOW === harden not your heart....

It's "Today, harden not your hearts" stop resisting God's sanctification and stop being deceived by sin, Today while probationary time is still open.


The limited day is "Today" . This day if you will hear his call and respond, you can enter the sanctifying rest of God.

They (Israel under Joshua) failed to enter God's rest -- that day is passed. Since their probationary time ended, is there another day == is probationary time still open?

If Joshua had given them rest, then there would be no need for another day --
The "IF" suggests Joshua did NOT give them rest. He merely led them into Canaan. This statement shows this "rest" was not about entering Canaan. This was the whole problem with the Jewish people, they based their faith upon their land -- they were in the promised land. (It's still confusing people today, who think it's all about the land).

Hebrews however is speaking of the "sanctifying rest", which is the opposite of hard hearts and following the deceitfulness of sin.
Was another day of probation open for the Israelite nation?

So ANOTHER DAY (another day after Joshua's time) was needed, more probationary time for Israel --

The call was given during King David's time.
To day if ye will hear his voice,
Quote:
Psalm 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, [and] as [in] the day of temptation in the wilderness:
95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with [this] generation, and said, It [is] a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.


One "another day" -- was during Ezekiel's time
The call went out.
Jerusalem was about to be destroyed.

Why== six times in Ezekiel 20 the pollution of the Sabbath was mentioned as a reason Jerusalem was about to be destroyed.

Ezekiel calls for Israel to enter the sanctifying rest which the Sabbath represents. He too warns by telling the history of Israel in the wilderness and how they failed by polluting the Sabbath, even though outwardly they kept it.
The sanctifying rest of the Sabbath day was unknown.
They failed -- Jerusalem was destroyed.

At the time Hebrews was written, Israel, as a nation was being given the last "today". It was "another day" of opportunity. A day of great light had come to Israel, as Jesus had walked and taught among them. Justification in Christ was presented, the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit was demonstrated.

But the nation was rejecting all this. Their Sabbaths were not a "sign that God sanctified them"; they had turned it into a burdensome "works" ordeal with thousands of rules and regulations. Their lives, though outwardly pious, were (as Jesus pointed out) like whitened sepulchers filled with dead bone.
The sanctifying power of God was missing.
Their Sabbath keeping was not a sanctifying rest.

Again forty years had almost slipped past since the sanctifying rest had been presented to them. Their nation was about to be destroyed. Their beautiful temple razed to the ground. The last "today" had come. Today, While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts,

This was "another day", it wasn't during Joshua's time, they couldn't do anything about what happened back then, but they could respond "Today" for they were in "another day" and for them probation was still open.


In Hebrews God calls specific attention to the seventh day Sabbath, when God did rest on the seventh day from all His work. This statement the author connects closely with the call to repentance, and not hardening the heart in disbelief and following the deceitfulness of sin.

The Sabbath is a SIGN that God sanctifies us. It is closely connected with finding the rest from our own works of self-righteousness, and being sanctified by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Far from exonerating Sunday, it is a significant restatement of the importance of the Seventh-day Sabbath.
As God rested on the seventh day after His perfect creation of this world, so we rest in Him as we depend on Him to work out holiness in our lives.
In finding this sanctifying rest we keep God's commandment -- one of which is the very sign of this sanctifying rest -- the keeping of the Seventh day.

Sunday is not holy or sanctified, by God. The seventh-day is holy and sanctified by God, and it is a sign that our God that sanctifies us.


Hebrews, in using a different word in 4:9,
Sabbatismos = Sabbath keeping

Heb. 4:9 There remaineth (it is left, it wasn't done away with) Sabbatismos (keeping of the Sabbath) to the people of God
Using this word, instead of the more generic word for "rest" leaves no confusion as to what remains and clinches the connection, between "rest' and "Sabbath keeping".
Keeping the Seventh day Sabbath in it's true meaning, is a sign that we are partaking of Christ's sanctifying rest.














Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: kland] #180584
05/19/16 02:39 PM
05/19/16 02:39 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: kland
" never fully entered into that rest and consequently, ended up polluting God's seventh day Sabbath."

Yes and no. Not what Hebrews 4 is talking about regarding "rest". But it's true that since they never entered true rest, that they'd violate all other laws. Including the Sabbath, but not exclusive.

"In Joshua chapter 23, Joshua encourages God's people to completely occupy the Promised Land that God would give them the victory! But, they never did. God is telling us to not make the same mistake that the Israelites made in the time of Joshua."

But nothing talking exclusive of the Sabbath commandment.

Have you read the SDA commentary on Hebrews 3 and 4? Is there something you disagree with them?
(bold emphasis mine)

I agree that it is not exclusively the Sabbath and no, I haven't read what the SDABC says about this. But, Hebrews 4 directly mentions a "seventh day on this wise" in verse 4 relating to God resting at creation.

So, I believe my points to be Biblical. Do you agree kland?
I wasn't disputing whether points made were Biblical. I was disputing whether they were related to what Hebrews 3 and 4 was talking about. Maybe Sunday keepers were correct afterall?


I tend to agree with the commentary unless someone can show me otherwise.


What does the SDA Bible Commentary teach about Hebrews chapters 3 and 4?

Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: Rick H] #180618
05/24/16 09:39 PM
05/24/16 09:39 PM
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kland  Offline
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A straight reading of the chapters say it is talking about something other than a weekly rest. The commentary agrees.

I understand it saying that Hebrews 3 and 4 is not talking about resting on the 7th, 1st, or any other day, but about rest beyond physical rest, a resting in Christ's righteousness, a future rest, about a rest that has nothing to do with our physical labors. I highly recommend reading it as I believe they have put more thought, time, and collective intellect into the manuscripts, the language, and the writings of the Bible than any of us could possibly do individually. However, they could still be wrong, but I would need something more than an opinion.

Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: Rick H] #180643
05/27/16 05:26 AM
05/27/16 05:26 AM
dedication  Offline
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What is the Sabbath a sign of?
Base answer on the Biblical explanation of what the Sabbath is a sign of.

The Sabbath shall be a sign ...........

Re: Does Christ repeat the Sabbath commandment? [Re: Rick H] #180668
06/03/16 04:07 PM
06/03/16 04:07 PM
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kland  Offline
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Why is that question relevant to Hebrews 3 and 4?

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