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Does anyone really know how the economy works now? #180683
06/05/16 06:29 AM
06/05/16 06:29 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Does anyone really know how the economy works now?

How do we know who or what to listen to if we don't understand how an economy works to begin with?

I believe this is the number one reason why economies don't work well. We the people don't know how they work.

I am interested in the United States economy since I am from the US and it seems this global economy is headed a similar direction.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180684
06/05/16 06:34 AM
06/05/16 06:34 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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I want to start with this premise though;

1) I don't want a social restructuring.

2) I want to keep a non-electronic currency that I can use freely, such as the dollar.

Why?!?

Because I want to live free. I want to be able to travel and buy whatever I want without being traced electronically. I don't want my living and/or purchasing habits monitored or studied.

So, let's try to understand how the US economy works.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180685
06/05/16 06:55 AM
06/05/16 06:55 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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First things first; Where does the economy begin?

This should be easy, but, no one wants to teach the people how the economy works so it's hard to understand where to start. It has taken a lot of people decades to put the pieces together of understanding an economy and we are only now coming to understanding it.

According to the Constitution, the economy starts with the Federal Government. But, with the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, the Central Bank now starts the economy. Since the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 is a law and not a Constitution Amendment, the Federal Government still has the power to start the economy, but, allows the Federal Reserve to do it anyway. A really stupid set-up!

You see, the Federal Government is supposed to maintain the public welfare and hold the public interest as their highest priority. The Federal Reserve, which is a mostly foreign owned private banking system, holds stock holders first in priority.

How is the economy started? Through cash and credit, credit being debt. And the US economy is a debt based economy. The economy is driven or stalled by throttling debt. More debt in the economy and the economy grows. Cutting back on the debt in the economy and the economy shrinks. And it is just that simple.

Interest rates are used as the sales pitch to either encourage or discourage borrowing. Personally, I don't believe there is any need for usury. But, interest sure can add a lot to the debt load.

I'll stop here for now.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180691
06/07/16 12:07 PM
06/07/16 12:07 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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I mentioned before that the US economy, as well as this global economy, is a debt based economy. Cash, so-called, is created through debt. That is why the US dollar is simply a bank note. Our cash is actually debt. A Federal Reserve bank note to be exact.

Bizarre.

Consequently, there isn't any real mechanism in the US economy to pay down or pay off the debt. Now, under the Clinton administration in the 1990's, they actually figured out a way to create a budget surplus. And that was destroyed by the second Bush administration. So, now we struggle to slow ourselves down this slippery slope we are on.

I would like to ask a question here; What does it take to pay down or pay off any debt?

Last edited by Alchemy; 06/07/16 12:08 PM.
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180700
06/07/16 10:00 PM
06/07/16 10:00 PM
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Print, baby, print!

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #180705
06/08/16 12:28 PM
06/08/16 12:28 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Print, baby, print!


I assume you mean print more money. Well, that is part of the solution, but, why and how this money is counted for are the answers to our economic problems, I believe.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180706
06/08/16 12:46 PM
06/08/16 12:46 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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The next point I want to touch on is that the US dollar isn't backed up by any commodities. For instance; The US dollar isn't backed up by gold or silver. I don't believe this is a problem at all. I disagree with Ron Paul on this point. The US dollar is our currency and our faith and support for it is all we need.

The problem here is "globalism"! Our dollar is part of this huge global network where the rules are made on the fly on a case by case basis. There is a three part documentary from PBS, or The Public Broadcasting System, called Commanding Heights where the economy of globalism is covered rather thoroughly.

At about 1:06:07 of the third doc, the issue of a hedge fund company called Long Term Capital Management, or LTCM, was on the verge of bankruptcy. Supposedly, this one company going down could have crashed the entire global market all by itself. This was in 1998 when the US economy was turning white hot by financial standards. How could this be? I see globalism threatening all nations through their currencies and economies.

To protect our currency, we will need to completely get out of the global economy. We can have our own separate trade bills with any country we possibly can, but, not as part of a global economy.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180710
06/09/16 09:18 AM
06/09/16 09:18 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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So, assuming we get out of the global economy. What then? How do we transition into a cash based economy and what does a cash based economy look like?

First; Using the present debt based system, the Federal Government, (yes, I know we normally expect the central bank to do this function and work, but, it is better if the Federal Government does it) can simply buy back whatever debt it sees fit to buy back at face value. All the debt is accounted for responsibly and all the banks are solvent. It is the Federal Government that creates the cash and credit, so, it is their responsibility to buy it back and fix the problem.

In a book and youtube movie called "Princes of the Yen", I learned that the central bank in Japan, the Bank of Japan, did exactly this after World War II. Even banks that may have been destroyed in the war were made solvent. Everyone's money was safe.

Remember, the United States Government watched and monitored all this in Japan after the war, so, we have known about this since then for sure. I don't really know how long our government has known about this function.

After this, adopting a cash based economy is easy without any sacrifice from anybody. We simply use cash, or print cash to back up our own debt! No fear of any collapse when there is money available to cover any bad debts that may develope.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180712
06/09/16 01:25 PM
06/09/16 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: alchemy
No fear of any collapse.
I agree!!! Under your system, the cash will be worthless, no chance for any collapse!


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: APL] #180714
06/10/16 03:23 AM
06/10/16 03:23 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: alchemy
No fear of any collapse.
I agree!!! Under your system, the cash will be worthless, no chance for any collapse!
(bold emphasis mine)

Why will the cash be worthless?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180716
06/10/16 03:35 AM
06/10/16 03:35 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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One last statement before I go.

I don't believe we have a debt problem in our economy. We have a Federal Government and central bank problem. Neither one of these entities seem to want to help the economy at all. Nor do they seem to notice the damage done to people's lives and standard of living. Hence, President Obama clammily he facilitated a recovery to the recession (or more like a depression) from 2007-2010.

Enough people have studied economies in the US and around the world, especially since World War II, that we can understand the issues.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180719
06/10/16 03:15 PM
06/10/16 03:15 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: alchemy
Why will the cash be worthless?
WHAT gives cash value? And as a bonus question - where does 90% of all currency in circulation come from?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180723
06/10/16 04:20 PM
06/10/16 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: kland
Print, baby, print!


I assume you mean print more money. Well, that is part of the solution, but, why and how this money is counted for are the answers to our economic problems, I believe.
Printing more money cannot be a solution. Past history indicates so.

How does one change the system when the system is owned by a private company who stands to lose a lot if it is changed? And has infiltrated and controls our government? That's why it seems they don't want to help the economy.


Where does 90% of all currency in circulation come from? Printing.
Well of course, but more seriously, the government borrows money from a private 3rd party, the private party has the government print it, and then says the government owes debt. Absolutely insane!

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180727
06/10/16 04:49 PM
06/10/16 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Where does 90% of all currency in circulation come from? Printing.
Well of course, but more seriously, the government borrows money from a private 3rd party, the private party has the government print it, and then says the government owes debt. Absolutely insane!
Actually, 90% of all currency in circulation comes from "fractional reserve banking".


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: APL] #180733
06/11/16 11:41 AM
06/11/16 11:41 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: alchemy
Why will the cash be worthless?
WHAT gives cash value? And as a bonus question - where does 90% of all currency in circulation come from?


Where does 90% of all currency come from? I would like to know.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #180734
06/11/16 11:44 AM
06/11/16 11:44 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Originally Posted By: kland
Print, baby, print!


I assume you mean print more money. Well, that is part of the solution, but, why and how this money is counted for are the answers to our economic problems, I believe.
Printing more money cannot be a solution. Past history indicates so.

How does one change the system when the system is owned by a private company who stands to lose a lot if it is changed? And has infiltrated and controls our government? That's why it seems they don't want to help the economy.


Where does 90% of all currency in circulation come from? Printing.
Well of course, but more seriously, the government borrows money from a private 3rd party, the private party has the government print it, and then says the government owes debt. Absolutely insane!



Excellent post kland.

I completely agree with most of your post, but not; "Printing more money cannot be a solution. Past history indicates so."

I am aware of what happened in Germany and Austria after World War I. What caused such hyper-inflation as it is called? Just the presence of more money in the economy!?! That is insane as well. How does money cause hyper-inflation?

Last edited by Alchemy; 06/11/16 11:46 AM.
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: APL] #180736
06/11/16 12:14 PM
06/11/16 12:14 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: kland
Where does 90% of all currency in circulation come from? Printing.
Well of course, but more seriously, the government borrows money from a private 3rd party, the private party has the government print it, and then says the government owes debt. Absolutely insane!
Actually, 90% of all currency in circulation comes from "fractional reserve banking".


Fractional Reserve Banking, another insane idea. The economies of the world are designed to be insane. This is not an accident. Yet, a cash based economy will solve the economic woes of our country at least. Personally, I believe it can work everywhere.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180738
06/11/16 01:12 PM
06/11/16 01:12 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: alchemy
Where does 90% of all currency come from? I would like to know.
As stated above, "fractional reserve banking".


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: APL] #180749
06/12/16 02:25 AM
06/12/16 02:25 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: alchemy
Where does 90% of all currency come from? I would like to know.
As stated above, "fractional reserve banking".


So, only a small part of the debt created is covered by cash? A trillion dollars in debt is created and only 50 billion dollars in cash is printed to help cover all that debt? How much cash do we have as compared with our debt?

A cash based economy will make a lot more sense answering these questions.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180750
06/12/16 02:30 AM
06/12/16 02:30 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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I find it amazing that I asked a simple question about what it takes to pay down or pay off debt, and I don't get a good answer to that question!

In a cash based economy the answer is quite simple.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180752
06/12/16 02:53 AM
06/12/16 02:53 AM
APL  Offline
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What gives cash its value?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: APL] #180755
06/12/16 03:19 AM
06/12/16 03:19 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
What gives cash its value?


Excellent question! And there is a lot of confusion on this point and for good reason. Some say a gold standard. I disagree with that.

But, I will say this; There isn't any natural pressure dictating the value of currencies. These values are far more arbitrary then I like to admit.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180756
06/12/16 03:41 AM
06/12/16 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: alchemy
These values are far more arbitrary then I like to admit.
NOW you are speaking some reality.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: APL] #180758
06/12/16 01:58 PM
06/12/16 01:58 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: alchemy
These values are far more arbitrary then I like to admit.
NOW you are speaking some reality.


Well, I hope you understand what is "reality"? You are too afraid to speak about what reality is.

In the 1990's, certain Asian countries like Thailand, Singapore and South Korea didn't have any gold to use as their standard to back up their currencies. So, they used the US Dollar. Now, since the US Dollar wasn't their national currency I believe this was a big mistake for them.

Well, in 1997, an economic event called "contagion" spread through these "Tiger Economies" as they were called and ate up all their dollars and completely devalued their currencies, even in their own countries! Devastating to their economies.

Of course, the International Monetary Fund, IMF, came from the United States and forced certain political changes for bail out money.

Well, in a cash based economy we would use our dollar to back up all our debt! We can do that since it is our currency. Consequently, there isn't any fear of a crash since there is a dollar for dollar coverage for all our debt. What would happen with foreign currencies couldn't harm that set-up.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: APL] #180759
06/12/16 01:59 PM
06/12/16 01:59 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
What gives cash its value?


So APL, what gives cash its value?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180760
06/12/16 03:27 PM
06/12/16 03:27 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: alchemy
So APL, what gives cash its value?
If you don't understand that, what is the meaning of this thread?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: APL] #180771
06/13/16 03:44 AM
06/13/16 03:44 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: alchemy
So APL, what gives cash its value?
If you don't understand that, what is the meaning of this thread?


Alchemy wrote;

"What does it take to pay down or pay off any debt?"

This is one of the main points of this thread. Do you have anything you would like to add?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180775
06/13/16 09:42 PM
06/13/16 09:42 PM
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Work.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180782
06/14/16 09:42 AM
06/14/16 09:42 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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I have asked a question;

"What does it take to pay down or pay off any debt?"

I understand the lack of response. I don't hold to the conventional fears and gloom imposed on our society by people who should understand how the economy works. The main answer to my question is both simple and safe, and a cash based economy will bring that safe and simple answer to the forefront.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180831
06/25/16 01:24 AM
06/25/16 01:24 AM
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How does the economy work? According to Solomon who made Israel prosper economically to the point that silver was as common as stones in Jerusalem and was "counted as nothing" during his reign - according to him it is righteousness that exalts a nation morally, spiritually and economically.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Charity] #180838
06/25/16 12:22 PM
06/25/16 12:22 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
How does the economy work? According to Solomon who made Israel prosper economically to the point that silver was as common as stones in Jerusalem and was "counted as nothing" during his reign - according to him it is righteousness that exalts a nation morally, spiritually and economically.


Amen!

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180857
06/27/16 11:04 AM
06/27/16 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Does anyone really know how the economy works now?

How do we know who or what to listen to if we don't understand how an economy works to begin with?

I believe this is the number one reason why economies don't work well. We the people don't know how they work.

I am interested in the United States economy since I am from the US and it seems this global economy is headed a similar direction.

Just found it! Since you started this discussion I was trying to relocate this 30 minutes youtube video that explains very simply how the current economic system works : From the Government, to US treasury, to Banks, to Federal Reserve, IOUs are exchanged, Currencies is created, Governement spends these, the spending of these are then redeposit into banks to create fractional reserve lending(creating more IOUs), then portion of these deposit are relend multiple times magnifying the currency exponentially, then we work for these numbers and are taxed, we pay tax to the IRS who turn these numbers to the US Treasury that pays the principle and interest on Bonds to the Federal Reserve, and then the stockholders of the Federal Reserve takes their 6% cut.

The current economic system is purposely complex so the people will not detect the scam. So to have it explain like this video does well, helps us understand how it works and see the scam more clearly.

If you are pressed with time there's a recap of the system from the 18:20 to 22 min mark.


The Biggest Scam In The History Of Mankind - Who Owns The Federal Reserve? Hidden Secrets of Money 4


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #180867
06/28/16 10:22 AM
06/28/16 10:22 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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I was familiar with most of this already. My only real issue with his position is the importance of gold and silver. I believe our cash value should be supported by the value of our labor and accomplishments.

Except for that, I found that video to be excellent.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Charity] #180870
06/28/16 09:15 PM
06/28/16 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I have asked a question;

"What does it take to pay down or pay off any debt?"

I understand the lack of response. I don't hold to the conventional fears and gloom imposed on our society by people who should understand how the economy works. The main answer to my question is both simple and safe, and a cash based economy will bring that safe and simple answer to the forefront.
I said, "work".
You said, "I believe our cash value should be supported by the value of our labor and accomplishments."

Is that the same thing?

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
How does the economy work? According to Solomon who made Israel prosper economically to the point that silver was as common as stones in Jerusalem and was "counted as nothing" during his reign - according to him it is righteousness that exalts a nation morally, spiritually and economically.

Is it true you can "pay down or pay off any debt" by righteousness? Was Israel in debt? Are these questions and comments even related? Mark was addressing the thread title, but I got the impression you thought it answered the above question. Am I wrong.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #180881
06/29/16 08:02 AM
06/29/16 08:02 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I have asked a question;

"What does it take to pay down or pay off any debt?"

I understand the lack of response. I don't hold to the conventional fears and gloom imposed on our society by people who should understand how the economy works. The main answer to my question is both simple and safe, and a cash based economy will bring that safe and simple answer to the forefront.
I said, "work".
You said, "I believe our cash value should be supported by the value of our labor and accomplishments."

Is that the same thing?

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
How does the economy work? According to Solomon who made Israel prosper economically to the point that silver was as common as stones in Jerusalem and was "counted as nothing" during his reign - according to him it is righteousness that exalts a nation morally, spiritually and economically.

Is it true you can "pay down or pay off any debt" by righteousness? Was Israel in debt? Are these questions and comments even related? Mark was addressing the thread title, but I got the impression you thought it answered the above question. Am I wrong.
(bold emphasis mine)

I don't know if you mean it quite like I do?

I mean the value of our dollar, our currency, or this one currency anyway, should be based on the combined labor and achievements of our entire society! Each person and family have their own local application as well, but, I was talking about the value of the dollar as it applies to the nation as a whole.

Did you mean it that way as well?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180884
06/29/16 05:10 PM
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No. And yes. The reason our nation is in debt is because our nation is made up of individuals. Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either.

I'm not sure what you mean by "should be based on the combined labor and achievements of our entire society!". That sounds a little like socialism.

The problem with individuals, local government, state government, our nation is the attitude of "I can't afford it now, but I want it now, I'll pay for it later".

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #180914
07/04/16 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland
No. And yes. The reason our nation is in debt is because our nation is made up of individuals. Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either.

I'm not sure what you mean by "should be based on the combined labor and achievements of our entire society!". That sounds a little like socialism.

The problem with individuals, local government, state government, our nation is the attitude of "I can't afford it now, but I want it now, I'll pay for it later".

(bold emphasis mine)

What do you mean by socialism? I attribute socialism to the economy of Russia and the Soviet Union.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180932
07/05/16 10:40 PM
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Socialism.
Promoted: Everyone shares equally for everyone's benefit.
Reality: Everyone pays for the benefit of the few. And certain people on the "don't like list" pays more.

= Russia and the Soviet Union.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #180939
07/06/16 04:11 AM
07/06/16 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Socialism.
Promoted: Everyone shares equally for everyone's benefit.
Reality: Everyone pays for the benefit of the few. And certain people on the "don't like list" pays more.

= Russia and the Soviet Union.


No. That is not at all what I am saying.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #180940
07/06/16 04:15 AM
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kland wrote;

"Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either." (bold emphasis mine)

I agree completely that you can't borrow your way out of debt. So, can someone pay down and pay off that debt? Of course! But, what does that take? Hard currency or cash.

I can't see it any other way.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180948
07/06/16 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
kland wrote;

"Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either." (bold emphasis mine)

I agree completely that you can't borrow your way out of debt. So, can someone pay down and pay off that debt? Of course! But, what does that take? Hard currency or cash.

I can't see it any other way.

In the current Mystery Babylon complicate system(see video above) with the Federal Reserve charging interest (==USURY : God's perfect economic system forbids usury). A Usury based system makes it IMPOSSIBLE for most (if any at all as today all nations are in debt including the USA and all Europe) nations to pay all back their debt.

That's why Babylon's system is known as a DEBT system that doesn't WORK. Not that they wanted in their system to work -- for the nations to pay off their debt. They had planned from the beginning to put all nations in debt; so that at the end they could RULE over all nations and keep them as PERPETUAL SLAVES. Well, the end part of Mystery Babylon's plan isn't in God's plan.

The Lord did allow this Beast System to rule for a time and to in-debt all the nations. The Lord will use Babylon's failure so that the nations could come to see that a usury type of Banking system doesn't work. The Lord is ripening the nations so that they would come to consider God's perfect economical system describe in the law. God plan to establish all His laws in His Kingdom and have His Saints of the Most High to rule( to shepherd is the Biblical definition of ruling) with Christ.

Does anyone know how God's economic system works? This is something that we Christian should study.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #180951
07/06/16 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
kland wrote;

"Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either." (bold emphasis mine)

I agree completely that you can't borrow your way out of debt. So, can someone pay down and pay off that debt? Of course! But, what does that take? Hard currency or cash.

I can't see it any other way.

In the current Mystery Babylon complicate system(see video above) with the Federal Reserve charging interest (==USURY : God's perfect economic system forbids usury). A Usury based system makes it IMPOSSIBLE for most (if any at all as today all nations are in debt including the USA and all Europe) nations to pay all back their debt.

That's why Babylon's system is known as a DEBT system that doesn't WORK. Not that they wanted in their system to work -- for the nations to pay off their debt. They had planned from the beginning to put all nations in debt; so that at the end they could RULE over all nations and keep them as PERPETUAL SLAVES. Well, the end part of Mystery Babylon's plan isn't in God's plan.

The Lord did allow this Beast System to rule for a time and to in-debt all the nations. The Lord will use Babylon's failure so that the nations could come to see that a usury type of Banking system doesn't work. The Lord is ripening the nations so that they would come to consider God's perfect economical system describe in the law. God plan to establish all His laws in His Kingdom and have His Saints of the Most High to rule( to shepherd is the Biblical definition of ruling) with Christ.

Does anyone know how God's economic system works? This is something that we Christian should study.


Excellent post, Elle.

I agree that the Bible forbids usury, or interest. I can easily see that interest is of no use in our economy today. So, to end usury would be a great thing. But, I really don't know how that would work.

To answer your question; No, I really don't know exactly how God's type of economy would work.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180962
07/07/16 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
kland wrote;

"Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either." (bold emphasis mine)

I agree completely that you can't borrow your way out of debt. So, can someone pay down and pay off that debt? Of course! But, what does that take? Hard currency or cash.

I can't see it any other way.
No. Hard work.

The reason people are in debt is because they want things without working for it. To get out of debt, to pay off debt, the only way is by working. Gold, notes, IOUs are only symbols of that work. Unless you steal it.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #180967
07/08/16 12:01 AM
07/08/16 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Kland : "Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either." (bold emphasis mine)

Alchemy : I agree completely that you can't borrow your way out of debt. So, can someone pay down and pay off that debt? Of course! But, what does that take? Hard currency or cash.

I can't see it any other way.

Kland: No. Hard work.

The reason people are in debt is because they want things without working for it. To get out of debt, to pay off debt, the only way is by working. Gold, notes, IOUs are only symbols of that work. Unless you steal it.

Kland, it's not as simplistic as you say. There are such things as brainwashing a society that they need all this stuff that they really don't need and giving them a credit card and easy loans and etc....

You seem to not be aware of the debt system that is design to in-debt a nation. For sure some individuals can pay off their debt and stay debt free. But not the nations as a whole; it is impossible. Watch the video. You will see what I mean.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180968
07/08/16 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I agree that the Bible forbids usury, or interest. I can easily see that interest is of no use in our economy today. So, to end usury would be a great thing. But, I really don't know how that would work.

To answer your question; No, I really don't know exactly how God's type of economy would work.

We need to know how the Lord's economy laws and system work; so we can implement them in our own business dealings and teach these to our neighbors and make an outcry when our government breaks these divine laws in our country.

For example, Christians and Islamic nations has demanded that the NO USURY law was respected in the world as long as the late 1700s or 1800s. Usury was only introduced just recently in the Western world because Christians has lost the awareness of this law and didn't sounded their objection when it was introduced.

If you would like, we can study these by extracting them from the law. If so, then maybe start another discussion or branch this topic in this discussion since it is closely related.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #180980
07/10/16 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
kland wrote;

"Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either." (bold emphasis mine)

I agree completely that you can't borrow your way out of debt. So, can someone pay down and pay off that debt? Of course! But, what does that take? Hard currency or cash.

I can't see it any other way.
No. Hard work.

The reason people are in debt is because they want things without working for it. To get out of debt, to pay off debt, the only way is by working. Gold, notes, IOUs are only symbols of that work. Unless you steal it.


I don't have any issue with people working smart and hard to gain a return on their labor. But, I don't believe payment is an adequate symbol of that labor.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #180981
07/10/16 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I agree that the Bible forbids usury, or interest. I can easily see that interest is of no use in our economy today. So, to end usury would be a great thing. But, I really don't know how that would work.

To answer your question; No, I really don't know exactly how God's type of economy would work.

We need to know how the Lord's economy laws and system work; so we can implement them in our own business dealings and teach these to our neighbors and make an outcry when our government breaks these divine laws in our country.

For example, Christians and Islamic nations has demanded that the NO USURY law was respected in the world as long as the late 1700s or 1800s. Usury was only introduced just recently in the Western world because Christians has lost the awareness of this law and didn't sounded their objection when it was introduced.

If you would like, we can study these by extracting them from the law. If so, then maybe start another discussion or branch this topic in this discussion since it is closely related.


Just to touch on one point I would be concerned with; I can't see instituting the Jubilee! Do you?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #180982
07/11/16 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Quote:
Kland : "Just like individuals cannot borrow their way out of debt, nations cannot either." (bold emphasis mine)

Alchemy : I agree completely that you can't borrow your way out of debt. So, can someone pay down and pay off that debt? Of course! But, what does that take? Hard currency or cash.

I can't see it any other way.

Kland: No. Hard work.

The reason people are in debt is because they want things without working for it. To get out of debt, to pay off debt, the only way is by working. Gold, notes, IOUs are only symbols of that work. Unless you steal it.

Kland, it's not as simplistic as you say. There are such things as brainwashing a society that they need all this stuff that they really don't need and giving them a credit card and easy loans and etc....
Brainwashed or not, the issue is the same: People want things without working for it.

Quote:

You seem to not be aware of the debt system that is design to in-debt a nation. For sure some individuals can pay off their debt and stay debt free. But not the nations as a whole; it is impossible. Watch the video. You will see what I mean.
I disagree. But will watch the video if it's not that Jim Willie or whoever with the donkey.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #180983
07/11/16 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy

I don't have any issue with people working smart and hard to gain a return on their labor. But, I don't believe payment is an adequate symbol of that labor.
What would you consider an adequate symbol of that labor?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #181012
07/14/16 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Just to touch on one point I would be concerned with; I can't see instituting the Jubilee! Do you?

Yes I do. And not only me but many economist, financial and political experts thinks so too. I think it is the only solution if you seek to bring restoration after an unjust tyrannical debt system that enslaved the inhabitants of the world.

1. Here's a reasonable suggestion how to implement a Jubilee with the US treasury Bonds [debt note that is worthless] posted recently in another discussion :Jubilee Solution proposed by Helen Brown

2. Two Historical TYPES with many Jubilee elements was implement in the past after a destruction of a kingdom. I believe these are TYPES(prophecy) of things to come.

....a) The Jubilee type at the Exodus of Egypt : Egypt not only had the Israelites as slaves, but had made many others from other nations as slaves. Their economic rested on the production of their slaves. Today's Mystery Babylon's system is similar (see video above) but it is more deceiving making the slaves unaware that they are slaves. When the Lord freed the Egyptian slaves; they did not come out empty handed but with the "spoils" of Egypt.

AV Ex 3:21 And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty: 22 But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put [them] upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.

....b). After the Fall of Babylon in 537 BC : We are told that the captives nations, including the nation of Judah, were free to return to their homeland after the collapse of Babylon. Plus we are told that Cyrus funded the restoration of the nations cities and temples as accounted for in the Bible for the nation of Judah in the book of Ezra.

One place this account is found is in the clay cylinder of Cyrus telling of his Babylonian conquest. Here's a summary of it :

Quote:
This clay cylinder is inscribed in Babylonian cuneiform with an account by Cyrus, king of Persia (559-530 BC) of his conquest of Babylon in 539 BC and capture of Nabonidus, the last Babylonian king.

Cyrus claims to have achieved this with the aid of Marduk, the god of Babylon. He then describes measures of relief he brought to the inhabitants of the city, and tells how he returned a number of images of gods, which Nabonidus had collected in Babylon, to their proper temples throughout Mesopotamia and western Iran. At the
same time he arranged for the restoration of these temples, and organized the return to their homelands of a number of people who had been held in Babylonia by the Babylonian kings.
Although the Jews are not mentioned in this document, their return to Palestine following their deportation by Nebuchadnezzar II, was part of this policy.

This cylinder has sometimes been described as the 'first charter of human rights', but it in fact reflects a long tradition in Mesopotamia where, from as early as the third millennium BC, kings began their reigns with declarations of reforms.


My discernment : Because a Jubilee Type was given twice in Biblical history, and one of these is after the destruction of Babylon -- I do expect that after the destruction of Mystery Babylon the same occurrence will happen because the Lord linked up the fall of Mystery Babylon with old Babylon by name and in Rev 16:12.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #181017
07/15/16 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Alchemy

I don't have any issue with people working smart and hard to gain a return on their labor. But, I don't believe payment is an adequate symbol of that labor.
What would you consider an adequate symbol of that labor?


What I believe we need to realize today is that most people suffering today aren't in those positions due to their lack of responsibility or hard work. It is from all these booms and busts in the economy. Situations and events completely out of their control.

Secondly, a fair wage may be deserved, but, it is not in and of itself an adequate symbol of one's labor. It is the character and integrity developed over time through experience.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #181020
07/15/16 02:53 AM
07/15/16 02:53 AM
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The whole system that has taken over the economy is designed to ruin a true "capitalism" society. Years ago, people worked hard and were able to buy and sell their products. Small business flourished. Family farms were common. Everyone had a chance, with a little wisdom and hard work to make an honest living.

But then everything started to change. Monopolies, supported by government, took away true capitalism and started making all kinds of rules and restrictions, buying and selling laws, and taxes that took away the privileges that were once enjoyed. Now the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and the middle class is shrinking.

Once a father could earn enough to support his family, now with both husband and wife working people barely make ends meet.

It's not just the "debt" idea -- bad as it is, and all the strange "interest" schemes that steal money from the poor and give it to the rich...
There is a plan to destroy the freedoms, and financial privileges of the majority of common people.
It's fueled by the compulsion of a few to rule the masses and bring them under subjection.

There will be a "restructuring", but it won't be good, it will be terrible! Government claims the right to seize everything. The world will hurl into a time of trouble such as never was, but God will deliver His people.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #181102
07/21/16 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: kland


Originally Posted By: Elle

You seem to not be aware of the debt system that is design to in-debt a nation. For sure some individuals can pay off their debt and stay debt free. But not the nations as a whole; it is impossible. Watch the video. You will see what I mean.
I disagree. But will watch the video if it's not that Jim Willie or whoever with the donkey.

Ok, I watched it. Assuming it's true, it was very informing. What I had heard before of the Federal Reserve was more simplified, but the end result was the same.

I checked the website, and as expected, they were pawning off their gold and silver. Guess that's their solution.

According to what they say is happening, there's not much one can do (other than buy their gold!). It's best to encourage everyone to go in debt to support the system, to make it last long enough for you. An individual wins by not being in debt. A local government or nation could win and be out of debt as long as the others keep in debt. One doesn't have to buy what they can't afford.

But as hinted at in the video, work is the true value. If it wasn't for the people working, this Ponzi scheme wouldn't work. Shuffling IOUs (nor gold) doesn't produce things.

So buy more, go in debt more, help profit those who don't buy into the scheme. Thank you!

Hey, how about going into debt to buy pavement? If enough people do that, the scheme could last a little longer.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #181135
07/23/16 05:26 PM
07/23/16 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Elle : You seem to not be aware of the debt system that is design to in-debt a nation. For sure some individuals can pay off their debt and stay debt free. But not the nations as a whole; it is impossible. Watch the video. You will see what I mean.

Kland : According to what they say is happening, there's not much one can do (other than buy their gold!).

That's true their's nothing much one can do BECAUSE the current system is a DEBT System design to put nations into debt. It is unsustainable no matter how much people of a nation WORK HARD or how good of a stewards they are with their money. It is mathematically impossible to pay the national debt.

Let's view this very simplistically. Let's say a private bank lends a country 100 Billion with interest. When there's only 100 Billion circulating within the nation -- it is impossible to pay back 100 + 20% interest(whatever the interest rate is set). Let's say your country succeeds to get the 20% interest charge from your neighbor's country thru sales...well then your neighbor country won't be able to pay their debt and will eventually become broke and won't have the money to buy any of your goods in the future....thus you yourself will eventually be unable to pay your own debt for all countries around you won't have the money to buy your goods. The system doesn't mathematically WORK on the long run in a global perspective. Today we are facing the end of this LONG RUN where ALL Countries find them self in DEBT beyond their necks.

Then let's add to this impossible mathematical equation ....the US government infinity and beyond money printing frenzy and the too-big-to-fail-banks gambling addictions which are the real BIG SPENDERS and contributors of the national debt. The Banks have over 700 TRILLIONS of accumulated in Derivatives Debt!!! Just Crazy! Then they have built in their laws that the citizens will bail them out. There's no accountability whatsoever for them (Banks & government Agencies) that are really responsible for the national debt. So they can continue their spending that further puts the nation in debt.

Then to add to this we have the rigging of all rates of commodities (see LIBOR scandals), and etc... The whole Babylonian(FED-IMF...) monetary system is so corrupt to its core that no people can make it work or save it ---for it is design to enslave and exploit the nation while only the few Elites on the top profits from it.


The Kings of the Easts Demands a Reform and Return to the Currency Gold Backing

In 2010, the Lord has raised up China and Russia (today's Kings of the East) to challenge and put an end to Mystery Babylon's 70 years domination that took stride after the World War II. The US dollar became the world currency then only because the nations agreed to make the US dollar the World currency having it backed by GOLD. (see video link below for more details) This was establish with the Breton Wood Agreement in 1944. However, the GOLD backing part of the 1944 Agreement was gutted out after the Vietnam War in 1971. The US Government (via their Elites handlers) made GOLD obsolete. That's when the DEBT machine grew exponential bigger having the ability to print money to infinity and beyond.

This was crazy and very unfair for all other nations. So that's why China, Russia and over 50 nations allies ask to bring back the GOLD backing as it was established in 1944 and reform the system to make it transparent, accountable, and fair for all other nations.

Originally Posted By: kland
It's best to encourage everyone to go in debt to support the system, to make it last long enough for you. An individual wins by not being in debt. A local government or nation could win and be out of debt as long as the others keep in debt. One doesn't have to buy what they can't afford.

Some individuals or even some municipalities can stay out of debt; but I see it impossible for a nation as a whole to be debt free.
You lack some perspective and understanding in your analysis.

Originally Posted By: kland
But as hinted at in the video, work is the true value. If it wasn't for the people working, this Ponzi scheme wouldn't work. Shuffling IOUs (nor gold) doesn't produce things.

Even if a nation produce a whole bunch of stuff, you cannot escape the basic fact that the private banks LOANS the nation's money at INTEREST that is impossible to pay off.

Originally Posted By: kland
Hey, how about going into debt to buy pavement? If enough people do that, the scheme could last a little longer.

Too bad you do the same error as the Israelites of old, the Muslims (via Abraham's teachings passed down to Ishmael) , the Christians, and the Jews of today --- reading the Bible passages LITERALLY when the Lord was very EXPLICIT telling us He speaks in "dark speeches" -- chiydah H2420 that means "a puzzle"(Num 12:8). In another word, the Lord's language is filled with symbolism (or types and shadows) that needs to be solved.


James Davidson’s Analysis

I just viewed James video Analysis which I highly recommend viewing. Very informative. Below is Stephen Jones comments and summary about it.

Quote:
James Davidson is a founding member and head of the National Taxpayers Union. In the late 1980’s everyone laughed at him when he predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union. But he was right. Now he openly talks about the replacement of the US dollar within the coming year. He says that China and Russia have a four-step plan:

1. Ignore the Bretton Woods Agreement and begin trading in their own currencies, rather than in US dollars. Since Nixon in 1971 had already decided to ignore Bretton Woods by abandoning the gold standard, the US could only complain hypocritically.

2. Create their own International Monetary Fund (IMF). They did so by creating the AIIB in 2015.

3. Create their own global currency (that is, a basket of currencies including the yuan).

4. Sell US dollars (bonds) and trigger the collapse of the US dollar.

The first two items on the list have been completed. The third is nearing completion, which will then allow them to collapse the US dollar itself. This will cause the rest of the nations to lose confidence in the dollar, and they will then demand a new world currency—which is ready to be implemented by the AIIB.

Fallout from the Demise of the Dollar

According to Davidson, we will see seven results of the demise of the dollar.

1. The dollar value will collapse

2. Prices will double

3. Unemployment will triple

4. Social Security and Medicare will suffer and perhaps end

5. Taxes will double as the government’s money tree will be gone

6. Real estate values will plummet by 50%

7. Stocks will collapse by 60-80%

The link below gives some background on Davidson himself and also provides a one-hour video that is very informative. At the end, he advertises some of his books that tell you how to protect yourself from the “Day of Reckoning.” The problem, of course, is that he shares the problem and its causes, but wants you to buy his books to learn the solution. This video is essentially an advertisement, but it also contains much useful information.

http://thesovereigninvestor.com/exclusives/americas-day-reckoning-exposed/?z=497177


The link video is provided in the half end part of the page.

http://thesovereigninvestor.com/exclusives/americas-day-reckoning-exposed/?z=497177

or try this link to go straight to the video.

http://pro.strategicinvestment.com/NDPCUR1/PNDPS429/?h=true

James explains how the US dollar became the world currency. And it wasn't because of "hard work". This video reflects back on what happened historically to other leading world currencies (Rome, Netherlands, and the British). In each of these past occurence, when their currencies lost their value, they lost their worldwide dominance and got replaced by another.

This historical dominating currency collapse scenario is repeating again. This time with the US dollar. However in the new system every country will be able to exchange between each other for their currency will be backed by gold. So, the gold setting will be the exchangeable rating between two countries for trades and contracts. No more exchanging with a dominating currency like it is today with the US dollar.

No one can dispute with the fact that the US dollar is currently collapsing before our eyes. Many experts expects that we are only weeks or months away of this collapse and the US dollar loosing their dominance. Some say that it will loose up to 90% of its value during the collapse.

The when is when China and its allies will form more than 70% of the world economy. That's no later than the end of 2016 when 27 countries expects to ratify their membership in the AIIB by then. Currently the AIIB have 57 members that represents 62% of the world economy. So they are not very far from their goal. That's when it will be official that the US dollar will loose its worldwide leading position.

When the US dollar will loose its value, I'm afraid no one will be seeing some "gold pavement" in heaven other than, a few going there in the Spirit but shortly returning back to earth -- like it was when Ellen White went to heaven. If you go, I doubt very much you will be able to bring back some gold bricks from heaven to help your situation on earth. I wouldn't count on it. I've never heard anyone bringing back anything from heaven after visiting in the Spirit. Have you?


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #181149
07/24/16 11:12 AM
07/24/16 11:12 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Oops, my link in this post didn't fully work. Here's the link to Helen Brown proposed Jubilee Solution. The Jubilee solution is found in her article BREXIT and the Derivatives Time Bomb.


The Banks Derivatives Time Bomb

The Derivatives Market Time Bomb is estimated to be at least 700 Trillions which are really Bank Debts derived from the stock market. The real amount is still not in the open yet. Nor this has been put on the nations debt tally yet--- as according to the Banks by-laws, the people has to bail them out. The banks are seriously in debt themselves with their casino spending addictions -- much worst than any national debts.

Last year, China & their allies put pressure on the Banks to provide a viable disaster plan in the case of Bankruptcy. Of course, their disaster plan provided was for the people to bail them out. That wasn't a viable solution, so they have until this coming fall to provide a viable solution... and if they have none by then, they will have to start liquidating their operation. So this deadline is coming this fall.

I can't find the post right now that has the media article about this. When I'll find it I'll post it here as this is an important article and coming event.

------------------------------------

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Just to touch on one point I would be concerned with; I can't see instituting the Jubilee! Do you?

Yes I do. And not only me but many economist, financial and political experts thinks so too. I think it is the only solution if you seek to bring restoration after an unjust tyrannical debt system that enslaved the inhabitants of the world.

1. Here's a reasonable suggestion how to implement a Jubilee with the US treasury Bonds [debt note that is worthless] posted recently in another discussion :Jubilee Solution proposed by Helen Brown

2. Two Historical TYPES with many Jubilee elements was implement in the past after a destruction of a kingdom. I believe these are TYPES(prophecy) of things to come.

....a) The Jubilee type at the Exodus of Egypt : Egypt not only had the Israelites as slaves, but had made many others from other nations as slaves. Their economic rested on the production of their slaves. Today's Mystery Babylon's system is similar (see video above) but it is more deceiving making the slaves unaware that they are slaves. When the Lord freed the Egyptian slaves; they did not come out empty handed but with the "spoils" of Egypt.

AV Ex 3:21 And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty: 22 But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put [them] upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.

....b). After the Fall of Babylon in 537 BC : We are told that the captives nations, including the nation of Judah, were free to return to their homeland after the collapse of Babylon. Plus we are told that Cyrus funded the restoration of the nations cities and temples as accounted for in the Bible for the nation of Judah in the book of Ezra.

One place this account is found is in the clay cylinder of Cyrus telling of his Babylonian conquest. Here's a summary of it :

Quote:
This clay cylinder is inscribed in Babylonian cuneiform with an account by Cyrus, king of Persia (559-530 BC) of his conquest of Babylon in 539 BC and capture of Nabonidus, the last Babylonian king.

Cyrus claims to have achieved this with the aid of Marduk, the god of Babylon. He then describes measures of relief he brought to the inhabitants of the city, and tells how he returned a number of images of gods, which Nabonidus had collected in Babylon, to their proper temples throughout Mesopotamia and western Iran. At the
same time he arranged for the restoration of these temples, and organized the return to their homelands of a number of people who had been held in Babylonia by the Babylonian kings.
Although the Jews are not mentioned in this document, their return to Palestine following their deportation by Nebuchadnezzar II, was part of this policy.

This cylinder has sometimes been described as the 'first charter of human rights', but it in fact reflects a long tradition in Mesopotamia where, from as early as the third millennium BC, kings began their reigns with declarations of reforms.


My discernment : Because a Jubilee Type was given twice in Biblical history, and one of these is after the destruction of Babylon -- I do expect that after the destruction of Mystery Babylon the same occurrence will happen because the Lord linked up the fall of Mystery Babylon with old Babylon by name and in Rev 16:12.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #181166
07/25/16 09:43 PM
07/25/16 09:43 PM
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Quote:
In 2010, the Lord has raised up China and Russia (today's Kings of the East) to challenge and put an end to Mystery Babylon's 70 years domination that took stride after the World War II. The US dollar became the world currency then only because the nations agreed to make the US dollar the World currency having it backed by GOLD.

How does Gold change anything if a nation borrows in gold? They would have only so much physical gold. How does it work if they want to spend more than they have?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #181169
07/26/16 06:38 PM
07/26/16 06:38 PM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
In 2010, the Lord has raised up China and Russia (today's Kings of the East) to challenge and put an end to Mystery Babylon's 70 years domination that took stride after the World War II. The US dollar became the world currency then only because the nations agreed to make the US dollar the World currency having it backed by GOLD.

How does Gold change anything if a nation borrows in gold? They would have only so much physical gold. How does it work if they want to spend more than they have?
(bold emphasis mine)

This is always the question! What if they print more currency or borrow more than the value of the gold they hold in reserve? Gold and silver are in too short of supply! How do you allow your population to grow? How do you allow your economy to grow?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #181176
07/27/16 10:05 PM
07/27/16 10:05 PM
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People would get poorer and poorer, some would gather more for themselves. Sounds a lot like the current situation. While fabricating money out of thin air is not right, changing it to gold or silver doesn't really change things. That's why a receipt for work done is best no matter what material that receipt is made of. You want more, you work more.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #181204
07/29/16 09:43 PM
07/29/16 09:43 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Quote:
In 2010, the Lord has raised up China and Russia (today's Kings of the East) to challenge and put an end to Mystery Babylon's 70 years domination that took stride after the World War II. The US dollar became the world currency then only because the nations agreed to make the US dollar the World currency having it backed by GOLD.

How does Gold change anything if a nation borrows in gold?

The Federal Reserve will be removed. No more private banks lending "paper money" or the same old system under some new garment of "gold money". What is talked about is all countries will print their own money -- meaning no more lending fiat currencies by outside private banks with interest (which is usury).

Countries were told since 2010 that the Gold standard stipulated in the Breton Wood Act needs to be brought back but they will remove a world controlled by a dominating currency like it was with the USD and before that the English pound, and before that the dutch money.

Also they(China & allies) wants to bring back the Steagall Glass Legislation into effect that prevented corruption by the commercial and investment Banks. Only by reinstating these two legislations, it will make a big difference from how things operates today.

Originally Posted By: kland
They would have only so much physical gold. How does it work if they want to spend more than they have?

There's many entities that plays into this as far as I've been hearing. I don't know what is rumor or factual plans but will list them.

First, there's talks from 4 different sources that the price of gold will be jumped to at least $5000 per oz. This will increase the value of gold each countries have in reserve to decrease their debt and allow to print more money.

Second, there will be a re-evaluation of all currencies in the world. All currencies of the Western allied countries like US, Canada, Europe, Japan, etc... their value are very hyped. Whereas other countries that has been bullied by the US Millitary because they weren't conforming with their banking system handlers; thus besides being destroyed by war, their currencies have been ridiculously de-evaluated (like Vietnam, Iraq, etc...). There's lots of governmental preparation to increase the value of their currency quite significantly.

Third, what I understand, not only gold reserve holdings will mark the value of a country, but also their GDP and most likely their natural resources.

All in all, no matter how good, fair, and pure the Chinese and its allies will figure out their new system may be ; it can slowly become corrupt by changing the by-laws or re-interpretating them by men with un-pure motives.

But my hunch is the biggest problem they will encounter immediately after the fall of Mystery Babylon, is that since Mystery Babylon create such an enormous problem; that the solution to it won't be so simple to fix. Plus, since they(most nations' leaders) do not know God's perfect economical system described in the law(even Christian doesn't understand it); I expect that the Chinese & allied nations new system will be lacking in many ways and will be in need of constant revision as the nations learns about God's laws.

I based this expectation from Daniel 2 and Isaiah 2:

Daniel 2 prophecies that after the destruction of the last Beast Kingdom (=Mystery Babylon), the next kingdom will be ruled by the Saints of the Most High. (Dan 7:18,22,25,27) This new kingdom is not the same as the Chinese and its allies new kingdom. God's new kingdom will be establish on earth and will start very small but will grow into a huge mountain that will come to fill the whole earth.("... and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." Dn 2:36). Also Daniel 2:44; 7:18 says that this new kingdom will last for ever and ever and will not be replaced by another.


Whereas, Isaiah 2 prophecies say that the nations will flow to God's mountain to be taught the law.

AV Isa 2:2 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."


To me these prophecies points that all the nations as they flow up to the mountain of God to find God's solution to their problem, will eventually joined the Kingdom of God during the coming millennium when the Saints of the Most High will have their robes of glory and will know perfectly the law with the mind of Christ.

Since Dan 2:35 says the stone kingdom will start small and eventually filled the whole earth; thus it might take the whole 1000 years for all the nations to join the Kingdom of God. And only then we will have a perfect world wide economic system that will be founded on the perfect law of God.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #181221
07/30/16 10:20 AM
07/30/16 10:20 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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$5,000.00 per ounce of gold won't be enough for the situation in the USA.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #181227
07/30/16 06:03 PM
07/30/16 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Alchemy
$5,000.00 per ounce of gold won't be enough for the situation in the USA.

I agree it won't be enough for rumors is that the USA have NO GOLD. Many believe that Fort Knox is empty. Unless they can repossess the Gold the Elites have stollen. We will see how bad we will find ourselves at the end of the fall of Babylon which is probably by the end of 2017.

The same with Canada. In January 2016 they announce they sold all their Gold reserve! That's quite stupid, but our leaders' dedication to the Mystery Babylon's Elites is more important than being smart and wise. In another word Trudeau is a Zionist puppet like Obama.

So what's coming for the USA & Canada and other puppet Zioinist led countries that has no gold reserve? --- well we might find ourselves in the same situation than Venezuela are currently in. Many financial experts are talking that our currencies will loose up to 90% of our value. That's significant that will have a huge impact on everyone. We won't be able to buy China's and other foreign countries stuff anymore.

I also hear talk that China & its allies wants to prevent a mass hysteria in these zionist puppet led countries. They understand the situation these countries are in.

So I do expect some aid programs coming our way; but yet I don't expect that we will have that much. Just enough to survive. We will have to cut significantly our lifestyle spendings and start opening up our own industries and make our own stuff. We will be poor, but we will survive in the long run and become stronger. So this situation will become a blessing in disguised because it will bring back our industries that we have been loosing slowly since the WW2 via stupid offshore sourcing policies made by our government purposely to bring us into deeper debt.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #181236
07/31/16 11:29 AM
07/31/16 11:29 AM
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Alchemy  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
$5,000.00 per ounce of gold won't be enough for the situation in the USA.

I agree it won't be enough for rumors is that the USA have NO GOLD. Many believe that Fort Knox is empty. Unless they can repossess the Gold the Elites have stollen. We will see how bad we will find ourselves at the end of the fall of Babylon which is probably by the end of 2017.

The same with Canada. In January 2016 they announce they sold all their Gold reserve! That's quite stupid, but our leaders' dedication to the Mystery Babylon's Elites is more important than being smart and wise. In another word Trudeau is a Zionist puppet like Obama.

So what's coming for the USA & Canada and other puppet Zioinist led countries that has no gold reserve? --- well we might find ourselves in the same situation than Venezuela are currently in. Many financial experts are talking that our currencies will loose up to 90% of our value. That's significant that will have a huge impact on everyone. We won't be able to buy China's and other foreign countries stuff anymore.

I also hear talk that China & its allies wants to prevent a mass hysteria in these zionist puppet led countries. They understand the situation these countries are in.

So I do expect some aid programs coming our way; but yet I don't expect that we will have that much. Just enough to survive. We will have to cut significantly our lifestyle spendings and start opening up our own industries and make our own stuff. We will be poor, but we will survive in the long run and become stronger. So this situation will become a blessing in disguised because it will bring back our industries that we have been loosing slowly since the WW2 via stupid offshore sourcing policies made by our government purposely to bring us into deeper debt.


Well, I hope we have some gold left. We got that gold fairly and justly by selling our goods to Europe during World Wars I and II. Now, because of that Brenton Woods disaster, we have been losing our gold. I still hope we have some left.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #181243
08/01/16 08:34 PM
08/01/16 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Elle
To me these prophecies points that all the nations as they flow up to the mountain of God to find God's solution to their problem, will eventually joined the Kingdom of God during the coming millennium when the Saints of the Most High will have their robes of glory and will know perfectly the law with the mind of Christ.

Since Dan 2:35 says the stone kingdom will start small and eventually filled the whole earth; thus it might take the whole 1000 years for all the nations to join the Kingdom of God. And only then we will have a perfect world wide economic system that will be founded on the perfect law of God.

Would you say this is not what the SDA church teaches?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #181246
08/02/16 06:29 AM
08/02/16 06:29 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Quote:
Elle :To me these prophecies points that all the nations as they flow up to the mountain of God to find God's solution to their problem, will eventually joined the Kingdom of God during the coming millennium when the Saints of the Most High will have their robes of glory and will know perfectly the law with the mind of Christ.

Since Dan 2:35 says the stone kingdom will start small and eventually filled the whole earth; thus it might take the whole 1000 years for all the nations to join the Kingdom of God. And only then we will have a perfect world wide economic system that will be founded on the perfect law of God.

Kland: Would you say this is not what the SDA church teaches?

??? You know I know. Would you say this is what thus says the Lord?


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #181251
08/02/16 10:42 PM
08/02/16 10:42 PM
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kland  Offline
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I'm just wondering what basis beliefs about our church do you still believe? I mean, how far different can you still count yourself as an SDA?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #181255
08/03/16 10:03 AM
08/03/16 10:03 AM
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Elle  Offline
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??? kland your badly off-topic and I would say not within forum rules.

When I bring you a point based on some scriptures and if you disagree -- then counter it why you think my point doesn't embrace ALL scriptures. Or correct if I took the scriptures out of context, or if I have twisted the scriptures, or etc.. Bring your scripture over that challenge my point and let's have a real discussion.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #181256
08/03/16 02:04 PM
08/03/16 02:04 PM
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kland  Offline
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Elle, who brought up the 1000 years as an off-topic for this thread? And I and many others have confronted your non-scriptural views for years.

Would you say your beliefs match more the Church of God than SDA?

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: kland] #181259
08/04/16 02:21 AM
08/04/16 02:21 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, who brought up the 1000 years as an off-topic for this thread? And I and many others have confronted your non-scriptural views for years.

You must be tired and your mind might be a little sleepy. Actually you are the one that brought the [gold] "pavement" thingy comment to pay the debt.

Post # 181102 - 07/21/16
Originally Posted By: kland
Hey, how about going into debt to buy pavement? If enough people do that, the scheme could last a little longer.


This is a referral to our Millennium believes differences. I didn't even brought the Millennium up as a respond to your little pocking. You've been attempting to provoke me with your "gold pavement" comment for the past ....what? 2 or 3 years? Remember according to the law: the one that start the fire is responsible for what it burns down. So you shouldn't be provoking people; because in God's eyes it makes you liable for whatever damages your poke incurred.

Notice the date above. Before that, Alchemy ask about if I believe a possible Jubilee would be instituted as a solution :

Post # 180981 - 07/10/16
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Just to touch on one point I would be concerned with; I can't see instituting the Jubilee! Do you?

I replied as many economist has replied -- that I saw it as the only possible solution (well at least part of it). Plus I added to this replied that the Bible have shown 2 types of Jubilee : in the destruction of Egypt and Old Babylon where all the people were set free with the "spoils". There again, I did not mention anything about the Millennium there either. If a Jubilee occur, it will open up the new era (age) in the 7th Millennium like it did at Egypt & Old Babylon destruction.

So no Millennium was mentioned yet (besides your provocative "pavement" comment). Then just 4 days ago you ask this question to me regarding what would change once China & its allies succeeds to bring the gold standard and etc... that we just talked about.

Post #181204 - 07/29/16
Originally Posted By: kland
They would have only so much physical gold. How does it work if they want to spend more than they have?

So I answered your question with my current understanding while in essence I was agreeing with you that China won't have the solution and will have a big financial mess that won't be easy to solve and they will need to revise their plan continually as they get to know God's laws for the solution. My understand is only God has the perfect economic system and solution to the world's problem. See the emphasize in bold below.

Originally Posted By: Elle
There's many entities that plays into this as far as I've been hearing. I don't know what is rumor or factual plans but will list them.

First, there's talks from 4 different sources that the price of gold will be jumped to at least $5000 per oz. ...

Second, there will be a re-evaluation of all currencies in the world. ....

Third, what I understand, not only gold reserve holdings will mark the value of a country, but also their GDP and most likely their natural resources.

All in all, no matter how good, fair, and pure the Chinese and its allies will figure out their new system may be ; it can slowly become corrupt by changing the by-laws or re-interpretating them by men with un-pure motives.

But my hunch is the biggest problem they will encounter immediately after the fall of Mystery Babylon, is that since Mystery Babylon create such an enormous problem; that the solution to it won't be so simple to fix. Plus, since they(most nations' leaders) do not know God's perfect economical system described in the law(even Christian doesn't understand it); I expect that the Chinese & allied nations new system will be lacking in many ways and will be in need of constant revision as the nations learns about God's laws.
...


Above is not merely based on my opinion. No. I don't care about my opinions....I based this "all nations will flow to the mountain of God to learn the law" because that's what I understand Isaiah 2 is prophesying. Then I connected the mountain of God to Dan 2:35 (the little stone that struck the Babylon statue and becomes a great mountain and will filled the whole earth).

So I mention these 2 prophecies to answer YOUR QUESTION. You may not agree with what I said and my understanding of these texts which is fine as I don't agree with your interpretation of many things either. That's how it is in discussion. If you disagree with my understanding of these texts, you should of said where & why...instead of focusing on ME and patronizing me.

Thus, I was not off-topic at all as paying a NATIONAL debt that the current Babylonian DEBT System has incurred is the current situation that we (& the whole world) shortly will find ourselves in and is what this discussion has arrived to.

Originally Posted By: kland
Would you say your beliefs match more the Church of God than SDA?

I have no idea what the Church of God believes in that area. And what does it matter? All Churches has some things right and MANY things wrong including the SDA Church, the Church of God, the Mormones, the Catholics, etc.... So we all have to work on our doctrines, by testing them and bringing them closer to what "thus says the Lord" really says and come to know the true interpretation with the mind of Christ.

The Lord has brought you, Alchemy, dedication, ... and I and the rest of us all in this Church. Ok! For most of us, it wasn't us that brought us into this Church. Just like when we are born into a family. It's not our choices. I believe we have to be a family together and strive to know the Lord and His Word more TOGETHER. These forums has helped me to learn more what scripture says. That's why I like participating because it is beneficial for me.

If you want to stick to your current level of knowledge and you have no desire to know more of the Lord, His truth and His work; then that's fine with me. Maybe you think you know it all like I hear some in the Church saying we have all the truth. I don't know what you think or your situation nor do I want to know for that's your personal business with the Lord. My understanding is there's lots more for us to know about and to be shown. I could be wrong, but I think we will be together as a family for a long long time until the Lord brings us to the next level. Don't ask me what, as I don't know any specifics.

I have not left this Church, nor am I bad mouthing it, nor am I bad mouthing Ellen White, nor any members, nor am I saying to anyone to leave the Church when myself am staying with my family till whenever the Lord's timing because that's what I understand the will of the Lord is for us is to be together; because we are family. I know my beliefs have gone away from the SDA beliefs; but it's not because I was bitter at the Church or I wanted to find faults, or any other reasons as such. It's because of the path the Lord put me when I started in this forum and when He moved me to study all our doctrines more closely from the Bible. I wasn't expecting or trying to come to differ with the Church. It just happened because that's what I understand scripture teaches. I could be wrong and that's why we have discussion together.

I don't think you can find any denomination that believe what I came to discover from Scriptures and especially from the law. I don't know of any myself. No the Church of God doesn't come close. I'm not seeking other denomination or promoting any other denomination doctrines; but just trying to learn what scripture actually says while removing all things that are speculative or not Biblically founded. However, I do go around and read other Christian studies, or perceived revelations, or opinions. And I'm not afraid to read stuff that are NOT SDA. I believe God inspires many people outside the SDA Church as well. Thus I seek God's gems wherever He leads.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Alchemy] #182858
03/21/17 04:00 PM
03/21/17 04:00 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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I would recommend a good book for understanding how the economy works, as there is a lot of economic misinformation in this thread. Thomas Sowell, a black economist, wrote "Basic Economics: A common sense guide to the economy". It is a very good starting point to understand how a free market economy actually works.

Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: ] #182859
03/21/17 04:30 PM
03/21/17 04:30 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
I would recommend a good book for understanding how the economy works, as there is a lot of economic misinformation in this thread. Thomas Sowell, a black economist, wrote "Basic Economics: A common sense guide to the economy". It is a very good starting point to understand how a free market economy actually works.

I appreciate the recommendation. I'll be looking into this as it is something I personally need to understand better. Also, if you know of any good books describing sound business practices, based on biblical principles, for a sole-entrepreneur or within a partnership, or within a co-op -- I would appreciate some recommendation.

Is Mr. Sowell's view have a Biblical perspective? I mean the basic economic terms that we have in our current system today -- does derive from the Biblical economic type. However, it's been tampered with and are used with the wrong spirit which is against the people by putting them into eternal debt. Whereas the Lord had intended that the debt of sin be used for our salvation.


Blessings
Re: Does anyone really know how the economy works now? [Re: Elle] #182860
03/21/17 04:54 PM
03/21/17 04:54 PM
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I don't really know if Thomas Sowell is a Christian. I suspect he might be from some of the things he says in his books, but I cannot say for sure. Like most good economists he sticks purely to how things actually work in the book I recommended. He has actually written a lot of books on several different subjects, and I've read several of them. I will say this for the man: he is honest and dislikes dishonesty. He exposes a lot of it in his books.

As to your other request for books, I don't know of any off the top of my head. There is a good book on the Biblical principles of how money works and how governments manipulate money, Honest Money, it written by a guy by the name of Gary North. He is a Christian, but holds some views of what Christianity should do in the world--he thinks Christians ought to enforce their beliefs through the power of politics--that I find reprehensible, but his book on money is very good. He doesn't get into the parts of his beliefs I find so reprehensible in the book Honest Money. He just lays out the Biblical principles of how money works. I learned a lot from it.

Edit: North's book Honest Money is available as a free download from mises.org.

Last edited by Gary K; 03/21/17 04:55 PM.
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