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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Elle] #180974
07/10/16 03:12 AM
07/10/16 03:12 AM
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Karen Y  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Originally Posted By: Elle

I see the sea beast, the earth beast of Rev 13, the dragon of Rev 12, and the King of the bottomless pit of Rev 9 as all different entities. In the past, I did the same as you by linking many of these as the same. I have reasons to have changed my position.


Though you may think those entities may all be different identities, nevertheless, you may agree that they are the enemies of God's people. The dragon of Rev 12 gave "his power, and his seat, and great authority" (Rev. 13:2) to the beast of Rev. 13.

The fallen star of Rev. 9 depicts Satan, the Devil. (See Luke 10:18). No where in the Scripture indicates as Mohammed is the "angel" (messenger) of the bottomless pit.

If we read the enlarged picture of the beast with seven heads in Rev. 17, we can trace him back to Rev. 13. The beast "ascend out of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 17:8) is not Mohammed. This beast must carry the harlot of Rev. 17:3-5 according to the Scripture. And he enforces all the world to receive the mark of the beast. If he has that much power to control the world, I believe we can say he has "the key of the bottomless pit" who "ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 11:7) and he "shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them" (Rev. 11:7).

The "key" indicate a knowledge of teaching (Luke 11:52). "To him (the beast) was given the key of the bottomless pit" (Rev. 9:1). So he teaches "doctrines of man" and "tradition" (Mark 7:7, 13) who "take away the key of knowledge...enter not in...them that were entering in ye hindered" (Luke 11:52).

The beast is emissary of the fallen angel. The beast is the king/angel of the bottomless pit according to Rev. 9:11.

Originally Posted By: Elle
You know the reformers once they had the printed Bible in their hand; saw and interpretated the book of revelation historically. Meaning the book of revelation is a historical account of events of Christianity in the Western world starting from the time of Pentecost after Jesus death to His 2nd coming with a brief glimpse of the Great White throne and the end.


The science of redemption is so broad, so deep, so high. Human history sinks into insignificance. Any attempts to approach the way of salvation with human history is as chaff. 

Would we measure the vast heavens with the span of our hand? Can we measure the eternal redemption of God with the history of mankind? No, it’s impossible. To try is hopeless. The glorious plan of salvation in the sanctuary is the template to interpreting the Seven Trumpets!

With that said, I do not think anyone without the knowledge of sanctuary can possible come to an understanding of the Seven trumpets message. Especially people who does not have understanding of Jesus' madiatorial ministry in the Most Holy Place in heaven now.

Originally Posted By: Elle
It is only when Darby and Scofield in the 1800s with their dispensationalism studies that the book of Revelation was interpretated futuristically.


The knowledge of the close of probation is in the Seven Trumpets of Revelation. In this sense I hold its significance as present and future idea. Did Darby and Scofield have had any comprehension of the knowledge of sanctuary and the close of probation?


Originally Posted By: Elle
For example, Rev 9, the 5th trumpet is about the rise of Mohammed who claim to have ascended to heaven, spoke to God, and returned on earth to give the people the Koran. His rise was in the year 612 just to place the 5th trumpet in context of history. Mohammed is the "angel" (messenger) who was given the "keys of the abyss"(authority and power) that brought smoke(darkness via his revelation from heaven) into the world that from that smoke "locust"(not literal locust but warriors see Joel 2:3-11) came out of it and devastated the land symbolically like real locust does. So this is an example of the potential symbolical meaning of Revelation. Historically, we now know of Islam had a great impact in the world after the rise of Mohammed.


In the Book of Revelation, smoke depicts the prayers of saints. Rev. 5:8 says, "golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints." The prayers must ascend to the throne of God which mixes with Jesus' sweet incense (See Rev. 8:3-5). However, the beast snatched the prayers of the people, which caused air and sun darken. Just like Absalom stole hearts of people from his father king David. (See 1 Sam15:6).

The seal of God in the forehead mentioned in Rev. 7:2, 3 and 9:4. These correlation give clues that the issue of the 5th trumpet is Sabbath. The angel of the bottomless pit attacks who does not have the seal of God by strong delusion, which described in Rev. 9:7-10. Their agenda is to enforce the mark of the beast, the counterfeit of God's true Sabbath. So "if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead...the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (Rev. 14:9, 10).

Reasonably, the seat of the beast receives the wrath of God at the fifth plague. (See Rev. 16:10, 11). Obviously, the imagery of the fifth plague reflects the warning of the fifth trumpet. Their kingdom became full of darkness because they interfered the prayers of people that caused air and sun darken. The seat of the beast "gnawed their tongues for pain" and "repented not of their deeds" (Rev. 16:10, 11). Their torments are described as "in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them" (Rev. 9:6) in the fifth trumpet.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181010
07/14/16 04:02 AM
07/14/16 04:02 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Who gave the power to the locust-like-creature to strike man for torment?

“It was commanded …not hurt …those men…seal of God in their foreheads” (Rev. 9:4). God commanded this protection for His people.

However, God did not give the power to the locust-like-creatures to torment mankind. The beast that ascend out of the bottomless pit is symbolically described here as the locust-like-creatures. He received the power from the dragon: “unto them was given power” (Rev. 9:3). The fallen angel is the dragon, Satan, who gave the power to the beast to inflict torment upon mankind. “The dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority” (Rev. 13:2).

“To him” indicates the beast who “was given the key of the bottomless pit” (Rev. 9:1) to torment mankind. No surprise to find that the seat of the beast receives the fifth plague. This correlation is a clue that the fifth trumpet is an announcement of the judgment of God to the wicked and warning to the church for the imminency of the close of probation.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181016
07/15/16 01:50 AM
07/15/16 01:50 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Who is "the seven angels" in Rev. 8:2? When the article "the" is indicated we suppose to already know their identity from the Book of Revelation.

In the Rev. 7:1, four angels are introduced so it does not have "the four angels" until Rev. 9:14; "Loose the four angels".

The seven angels are mentioned nine times in Revelation. Can anyone say we do not know of "the seven angels" in Rev. 8:2? The seven angels are mentioned seven times out of the nine, which are associated with the vials of the seven last plague (Rev. 15:1, 6, 7, 8; 16:1; 17:1; 21:9).

These seven angels are a definite group who pour out the wrath of God when the probation closes. Jesus our High Priest in heaven cast down the ashes to the earth and finishes His mediatorial work. Until then, THE SEVEN ANGELS stood before the throne and watched judgment of God. One thing we are told is that the seven angels just "prepared themselves to sound" but never sounded the trumpets until the casting down of the ashes.

Rev. 15:1 introduces "seven angels" who have "the seven last plagues." Now we have identified who are THE SEVEN ANGELS from this verse. The rest of the times they are referred as "the seven angels".

The seven angels obey God's command to carry out the vials of the seven last plague (Rev. 15:6) when the probation closes at the casting down of ashes. They never sounded the seven trumpets; instead, they poured out the wrath of God.

We know of the seven trumpets message in Rev. 8-11. God's people are to sound the seven trumpets just as three angels' message has to be preached by God's people.
Same imageries are depicted with the three woes of the seven trumpets and the three angels' message by saying, "with loud voice", "flying in the midst of heaven" (Rev. 8:13; 14:6, 7). Irrefutably, people of God has to preach the Seven Trumpets before the close of the probation.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181023
07/15/16 11:55 AM
07/15/16 11:55 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Originally Posted By: Karen Y

One thing we are told is that the seven angels just "prepared themselves to sound" but never sounded the trumpets until the casting down of the ashes.


Correction: One thing we are told is that the seven angels just "prepared themselves to sound" even after the casting down of the ashes: they never sounded the trumpets.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181086
07/21/16 03:00 AM
07/21/16 03:00 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
When Jesus our High Priest cast down ashes upon the earth, the seven angels "which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound" (Rev. 8:6).

The seven angels come "out of the temple, having the seven plagues" (Rev. 15:6) and there was "a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1).

Notice, the seven angels did not performed the sound of the seven trumpets. The great voice from the temple is the voice of God, commanding to the seven angels to pour out the seven plagues.

At the sixth trumpet's sound, there is a voice from the four horns of the golden altar, which is from the temple. So it is the voice God commanding to the four angels to loose their hold, which were "prepared ...to slay the third part of men" (Rev. 9:15).

The seven angels prepared themselves to sound and the four angels prepared to slay the third part of men on earth. These activities occur at the close of probation.

At the close of probation, there "were two hundred thousand thousand" horsemen from heaven—the armies who followed the white horse (Rev. 19:14)—slay the one third of mankind with plagues. This imagery depicts the close of probation and the seven last plagues poured out.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181190
07/29/16 01:25 PM
07/29/16 01:25 PM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Three woes are the announcement of imminent approach of the close of probation. Its domain is spiritual realm.

In the first woe, there is a king who is the angel of the bottomless pit. Satan is never described as a king in Revelation. So the king whose name is Abbadon or Apollyon—means destroyer or destruction—is the leader of the spiritual world.

The beast ascended from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7, 17:8) is Satan's agent or vicegerent. I perceive that the beast is the angel of the bottomless pit whose destructive activities are warned in the first woe.

The beast that ascended from the bottomless pit is preventing people to receive the seal of God. Instead, he enforces the mark of the beast. Apocalyptic annihilation of mankind will be performed by the power of the beast. But there is a command that "they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree (depict mankind); but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4).

It takes time to destroy mankind by the means of "miracles" (Rev. 13:14, 19:20). The powers of the beast bites like "scorpions of the earth" (Rev. 9:3). It also takes time to seal God's people in the last days. The sealing time is way overdue! The approximate time, which is conditional, is given for five months or prophetic 150 years.

I am so convinced that the first woe is announcement of the close of probation. We realize this truth of the Seven Trumpets which all signify the imminent approaching of the close of probation. The end is nearly here! Let the sound of the trumpets ring!

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181222
07/30/16 01:53 PM
07/30/16 01:53 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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Active Member 2020

4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Hi Karen:

I agree with your statement:
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
We know of the seven trumpets message in Rev. 8-11. God's people are to sound the seven trumpets just as three angels' message has to be preached by God's people. Same imageries are depicted with the three woes of the seven trumpets and the three angels' message by saying, "with loud voice", "flying in the midst of heaven" (Rev. 8:13; 14:6, 7). Irrefutably, people of God has to preach the Seven Trumpets before the close of the probation.
This is an important point for the five wise virgins to take in and comprehend because when they wake up at midnight, this will be part of their message: "Behold the bridegroom cometh. Go you out to meet Him." It will blend and harmonize with the Loud Cry of the angel of Revelation 18 and all three angels of Revelation 14.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181226
07/30/16 02:48 PM
07/30/16 02:48 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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4500+ Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Thanks for sharing Karen this important message that you posted yesterday, July 29, post 181190. I've highlighted parts of what you wrote below but just before that I've quoted from Ellen White to place this message of the three woes in context. This is a current message but it will be giving in power by the five virgins in the near future during the time of God's destructive judgments. It's not your message or mine but the Lord's.

Quote:
There are many with whom the Spirit of God is striving. The time of God's destructive judgments is the time of mercy for those who [now] have no opportunity to learn what is truth. Tenderly will the Lord look upon them. His heart of mercy is touched, His hand is still stretched out to save, while the door is closed to those who would not enter. Large numbers will be admitted who in these last days hear the truth for the first time.--Letter 103, 1903. {LDE 182.2}


Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Three woes are the announcement of imminent approach of the close of probation. Its domain is spiritual realm.

In the first woe, there is a king who is the angel of the bottomless pit. Satan is never described as a king in Revelation. So the king whose name is Abbadon or Apollyon—means destroyer or destruction—is the leader of the spiritual world.

The beast ascended from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7, 17:8) is Satan's agent or vicegerent. I perceive that the beast is the angel of the bottomless pit whose destructive activities are warned in the first woe.

The beast that ascended from the bottomless pit is preventing people to receive the seal of God. Instead, he enforces the mark of the beast. Apocalyptic annihilation of mankind will be performed by the power of the beast. But there is a command that "they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree (depict mankind); but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads" (Rev. 9:4). . . .

I am so convinced that the first woe is announcement of the close of probation. We realize this truth of the Seven Trumpets which all signify the imminent approaching of the close of probation. The end is nearly here! Let the sound of the trumpets ring!

[b][/b]

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181233
07/31/16 03:05 AM
07/31/16 03:05 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Hi Mark,
I'm praising God for your understanding about the seven trumpets.

The seven angels in Revelation have association exclusively with the seven trumpets—twice only— and the vials of the seven plagues—seven times.

The judgment of the seven trumpets is not recapitulation of the seven seals but has strong case for a link to the seven plagues, which clearly indicate of the imminent close of probation.

There are three factors that the seven angels' trumpet are not their job duty to sound:
1. the seven trumpets are given to the seven angels but they never sounded by them.
2. the parallelism with the three angels message—"angel flying in the midst of heaven" "with loud voice"—indicate it is the duty of the God's people.
3. "snapshot" of the High Priest, Jesus, assures His intercession ministry while the seven trumpets' message go out to the world.

I like your comment about the wise virgin story:
Quote:
This is an important point for the five wise virgins to take in and comprehend because when they wake up at midnight, this will be part of their message: "Behold the bridegroom cometh. Go you out to meet Him." It will blend and harmonize with the Loud Cry of the angel of Revelation 18 and all three angels of Revelation 14.


Blessings,

Karen

Last edited by Karen Y; 07/31/16 03:09 AM.
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #181267
08/08/16 03:10 AM
08/08/16 03:10 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Rev. 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit"

Notice the two statements in the verse. Even though they are sitting next to each other it is telling us two different identities:
1). A star fall from heaven
2). He who received the key of the bottomless pit

The dragon is the star fall from heaven and he was cast down to the earth. Jesus mentioned that Satan fell from heaven in Luke 10:18.

He who received the key of the bottomless pit is called a king and is also known as the angel of the bottomless pit. The beast ascended from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11:7, 17:8), which indicate that the angel of the bottomless pit is the one and the same identity.

There is another clue that the beast is called a king in Rev. 17:9,10: "The seven heads are seven mountains" And there are "seven kings". Each head is a king. The seven mountains are the seven heads who carry the harlot of Rev. 17. These seven heads are the counterpart of the seven churches.

Thus the fifth trumpet sound is about the activities of the Papacy, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abandon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon, which means destruction and destroyer.

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