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Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Green Cochoa] #181082
07/20/16 11:40 AM
07/20/16 11:40 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
In 1883, Mrs. White published the following:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
To make rolls, use soft water and milk, or a little cream; make a stiff dough, and knead it as for crackers. Bake on the grate of the oven. These are sweet and delicious. They require thorough mastication, which is a benefit both to the teeth and the stomach. They make good blood, and impart strength. With such bread, and the abundant fruits, vegetables, and grains with which our country abounds, no greater luxuries should be desired. {RH, May 8, 1883 par. 6}


The following statement was published in 1890.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Fruits, grains, and vegetables, prepared in a simple way, free from spice and grease of all kinds, make, with milk or cream, the most healthful diet. They impart nourishment to the body, and give a power of endurance and a vigor of intellect that are not produced by a stimulating diet. {CTBH 47.1}


In 1897-1898 it was adjusted slightly and republished as:

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Fruits, grains, and vegetables, prepared in a simple way, free from spice and grease of all kinds, make, with milk and cream, the most healthful diet. They impart nourishment to the body, and give a power of endurance and vigor of intellect that are not produced by a stimulating diet.--C. T., p. 47. {HL 78.6}

[Underlining added to show a significant change.]

Clearly, Mrs. White viewed milk and cream as part of a healthful diet. This did not change. What is changing is the health of animals. Many people today can still obtain milk and eggs from healthy animals. America may be less privileged in that area than some countries. Mrs. White would likely have advocated in our day against eating raw cabbage, unless it had come from a known sanitary source. She might have recommended blanching all cabbage or Brussels sprouts to reduce the risk of e coli. Most bacterial outbreaks in the news of late have been with our vegetables. Should we give up vegetables because "it is clearly no longer safe and God is telling us to do so"? I think not. Mrs. White makes clear that we are to give up milk and eggs when God tells us to.

Dr. Kress ate eggs to his dying day. They are what gave him his longevity, and were a prescription from God. God never told him to give them up. That being the case, why did Mrs. White write to him that when it is time to give them up, God Himself would reveal it? Did she not rather write this for our benefit?

Be a Berean. He that hath an ear, let him hear.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


This was true in her day, but, she warns that it will not always be that way. And that is my point. These days, we know that food is being polluted and genetically altered so that we can't trust what is provided for us in the grocery stores. Dairy products are among those items we need need to beware of.

Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Green Cochoa] #181131
07/23/16 12:35 PM
07/23/16 12:35 PM
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I'm sure you know that B12 does not come from meat. It is actually from the bacteria that is in the meat. Our current society of scrub, clean, sterilize etc. causes more of a problem with B12 than in Ellen White's day. If you grow you own organic food, you can just walk in the garden, pull a carrot, brush off the dirt and eat it. Many folks are afraid of dirt and with good reason if you don't grow your own food organically.

Last edited by daylily; 07/23/16 12:36 PM.
Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: daylily] #181134
07/23/16 02:20 PM
07/23/16 02:20 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: daylily
I'm sure you know that B12 does not come from meat. It is actually from the bacteria that is in the meat. Our current society of scrub, clean, sterilize etc. causes more of a problem with B12 than in Ellen White's day. If you grow you own organic food, you can just walk in the garden, pull a carrot, brush off the dirt and eat it. Many folks are afraid of dirt and with good reason if you don't grow your own food organically.


Excellent post daylily.

My understanding is that B12 is formed from bacteria in human mouths as well as animals. It is rather difficult to get the B12 from our mouth into the blood stream, but, we don't need any flesh food or dairy products to all the B12 we need.

Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Alchemy] #181187
07/28/16 11:15 PM
07/28/16 11:15 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: daylily
I'm sure you know that B12 does not come from meat. It is actually from the bacteria that is in the meat. Our current society of scrub, clean, sterilize etc. causes more of a problem with B12 than in Ellen White's day. If you grow you own organic food, you can just walk in the garden, pull a carrot, brush off the dirt and eat it. Many folks are afraid of dirt and with good reason if you don't grow your own food organically.


This is misleading. Animals absorb B12 from the bacteria such that it is indeed in the meat. Bacteria do make B12. Animals do not make B12. Those facts remain. However, if one were to remove all bacteria from the meat, and then eat the meat, there is still B12 in it. There is also B12 in milk and in eggs, without needing to eat these as yogurt or with salmonella. There is no scientific evidence beyond a theory or supposition that supports the concept of obtaining B12 from eating dirt.

Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Excellent post daylily.

My understanding is that B12 is formed from bacteria in human mouths as well as animals. It is rather difficult to get the B12 from our mouth into the blood stream, but, we don't need any flesh food or dairy products to all the B12 we need.


You might get some B12 from that bacteria in your mouth if you are not brushing your teeth. How much is questionable. Few people, even among meat eaters, have sufficient B12. B12 cannot be absorbed by the body just because it is present in the diet. It requires a special enzyme called "intrinsic factor." Intrinsic factor used to be thought to be closely related to stomach acid production. It is now known to be a more complex situation than this. Intrinsic factor is actually a tube-shaped molecule that wraps itself around the B12 vitamin, creating a package that can then essentially "inject" the B12 through the lining of the intestinal wall in the small intestine. Without intrinsic factor, you can have as much B12 in your diet as you wish and yet none of it will be absorbed or utilized. Humans likely create more than enough B12 in the colon, but none of it is absorbed or used--it simply exits the body. Some animals consume part of their own feces to obtain B12--I'm thankful to not be among them.

Mrs. White tells us that a very small minority of people can obtain all they need without milk and eggs. There are some, then, who can. I am among the great majority who cannot.

If you take supplements, which I have also tried and it did not work in my case (IM cyanocobalamin), you may be able to replace the milk and eggs--if you feel this is necessary. There are other properties in eggs that Mrs. White tells us counteract poisons. While she does not specify which ones, it is almost certain that sulfur is one of those. Ounce for ounce, an egg has eight times as much sulfur as garlic--the highest vegan source of sulfur. Most vegans do not sit down to a bowl of mashed garlic for lunch, and eat it rather sparingly. Therefore, vegans tend to have greater problems with toxicities, lacking the sulfur to help purge out the toxins.

Your statement that "we don't need any flesh food or dairy products to all the B12 we need" appears to go against Mrs. White's balanced wisdom on the matter. Milk and eggs are not a magic pill. They have their downsides. We will not find eternal life until we eat of the Tree of Life. However, given our present condition and situation in a sin-contaminated world, milk and eggs provide some essentials that cannot be found in adequate supply in a diet without them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Green Cochoa] #181191
07/29/16 02:31 PM
07/29/16 02:31 PM
APL  Offline
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Virus in cattle linked to human breast cancer

The above study from UC Berkeley shows that the largest signal in the association of breast cancer is Bovine Leukemia Virus. Shall we conclude that dairy today is benign? Green will tell us that, ignoring the facts that the dairy industry has no resemblance to that of EGW's time.

Here is a rational commentary on the current situation of dairy products.



And do note DayLily, read the words of Ellen White for yourself to get the true import of her comments, don't trust Green or me on this.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Green Cochoa] #181192
07/29/16 03:12 PM
07/29/16 03:12 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
However, if one were to remove all bacteria from the meat, and then eat the meat, there is still B12 in it.
Why are you saying this? Daylily didn't mention anything about removing all the bacteria from the meat. That would be like removing all the bacteria from us and then thinking the B12 inside us magically disappeared.

Quote:
There is also B12 in milk and in eggs, without needing to eat these as yogurt or with salmonella.
But as pointed out before, you are not getting enough B12 from the egg you are eating. You will then say that Ellen White says we get all we need from eggs, implying there's enough B12 in 1 egg. To which I say:

So, according to similar Green-logic, we can get all the fiber we need from eating one egg a day! In fact all vitamins, minerals, anything we need for healthy bodies are received by eating one egg a day. Ellen White said so (By twisting, implying, and conjecturing).

Quote:
Mrs. White tells us that a very small minority of people can obtain all they need without milk and eggs. There are some, then, who can. I am among the great majority who cannot.

I wonder why she said the following if only a few could? Hmmmm.

The diet reform should be progressive. As disease in animals increases, the use of milk and eggs will become more and more unsafe. An effort should be made to supply their place with other things that are healthful and inexpensive. The people everywhere should be taught how to cook without milk and eggs, so far as possible, and yet have their food wholesome and palatable. {CCh 225.4}


And is that "cannot" or "will not"? She does say that there are a few who cannot. But that shouldn't be a rule nor be taught to the rest of us.

Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Green Cochoa] #181195
07/29/16 03:55 PM
07/29/16 03:55 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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I just did an interesting, specialized search on Ellen White. I searched ONLY her original BOOKS--no compilations, no periodicals, no books that came out long after her death. I looked at all of the references to "milk OR cream." I then classified each statement as:

Positive: 50
Negative: 4
Neutral: 9

I would say the positives are clear. The line between neutral and negative is a little fuzzier, and more subjective. For example, she speaks of "milk and sugar" in "large amounts" as being worse than eating meat. But how does one count this relative to the milk itself? I went neutral on those statements, as the sugar obviously takes more of the blame, especially given that Mrs. White is so positive about milk elsewhere.

Here are some nice samples from her pen:

I would advise all to take something warm into the stomach every morning at least . . . while the gruel is hot, add milk. This will make a most palatable and healthful dish for the campground. . . . Another very simple yet wholesome dish is beans boiled or baked. Dilute a portion of them with water, add milk or cream, and make a broth; the bread can be used as in graham gruel. {2T 603.1}

. . . A moderate amount of milk and sugar, and a little salt, white bread raised with yeast for a change, graham flour prepared in a variety of ways by other hands than her own, plain cake with raisins, rice pudding with raisins, prunes, and figs, occasionally, and many other dishes I might mention, would have answered the demand of appetite. If he could not obtain some of these things, a little domestic wine would have done her no injury; it would have been better for her to have it than to do without it. In some cases, even a small amount of the least hurtful meat would do less injury than to suffer strong cravings for it. {2T 383.4}

. . . We have no meat, cake, or any rich food upon our table. We use no lard, but in its place, milk, cream, and some butter. We have our food prepared with but little salt, and have dispensed with spices of all kinds. We breakfast at seven, and take our dinner at one. It is seldom I have a faint feeling. My appetite is satisfied. My food is eaten with a greater relish than ever before. {4aSG 153.3}

Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence have become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought into disrepute. The work that we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required, and the energies of the church are crippled. But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring the rich and poor together at the feet of Jesus. {9T 162.2}

. . . Vegetables should be made palatable with a little milk or cream, or something equivalent. {9T 161.4}


Here is a statement that could perhaps be taken positively, negatively, or neutral--depending on one's perspective.

The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but it is not necessary to bring upon ourselves perplexity by premature and extreme restrictions. Wait until the circumstances demand it and the Lord prepares the way for it. {9T 162.3}

Notice that "we may have to." In other words, we would rather NOT. It would be better if we did not "have to." That sees it in the positive. To see it as a negative, one must assume we have already crossed the line. To see it as neutral, one simply combines both perspectives. But she is clear that God will reveal when it is time to give up milk and eggs. (See my next post.) He hasn't revealed this to me yet. Has He revealed it to you? if so, how? by your own self-reached conclusions/opinions? or by a clear "word behind" you saying "this is the way, walk ye in it"?


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Green Cochoa] #181196
07/29/16 04:09 PM
07/29/16 04:09 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline OP
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Now, for the hard-core statement of truth that should speak decisively to all balanced individuals on this topic.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The time will come when we may have to discard some of the articles of diet we now use, such as milk and cream and eggs; but my message is that you must not bring yourself to a time of trouble beforehand, and thus afflict yourself with death. Wait till the Lord prepares the way before you. {TSDF 49.8}

The reforms that are strained to the highest tension might accommodate a certain class, who can obtain all they need to take the place of the things discarded; but this class forms a very small minority of the people to whom these tests seem unnecessary. There are those who try to abstain from what is declared to be harmful. They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought to disrepute. The work we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required. The energies of the church are crippled. {TSDF 49.9}

But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too-strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring the rich and the poor together at the feet of Jesus. {TSDF 49.10}

But I wish to say that when the time comes that it is no longer safe to use milk, cream, butter and eggs, God will reveal this. No extremes in health reform are to be advocated. The question of using milk and butter and eggs will work out its own problem. At present we have no burden on this line. Let your moderation be known unto all men. {TSDF 49.11}


It is clear in the above that "a very small minority" of the people can discard milk and eggs and still do fine. Such a diet can "accommodate" them, in Mrs. White's words. That leaves the very large majority who need milk and eggs. I, being oblivious at the time to this statement, found out the hard way.

Note also that the context of her statement about "what is declared to be harmful" obviously does not include Mrs. White's saying so. She is very supportive of the benefits of both milk and eggs in her writings. She says they may become unsafe to use at some point, but that God will reveal it--not that people will declare it. The next statement after this sentence proves that the milk and the eggs were not considered by her to be harmful at all, even though some might make such a declaration, for she says "They fail to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence become weak and unable to work." That is the result of giving up the milk and eggs before God has told us to do so.

Yes, Mrs. White teaches that we should give instructions to all in how to cook without milk and eggs in preparation for the time when we may have to give them up. She also says that "the doctrine of dispensing with them should not be taught." Unless one wishes to believe she contradicted herself, then, we must accept that there is a fine line between teaching how to cook and teaching what to eat.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Green Cochoa] #181197
07/29/16 04:10 PM
07/29/16 04:10 PM
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kland  Offline
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By the way, could you show your results ordered and with date written by each? Would that make a difference?

Quote:
Some, in abstaining from milk, eggs, and butter, have failed to supply the system with proper nourishment, and as a consequence have become weak and unable to work. Thus health reform is brought into disrepute. The work that we have tried to build up solidly is confused with strange things that God has not required, and the energies of the church are crippled. But God will interfere to prevent the results of these too strenuous ideas. The gospel is to harmonize the sinful race. It is to bring the rich and poor together at the feet of Jesus. {9T 162.2}

What does that mean to you? (This is not a solicitation of a multi-page post but only of an answer). Could there be another way of understanding what she said? Could that indicate that some you count as "positive", someone else may count as "negative"?

Re: More vegans in the news . . . [Re: Green Cochoa] #181198
07/29/16 04:30 PM
07/29/16 04:30 PM
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kland  Offline
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"who can obtain all they need to take the place of the things discarded;"

Keyword: "who can obtain".

Who, today, cannot obtain?

When Ellen White wrote that, how many grocery stores with fresh produce were available?

When Ellen White wrote that, how many people had easy access to go to them?

When Ellen White wrote that, how many people had refrigerators?


As far as there coming a time, is incubating avian flu in eggs not a red flag? Is Salmonella outbreak in Australia not a red flag? Does a recall of half a billion eggs not suggest the time may be near? Does the FDA saying 79,000 are sickened from eggs annually not send up a red flag? When asked before, you refused to say what would be a sign for you. Do you have one now? Otherwise, it comes across as being impossible for you to know when it's time to give up eggs.


(Really, should be taught how to cook but not eat it?)

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