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Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 #181519
10/01/16 05:59 PM
10/01/16 05:59 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Sabbath, September 17, 2016 I came across this statement below by Ellen White which was released for the first time in July of 2015. In the last two weeks I've shared this find with some of the leading officers, pastors and laymen of the church. This prediction, part of last year's comprehensive release from the White Estate, has never been published and is nestled in among the 50,000 pages released so it's hard to say how many are aware of it now but probably very few. Her statement struck me with full force partly because just the day before I thought I should download the entire 9 volumes of the Testimonies in MP3 format (audio recordings) and so I did. Here Ellen White is writing to G.I. Butler who at this time was in denial of her testimony. The sobering truth she prophesies here is that the Testimonies will one day be rejected by God's people.

Quote:
I am now of the opinion that the Testimonies will not live among God’s people. They will be removed. I have some light on this point but cannot now give it. Said Christ, “I have many things to say unto you but ye cannot bear them now.” {Lt16-1875}


In her later writings she makes statements warning that this is entirely possible but none of her other statements are so direct as to plainly say that it will happen. This statement, of course, doesn't mean it is inevitable, but only that God, knowing the futures sees the choice that the church will make.

The Testimonies explain and recommend themselves so it would be out of place for me to write a commentary on the topic. Instead, below in the following post(s) are excerpts from other testimonies on the same subject. The first one was written to the church at Battle Creek, many of whom like Elder Butler, were in denial at this point regarding the Testimonies. Originally this testimony was numbered 31 and was titled “The Testimonies Rejected”. It was renamed “The Testimonies Slighted” when it was republished in Testimonies Vol 5. As you read the following quote, notice the hopeful outcome she describes as she concludes.

Last edited by Daryl; 07/29/18 08:42 PM. Reason: Topic Title change only.
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Charity] #181520
10/01/16 06:02 PM
10/01/16 06:02 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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From 5T, The Testimonies Slighted:
Quote:

What voice will you acknowledge as the voice of God? What power has the Lord in reserve to correct your errors, and show you your course as it is? What power to work in the church? You have, by your own course, closed every avenue whereby the Lord would reach you. Will he raise one from the dead to speak to you? . . .

The man whom God is leading will be dissatisfied with himself because the light from the perfect Man shines upon him. But those who lose sight of the Pattern, and place an undue estimate upon themselves, will see faults to criticise in others, they will be sharp, suspicious, condemnatory, they will be tearing others down to build themselves up. . . .

I bear to you the testimony of the Lord. All will hear his voice who are willing to be corrected; but those who have been deceived by the enemy are not willing now to come to the light, lest their deeds shall be reproved. Many of you cannot discern the work and presence of God. You know not that it is he. The Lord is still gracious, willing to pardon all who turn to him with penitence and faith. Said the Lord,--Many know not at what they stumble. They heed not the voice of God, but follow the sight of their own eyes, and the understanding of their own hearts. Unbelief and skepticism have taken the place of faith. They have forsaken me.

I have been shown that the spirit of the world is fast leavening the church. You are following the same path as did ancient Israel. There is the same falling away from your holy calling as God's peculiar people. You are having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. Your concord with unbelievers has provoked the Lord's displeasure. You know not the things that belong to your peace, and they are fast being hid from your eyes. Your neglect to follow the light will place you in a more unfavorable position than the Jews upon whom Christ pronounced a woe. . . .

I have been shown that unbelief in the testimonies has been steadily increasing as the people backslide from God. It is all through our ranks, all over the field. But few know what our churches are to experience. I saw that at present we are under divine forbearance; but no one can say how long this will continue. No one knows how great the mercy that has been exercised toward us. But few are heartily devoted to God. There are only a few who, like the stars in a tempestuous night, shine here and there among the clouds.

Many of our people are lukewarm. They occupy the position of Meroz, neither for nor against, neither cold nor hot. They hear the words of Christ, but do them not. If they remain in this state, he will reject them with abhorrence.

The patience of God has an object, but you are defeating it. He is allowing a state of things to come that you would fain see counteracted by and by, but it will be too late. God commanded Elijah to anoint the cruel and deceitful Hazael king over Syria, that he might be a scourge to idolatrous Israel. Who knows whether God will not give you up to the deceptions you love? Who knows but that the preachers who are faithful, firm, and true may be the last who shall offer the gospel of peace to our unthankful churches? It may be that the destroyers are already training under the hand of Satan and only wait the departure of a few more standard-bearers to take their places, and with the voice of the false prophet cry, Peace, peace, when the Lord hath not spoken peace. I seldom weep, but now I find my eyes blinded with tears; they are falling upon my paper as I write. It may be that ere long all prophesyings among us will be at an end, and the voice which has stirred the people may no longer disturb their carnal slumbers.

When God shall work his strange work on the earth, when holy hands bear the ark no longer, woe will be upon the people. Oh, that thou hadst known, even thou, in this thy day, the things that belong unto the peace. Oh, that our people may, as did Nineveh, repent with all their might and believe with all their heart, that God may turn away his fierce anger from them. . . .

There are men among us in responsible positions who hold that the opinions of a few conceited philosophers, so-called, are more to be trusted than the truth of the Bible, or the testimonies of the Holy Spirit. Such a faith as that of Paul, Peter, or John, is considered old-fashioned, and insufferable at the present day. It is pronounced absurd, mystical, and unworthy of an intelligent mind.

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Charity] #181521
10/01/16 06:03 PM
10/01/16 06:03 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Continuing in T5:
Quote:


God has shown me that these men are Hazaels to prove a scourge to our people. They are wise above what is written. This unbelief of the very truths of God's word because human judgment cannot comprehend the mysteries of his work, is found in every district, in all ranks of society. . . I know that many think far too favorably of the present time. These ease-loving souls will be engulfed in the general ruin. Yet we do not despair. We have been inclined to think that where there are no faithful ministers, there can be no true Christians; but this is not the case. God has promised that where the shepherds are not true he will take charge of the flock himself. God has never made the flock wholly dependent upon human instrumentalities. But the days of purification of the church are hastening on apace. God will have a people pure and true. In the mighty sifting soon to take place, we shall be better able to measure the strength of Israel. The signs reveal that the time is near when the Lord will manifest that his fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor.

The days are fast approaching when there will be great perplexity and confusion. Satan, clothed in angel robes, will deceive, if possible, the very elect. There will be gods many and lords many. Every wind of doctrine will be blowing. . . The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. . . But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the day-time we look toward heaven, but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine lustre.

The time is not far distant when the test will come to every soul. The mark of the beast will be urged upon us. Those who have step by step yielded to worldly demands, and conformed to worldly customs, will not find it a hard matter to yield to the powers that be, rather than subject themselves to derision, insult, threatened imprisonment, and death. The contest is between the commandments of God and the commandments of men. In this time, the gold will be separated from the dross in the church. True godliness will be clearly distinguished from the appearance and tinsel of it. Many a star that we have admired for its brilliancy, will then go out in darkness. . . .

When trees without fruit are cut down as cumberers of the ground, when multitudes of false brethren are distinguished from the true, then the hidden ones will be revealed to view, and with hosannas range under the banner of Christ. Those who have been timid and self-distrustful, will declare themselves openly for Christ and his truth. The most weak and hesitating in the church, will be as David--willing to do and dare. The deeper the night for God's people, the more brilliant the stars. Satan will sorely harass the faithful, but, in the name of Jesus, they will come off more than conquerors. Then will the church of Christ appear "fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners."

God will work a work in our day that but few anticipate. He will raise up and exalt among us those who are taught rather by the unction of his Spirit, than by the outward training of scientific institutions. These facilities are not to be despised or condemned; they are ordained of God, but they can furnish only the exterior qualifications. God will manifest that he is not dependent on learned, self-important mortals.

There are few really consecrated men among us; few who have fought and conquered in the battle with self. Real conversion is a decided change of feelings and motives; it is a virtual taking leave of worldly connections, a hastening from their spiritual atmosphere, a withdrawing from the controlling power of their thoughts, opinions, and influences. The separation causes pain and bitterness to both parties. It is the variance which Christ declares that he came to bring. But the converted will feel a continual longing desire that their friends shall forsake all for Christ, knowing that unless they do, there will be a final and eternal separation. The true Christian cannot while with unbelieving friends, be light, and trifling. The value of the souls for whom Christ died, is too great. . .

The church cannot measure herself by the world nor by the opinion of men nor by what she once was. Her faith and her position in the world as they now are must be compared with what they would have been if her course had been continually onward and upward. The church will be weighed in the balances of the sanctuary. If her moral character and spiritual state do not correspond with the benefits and blessings God has conferred upon her, she will be found wanting. Source: Ellen White, Testimonies Vol. 5, The Testimonies Slighted, Pages 62 – 84.

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Charity] #181522
10/01/16 06:06 PM
10/01/16 06:06 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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The Testimonies are not to be re-interpreted. They are to interpret themselves just as the Bible is to be it's own interpreter. So there should be no committees, no official statements from the White Estate, other than to confirm it's authenticity, and no dissection by the scholars.

As Adventists our mutual obligation to one another is to be good stewards of our finds of truth. This find is like when the priests under Joash found the scroll of the law and realized that Israel was under God's judgment and would be rejected and dispossessed as God had said through Moses unless they repented. What if the priests had been unfaithful and not shared the warning? Aren't we under obligation to share this? Look at what Moses wrote in Deuteronomy 32 and how he riveted in the minds of the men of Israel in the form of a song this warning prophecy that apostasy would indeed occur. This was his parting legacy. Similarly, shouldn't this be made as public as possible to all the citzens of spiritual Israel?

In closing here are two more statements, the first to Uriah Smith and the second to a Brother Garmire, both written in 1890 during the crises following the 1888 General Conference.
Quote:

There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded.-- Letter 40, 1890. {1SM 48.4}

Satan is . . . constantly pressing in the spurious--to lead away from the truth. The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.-- Letter 12, 1890. {1SM 48.3}

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Charity] #181523
10/01/16 11:15 PM
10/01/16 11:15 PM
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Nadi  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick

Quote:
I am now of the opinion that the Testimonies will not live among God’s people. They will be removed. I have some light on this point but cannot now give it. Said Christ, “I have many things to say unto you but ye cannot bear them now.” {Lt16-1875}



Not sure what you mean by "the Testimonies" Do you mean the Old and New Testaments?

Also:
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The Testimonies are not to be re-interpreted. They are to interpret themselves just as the Bible is to be it's own interpreter. So there should be no committees, no official statements from the White Estate, other than to confirm it's authenticity, and no dissection by the scholars.


Does this rule apply to the Bible also?

I must say I am a little confused with some things on this forum.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Charity] #181524
10/02/16 04:01 AM
10/02/16 04:01 AM
dedication  Offline
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Seventh-day Adventists believe in the prophetic gift of Ellen G. White and that the testimonies (which have been printed in ten volumes) as well as her other writings are Divine messages from God given through her for God's people in the last days.


In the last days, scripture tells us, all manner of deceptions will come with false gospels, false Christs, false worship and the whole world (almost) will be deceived.
(See Matt. 24, Luke 21, Rev. 13-14)

The testimonies (totally in agreement with scripture) reveal where the dangerous reefs and deadly rapids are, so God's people can avoid them as they approach the eternal shore.

That's why "Satan is . . . constantly pressing in the spurious--to lead away from the truth. The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18)."
Satan wants as many people as possible to end up shipwrecked on the reefs of deception so they will not reach the blessed shore.


The only problem is these testimonies which were given to clarify, are also being re-interpreted, (just like people do with scripture) they get cut apart and pasted together in ways that completely change the message they originally presented.

A big "Amen" to Mark Shipowick's statement:

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
The Testimonies are not to be re-interpreted. They are to interpret themselves just as the Bible is to be it's own interpreter.


To which we add --- read the messages IN THE CONTEXT in which they were written.

Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Charity] #181530
10/02/16 11:46 AM
10/02/16 11:46 AM
His child  Offline
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Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says. {SpM 167.2}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: His child] #181531
10/02/16 11:56 AM
10/02/16 11:56 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: His child
Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says. {SpM 167.2}

A big Amen to that. We should take note what Ellen said here with other passages of this sort. I think she said these to keep us balance in regards of how to read her writings.

We have become severely unbalanced because we failed to understand and apply the following:

-truth is progressive. We know in part and prophecy in part -- meaning we do not have the whole picture yet nor the whole understanding of how God is working out his laws & prophecies. That applies to all Biblical writers.

All others outside the Biblical writers who receives some revelation needs to understand this basic reality. Anyone who receives a revelation or word from above often will convey the message received to others as best as they can within the context of their own current understanding of "truth" to it. That's fine. As long as we do not treat our current understanding as TRUTH and know how to isolate it from the revelation received from God. For example, words or dreams received from above could be highlighted and bolded to make a distinction from what we think it means.

This is what we do as an error with Ellen White writings. We treat all her writings as coming directly from God, when Ellen was giving the vision or word received in context of her own shorted current understanding of "truth".

-the law is the foundation against we are to test all prophets, teachings, and doctrines.(Is 8:20) The better we understand the law, the better we can understand the Word from scripture; the post revelations, dreams, visions (that often comes from unseasoned believers); and the small voice that we all hear ourselves.

-we are unfamiliar with the Lord language. The Lord speaks in "dark speaches"(riddles, puzzles) that needs to be solved. He use physical elements with rituals or events to describe spiritual realities to come in the Law(Pentateuch) and in the prophecies. Num 11

-nor do we know how the prophecies speaks according to the law : (Is 8:20) In studying these parallel would help us further understand how the Lord applies the law, give us greater revelation of the law, enabling us to better guard it, and better test all manner of doctrines that comes our way.

Last edited by Elle; 10/02/16 02:51 PM.

Blessings
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Elle] #181532
10/02/16 01:02 PM
10/02/16 01:02 PM
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Nadi  Offline
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Well, I think HsChild has the right idea. We should study the Bible more, and see what it is telling us.

John 14:26 says "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (NIV)

And 1 John 2:27 says "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you."

So HisChild's view on this point is Biblical, and I agree with it. I know this is a SDA forum, and you believe in Ellen White, and that's OK for you. But with all the claimants to prophetic insight you hear about now, I just want to stick with the Bible. That one I trust.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold, Part 1 [Re: Nadi] #181533
10/02/16 01:14 PM
10/02/16 01:14 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Well, I think HsChild has the right idea. We should study the Bible more, and see what it is telling us.

John 14:26 says "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." (NIV)

And 1 John 2:27 says "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you."

So HisChild's view on this point is Biblical, and I agree with it. I know this is a SDA forum, and you believe in Ellen White, and that's OK for you. But with all the claimants to prophetic insight you hear about now, I just want to stick with the Bible. That one I trust.

Well said. I agree and you bring up an important point that all understanding or interpretation needs to come from the teachings of the Holy Spirit.

1Jn 2:27 is a promise that Jesus will teach us personally all truths. If we do not go to Jesus to teach us, and depend on the teachings of men, (includes church's teachings) with their "partial understanding" of scriptures like the Jews did with the writings of Moses.... We will NEVER COME TO KNOW THE TRUTH. Moses writings were inspired, however we all need the Holy Spirit to teach us how to read(understand) and apply these according to Jesus intend & mind.

This principle applies to any post Biblical revelation, dreams, or vision received by a well-seasoned prophets in office, or any unseasoned believers, or the signs giving in the historical or current events.

BTW...Welcome to the Forum Nadi!

Last edited by Elle; 10/02/16 01:33 PM.

Blessings
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