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#181937 - 11/18/16 08:47 PM 01 - The Two Gospels - Righteousness by Faith in the End Time - Dennis Priebe
Daryl Online   canada

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This is worth watching and discussing:
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In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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#181942 - 11/19/16 04:02 PM Re: 01 - The Two Gospels - Righteousness by Faith in the End Time - Dennis Priebe [Re: Daryl]
Josh M Offline
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Registered: 08/04/14
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Loc: Colorado, USA
I agree with this presentation. Looking at the first premise of "sin as nature" and an impossibility of perfection in this life prior to death or the second coming we will find many conflicts between this and the Bible.

Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Mat 5:48)

If Jesus tells us to be perfect then we can be perfect. Or else what? If we can't be perfect, yet Jesus tells us to be, isn't there a conflict here? I don't believe that God expects us to reach the unreachable without offering help. I also don't expect that God's help wouldn't be sufficient. Therefor, perfection can be reached. This is not by our own strength, as if we could be perfected without God, but by God empowering us as we apply our will toward this presently reachable goal.

When Jesus told paralytics to stand up and walk, should they have instead said "but I can't stand; I'm paralyzed"? If they had, they never would have walked. Their own statement would have been made fact. Instead, they believed in the power of God to presently heal them and willed their limbs to move. At the same time, God put strength into their muscles. That they didn't wait to be healed first before standing was the kind of faith that justifies. Time after time Jesus made clear that it was their faith that had healed them. In of themselves they had no power to do this, because will alone is powerless without muscles and nerves. They had faith that the command could be obeyed exactly because help would be given. Muscle alone is equally powerless without will, just as "the slothful hideth his hand in his bosom; it grieveth him to bring it again to his mouth." (Pro 26:15) Both must work together for our bodies to do anything, and God doesn't force righteousness on us contrary to our will or wash us clean when we choose sin. In the same way that the command to stand and walk could be obeyed by faith, the command to be perfect can also be obeyed by faith as a matter of divinity and humanity working together.

If there is no perfection in the present world, then sin is inevitable, and Jesus could not have told Mary Magdalene "go, and sin no more" (John 8:11) or a man previously paralyzed by the pool "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." (John 5:14) If there had been no hope of present perfection, they would have responded "but I have to sin more." Enoch also couldn't have walked with God, because "can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amo 3:3)

Sinlessness isn't just a goal that can be reached, but one that must be reached. I don't think we can ever know it has been reached until judgment is passed, and it seems dangerously presumptive to say that it has been reached, but it's an error to teach that it can't be reached.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" (Rom 6:1-2)
"And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as He is pure." (1Jo 3:3)
"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." (2Pe 2:20)
"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1Co 9:24)
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#181944 - 11/20/16 03:03 PM Re: 01 - The Two Gospels - Righteousness by Faith in the End Time - Dennis Priebe [Re: Josh M]
JAK Offline
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Registered: 12/26/09
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Loc: Canada
Josh:

A. I reject Perfection / Perfectionist / Perfectionism Theology in any form.
B. I did not watch the video, and I don't intend to.

Part of the problem with Perfection theology is a lack of commonly understood and accepted definitions of terms, such as
a. perfection; what is meant by this term?
b. sin; what is sin, what is a sin?
c. saved by grace; what exactly does this mean?
d. works; what are works?

In each case above, what you have in mind with each term may be different than what I have in mind. Before we can proceed with any discussion of the topic, we need to understand what the other has in mind when they use the term; we don't need to agree with what it means, just know what the other guy has in mind when they use it.

So, as I understand the terms currently:
1. Perfection is not possible and sin is inevitable.
2. No one will achieve perfection in this world.
3. We do not need perfection, because we are saved by grace. (which is good, because perfection is not possible, which is why we are saved by grace)

So if you want to open this can of worms, go ahead.
_________________________
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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#181945 - 11/21/16 04:14 AM Re: 01 - The Two Gospels - Righteousness by Faith in the End Time - Dennis Priebe [Re: JAK]
Josh M Offline
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Registered: 08/04/14
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Loc: Colorado, USA
Perfection involves unfaltering obedience to God through genuine love for God as well as one another. These two things sum up the whole law, and if this sort of perfection is impossible then the law cannot be kept. Yet in the last days we will see "they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." (Rev 14:12) In other words, they will be perfect in obedience and faith, so that "when He shall appear, we shall be like Him" because "now are we the sons of God". (1Jo 3:2) Not just in the last days, but even now the distinction between the followers of Jesus and the world are that we love Him and keep His commandments.

Because "all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23) we have all been "the servant of sin." (John 8:34) It seemed that we were doomed to continue sinning, except that grace was provided. As Jesus said, "if ye continue in My word, then are ye My disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (Jhn 8:31-32) If continuing to sin, which is "the transgression of the law" (1Jo 3:4), was unavoidable then we would not truly be free.




We are saved by grace, meaning that it's not by our own virtue but absolutely entirely by virtue of the blood of Jesus. It is the offer of Jesus to both bear the punishment for sin on our behalf and to "cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1Jo 1:9) That is the grace given to us.

However, being saved by grace doesn't mean we are free to continue to sin, or else we have not been fully cleansed. A pardon for one crime is not a license to commit another. Throughout the Bible from beginning to end is a call to "flee fornication", "flee from idolatry", "flee also youthful lusts", "But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness." (1Co 6:18, 10:14, 2Ti 2:22, 1Ti 6:11)

"But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." (Eze 18:21) Not some sins and some of the law, but all of both. God has promised not only to cleanse us but also that He "will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments, and do them." (Eze 36:27)

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."(Heb 4:15-16)

Stated here is that Jesus was sinless in the face of all temptation and that we may receive mercy and grace. Mercy for what? Sins already committed. Grace for what? "To help in time of need." What time is this? When we, too, are tempted. There is not a single battle with sin that needs to be lost. If there was, then Jesus would not be a help in every time of need.




Works are the fruit of faith. There is no one who is saved by their works, as if there was another way than Jesus or as if there was no punishment for sin, but there is also no one saved who is without works, as they always accompany living faith.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son," (Heb 11:17)
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" (Jam 2:21)

"By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." (Heb 11:31)
"Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?" (Jam 2:25)


Their faith produced works, by which they were justified. If there had not been works, if they had simply believed but yet did nothing, their belief would have condemned them. In the judgment they would have been asked "if you believed, why did you not obey and why did you resist God?"

Even the thief on the cross who converted shortly before death presented to Jesus the fruit of faith as he preached. In a short sermon of three verses he confirmed before a crowd the just punishment of the wicked, the innocency and messiahship of Jesus, hope in the resurrection, and declared that Jesus could save. It was the gospel in a nutshell and the most unexpected person had suddenly become a preacher with the most unexpected of pulpits.

As said near the end of the video, quoting from a 1974 appeal by church leaders in the Adventist Review, it is we who will vindicate the character of God by being exhibits of what God's grace can do. I think this involves the transformation of character in every true Christian so that sin is overcome.
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#181976 - 11/24/16 11:33 AM Re: 01 - The Two Gospels - Righteousness by Faith in the End Time - Dennis Priebe [Re: Josh M]
JAK Offline
SDA
Active Member 2016
Senior Member
Registered: 12/26/09
Posts: 576
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Josh M
Perfection involves unfaltering obedience to God through genuine love for God as well as one another.

This does not really qualify as a definition of perfection, because I could then ask "What is 'unfaltering obedience' and 'genuine love'?

Does (in your understanding) perfection mean that one no longer sins? At all? not even in thought or emotion? Not even "accidentally?"

What is a practical, working definition of perfection?
_________________________
"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
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