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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #182357
01/20/17 01:17 PM
01/20/17 01:17 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Joined: Dec 2008
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Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Would that be the antitypical Jubilee when Anti-Typical Day of Atonement closes and ushers in the kingdom of God?

In the type, the Jubilee was ushered in at the close of the Day of Atonement. Likewise we understand that the antitypical Jubilee will follow the antitypical Day of Atonement.

I disagree Karen. You are reading into too much and you say things that is not said in scripture. Be careful. My understanding is that they did not have the details of Lev 23 (all the details of the feast and offerings) or Lev 25 and many other laws until they had failed to enter Canaan. God brought them to the door of Canaan shortly after they had came out of Egypt on the first year (or was it the 2nd?).

In the type we find, that the Lord had succeeded to bring Israel out of Egypt, baptize then in the Red see. That was the Passover TYPE that was fulfilled corporately by the Church at that TIME. Then when Pentecost TIME came around 50 days after the wave sheave..... the corporate Church of the TIME, did NOT enter PENTECOST --- meaning if you read Ex 19 & 20 describing that PENTECOST event.... they rejected hearing the voice of God for themselves. Pentecost was only fulfill Corporately by the Church over 2000 years after when Jesus came & died.

Now when the fall feasts came around, the Lord sent spies in Canaan before entering. You know the story, the church of the time believed the 10 evils report instead of the faith report of Joshua and Caleb. That day, was a day of decision -- the 10th day of the 7th month, they were suppose to sound the trumpet of Jubilee and declare a happy Jubilee time in the land, but because of their unbelief (as said in scripture) they turn that day into a day of judgment and sorrow. They did not had enough faith to enter the promise land at the appointed time. The next day, when they realized what had just happened, they changed their mind..... but it was too late. The appointed time had passed.

It's only after they had failed to enter Canaan..... that the Lord gave them the details about the feasts by which we have the Day of Atonement describe in it.

What I see from the TYPE --- The 10th Day of the 7th month is either a Day of Jubilee OR a Day of Judgment. And now another "appointed time" of the Jubilee is coming .... is the Church of today have faith to sound the Trumpet of Jubilee to declare a Jubilee(freeing of the captives) throughout the earth on the 10 day of the 7th month? I believe we will.


Blessings
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #182358
01/20/17 01:49 PM
01/20/17 01:49 PM
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Elle  Offline
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I read this yesterday and I think this might shed some light in understanding the purpose of God's judgment.

I think the very first paragraph is a very insightful point that I had never heard before. Yeah, the Lord needs to coordinate a major repentance at the end of the judgment time.

Quote:
Hosea, prophet of mercy—chapter 41, The Call to Repentance
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.net/d...-to-repentance/

Jan 18, 2017

The purpose of divine judgment is to bring about repentance, not destruction. When the people repent, the judgment ceases. Because of this, it appears that repentance never occurs until the end of the judgment. If God decrees a 40-year judgment, it seems that this means the people will not repent until they have been judged 40 years.

Strangely enough, it is not the beating itself that leads us to repentance, but the goodness and kindness of God. Paul tells us in Romans 2:4, “the kindness of God leads you to repentance.” Under man’s laws (as it is said), beatings continue until morale improves. But God knows that men respond to kindness and love. Hence, divine judgment is not the same as human judgment. Divine judgment is based upon love, which seeks ways to implement mercy. Normally, then, when the sentence of the law nears completion, God begins to intervene with kindness and to draw near by the Holy Spirit. Men call these times “revivals.”

The final chapter of Hosea’s prophecy is about “revival,” which is always a call to repentance, based upon the goodness and kindness of God. Hosea 14:1, 2 begins, saying,

1 Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God, for you have stumbled because of your iniquity. 2 Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to Him, “Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously, that we may present the fruit of our lips.”

This is not a call to return physically to the old land of Israel. It is a call to return to God from one’s heart. The problem is iniquity, not location. The solution is to “take away all iniquity,” not to relocate to the old land, carrying your iniquity with you. Long ago, when the Israelites were few, the model was set up in a tiny strip of land, for that was suitable at the time. But today’s model is much greater, for God claims not only the land of Canaan, but also the entire world.

In Leviticus 25:23 God says, “the land is mine,” speaking of the land of Canaan. But later God claims all lands and all nations by right of creation, saying in Jeremiah 27:5, “I have made the earth… by My outstretched arm… and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight.” So also Isaiah 54:5 says that the Holy One of Israel is “the God of all the earth.”

The Rock of Offense

God’s claim is upon all that He created, not just upon a tiny portion of it. Hence, the old model has been replaced by something much greater. In the old model, Israel “stumbled” on account of iniquity, Hosea says. They stumbled over “the rock of offense” (1 Peter 2:8), “because they are disobedient to the word,” Peter says. In other words, if they had been obedient to the word, they would not have stumbled over the stumbling block, which is Jesus Christ, the Rock.

Paul affirms this as well in Romans 9:31-33,

31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 just as it is written [in Isaiah 28:16], “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

Both Paul and Isaiah were speaking about Israel, whereas most Christians today think he was speaking to the Jews (i.e., Judah). In fact, they assume that Paul’s entire commentary on Israel in Romans 9-11 was about the people of Judah who had rejected Jesus in the first century. But if we look up the passages that Paul quotes, we find that those passages were directed primarily at the northern house of Israel (or Ephraim). Only secondarily did this apply to Judah—and even then, only because Judah was guilty of the same unbelief.

Isaiah 28:16, quoted by Paul in Romans 9:33, was specifically addressed to “the drunkards of Ephraim” (Isaiah 28:1). Hence, to interpret Romans 9-11 as a commentary on the Jews in Jerusalem and Judah is to miss most of Paul’s lesson about Israel’s history. Israel had rejected Jesus Christ long before Jesus was born on earth. They rejected Him, Peter says, when “they were disobedient to the word” that came from Yahweh, who was Jesus in His pre-incarnate form.

In the end, however, all men are called to repent. Iniquity is the inner condition of death (mortality), which causes all men to disobey the word and to stumble over the Rock of Offense. Hosea tells Israel to repent, to hear and obey God’s word, so that they may be restored to a relationship with Him. Years later, the significance of this word was revealed when Jesus was born, for then it became plain that the people were to believe in Him and in His word.

Removing Iniquity by Grace

In Isaiah 53:5 we read,

5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed [or bruised] for our iniquities…

A transgression is an outward action, whereas iniquity is an inward motive or cause. So when Jesus was pierced outwardly, it was to pay for our transgressions. When Jesus was bruised with internal injuries, it was to pay for our iniquities. He did both, of course, because He paid for the entire sin of the world—even its root causes.

So when Hosea 14:2 tells Israel to say to Him, “take away all iniquity,” he was telling Israel to believe that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for their iniquity by His death on the cross. Further, the prophet says to ask Him to “receive us graciously,” for as Paul says in Ephesians 2:8, “by grace you have been saved through faith.” This salvation is “not of yourselves,” Paul says, and in the next verse he adds that it is “not as a result of works.”

In other words, salvation does not come to us through men’s Old Covenant vows, which they have made by the strength of their own will (John 1:13), for no man is capable of fulfilling such vows of perfection. Grace is seen when God vows to make us His people by the power of His own will. We are called to believe in His ability to do as He has vowed, not in our ability to do as we have vowed. These two covenants show us the difference between grace and works.

Removing the iniquity is possible only by removing the death sentence of mortality that was imputed to all men on account of Adam’s sin. When death is removed, iniquity is removed, and then men will cease to transgress the law in their actions. Hence, incorruption and immortality are bound together (1 Corinthians 15:54 KJV).

Hosea 14:2 tells us further that the removal of iniquity by His grace is required for us to “present the fruit of our lips.” The Hebrew word translated “fruit” is from par, “a bull, or young bullock.” Hence, this is referring to a sacrifice. But it is no ordinary sacrifice. It was a sacrifice “of our lips.” This is the true sacrifice that God wants—repentant words that come from the altar of one’s heart.

So the sequence is clear. First, iniquity must be removed as an act of New Covenant grace. Then our response is the sacrifice on the altar of one’s heart, accompanied by words of repentance coming from the lips.

Hosea even puts words into the mouth of such repentant ones, for he continues in Hosea 14:3,

3 “Assyria will not save us. We will not ride on horses; nor will we say again, ‘Our god,’ to the work of our hands; for in Thee the orphan finds mercy.”

Here is the acceptable confession coming from the lips of Israel. It acknowledges that Assyria cannot save us, but only Yahweh-Jesus, the God of Israel and of the whole earth. Such a confession forsakes faith in horses—that is, in fleshly strength, because “their horses are flesh and not spirit” (Isaiah 31:3). And finally, a true confession of faith never again says that the golden calf is “our god.” True faith is never placed in “the work of our hands,” and if we understand this in the light of the New Covenant, we NEVER again say, “I was saved by my vow (or decision) and by my own will.”

Instead, we recognize that it was God who was gracious enough to intervene and to open our eyes and impart faith in our hearts, so that we would repent and turn to Him. We have only responded to the gracious intervention of God and can take no credit for our decision to follow Him. It is the kindness of God that has led us to repentance.

This is the true bullock that God desires as the fruit of our lips. We must confess Jesus Christ, not a golden calf that is the work of our hands.

The Law of Coverings

Hosea says “in You the orphan finds mercy.” This is a reference to the fact that widows, orphans, aliens, and even the beasts and birds of the field are without coverings. Families in Israel normally found protection under a guardian known as the Kinsman Redeemer. This term is normally mistranslated “avenger of blood” or “revenger of blood,” but it is the Redeemer (ga’al) who is of one’s own bloodline. If a family member became the victim of injustice, the Kinsman Redeemer was responsible to rectify the situation in order to protect those under his covering.

Widows and orphans often had no covering, so God Himself became their Redeemer, covering them directly. So Exodus 22:21-24 says,

21 And you shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. 22 You shall not afflict any widow or orphan. 23 If you afflict him at all, and if he does cry out to Me, I will surely hear his cry, 24 and My anger will be kindled, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall become widows and your children fatherless.

All those who are without coverings of men are under God’s direct covering. He will protect all who call upon Him, as the law says. The law specifically mentions “strangers” (that is, foreigners), along with widows and orphans. Hence, if non-Israelites are oppressed by Israelites, the anger of the Lord is kindled against the Israelites who oppress them. But in other places we find that God also protects and provides for the birds and the beasts of the field—all for the same reason. God is their covering.

So Hosea 14:3 says, “in You the orphan finds mercy.”


Blessings
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #182366
01/21/17 06:08 PM
01/21/17 06:08 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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Elle, your thoughts are interesting. You're such a free spirit. Too free maybe? We're all required to bring every thought into captivity to the will of Christ. smile

Let me inject this into the conversation Karen if you don't mind: Earlier in the thread you seemed to lean towards allowing that the trumpets have an important future fulfillment. Now you're backing away from that it seems by saying they were fulfilled long before 1844. You're in good company. All of the Adventist pioneers believed that. But Ellen White makes statements that tell us to also look to a future, literal fulfillment. Adventists are in danger because most are either not aware of her statements or are in denial of their plain meaning.

Elle makes that point that the Feast of Trumpets (not the seven trumpets) is a one day feast, which is correct. Since that is the case, this Feast is not a good parallel or type of the seven trumpets. It is a good candidate for being one of the seven trumpets, the final one, but not for being the fulfillment of all seven of the seven trumpets.

If we want to understand the seven trumpets, (and we all see thought a glass darkly when it comes to unfulfilled prophecy) the siege and destruction of Jericho is the closest match in scripture. There you have the seven days with seven trumpet blasts and the loudest blast that brought down the walls on the seventh day - a close parallel to the seventh trumpet that announces the end of Babylon and the beginning of the reign of Christ.

The silence in heaven that precedes the trumpets is also paralleled in the conquest of Jericho. A half hour of silence in prophetic time is a week of literal time. The Israelites were to be completely silent as they marched for seven days. Then on the seventh day at the sounding of the trumpets, they were to shout.

The timing and circumstances of the conquest should be considered as well. Israel had just crossed the Jordan and began to possess the land. The men had just been circumcised. The first Passover in the Promised Land had just been celebrated. The counting of the Jubilee had just begun, year 1 of the first Jubilee cycle. It was in the spring, and the conquest began either during Unleavened Bread for seven days or right after it. I'm still studying it.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Elle] #182367
01/21/17 07:25 PM
01/21/17 07:25 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: MarkS
Elle, your thoughts are interesting. You're such a free spirit. Too free maybe? We're all required to bring every thought into captivity to the will of Christ.

Mark, you can be a free spirit yourself. That's good and I've always appreciated and benefited from those types of comments of yours.

Concerning, the underlined section above....what do you mean? Where have I not brought "every thought into captivity to the will of Christ". Be specific.

Sorry to make this comment on your post Mark and taking this incident that really doesn't reflect your way of discussion. You do usually support your comment and I've always appreciated that about you.

But this is a repeating problem that I think is absolutely not constructive at all. If someone is going to make such a public comment about someone else, then I think we need to back it up with something specific to where and why we think that is so. I know I would appreciate this kind gesture myself.

Too many in this forum passes abasing comment on others without addressing their error[well what you think their error is] with any Biblical support. You want to make a public comment, be responsible -- back it up with reasons that I think needs to be further backed up with scriptures.

Mark the remaining of your post I thought was insightful. But before I get to it.... I want to know what you meant specifically by that comment. Was it related to this post below?

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Karen Y
Would that be the antitypical Jubilee when Anti-Typical Day of Atonement closes and ushers in the kingdom of God?

In the type, the Jubilee was ushered in at the close of the Day of Atonement. Likewise we understand that the antitypical Jubilee will follow the antitypical Day of Atonement.

I disagree Karen. You are reading into too much and you say things that is not said in scripture. Be careful. My understanding is that they did not have the details of Lev 23 (all the details of the feast and offerings) or Lev 25 and many other laws until they had failed to enter Canaan. God brought them to the door of Canaan shortly after they had came out of Egypt on the first year (or was it the 2nd?).

In the type we find, that the Lord had succeeded to bring Israel out of Egypt, baptize then in the Red see. That was the Passover TYPE that was fulfilled corporately by the Church at that TIME. Then when Pentecost TIME came around 50 days after the wave sheave..... the corporate Church of the TIME, did NOT enter PENTECOST --- meaning if you read Ex 19 & 20 describing that PENTECOST event.... they rejected hearing the voice of God for themselves. Pentecost was only fulfill Corporately by the Church over 2000 years after when Jesus came & died.

Now when the fall feasts came around, the Lord sent spies in Canaan before entering. You know the story, the church of the time believed the 10 evils report instead of the faith report of Joshua and Caleb. That day, was a day of decision -- the 10th day of the 7th month, they were suppose to sound the trumpet of Jubilee and declare a happy Jubilee time in the land, but because of their unbelief (as said in scripture) they turn that day into a day of judgment and sorrow. They did not had enough faith to enter the promise land at the appointed time. The next day, when they realized what had just happened, they changed their mind..... but it was too late. The appointed time had passed.

It's only after they had failed to enter Canaan..... that the Lord gave them the details about the feasts by which we have the Day of Atonement describe in it.

What I see from the TYPE --- The 10th Day of the 7th month is either a Day of Jubilee OR a Day of Judgment. And now another "appointed time" of the Jubilee is coming .... is the Church of today have faith to sound the Trumpet of Jubilee to declare a Jubilee(freeing of the captives) throughout the earth on the 10 day of the 7th month? I believe we will.


Blessings
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Elle] #182368
01/22/17 12:05 AM
01/22/17 12:05 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Elle I didn't have any particular post in mind. It's a trend, and the trend is to pick ideas that you like from inspired sources and reject those that you don't. In the case of Ellen White, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true you think she was partly inspired. And I've seen the same trend with scripture but I don't think you see that you're doing that. That's what I'm referring to by too much of a free spirit. There is great freedom in Christ, the greatest that we can know, but the paradox is that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. In our great freedom, we live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Elle, you know I love you as a brother.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #182369
01/22/17 01:47 PM
01/22/17 01:47 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Elle I didn't have any particular post in mind. It's a trend, and the trend is to pick ideas that you like from inspired sources and reject those that you don't.

? Then don't pass any comment if there's nothing in particular. Don't make general statement like that.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
In the case of Ellen White, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it true you think she was partly inspired.

What does it have to do with this discussion? Can't you accept brothers or sisters that are convicted that we need to find all their support for what they believe from the law & the prophet [==scriptures]? Anything wrong with that? I got that from Ellen's counsel that I took to heart. Also I took to heart when Ellen and James told us not to quote her. I perceived these to be wise counsels and I followed them without mal-intent or knowing what the Bible would reveal to me once I studied it.

Besides the first two mentioned above, after 9 years of studying it led to other reasons which I made it all known in the Should we quote EGW? --The Lord Canonized OT & NT -- shouldn't EGW's writings also? discussion here. The title of the discussion expresses my new main reason which is reason #7 in that OP list. I would like to rely on her writings, but I cannot until the Church does the proper cleaning by removing all the writings that does not come from her pen.

Because of that reason, since I [or anyone actually] cannot say whether this passage is from Ellen's pen or not....then if I find something in that text that doesn't fit with the law or the prophets ... then how can I [or anyone else] say Ellen is not inspired in that conflicting text that probably she didn't write that section herself ?????

However, I do believe we have the Bible as a reliable source and we can depend on it.

Can you study with someone that relies on only scriptures? Can you at least understand my reasons and position? I have no problem to study with you guys who still quote EGW, because we can find common ground with scriptures.

If you want to discuss further about my position of EGW's writings, the link above is the proper place to do it.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
And I've seen the same trend with scripture but I don't think you see that you're doing that.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are referring too. Could you be more clear?

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
That's what I'm referring to by too much of a free spirit. There is great freedom in Christ, the greatest that we can know, but the paradox is that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. In our great freedom, we live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Elle, you know I love you as a brother.

I'm still not following you. In the underline above, are you saying something about 2 prophets which I don't know what you mean there. Do you mean that :

a)I am the [later] prophet that needs to submit to EGW[that according to you that all her writings are fully in compliance to the law and the prophets of Scriptures]?

b)I am the [later]prophet that needs to submit to the prophets of the Bible?

c) EGW is the [later] prophet that needs to submit to the prophets of the Bible?

Correct me if I'm wrong, you probably are referring to a). Well, I don't how to say this but I'm not a prophet. I'm here to study and learn. To learn God's word, we need to develop an ear to hear the voice of the Spirit. I'm struggling, but always learning. That pursuit does NOT make me a prophet, or a wannabe -- because ....hearing God's voice is NOT only for Prophets. Somehow in our Church we have this narrow minded association that only Prophets hear God's voice. Every member of the Body of Christ needs to hear God's voice for themselves regardless of which Church position they serve in the body. Without hearing, how can someone be called to a function and perform its calling?


Blessings
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #182371
01/23/17 01:14 AM
01/23/17 01:14 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Elle, the remnant is identified by having the gift of prophecy. That applies to all of the remnant. All of us are to have a measure of the gift of prophecy because it's essential if we are to understand the prophecies of scripture. Spiritual things are only spiritually discerned. So the prophetic spirit in each member of the remnant is subject to the prophetic spirit in scripture and among ourselves because it is the same Spirit. Christ's prayer for the perfect unity and perfect love of the body of Christ will be granted as the church brings every thought into captivity to the will of Christ.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #182372
01/23/17 01:39 AM
01/23/17 01:39 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Elle, the remnant is identified by having the gift of prophecy. That applies to all of the remnant. All of us are to have a measure of the gift of prophecy because it's essential if we are to understand the prophecies of scripture. Spiritual things are only spiritually discerned. So the prophetic spirit in each member of the remnant is subject to the prophetic spirit in scripture and among ourselves because it is the same Spirit. Christ's prayer for the perfect unity and perfect love of the body of Christ will be granted as the church brings every thought into captivity to the will of Christ.

Then all of Christianity is "the remnant" because all of Christianity has the Revelation of Jesus Christ (i.e. the spirit of prophecy) and believe it to be true indeed.

///

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #182373
01/23/17 01:23 PM
01/23/17 01:23 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
This is getting off topic. And I really don't like this type of discussion. I would rather study about the trumpets. Mark, I'll forgive your unseasoned general comment about me.

Let's continue with this discussion.


Blessings
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: James Peterson] #182377
01/23/17 03:40 PM
01/23/17 03:40 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: kland
Is there no more left to our redemption? What about the sanctuary part of the scapegoat?

Jesus was the scapegoat: he took our sin upon himself and bore it away, nevermore to be held against us. John 1:29, "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'" The sin of ALL the sin offerings remained until the Day of Atonement when it was ALL taken away in one day, i.e. Calvary.

///

So Jesus was the sacrifice AND the scapegoat at the same time? Could you show us in the sanctuary service where that happens?

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Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
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