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Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: kland] #182378
01/23/17 05:00 PM
01/23/17 05:00 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Posts: 2,536
Canada
Quote:
Kland: Is there no more left to our redemption? What about the sanctuary part of the scapegoat?

James Peterson: Jesus was the scapegoat: he took our sin upon himself and bore it away, nevermore to be held against us. John 1:29, "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, 'Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.'" The sin of ALL the sin offerings remained until the Day of Atonement when it was ALL taken away in one day, i.e. Calvary.

I don't believe Jesus is Azazel which is mis-translated as "scapegoat" in Lev 16. (see Post #138061).

But I like the way James used the term scapegoat by saying that Jesus is the scapegoat (in the sense of our current definition of this word in our day to day language). I do agree with the spirit of James' statement.

According to the Masoretic source text and the Rabbis (as I have ask a few personally). The 2nd goat of Lev 16 is NOT Azazel. I ask them who is Azazel? One told me that Azazel is a specific mountain name that exist. I ask what does it mean. They told me they didn't know for the Lord didn't reveal it yet.

Most English translations have turned the 2nd live goat into Azazel by translating 3 things wrong twice in Lev 16 (see Post #138061). These has completely change the meaning of the text from the source.
Originally Posted By: kland
Kland : So Jesus was the sacrifice AND the scapegoat at the same time? Could you show us in the sanctuary service where that happens?

Let me rephrase. Where in the sanctuary service do we find a similar service to Lev 16 having two sacrificial animals: one being dead and the other being alive? Lev 14.

In Lev 14 it is a cleansing service also where the cleansing deals specifically with Leprosy(decaying Flesh disease that symbolizes the effect of sin...which is slow death). So it takes two birds to do the cleansing. The first bird is killed represents Jesus 1st coming and 1st work which is a DEATH work/coming.

The second bird that is kept alive but dipped in the blood of the 1st, represents that the 2nd work of Christ is based on the first (His death work). (see how Jesus 2nd coming is described in Rev 19:13 -- He comes with a coat dipped in blood. The only Bible figure that his coat was dipped in blood was Joseph and his coat was specifically, dipped in goat blood(see Gen 37:31).

The 2nd work of Christ is a LIVE work -- where the alive bird is released in the field by which Jesus said in Mat 13:38 "the field is the world". So symbolically it speaks of Jesus being released to the world so he can perform His 2nd work of cleansing in the WHOLE WORLD. Similar to Lev 16 where the 2nd live goat is sent to Azazel (the stout goat). So in Rev 19:15 we have Jesus going to the NATIONS (that's the World).


Blessings
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: James Peterson] #182379
01/23/17 07:29 PM
01/23/17 07:29 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson

Then all of Christianity is "the remnant" because all of Christianity has the Revelation of Jesus Christ (i.e. the spirit of prophecy) and believe it to be true indeed.


James in addition to the spirit of prophecy, the remnant has one other identifying mark - they "keep the commandments of God". Rev. 14:12. You remember the words of Christ: "Not everyone that says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom, but he who . . . " does what?

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #182380
01/23/17 07:33 PM
01/23/17 07:33 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Any thoughts Karen on my Jan 21 post? Anyone?

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #182381
01/23/17 10:18 PM
01/23/17 10:18 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Elle makes that point that the Feast of Trumpets (not the seven trumpets) is a one day feast, which is correct. Since that is the case, this Feast is not a good parallel or type of the seven trumpets. It is a good candidate for being one of the seven trumpets, the final one, but not for being the fulfillment of all seven of the seven trumpets.

I haven't read this thread entirely. Did Karen bring the point that in the TYPE they blew the trumpet on the first day of the Feasts month -- in total that makes 7 trumpets. That's the relation I see with the TYPE and Revelation. The 7th trumpet being the last one to sound.

So I agree with Karen, that the Feast of Trumpet is the 7th trumpet sounded in a Feast yearly cycle. I don't agree with Karen that the feast of Trumpet was a 10 day celebration. That's not biblical. Yes I agree that there's 10 days before the Day of Atonement, but that is the time in between the two Feasts.

Also, there were different types of trumpets. Is the trumpet blown at the Jubilee time the same as the trumpets blown at the beginning of each months? Let's check that by looking at the Hebrew words of these trumpets words by which would reveal more information.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
If we want to understand the seven trumpets, (and we all see thought a glass darkly when it comes to unfulfilled prophecy) the siege and destruction of Jericho is the closest match in scripture. There you have the seven days with seven trumpet blasts and the loudest blast that brought down the walls on the seventh day - a close parallel to the seventh trumpet that announces the end of Babylon and the beginning of the reign of Christ.

I agree.

Originally Posted By: Mark
The timing and circumstances of the conquest should be considered as well. Israel had just crossed the Jordan and began to possess the land. The men had just been circumcised. The first Passover in the Promised Land had just been celebrated. The counting of the Jubilee had just begun, year 1 of the first Jubilee cycle. It was in the spring, and the conquest began either during Unleavened Bread for seven days or right after it. I'm still studying it.

Compare the two (the 1st and the 2nd) point of entrance to Canaan. They are different in time :

--the 1st at the 50th Jubilee from Adam(2450) :
....(+) on a appointed time TYPE
....(+) on the 50th Jubilee cycle
....(+) on the 49th year of that Jubilee cycle
....(+) on the correct Feast(Month) Time.

--the 2nd at the 50th Jubilee + 38 years(2488) :
....(-) NOT on the appointed time TYPE
....(-) Not on the 49th year on the next Creation Jubilee cycle
....(-) Not on the correct Feast(Month) Time. They entered on Passover as Mark has noted.

--Do notice that the Creation Jubilee calendar and their time starting the Feasts in the promise land is OFF by 11(or 12?) years.

Another difference between the two worth mentioning right now, is the point(location) of entrance to Canaan.

--the 1st would of been on dry land which represents -- Israel wouldn't of had to die before entering the "final"(well as a type) destination.

--the 2nd was via the Jordan River which represents baptism/death. And yes it was on Passover on top of it which represents death and baptism. This also reflects the spiritual level of faith(maturity) of the Church in the Wilderness of that TIME. They were only babes with a Passover level of faith just being conceived by the Spirit. They refused(couldn't) enter Pentecost 50 days after being baptized in the Red sea. The Pentecost level of faith was only entered by the Corporate Church over 2000 years after. and most definetly they didn't have the faith for entering the promise land on the first appointed time.

So since there's two different starting point of Jubilee calendars which one do you think is the one the Lord is using to bring the anti-type to fulfillment? And do you think he's going to fix the gap between the two Jubilee calendars?


Blessings
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #182382
01/24/17 12:05 AM
01/24/17 12:05 AM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: James Peterson

Then all of Christianity is "the remnant" because all of Christianity has the Revelation of Jesus Christ (i.e. the spirit of prophecy) and believe it to be true indeed.


James in addition to the spirit of prophecy, the remnant has one other identifying mark - they "keep the commandments of God". Rev. 14:12. You remember the words of Christ: "Not everyone that says unto me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom, but he who . . . " does what?

Then the following are "the remnant" because they have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (the Book of Revelation given through John) and they keep the commandments of God:

1. Church of God (Seventh Day)
2. Sabbath Rest Advent Church
3. House of Yahweh (Seventh Day)
4. Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement
5. Seventh Day Adventist Church
6. Seventh Day Baptists
7. The Messianic Jews

In fact, if anyone has first claim to the title of "THE remnant", it would be the Messianic Jews; for they are the remnant of the people of God who follow the Lamb wherever He goes (Rev. 14)

///

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #182384
01/24/17 12:21 AM
01/24/17 12:21 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Posts: 4,583
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Good point James. We're agreed. I'd just note that my understanding of the remnant is broader still - it's this:

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 12:17
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Rev 19:10.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #182385
01/24/17 12:28 AM
01/24/17 12:28 AM
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Charity  Offline
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I say "broader still" but inspiration also narrows the gate of entry - denomination affiliation is no key to the kingdom, I think you'd agree. The key is living by every word.

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Charity] #182386
01/24/17 01:20 AM
01/24/17 01:20 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
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Active Member 2023

Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
Psalm 77:13 "Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?"

Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Elle] #182391
01/24/17 04:18 PM
01/24/17 04:18 PM
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Charity  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
So since there's two different starting point of Jubilee calendars which one do you think is the one the Lord is using to bring the anti-type to fulfillment? And do you think he's going to fix the gap between the two Jubilee calendars?


I appreciate your thought provoking comments. Regarding the starting point of the Jubilee calendar I've not made any effort to synchronize it with creation. It's not that it can't be done but my goal is only to synchronize it correctly with the true starting point of the count when the Israelites first began to reckon them as instructed by God through Moses. It's the same approach the Millerites were careful to follow with the start of the 70 weeks, for the same purpose, to see where it ends. We only need the correct starting point for the 70 to do that so we can leave the full 120 aside.

In my view Daniel 9 requires placing the death of Christ in the middle of a Jubilee, and if that is so the spring of this year marks the end of a Jubilee. The way I determine which of the Jubilees expires this year is to go back 70 Jubilees and, using the known and established chronological data such as 457 BC and 586 BC, reconcile that chronology with Ezekiel 4 which bridges the obscure chronology of the kings, and then see if it fits. And it does appear to fit. So in my view 2017 is a good candidate for the termination of the 70th Jubilee and since Christ indicates that the divine account of grace is 70 times 7 we should watch and be sober.

Last edited by Mark Shipowick; 01/24/17 04:32 PM. Reason: Clarification
Re: Seven Trumpets reconsidered [Re: Karen Y] #182419
01/31/17 04:05 AM
01/31/17 04:05 AM
K
Karen Y  Offline OP
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Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 487
Michigan, US
The Seven Trumpets message directs our eyes to Jesus Christ and to His ministry in heavenly sanctuary. God never reveals future judgment without assurance of His provision, the True Sacrifice, Jesus Christ. Thus the Seven Trumpets have a snapshot of of Jesus' ministry as an introduction.

This snapshot (Rev. 8:3-5) has ample evidences that Jesus is in the Most Holy Place. He is going to cast ashes down when He finishes the work of ministration. When He declares "It is done" the door of the probation forever closes. With this introduction, each of the Seven Trumpet portrays the close of probation in a sevenfold perspective.

The theme of the close probation is distinctively clear in the vision of the Seven Trumpets. And we are entreated to behold Christ, our True Sacrifice. When we identify Him as our own substitute, we mourn for him "as one morneth for his only son" (Zech.12:10). No wonder Satan tries to keep us from beholding Jesus.

The Seven Trumpets are sounding that the close of probation is imminent. The four angels will loose their hold of the wind and a great crisis will occur: The earth will be "hurt" such as never was since a nation was. I pray we make Jesus our atoning sacrifice today before the close probation arrives.

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