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Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: APL] #182344
01/18/17 05:15 PM
01/18/17 05:15 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rick
So what then is your definition of a "true Jew"?
I did not think I was being cryptic with the verses I quoted. Do you disagree with 2 I listed????

Galatians 3:29 And if you be Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Cryptic? Let's try to be Biblical first. I'm sorry, but the text above does not say Abraham was Jew nor imply it. And even in Abraham's time, there weren't any Israelites yet. Scripture tells us Abraham was a Hebrew not a Jew. And Jacob wasn't even an Israelite when he was born. Do note that he was given the name Israel and not the name Judah. The name "JEW" derive from the nation of JUDAH who is ONE of the 12 tribes of Israel.

There's a Biblical differences in terms of definition, prophecies between a Hebrew, an Israelite, or a Jew. Looking at the meaning of the Hebrew words of these words and their root gives clues. Besides being the name of actual historical nations, the past events they went thru also further identifies the purpose and the mind of God in raising them and what they symbolize in the plan of salvation.

To me Rom 2:28, Paul simply making the point that all those who accepted Christ was the TRUE JEWS IN GOD's EYES. It does NOT mean that the natural nation of Judah ceased to exist, and all the prophecies concerning that natural nation cease to be relevant to natural Judah. No, I see none of these assumption is Paul's point.

And that is what we Christian did with the nation of Israel (Aka, the 10 lost tribes). That natural nation of Israel still exist today, despite the Lord dispersed them into the world. And all of Isaiah's prophecies about the restoration of the NATURAL nation of Israel is still ON.

Yes there is a Natural nation of Judah, and there's a Spiritual nation of Judah. We need to be able to understand these parallele existance in scriptures and in real life. And above that, there's also a separate natural nation of Israel.

And then according to Isaiah there's a coming unification of Judah to Israel and NOT vice versa. Meaning a spiritual JEW is still not yet a spiritual Israelite.

Take note of the following :

1. Jesus came at His first coming as a JEW -- taking the scepter that was given to Judah.

2.The scepter was to belong to Judah "until Shiloh comes" (see Gen 49:10). Meaning the scepter(authority) was given to Judah TEMPORARILY because

3.the Birthright belong to the tribe of Joseph. The name of "Israel" was given to his two sons (Gen 48:16) and not to JUDAH. 1Ch 5:2 "For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's".

4.Thus in Rev 19:13 Jesus is described as coming (His 2nd coming) as a Joseph with His coat dipped in blood(Gen 37:31).


My take, it is not until Jesus comes as a Joseph(an Israelite) at His 2nd coming, that the breach between the nation of Judah and Israel will be fixed, and His body will go to the next spiritual level in becoming spiritual Israelites in all its Biblical definition of the word.


Blessings
Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182345
01/18/17 06:26 PM
01/18/17 06:26 PM
APL  Offline
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Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Abraham was a Christian! And please quote the verses where the promises of the New Covenant are stated. Thanks.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: APL] #182428
02/04/17 12:59 AM
02/04/17 12:59 AM
Rick H  Offline
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Group: Admin Team
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: rick
So what then is your definition of a "true Jew"?
I did not think I was being cryptic with the verses I quoted. Do you disagree with 2 I listed????

Galatians 3:29 And if you be Christ’s, then are you Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

In Galatians 3, to whom was the promise? I have not listed the verses, but surely you know them; the New Covenant, to whom is it offered? After answering this, then it is clear that ALL who are saved must be in Christ, and then they are heirs to the promise. This will include people from all nations, tongues, and peoples.


The Bible explains itself, but some are blinded to it, just like those that cant see the truth of the Sabbath....

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182438
02/05/17 10:29 PM
02/05/17 10:29 PM
dedication  Offline
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Supporting Member 2022

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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada

A true Israelite is united with Christ,
Christ is the true Israel.
Israel means "Prince of God" One with power to be victorious with God.
Those in Christ are the true "children of Israel".
Brothers and sisters of Christ, sons and daughters of God.

The issue is not about physical heritage, but spiritual heritage.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,

Romans 9:6-8For they are not all Israel which are of Israel; neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children… but the children of promise are counted for the seed." .

Galatians 3:29."And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise
"



The issue is the true meaning if ISRAEL. Which is rooted in Christ.
Natural jews were either part of the "tree" or cut off from the "tree" depending on their acceptance of Christ. Gentiles were grafted into the tree, and are in danger of being cut of from the tree, again depending on their acceptance of Christ.
(See Romans 9)


The breach between Jews and Gentiles was mended at Christ's first coming. Both being offered to become part of the household of God and partakers of the promises.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that you were in time past Gentiles in the flesh, called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:16 that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby
2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Rick H] #182442
02/06/17 04:16 AM
02/06/17 04:16 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: Rick H
We came across the question of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude which No One Could Number. It cause some issues as we struggled with it as the Adventist view is not clearly laid out and Ellen White held back for reasons which will become clear.


We have the following views in Adventism:

1. That these two groups of people are one and the same. However, I find some problems with this:

Issues with this view.
A. The 144,000 is specifically named from the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4) however, the Great Multitude comes from All Nations (Revelation 7:9)

B. The Great Multitude Could Not be Numbered (Revelation 7:9), however, 144,000 is a Numbered People (Revelation 7:4)

C. The 144,000 is specifically said to be those that "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb",(Revelation 7:14), "Virgins", and "were redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14).


2. That the 144,000 are just symbolic

The issue with this is fairly straightforward.
A. Why give a specific number if its symbolic.

B. Why separate them from the Great Multitude which No One Could Number, why not just leave it at that.


3. That the 144,000 are those that are living and the 'first fruits' raised up to meet Him when Christ comes, and the resurrected are raised up to join them in the air and both taken to heaven.

I like this answer the best and don't see any issues with it, but want everyone's thoughts and input.


Here is Revelation 7 King James Version (KJV) on the issue.

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

And here is Revelation 14 King James Version (KJV):

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.



I personally believe that the 144,000 live through the last and terrible tribulation of this earth after the close of probation.

This great multitude are all the redeemed of the earth, which would include the 144,000, but, be a much larger number in total.

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Alchemy] #182443
02/06/17 04:17 AM
02/06/17 04:17 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
I have had an impossible time trying to connect to this site and I don't know what to do about it.

I don't know why I was able to connect this time.

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Alchemy] #182446
02/06/17 05:37 AM
02/06/17 05:37 AM
dedication  Offline
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rick H
We came across the question of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude which No One Could Number. It cause some issues as we struggled with it as the Adventist view is not clearly laid out and Ellen White held back for reasons which will become clear.


We have the following views in Adventism:

1. That these two groups of people are one and the same. However, I find some problems with this:

2. That the 144,000 are just symbolic

3. That the 144,000 are those that are living and the 'first fruits' raised up to meet Him when Christ comes, and the resurrected are raised up to join them in the air and both taken to heaven.

I like this answer the best and don't see any issues with it, but want everyone's thoughts and input.



There is another view prevalent in Adventism:

4. The 144,000 are those who receive the outpouring of the latter rain and go forth to witness -- to bring in the final harvest. (Like Christ's followers in the upper room on Pentecost)
With power from the Holy Spirit they go forth -- the whole earth is lightened with the final message and a large multitude respond.

"The great work of the gospel is not to close with less manifestation of the power of God than marked its opening. The prophecies which were fulfilled in the outpouring of the former rain at the opening of the gospel, are again to be fulfilled in the latter rain at its close. {GC88 611.1}


From the chapter "The Shaking" in which many careless ones are shaken out from God's people, while those who pray and cling to God receive the latter rain.

""Said the angel, "Look ye!" My attention was then turned to the company I had seen, who were mightily shaken. I was shown those whom I had before seen weeping and praying in agony of spirit. The company of guardian angels around them had been doubled, and they were clothed with an armor from their head to their feet. They moved in exact order, like a company of soldiers. .... I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect. Many had been bound; some wives by their husbands, and some children by their parents. The honest who had been prevented from hearing the truth now eagerly laid hold upon it. All fear of their relatives was gone, and the truth alone was exalted to them. They had been hungering and thirsting for truth; it was dearer and more precious than life. I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered, "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel." {CET 177.2}

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: Alchemy] #182473
02/09/17 09:00 AM
02/09/17 09:00 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,168
Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
I have had an impossible time trying to connect to this site and I don't know what to do about it.

I don't know why I was able to connect this time.


I have had that problem with Safari a few times,
have you tried downloading a different browser?


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: dedication] #182653
03/04/17 12:50 PM
03/04/17 12:50 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication

A true Israelite is united with Christ,
Christ is the true Israel.
Israel means "Prince of God" One with power to be victorious with God.
Those in Christ are the true "children of Israel".
Brothers and sisters of Christ, sons and daughters of God.

The issue is not about physical heritage, but spiritual heritage.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly... 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,

Romans 9:6-8For they are not all Israel which are of Israel; neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they all children… but the children of promise are counted for the seed." .

Galatians 3:29."And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise
"



The issue is the true meaning if ISRAEL. Which is rooted in Christ.
Natural jews were either part of the "tree" or cut off from the "tree" depending on their acceptance of Christ. Gentiles were grafted into the tree, and are in danger of being cut of from the tree, again depending on their acceptance of Christ.
(See Romans 9)


The breach between Jews and Gentiles was mended at Christ's first coming. Both being offered to become part of the household of God and partakers of the promises.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that you were in time past Gentiles in the flesh, called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:16 that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby
2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19 Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Yes, excellent post..

Re: The 144,000 and the Great Multitude from the Great Tribulation [Re: dedication] #182654
03/04/17 12:52 PM
03/04/17 12:52 PM
Rick H  Offline
OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Rick H
We came across the question of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude which No One Could Number. It cause some issues as we struggled with it as the Adventist view is not clearly laid out and Ellen White held back for reasons which will become clear.


We have the following views in Adventism:

1. That these two groups of people are one and the same. However, I find some problems with this:

2. That the 144,000 are just symbolic

3. That the 144,000 are those that are living and the 'first fruits' raised up to meet Him when Christ comes, and the resurrected are raised up to join them in the air and both taken to heaven.

I like this answer the best and don't see any issues with it, but want everyone's thoughts and input.



There is another view prevalent in Adventism:

4. The 144,000 are those who receive the outpouring of the latter rain and go forth to witness -- to bring in the final harvest. (Like Christ's followers in the upper room on Pentecost)
With power from the Holy Spirit they go forth -- the whole earth is lightened with the final message and a large multitude respond.

"The great work of the gospel is not to close with less manifestation of the power of God than marked its opening. The prophecies which were fulfilled in the outpouring of the former rain at the opening of the gospel, are again to be fulfilled in the latter rain at its close. {GC88 611.1}


From the chapter "The Shaking" in which many careless ones are shaken out from God's people, while those who pray and cling to God receive the latter rain.

""Said the angel, "Look ye!" My attention was then turned to the company I had seen, who were mightily shaken. I was shown those whom I had before seen weeping and praying in agony of spirit. The company of guardian angels around them had been doubled, and they were clothed with an armor from their head to their feet. They moved in exact order, like a company of soldiers. .... I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect. Many had been bound; some wives by their husbands, and some children by their parents. The honest who had been prevented from hearing the truth now eagerly laid hold upon it. All fear of their relatives was gone, and the truth alone was exalted to them. They had been hungering and thirsting for truth; it was dearer and more precious than life. I asked what had made this great change. An angel answered, "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel." {CET 177.2}
Were is the context for the chapter "The Shaking" showing it is the 144,000. Need to be careful, they are 2 different things, we definitely can see the start of the shaking now, the 144,000 are those left at the end.....

Last edited by Rick H; 03/04/17 12:53 PM.
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