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Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #182570
02/23/17 12:42 PM
02/23/17 12:42 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
What hasn't yet been fulfilled from the 490 years prophecy in Daniel 9?


I cover that in my first post of the thread. But briefly, everlasting righteousness hasn't yet been established in spiritual Israel and the division of the seven and sixty two weeks has no historic fulfillment. According to the Jews, the second temple was 46 years in building rather than 49 and the anointed one did not come at that time.

Malachi 3 is the fulfillment of this part of Daniel 9 IMO. The overwhelming surprise that EG White speaks of is when Christ suddenly comes to His temple at the judgment of the living. This is what divides the 69 weeks into two segments of seven and sixty two.


The sixty and two weeks in verse 26 is the last part of the 69 weeks in verse 25. The righteousness of Christ fulfilled on the earth and His opening the Heavenly Sanctuary to all mankind fulfills the everlasting righteousness of Christ in verse 24. So, all has been fulfilled in the seventy weeks or 490 year prophecy of Daniel 9.

Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #182603
02/25/17 12:33 PM
02/25/17 12:33 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Ellen White says the two cleansings of the temple by Christ are symbolic of the double cleansing of the end-time church. In her statement as I recall it, she equates the first cleansing with the second angel's message and the second cleansing with the third.

Ok...let's look into that a little.

1st angel message == would be equivalent to the Passover message(since you applied the blood of Jesus on your heart altar in your body temple which is an equivalence of worshiping Jesus the Creator=1st Angel message)

2nd angel message == Pentecost message (since we are to get out of the confusion of Babylon that only can be accomplish via the personal teaching of the Holy Spirit who is the only ONE that can tell you what is truth and what is not).

3rd angel message == Tabernacle message

So having the two cleansing at Passover & Pentecost, this is NOT according to the Type of the two Doves that I was saying representing the 1st coming that Christ fulfilled the spring feasts (==Passover & Pentecost) and at His 2nd coming Christ fulfills the fall feasts (== Tabernacle).

But it doesn't mean that the 1st & 2nd angel message doesn't match other cleansing laws found in the books of Moses. One that came to mind .... is the law of cleansing after child birth. For a female double cleansing is required versus a male a single cleansing is required. I believe these laws are as prophetic as any other laws. That would be interesting to look at for the 2nd coming of Christ is about birthing the body of Christ who are the 144K -- the overcomers-- the high Priests family -- the rulers with Christ.

Originally Posted By: mark
If we tie that in with the two temples, the Mosaic and Ezekiel's, it is the second angel's message that calls spiritual Israel out of Babylon.

I wouldn't make such association. Mixing these two temples with the Feasts....they are not the same. The feasts is about the 3 level of spiritual growth; whereas the temple represents the body of an individual or the corporate group.

Originally Posted By: mark
Once they are out of Babylon, their atonement is complete. They are not beyond sinning but they are cleansed by the blood of Christ so there is a change in the heavenly service as illustrated in Ezekiel's temple where there is only one daily offering.

I don't know if we can say that their atonement is complete. We know that the atonement is only a covering. Something to think about... Right now I don't know.

I know this far ... once we get out of Pentecost, we enter Tabernacle. And then like Jacob who entered Tabernacle after his struggle with the Angel...wasn't changed.... he had to wait like Abraham, David and all other overcomers for the 1st resurrection for really entering Tabernacle is a Corporate experience... So even yu have entered Tabernacle individually, all individuals have to wait for the 1st corporate fulfillment of Tabernacle. Notice I supersize 1st, because their are 3 harvest in the law -- thus 3 corporate tabernacle experiences.....

and when the 1st group, the 144k, does enter Tabernacle at Jesus 2nd coming..... they[we] are responsible to shepherd--care for the sheep and the goats of the Lord. Like Jacob who entered Tabernacle, had to build sukkoths for the Lords sheeps & goats that was put under his charge.

My impression, it is only at the end of Jubilee will everyone (including the 144k) truly will be all released despite they have gotten their immortal robes before all others. Those that enter Tabernacle (the 144k) first .... have no personal possession whatsover -- the law says "the Lord is their possession".... meaning the business of the Lord is now their ONLY possession and business.

Originally Posted By: mark
It is these twelve tribes who then give the final message, the third one, in the power of the latter rain. That is why, in Rev 14 the 144k are pictured before the three angels. These messages are brought to their climax at the loud cry of the third angel by the 144k.

I do agree that it will be via the 144k that the latter rain will come. But keep in mind that it requires two Doves to cleanse the world's body temple.... that represents the two cleansing work of Christ in His 1st coming and 2nd coming. Christ 2nd coming only starts happening when the 144K comes ....

And how long do you think this 2nd "live" cleansing work will last? Since only one Jubilee week-thousand year has passed (6000 years + the first Millenium rest that we are about to enter).... I expect this 2nd "live" cleansing work will last another 6 weeks-thousand years which is another 6 x 7000 = 42000 years after the Millennium so we can arrive to the Great Jubilee of end time...when all debts are finally cancelled whether fully paid or not and everyone is restored back to their original estate.


Blessings
Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #182606
02/25/17 12:46 PM
02/25/17 12:46 PM
His child  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Regarding time setting, I'm not saying anything must happen this spring. I'm saying it could and if it does, we'll have a better picture of where we stand prophetically.


Quote:
“Not at first had God revealed the exact time of the first advent; and even when the prophecy of Daniel made this known, not all rightly interpreted the message.” PK 700.1


Quote:
“As the message of Christ’s First Advent announced the kingdom of His grace, so the message of His Second Advent announces the kingdom of His glory. And the second message, like the first, is based on the prophecies. The words of the angel to Daniel relating to the last days were to be understood in the time of the end.” DA 234.4


Quote:
“The book that was sealed is…that portion of the prophecy of Daniel relating to the last days”AA 585.1


Quote:
“The light that Daniel received direct from God was given especially for these last days. The visions [Daniel 8-12] he saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment and ALL THE EVENTS FORETOLD WILL SOON HAVE COME TO PASS.” 4BC 1166.5 caps added


Jerusalem fell in 605 BC

Quote:
“After seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you…to return to this place” (Jeremiah 29:10)


Quote:
“Cyrus succeeded to the throne, and the beginning of his reign marked the completion of the seventy years” PK 556.4


Quote:
“First I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double” (cf Jeremiah 16:15 & 18).


From the 605 fall of Jerusalem, the doubling of the 70-years (140-years) ended in 465, which was Artaxerxes ascension year. His first year began the next year (464 BC).

Quote:
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel 8:14


2300 days prophetically speaking using a 360 day/year are
6 years
4 months
20 days

Quote:
Ezra “came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which [was] in the seventh year of the king” (Ezra 7:8).


6 years had past it was the 7th year of King Artaxerxes
4 months and 20 days had ended...it was the 5th month of Artaxerxes

From the fall of 605 Jerusalem 70 years had ended, they had been doubled to 140 years that had ended, and when 2300 literal days were ended Ezra was in Jerusalem in time for the cleansing of the newly rebuilt Temple...the cleansing of the sanctuary, or the great Day of Atonement, occurred on the tenth day of the seventh Jewish month, [Leviticus 16:29-34.]

Quote:
“From the date of the decree of the king of Persia, found in Ezra 7, which was given in 457 before Christ, the 2300 years of Daniel 8:14 must terminate with 1843.”LS80 185.2


Quote:
“The same evidence they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844. Light from the word of God shone upon their position, and they discovered a tarrying time.--If the vision tarry, wait for it.--In their love for Jesus’ immediate coming, they had overlooked the tarrying of the vision, which was calculated to manifest the true waiting ones.” 1SG 138.1


The literal 2300 days ended in 457 BC
From 457 BC, the 2300 years ended in 1843
From 457 BC, the 2300 years ended a second time in 1844
The 2300 years ended twice
If either date 1843 or 1844 is rejected the tarrying time that fulfilled prophecy is made void

Quote:
In like manner, the types which relate to the Second Advent must be fulfilled at the time pointed out in the symbolic service. Under the Mosaic system, the cleansing of the sanctuary, or the great Day of Atonement, occurred on the tenth day of the seventh Jewish month, [Leviticus 16:29-34.] when the high priest, having made an atonement for all Israel, and thus removed their sins from the sanctuary, came forth and blessed the people. So it was believed that Christ, our great High Priest, would appear to purify the earth by the destruction of sin and sinners, and to bless His waiting people with immortality. The tenth day of the seventh month, the great Day of Atonement, the time of the cleansing of the sanctuary, which in the year 1844 fell upon the 22d of October, was regarded as the time of the Lord’s coming.” GC88 399.2-3


The cleansing of the Sanctuary BEGAN in 1844. The Sanctuary will not be cleansed until Jesus states “It is done” (Revelation 21:6)

Quote:
“The Sanctuary, to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, is the New Jerusalem Temple, of which Christ is a minister.”WLF 12.8

Quote:
“By virtue of the atoning blood of Christ, the sins of all the truly penitent will be blotted from the books of heaven. Thus the sanctuary will be freed, or cleansed, from the record of sin.”PP 357.6


the 2300 years ended in 1844 but the 2300 day prophecy will not end until the Sanctuary is cleansed when Jesus states "it is done"

Quote:
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel 8:14


Quote:
"The visions [Daniel 8-12] ...are now in process of fulfillment and ALL THE EVENTS FORETOLD WILL SOON HAVE COME TO PASS.” 4BC 1166.5 caps added


Jesus is yet to declare that the Sanctuary has been cleansed


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: His child] #182637
03/02/17 01:18 AM
03/02/17 01:18 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: His child
the 2300 years ended in 1844 but the 2300 day prophecy will not end until the Sanctuary is cleansed when Jesus states "it is done"

OK, let's consider that HC. Where do you think we stand now and why?

Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #182638
03/02/17 05:00 AM
03/02/17 05:00 AM
dedication  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Two tracks leading away from the foundational truths of Adventism.
1. Time setting, trying to rework the time lines to predict end time events.
2. Following the great Israel deception that will sweep the world.



The Song
The Holy City
I have sung that song on numerous occasions, even made a power point of pictures to go along as the words are sung.

The song is NOT about the city so much as it is about our Savior.

The first verse --
The Setting is "old Jerusalem" -- picture the triumphal entry.
Why are the children singing and why do the angels join the song? It's because the promised Messiah has come to Old Jerusalem. He came --

BUT

Second verse
Messiah is rejected
Hushed are the glad Hosannas as the shadow of the cross arose upon a lonely hill.

Third verse
we no longer see Old Jerusalem -- old Jerusalem is no longer part of Messiah's story.
This is a picture of the NEW EARTH!
Now it's the "NEW JERUSALEM" beside the tideless sea!
Picture Jesus standing at the wide open pearly gates, welcoming the redeemed. This city will never pass away, for it is the New Jerusalem from heaven.

Last edited by dedication; 03/02/17 05:08 AM.
Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #182639
03/02/17 05:46 AM
03/02/17 05:46 AM
dedication  Offline
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Posts: 6,411
Canada
Old Jerusalem is the deceiver's trump card.
He will make it appear old Jerusalem is part of salvation's end-time program, but it is not. The great deceiver has many deceived into this program. This deceptive teaching has permeated just the core of Christian prophetic thinking! And I tremble to see these things pushed forward as truth on a forum for Adventists.

A supposed Messiah will probably appear and bring the promise of peace to that battered old city, but it won' be our Savior. People will cry out, "Christ has come, Christ has come" Things are ingeniously being shaped to use old Jerusalem as a powerful, deceptive counterfeit for the false prophet of Revelation to deceive the world, when scripture plainly tells us we are to look to the New Jerusalem now, not old Jerusalem

Several of you believe in dreams --
A vivid dream --

The world is in turmoil and great distress, but over in Palestine there is a light. A huge, shiny gate stands open and all the people are eagerly saying "come, let's go to the light, there we will find peace and safety." They joyfully follow charismatic leaders and head for the gate. Some on the sidelines raise their voice and cry, "No, it's a deception" but these are ridiculed, or worse, beaten.
Time lapse -- now people are streaming out of the gate, they are downcast, walking in a lifeless stupor, all joy and hope has disappeared from their faces, that gate is black and dark like a deadly tomb.


When the Jewish nation as a nation rejected the Messiah back in 34 AD, the prophecies outlining what COULD of been had they accepted the Messiah, were not and will not be fulfilled in old Jerusalem. They will meet a more perfect fulfillment, in part in the church, and complete in the New Jerusalem.

I can only urge you -- don't follow the "false prophet" which our understanding of Revelation identifies as the popular churches in the USA. Their interpretation of prophecy is deadly

Remember:
Revelation 19:20 And the beast (Papal power) was taken, and with him the false prophet ( prophet interpretation of USA Christians) that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image..

Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #182658
03/05/17 01:23 AM
03/05/17 01:23 AM
His child  Offline
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Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: His child
the 2300 years ended in 1844 but the 2300 day prophecy will not end until the Sanctuary is cleansed when Jesus states "it is done"

OK, let's consider that HC. Where do you think we stand now and why?


The judgment hour began 22 October 1844 after the tarrying time ended (1843-1844).

How long is the judgment hour?

Quote:
“The Revelation is a sealed book, but it is also an open book, recording marvelous events that are to take place in the last days of this earth’s history. Its teachings are definite, not mystical and unintelligible, and God would have us understand it.” ST, January 11, 1899 par. 5


Thus the times in Revelation are definite, not mystical and unintelligible, and God would have us to understand them.

Under some circumstances, a prophetic day can depict a year (cf Numbers 14:34, Ezekiel 4:6), and the reverse must also be true since Daniel wrote of the end of the 7 years in Daniel 4 as if they were the end of the days. In the big picture, “one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day” (2 Peter 3:8, cf Psalm 90:4). Thus from Daniel 4, it can be understood that Satan’s insane rebellion against God and the sin problem (like the one that Daniel advised the king of Babylon to correct) is limited to 7,000 years.

Quote:
An HOUR (cf Strong):
1) A certain definite time
2) The daytime
3) A twelfth part of the day-time, an hour
4) Any definite time, point of time, moment


Josiah Litch deciphered Revelation 9’s time prophecy by using a 24-hour day. Likewise, the duration of the Judgment Hours for the dead and the living are explained using a 12-hour day (3. A twelfth part of the day-time, an hour).

1000 years / 12 (hours) = 83 years 4 months

The 22 October 1844 Judgment Hour of the DEAD ended 83 years 4 months later on 22 February 1928.

During this hour the papacy was dead. It had received the DEADLY WOUND in 1798 so it was dead at the beginning of the Judgment Hour (22 October 1844). And it remained dead through the entire Judgment Hour of the DEAD that ended 22 February 1928. When the Judgment Hour of the DEAD ended there was a tarrying time in which Mussolini healed papal Babylon’s deadly wound. By mid-summer of 1929, papal Babylon was alive again!

At the appointed time, the 1929 Day of Atonement (14 October 1929) the papacy was now alive and the Judgment Hour of the LIVING BEGAN. It continued 83 years 4 months to 14 February 2013.

Quote:
Revelation 17:1 "the judgment of the great whore"
2 "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication"
7 "the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns"
12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."


The Judgment Hour of the living beast began 14 October 1929 after the seven heads (the popes became kings and received their kingdom) Popes Pius XI & XII, John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I & II, and Benedict XVI. The kings of the prophetic earth (America) that have committed fornication with the beast were the ten horns the American Presidents from Truman (the papacy put him in office) through Bill Clinton. The Judgment Hour of the living beast ended on 14 February 2013.

Days later Pope Benedict resigned at the end of his "Short time" which was less than 7 years (the number of completeness). He finished John-Paul II's last year thru 28 March 2006 and then began his solo reign 29 March 2006 thru 28 February 2013... 1 month and 1 day short of 7 years.

Thus the cases of the dead and living have been decided.

Quote:
The work of judgment which began in 1844, must continue until the cases of all are decided, both of the living and the dead; hence it will extend to the close of human probation. {GC88 435.2}


Since the HOUR allotted to judge the dead and the living have ended should we not be at the end of probation?

Quote:
The end of all things is at hand; and in consideration of the shortness of time, we as a people should watch and pray, and in no ease allow ourselves to be diverted from the solemn work of preparation for the great event before us. Because the time is apparently extended, many have become careless and indifferent in regard to their words and actions. They do not realize their danger, and do not see and understand the mercy of our God in lengthening their probation that they may have time to form characters for the future, immortal life. Every moment is of the highest value. Time is granted them, not to be employed is studying their own ease and becoming dwellers on the earth, but to be used in the work of overcoming every defect in their own characters, and in helping others to see the beauty of holiness by their example and personal effort. But God has a people upon the earth, who in faith and holy hope are tracing down the roll of fast-fulfilling prophecy, and are seeking to purify their souls by obeying the truth, that they may not be found without the wedding garment when Christ shall appear. {RH, October 20, 1885 par. 1}


Quote:
Jesus is soon to step out from between God and man. The sealing will then be accomplished--finished up. Oh, let us keep the whole armor of God that we may be ready for battle at any moment. We shall have to fight every inch of ground now. Satan has come down in great power, knowing his time is short; but with the commandments of God written in our hearts and in our minds [we] will go on strong and bold, and although the sons of Anak be many and tall, yet we will go on crying, The commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus. Arabella, the Lord is coming; are you ready? Can you meet Him in peace and say, This is our God, we have waited for Him?--Letter 5, 1849, pp. 5, 6. (To Brother and Sister Hastings, March 24-30, 1849.) {5MR 200.2}


Quote:
The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand, who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men, each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for the abominations that be done in the midst thereof." {RH, September 23, 1873 par. 4}


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #182694
03/07/17 12:42 AM
03/07/17 12:42 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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As someone who places the trumpets and seals and most of Revelation in the future, I wonder sometimes if some aspects of prophecy aren't being fulfilled now or in the recent past without generally being recognized. For example, has the first seal already been broken without our being aware of it? So I'm open to the kinds of things you raise above. Thanks for sharing HC. I'm just not persuaded.

Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: Charity] #182702
03/07/17 11:56 AM
03/07/17 11:56 AM
His child  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,673
TN, USA
Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
As someone who places the trumpets and seals and most of Revelation in the future, I wonder sometimes if some aspects of prophecy aren't being fulfilled now or in the recent past without generally being recognized. For example, has the first seal already been broken without our being aware of it? So I'm open to the kinds of things you raise above. Thanks for sharing HC. I'm just not persuaded.


I've not been called to persuade anyone. That is the Holy Spirit's office. I just share my studies. Regarding revelation:

Quote:
The Lord Himself revealed to His servant John the mysteries of the book of Revelation, and He designs that they shall be open to the study of all. In this book are depicted scenes that are now in the past, and some of eternal interest that are taking place around us; other of its prophecies will not receive their complete fulfillment until the close of time, when the last great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven will take place.RH, August 31, 1897 par. 5


Quote:
In history and prophecy the Word of God portrays the long continued conflict between truth and error. That conflict is yet in progress. Those things which have been will be repeated. 1MR 47.3 & 17MR 11.1


"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3). www.loudcry101.com
Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: His child] #182726
03/11/17 01:09 AM
03/11/17 01:09 AM
C
Charity  Offline OP
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
Originally Posted By: His child

[quote]The Lord Himself revealed to His servant John the mysteries of the book of Revelation, and He designs that they shall be open to the study of all. In this book are depicted scenes that are now in the past, and some of eternal interest that are taking place around us; other of its prophecies will not receive their complete fulfillment until the close of time, when the last great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven will take place.RH, August 31, 1897 par. 5


I've thought for years that Ellen White knew much more than what she shared.

Regarding the bolded part above, she's referring to the Investigative Judgment no doubt but I think other things as well. What those are is hard to say.

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and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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