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Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: dedication] #181625
10/10/16 01:17 PM
10/10/16 01:17 PM
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Nadi  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Once probation closes -- either at death, or just prior to the second coming at the end of this earth's sinful history, there is no more opportunity to change our "salvation status".

While I agree that at death there is no more opportunity to make any choices, I think the opportunity to choose Jesus will remain open until His actual appearing in the heavens. It doesn't "close" at the time of trouble, or the Sunday law, or "after the mark of the beast is implemented," or any other such arbitrary event. Now, if one can demonstrate otherwise from the Bible, I'll be happy to examine the evidence.


Originally Posted By: dedication
We are either fully committed to Christ and assured of salvation, or we are following the rebel, Satan, in rebellion to Christ and His laws, and thus have rejected salvation and eternal life.

I really think there has to be a third option here, that being the masses that have no idea what is going on, ie: neither "committed to Christ" or "following the rebel, Satan." Population growth is far out-stripping the rate at which the gospel is being spread, and if everybody must be given a fair shake at making an informed decision...Well, flat out Christ will never come. (Just an aside, I do not believe that Christ's coming is in any way dependent on "us." God will come when HIS time is ready. But don't get distracted by this.)

Just before he died the thief on the cross said to Jesus "Remember me" and Jesus said "You're in, Mate."

It's that simple.

We complicate it.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: Rick H] #181633
10/11/16 03:50 AM
10/11/16 03:50 AM
dedication  Offline
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The issue of probation I addressed at on this thread.

As to the idea that the gospel could never reach the masses...
Why limit God?

I believe things will work out so everyone will be brought to decision.

Rev. 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: Nadi] #181756
10/29/16 11:36 AM
10/29/16 11:36 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: dedication
Once probation closes -- either at death, or just prior to the second coming at the end of this earth's sinful history, there is no more opportunity to change our "salvation status".

While I agree that at death there is no more opportunity to make any choices,

Oh!? Which Bible texts says that? I found none! However, there is a law found in nNum 9:6-12 that says there is an opportunity for any man who missed keeping the 1st Passover(which symbolizes justification) to keep it on the 2nd month. (I will expand on this in the Are we at the close of probation?

Originally Posted By: nadi
I think the opportunity to choose Jesus will remain open until His actual appearing in the heavens. It doesn't "close" at the time of trouble, or the Sunday law, or "after the mark of the beast is implemented," or any other such arbitrary event. Now, if one can demonstrate otherwise from the Bible, I'll be happy to examine the evidence.

I agree. The opportunity to choose Jesus will remain open for a much longer time that goes beyond His second coming.

Paul mentioned that there was another gospel being preached in his days. My understanding is that other gospel is based on the Old Covenant -- Man's ability to keep his promise to keep all the law. I believe no man will be saved by that old covenant.

However, as we all know, the Lord made another covenant that is call the new covenant. The new covenant is based on God's ability to keep His promise to write all His laws in our heart. The new covenant is NOT DEPENDANT ON MAN's CHOICE like it is with the old covenant, but on God's ability to keep His Word.

What I perceived in this and other discussions, that a lot of misunderstanding is due to not realizing that the Lord made a new covenant that cancels out the old covenant. The Church body took a major change after the death of Jesus that Paul devoted most of his writings to contrast these two covenants and emphasizing the power of the new.

However, it didn't take long with the early church to revert back into the old covenant mentality. This "rebellion" (to put it in dedication's 2 camps limited type of view) was the Lord's plan (not the devils).

I view those that are still in the old covenant mindset whose faith is on Man's ability "to choose Jesus" {in following all that He has said} ... I don't view this as a well-informed rebellion, but a stage of spiritual growth that is necessary to come to understand that Man cannot keep that ridiculous promise he has made. Man thinks he can....that's typical but not a mature well informed position.

The attempt to try to keep the Old covenant is a necessary stage to teach us that we cannot keep the law and opens our minds to the new covenant(God's promise to write His laws in our heart). That's the only way man can keep the law(or be saved) -- it is thru the new covenant whose timing fulfillment is the Lord's and NOT Man's.

As Nadi has quoted...I believe the Lord will finish what He has started...and none is dependent on Man's choice but all is dependent on the Lord's ability to write all His laws in our hearts as He has vowed He would do.


Blessings
Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: Nadi] #181758
10/29/16 01:13 PM
10/29/16 01:13 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
I'm not real sure what you're flogging here, but let me clarify a few points from the way I see it.

We don't chose salvation, we chose Jesus.
We don't take anything to heaven, Jesus takes us.

Originally Posted By: dedication
...characters need to be transformed...
That is in God's job description.

Originally Posted By: dedication
...life on earth is probationary time...

As mentioned in the "probation" thread, this concept needs fleshing out, because I'm not finding a lot of support for this idea. People seem to use the term a lot assuming that everyone else "knows what they mean." In reality it does not seem to have a real clear definition.

"Probation" has 2 meanings:
1)the release of an offender from detention, subject to a period of good behavior under supervision.

and/or

2)the process or period of testing or observing the character or abilities of a person in a certain role, for example, a new employee.

Neither of these two seem to fit with "salvation theory" for lack of a better term.

So offer up your definition of "probation" and how/when/why it closes.


btw, we are now officially derailed. grin


Oooops sorry. The point I wanted to make about death has been addressed already.

As far as probation is concerned, probation is inevitable.

Last edited by Alchemy; 10/29/16 01:16 PM.
Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: Rick H] #181766
10/29/16 10:33 PM
10/29/16 10:33 PM
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Josh M  Offline
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Regarding the time at which judgment is final, i.e. the close of probation, and especially the idea of second chances beyond the second coming, I believe that there’s several places in the Bible showing that the time to be saved does not extend up to or after the moment of the second coming.


The wicked on that day are never described as repenting. Instead, they’re described as mourning, hiding, and expecting wrath.
Mat 24:30
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Rev 6:16-17
"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"



Already providing an answer to their question, the Bible describes only one class that will be able to stand.
Psa 24:3-4
"Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully."
Rev 14:5
"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."



We can have no expectation that we would be capable of finding a repentance left to the last minute. By then we would be "...hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Heb 3:13) and such a repentance would be for fear of imminent judgment, not due to sudden love of Jesus and holiness.

It’s only by coming to Jesus, with all of our sins, that we can be cleansed. We cannot cleanse ourselves, because if we could then Jesus did not have to die. This is an important point because Jesus, who officiates as our High Priest in Heaven, must be there to plead His blood so that our sins can be blotted out, just as the high priest on earth offered the blood of sacrifice in the temple. When Jesus leaves the temple to return here is when probation closes. At that time there will no longer be an intercessor for sin. The righteous having been made clean will not need one, for "where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin" (Heb 10:18), and to the wicked it will never again be offered.
Heb 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (KJV)
"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." (NIV)



For whether the wicked after have a second chance after the second coming, let’s look at the parables describing it in Matthew 25 and Luke 16. In the case of the 10 virgins, those who were not ready found only a closed door. For the servant who hid his master’s talent and did not increase it, what he had was taken away. The man who tried to participate in the wedding feast without the proper clothes was cast out. The Bible offers abundant hope for the salvation of the righteous, but absolutely zero hope for salvation to those who rejected it and the terms of it by the time of the second coming. It’s to the righteous that it’s said "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5) but those still with sins at the second coming have to hear the words "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Mat 7:23) Never is a second chance described because this is it; we’re already living our second chance right now. We have all sinned and are all given one life, this life, to be reconciled to God.

Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: Josh M] #181770
10/31/16 01:37 AM
10/31/16 01:37 AM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
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Originally Posted By: Josh M
Regarding the time at which judgment is final, i.e. the close of probation, and especially the idea of second chances beyond the second coming, I believe that there’s several places in the Bible showing that the time to be saved does not extend up to or after the moment of the second coming.


The wicked on that day are never described as repenting. Instead, they’re described as mourning, hiding, and expecting wrath.
Mat 24:30
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Rev 6:16-17
"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"



Already providing an answer to their question, the Bible describes only one class that will be able to stand.
Psa 24:3-4
"Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully."
Rev 14:5
"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."



We can have no expectation that we would be capable of finding a repentance left to the last minute. By then we would be "...hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Heb 3:13) and such a repentance would be for fear of imminent judgment, not due to sudden love of Jesus and holiness.

It’s only by coming to Jesus, with all of our sins, that we can be cleansed. We cannot cleanse ourselves, because if we could then Jesus did not have to die. This is an important point because Jesus, who officiates as our High Priest in Heaven, must be there to plead His blood so that our sins can be blotted out, just as the high priest on earth offered the blood of sacrifice in the temple. When Jesus leaves the temple to return here is when probation closes. At that time there will no longer be an intercessor for sin. The righteous having been made clean will not need one, for "where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin" (Heb 10:18), and to the wicked it will never again be offered.
Heb 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (KJV)
"so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him." (NIV)



For whether the wicked after have a second chance after the second coming, let’s look at the parables describing it in Matthew 25 and Luke 16. In the case of the 10 virgins, those who were not ready found only a closed door. For the servant who hid his master’s talent and did not increase it, what he had was taken away. The man who tried to participate in the wedding feast without the proper clothes was cast out. The Bible offers abundant hope for the salvation of the righteous, but absolutely zero hope for salvation to those who rejected it and the terms of it by the time of the second coming. It’s to the righteous that it’s said "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5) but those still with sins at the second coming have to hear the words "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Mat 7:23) Never is a second chance described because this is it; we’re already living our second chance right now. We have all sinned and are all given one life, this life, to be reconciled to God.


Welcome Josh M, I was blessed by your post.

Personally, in my studies of Scripture, the idea of a third option seems comforting to many. The Three Angels Messages don't mention a third option. I am not aware of a third option anywhere in Scripture! But, in the end, we all have to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: Josh M] #181791
11/01/16 03:25 PM
11/01/16 03:25 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Posts: 2,536
Canada
Welcome back to the forum Josh. I think you were addressing my posts, so I did an effort to reply back.

I'm sorry for this reply to be long but there were lots of things to address.
Originally Posted By: Josh M
Regarding the time at which judgment is final, i.e. the close of probation, and especially the idea of second chances beyond the second coming, I believe that there’s several places in the Bible showing that the time to be saved does not extend up to or after the moment of the second coming.


The wicked on that day are never described as repenting. Instead, they’re described as mourning, hiding, and expecting wrath.
Mat 24:30
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Rev 6:16-17
"And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Josh I agree with these texts but your application of these are lacking of the full scope that the law and other scriptures gives. My understanding is that the unfaithful servants who are believers will be mournful when they see that they didn't make the 1st Harvest which is the Barley Harvest. The first harvest constitute of the overcomers who are grown to be the leaders and will constitute Christ Body at His 2nd coming who will rule with Him during the Millennium. (Rev 5:10; 20:4-6)

Originally Posted By: Josh
Already providing an answer to their question

What question are you referring to? Are you referring to what you said at the beginning of your post: “the time at which judgment is final, i.e. the close of probation” or the OP’s question? Despite, you haven’t provided an Biblical answer to neither.

Originally Posted By: Josh
The Bible describes only one class that will be able to stand.
Psa 24:3-4
"Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully."
Rev 14:5
"And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

These texts and others of the sorts describes those that are groomed and elected to become the 144K – the overcomers – the body of Christ – the sons of the Melchisedek Order – and other names employed in the Bible to described this first harvest group that can be viewed as the Barley Company. Barley was the first crop to be harvested in the law.

Josh, according to the law there are 3 harvests not only 1 as your position assumes. The first harvest, the Barley Company, only constitute a small group of people -- the least in size of the 3 harvests. Paul and the law describes this first group as the firstfruits by which by purpose gives the promise of a greater harvests to come to the people. There are actually 2 other harvests after the Barley group.

Here are the harvests in order of their Feast seasons :

1. The Barley Company @ Passover : that represents Christ & His Body(the Overcomers) : These overcomers only overcame because Jesus work on them first and put them thru the fire (not a literal fire) first.. That’s the only reason. They are not better or more special than the others and they know it.

2. The Wheat Company @ Pentecost: that represents the Congregation (the Church)

3. The Grape Company @ Tabernacle: that represents the Nations and unbeleivers.

The first triage (separating the sheep[1.Barley Company] from the goats[2.Wheat Company]) happens at Jesus 2nd coming. The second triage (removing the abusing servants from the 2.Wheat Company and put them with the 3.Grape Company) happens after the Millennium.

So these two "cut off" time does exist; but these texts doesn't say that’s there's no other chances for the 2.Wheat Company or the 3. Grape Company. These two other harvests will matures in their own harvest process, own season and own time.

Most believers will fall in the Wheat harvest company and their works will be judged also by fire, but scripture is clear that that same fire will save them like fullers soap. Thus it is NOT a LITERAL FIRE they will be experiencing at that time. It is a figure of speech using physical earthly symbolism explaining spiritual realities to come.

1Co 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

In this text above, I believe Paul is describing the fate of the 2. Wheat company at the Great Judgment throne who are the "unfaithful servants" in Jesus' parables. From Rev 20:4-6 and other scriptures, we know the Barley company is already changed and been ruling with Christ already for 1000 years. So I believe, Paul is not talking about the Barley company, but the unfaithful servants that will undergo this Fire testing after the Millennium.

My understanding is most unfaithful servants will receive their reward after being tested by the fire. Many will only have "wood, hay, stubble" (symbolizes works from “the flesh” or aka “the carnal man” or aka as “the natural man”). At harvest, the outside woody stubble is first removed from the grain and burned in the fire. Do note that farmers never burns their grain at harvest. That fire only burns the “fleshy” works which is the outside shell that 1 Cor 3 indicates.

Notice that 1Cor 3 implies that some unfaithful believers(==2. Wheat company) will have valuable works that are "gold, silver, precious stones” which these will NOT burn in the fire and they will received their reward accordingly as describes in many of Jesus faithful & unfaithful servants parables. Again those that will receive a reward here, are NOT the Barley company that resurrected before the Millennium, but the Wheat company that resurrects after the Millennium.

Then in a case were an “unfaithful servants” is found having all his works being "wood, hay, stubble", 1Cor 3 says that despite all their works burns(meaning all the works he did in his life was all carnal -- none of it was commanded by the Lord) -- according to 1Cor 3:14 these people are still saved. They are still viewed by the Lord as valuable grain that can be used. Once all the stubble and hay are removed, the grain can be used for good food for the Lord's feast table.

Originally Posted By: Josh
We can have no expectation that we would be capable of finding a repentance left to the last minute. By then we would be "...hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Heb 3:13) and such a repentance would be for fear of imminent judgment, not due to sudden love of Jesus and holiness.

The statements above have so many holes and lacks. I will address a few :

1. What last minute are you talking about? God is not limited by time unless He specifies a time limit which He did in the Law of Jubilee. The law of Jubilee does NOT even allude remotely that salvation is only extended before the graves. That's not Biblical -- thus another teaching of men.

The law of Jubilee limit the time a sinner with or without a redeemer to pay his debt. All sins are reckoned as a debt.(check out the Lord's prayer...sin and debt is used interchangeably). This time limit is Grace built in the law. The Lord has bound Himself BY LAW to free all man at the time of the Jubilee and to cancels all debts whether the people has paid it all or not. I think you need to read Lev 25 where the Lord expressed these limits that He instituted in His plan of salvation.

2. BTW “sudden love of Jesus and holiness” does not happen without Jesus putting someone thru the fire first...because scripture is clear that "NONE seeketh God"(Rom 3:11). Everyone was hardened by sin for all have sinned.

3. In Is 45:23 the Lord swore that "every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance"... there is a genuine repentance that happens after the great White throne. (see Post#181160 for more info on this topic)

4. And then should I mention that there’s 3 levels of repentance represented in the Sanctuary with its 3 veils before entering each chambers. The veils symbolizes the tearing of the flesh before we can enter the chamber.

The 3 chambers are :

1)Outer Court where the congregation were allowed to enter and bring their sacrifices. This represents the Passover Level of faith where our Spiritual journey starts by being justified by applying Jesus blood on our heart altar

2)the Holy Place where the Levites were allowed but not the congregation. This represents the Pentecost Level of faith where the believer starts to learn hearing God's voice and serve Him

3)the Most Holy Place where the High Priests and His Sons were allowed and not the other Levites. This represents the Tabernacle Level of faith where the believer finally enter the Lord's rest. Meaning the believer doesn't speak his own words anymore or do his own works anymore. Like Jesus example on earth, he repeats only what He hears the Father says and he only do what He sees the Father doing.

Each chamber represents a level of spiritual maturity that each requires a tearing of the flesh(==repentance) before entering. Those that are in the Outer Court are not mature enough yet to work in the Holy Place and even less in the Most Holy Place. However, I believe at the end Jesus will succeed to shepherd everyone thru the 3 chambers and “subdue all things under His feet… so the Lord God can be all in all”(1Cor 15:28).

5. And then there’s the question of what type of seed you were created to be(based on Rom 9 and other texts of the sort). Not every one is a Barley seed. Some are Wheat seeds or grapes that requires different harvest tools and process. Each type of seeds have a different growing season and harvest time.

Originally Posted By: Josh
For whether the wicked after have a second chance after the second coming, let’s look at the parables describing it in Matthew 25 and Luke 16. In the case of the 10 virgins, those who were not ready found only a closed door.

The parables of the 10 virgins with oil and the faithful servants describes what will happen to the overcomers (the Barley company Harvest) versus the other believers that has not enough oil in their lamps (the Holy Spirit did not prepare them…thus they are not ready yet) who are also the “unfaithful servants”. So basically it is only talking about the first triage of the first two Harvest company who are all only the believers. It is not referring to the unbelievers in that parable.

Originally Posted By: josh
The Bible offers abundant hope for the salvation of the righteous

Josh the Bible tells us that Jesus came for the unrighteous or the loss. He didn't come to save the righteous.

Originally Posted By: josh
, but absolutely zero hope for salvation to those who rejected it and the terms of it by the time of the second coming. It’s to the righteous that it’s said "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Heb 13:5)

Paul is quoting Deut 4:31 there and the Lord is talking about His Church that you term as "the righteous one". For sure, they have been "imputed righteousness" like anyone else in the World but I think you would agree they are far from being righteous without the work of the fire(Holy Spirit) to remove all that dross and shaft.

So in essence I disagree with you, I think in Deut 4:31 the Lord is talking about everyone -- because Scripture says He is the Savior of the World(Jn 12:47, etc), all will repent(Is 45:23,etc...), and by the end[of the Jubilee -- 49,000 yrs(=antitype --1000 yrs per 1 Jubilee year)] He will succeed to have subdue everyone(Phil 3:21;etc...) by then.

Originally Posted By: josh
but those still with sins at the second coming have to hear the words "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." (Mat 7:23)

Josh, you are mis-applying this texts. This text are talking about the believers who has "prophesied in thy name" who has "cast out devils" and has "done wonderful works". In v.23 the point Jesus is making by saying "I never knew you" is that these works was not commanded by Him. Meaning whatever voice these believers heard; it wasn't His. All these works are not from Jesus and are only "wood, hay, stubble" because these believers never heard Jesus voice to do these things. So they acted according to their own will and not according to the Lord's will.


Blessings
Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: Josh M] #181792
11/01/16 03:48 PM
11/01/16 03:48 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: josh
Never is a second chance described because this is it; we’re already living our second chance right now. We have all sinned and are all given one life, this life, to be reconciled to God.

Show, me from the Bible where it says that the chance of salvation ends during our lifetime before Jesus 2nd coming. I have found none.


However we have in Num 9:6-12 stating that there is a 2nd opportunity for justification(Passover) offered to those that are defiled which the 2 cases covers everyone that will resurrect after the Millennium.

The Second Passover == A 2nd Opportunity for Justification For ALL

Num 9 states two reasons why some people were not being able to keep the first Passover.

a) Defiled because of touching a dead body (Num 9:6,7,10). In our state of mortality we are touching a “dead body”. So legally speaking this includes everyone that will resurrect at the 2nd resurrection after the Millennium -- scriptures refers to them as "dead" in Rev 20:12.

b)Defiled because has been away on a long journey (Num 9:10). Being away on a long journey is being away from our home which spiritually means being away from the Lord's house or spiritually speaking -- being away far away from the Lord.

In this TYPE, the Lord prophetically speaks of all who resurrects after the Millennium : the Wheat Company(the unfaithful believers) and the grape Company(non-believers). These people are given a 2nd opportunity to be justified. This 2nd opportunity is established by LAW.

This theory of Men that someone has to repent before the grave... doesn't hold the test of scriptures for 3 reasons(and there's more) that I have mention :

1. No scripture to support that

2. Num 9 which says everyone is given a 2nd opportunity for justification

3. the law of Jubilee establishes that EVERYONE is returned or restored to their original estate having their complete debt forgiven whether or not they have paid it before the time of Jubilee comes or not.


Blessings
Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: Rick H] #181799
11/01/16 09:55 PM
11/01/16 09:55 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,416
Midland
Elle, are you saying a literal allowance translates into a spiritual application in spite of evidence against such application?

You think the "grape Company" is saved?
Is it possible to disprove that or is that just a belief you have?
That is, what would it take to disprove that for you?

Re: What will we take to heaven....?? [Re: kland] #181806
11/02/16 04:22 PM
11/02/16 04:22 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, are you saying a literal allowance translates into a spiritual application

Kland what do you mean with "literal allowance"? Can you be more specific by using the 2nd Passover texts and statement I made that you are objecting.

Originally Posted By: kland
... in spite of evidence against such application?

Please provide these evidences.

Originally Posted By: kland
You think the "grape Company" is saved?

Yup! The Lord gave us as a pattern of 3 Harvests in His law by which in the Law these harvests are all harvested and the fruits of it consumed. This illustrates the plan of salvation. The whole law is prophetic and Jesus said every word of it will be fulfill and none of it will pass without being fulfilled.

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1Tim 2:4

Originally Posted By: kland
Is it possible to disprove that or is that just a belief you have?

Well, I don't care what I personally believe or what Mo or Jo believes either. What I care is the Lord's interpretation-view-intention-definition-etc.... that can only be behold by having taking all scriptures of the subject into account and bring these on the table to the Lord to teach you His interpretation of it, by which is only possible by hearing the Lord small voice and guidance when studying.

I very well know my understanding is lacking and needs adjustment. That's why I will always provide as much scriptures as a reasonable post can handle with my take of what it says. I am very open to be wrong but I need some sound scriptures support to be shown that.

Thus I have always invited you and anyone else here to really study, but most people are not here to study nor know how to be a real Biblical students. Most people are here to socialize which is fine to have other motives.

Originally Posted By: kland
That is, what would it take to disprove that for you?
Well you shouldn't be out to disprove anyone. Right? We all should know that we do not know all the truth and are under the Lord's tutelage(Gal 4;1Jn 2:27).

If the Lord draws us into a discussion, well its because He wants us to study it a little deeper, get more understanding, see how the Lord will guides the discussion, etc.... right?

However, to get a study-discussion going at times I do take someone post, like I do often with dedication, who does provide a good presentation of her understanding position with scriptures --- and then I go thru it and address all the specifics things that is not sound. It's not that I want to disprove dedication, I am exercising "testing all things". While doing that tedious exercise, many impressions comes from the way things are presented, look at words not looked before, look at scriptures at dedication's angle, etc... I always personally benefit from doing this exercise and it gets the discussion moving forward.

I am very grateful for anyone who want to disprove test what I say, because you may consider something that I haven't and see things I did not see before.

I strongly believe, like Ellen & James counseled us many times, that it is a Christian duty to study the Lord's words and tune our ears to better hear Him. My thing is we need to test all things and that's what I've been doing this seriously for the past what 9 years now????

I understand you don't agree with my position, but that position didn't come without serious personal studying behind it. To start, I do need sound scriptures. Then after studying all that you presented and if it agrees with all scriptures..... Then the next step would be to seek a confirmation of this from the Holy Spirit.

As I have invited many, including you, to truly study the question at hand, I would recommend to TEST any statement I make by first addressing the supporting scriptures brought forth by asking these following questions :

- is the scripture taken out of context?
- Is my paraphrase or statement based on that scripture reflects what the scriptures really says?
- Is there than one scripture used to base this statement?
- Are there other contradictory scriptures?
- Check the scripture translation -- is it a bias translation? are the key words true to its original source word in Hebrew or Greek.
- Do a word study of the topic in question to find God's definition of the subject via scriptures by finding the Hebrew and its correspondance Greek word and looking all the application of it in scriptures.
- Put aside your heart idols(your preconceived ideas of the topic) and ask the Lord to tell you what He thinks of the subject.

I hope that helps.


Blessings
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