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Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? #182799
03/16/17 06:10 PM
03/16/17 06:10 PM
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Nadi  Offline OP
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dedication, I have just read the document on your website entitled "Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?" As you stated, this is one of the most contended doctrines of SDA.

Most of the document was devoted to establishing that there will be a judgement and that all will stand before the throne of God and answer for our actions, etc. I do not disagree with this; we may differ on details but by and large I agree in a judgement to come.

However, in my current understanding of the topic of judgement, the Investigative Judgement as presented by Adventists is not the same as the final judgement before God's throne. Secondly, the IJ was not clearly presented as being Biblical in that there was essentially no mention in the document of the IJ specifically.

Are the two judgements the same? If so, how can that be in that Adventism teaches that the IJ began in 1844, and God's judgement is at the end of time?

Also, is the IJ biblical? This was not established. Please show a clear progression of texts and sources to substantiate this doctrine.

Please bear in mind that I am NOT an SDA, and therefore, with all due respect, I do not accept the authority of Ellen White. No offence intended. If you hope to show me the legitimacy of the IJ, a strong argument would not include reference to her or her works.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #182800
03/17/17 05:44 AM
03/17/17 05:44 AM
dedication  Offline
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The problem one faces in answering your question is the fact the understanding is based on understanding other Biblical doctrines.

For example, a person believing in predestination would not understand the reason for a pre-advent judgment.
The person who believes Christ will come to old Jerusalem and convert the nations, establishing a kingship over present nations, would not understand the function of the pre-advent judgment.

However, for those who believe the Second Advent of Christ ushers in a decisive, complete end to life on earth as we know it, and everyone is either given eternal life, or facing eternal death at that point, the understanding that a thorough and just case was made with all the angels as witnesses, is a very reassuring thought.

I'll give you a brief outline of texts --

The foundational texts are found in Daniel 7.

There in Daniel chapter seven we see the symbolic beasts, representing nations, rising one after the other seeking dominion over the earth.
Lion -Babylon, Bear-Persia, Leopard-Greece, terrible beast - Rome. Rome divides into ten and a little horn arises to continue the legacy of Rome in the form of the Vatican.

At this point in the chapter our attention is directed from earth to heaven.

Quote:
Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels as burning fire.
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


Definitely a judgment scene. But Who is there? And where is this judgment? The Ancient of Days (God the Father) and innumerable angels are present.
There is no reference of people being there.
This judgment is in heaven, it is not here on earth.

Now notice who is brought before Ancient of Days.

Quote:
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.


Who is this "Son of Man" who is declared worthy, and given the dominion?
A study of the gospels will reveal that "the Son of Man" is Christ Who took upon Himself humanity.
Those nations all want the dominion of the earth. But Christ, "the son of man" is given the dominion.

Adam lost the God given dominion to the human race because of sin.
Christ, standing in Adam's place regains that dominion.

Rev. 5:12 shows the heavenly hosts
Quote:
5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


So Christ won back for humanity what Adam lost.
The chapter also tells us the "saints" will inherit this kingdom that Christ, as the Son of Man has won back. But who are these saints?
We turn to Revelation for the answer, for Christ does something before Father and that vast company of angels.

Quote:
Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


The book of life -- everyone whose name remains in that book, must have their name confessed before the Father and the angels.

Remember this judgment is in the context of the little horn beast as well. That little horn is the papacy which claims to be in close ties with Christ-- Christ's representative no less. But not everyone who says "Lord, lord" will have their names left in the book of life. (see Matt. 7:21)

The names Christ confesses before the Father and the multitude of angels are the "overcomers", those who have clean garments of white, (washed in the blood of the Lamb, we read in other texts) their names are permanently retained in the Lamb's book of life.

Quote:
Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given in favor of the saints of the most High;


The little horn is judged as treasonous usurper, a counterfeit.
But we ask, isn't the little horn (papacy) Christian, and aren't all "Christians" believers in Christ and "saved"? --
no -- the preAdvent judgment considers every name and reveals who the true Christians are, and which ones are not.

When Christ comes the saved will be caught up in the clouds to meet Christ 1 Thess. 4:16-18 The living unsaved, will perish in the light of His coming. 2 Thess. 2:8

When Christ comes the reward is already "with Him".

Quote:
Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be
.


Yes, the preAdvent judgment is different from the final judgment at the end of the 1000 years, depicted in Rev. 20, when everyone who has ever lived will stand before the great white throne. There the book of life is once again opened, and everyone whose name is not in that book is not saved. The saved will be inside God's city and outside will be the unsaved. (see Rev.22:15). All the questions as to why person A was saved while person B is lost will be answered, forever obliterating any doubts of God's fairness.



Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: dedication] #182805
03/17/17 04:36 PM
03/17/17 04:36 PM
N
Nadi  Offline OP
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dedication, thank you for your reply.

In your reply you addressed the question of a judgement, which I previously indicated that I also believe in. It did not, however, address the question of WHEN this judgement is. You have not established:

1. That Scripture speaks of and describes TWO judgements.
2. That the judgement you describe began in 1844.

Ideally, strong scholarship requires that every statement be supported by reference to a source, such as another author, peer-reviewed publication, research, historical fact, etc. This is admittedly an "ideal" and I don't think it is ever achieved 100%, but when building or supporting an argument one should try to approach it as nearly as possible.

Otherwise all you have presented is Bible texts ("proof-texts") and your opinion.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #182818
03/19/17 01:50 AM
03/19/17 01:50 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Ideally, strong scholarship requires that every statement be supported by reference to a source, such as another author, peer-reviewed publication, research, historical fact, etc.

So you wish the opinions of men?
I already know if I quote the studies of those who believe in the pre-Advent judgment you will call it "biased" and reject them.
Of course those who reject the pre-Advent judgment would not write support for it.

So why should I go to the opinions of men to prove it?

The only proof that is important is that the Bible substantiates this belief.

So you believe there is only one judgment?
When would you suppose that judgment to take place?
Do you believe in the rapture prior to the 1000 years?
Would a just God lay out before the angels why some are raptured and others not even though both may claim to "believe"?

If you do believe in the rapture, what version of the rapture do you believe (just the rapture of the church to escape a seven year tribulation or the coming of Christ to end the world as we know it and take the redeemed of all ages to heaven for 1000 years? )
Do you believe like some do that Christ will reign here over sinful nations forcing them to convert under His Theocracy?
Or do you believe like Elle that everyone will essentially be saved in the end and a judgment is only necessary to determine the amount of re-education each needs to receive?

There are so many conflicting doctrines floating around that have a substantial bearing on how people perceive the idea of God's "judgment" that much of what is shared just doesn't fit into their picture of eschatology, so they categorically reject it. And each can find sources of authors to support their peculiar configuration.

To go to the opinions of men for the answer is seeking it in the wrong source. There is no history book on the happenings in heaven, that knowledge can only be known through Divine Revelation. What the historians write on the subject are just their opinions built on nothing less than their often out of context, "proof texts".

One must go to scripture -- and get the whole story of redemption as portrayed there to figure out what God has revealed, and compare the conflicting opinions of men with that of scripture, for the so called scholars are not all right no matter how many PhD's they have accumulated.

However, any serious reader of scripture will find different stages of judgment throughout the scriptures.
There is an "investigation" judgment, there is vindication judgment, as well as condemnation judgment, and there is executive judgment.



Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #182819
03/19/17 03:36 AM
03/19/17 03:36 AM
dedication  Offline
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The Biblical passage I presented was not just a "proof text" it was a whole chapter:

Daniel 7,
Along with some supporting texts from Revelation.

That chapter gives an outline of history, as I pointed out.
There we see the symbolic beasts, representing actual nations which history definitely supports, as having risen one after the other seeking dominion over the earth.
Lion -Babylon, Bear-Persia, Leopard-Greece, terrible beast - Rome. Rome divides into ten and a little horn arises to continue the legacy of Rome in the form of the Vatican.

That's all part of Daniel 7,
That little horn persecutes God's saints for 1260 years.

For a study on the 1260 years see
Prophetic 1260 day/years of Prophecy

All the reformers attributed the 1260 day/years to the domination of the papacy. They had varying starting and ending dates, and it wasn't until Napoleon's time that 1798 became a recognized end point for the 1260 years.

Even Wikipedia in "Day-year principle" says "Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians".

Just because modern religion scholars reject reformation understanding does not change that fact. Those reformers experienced it, modern theologians are trying to deny it.

Daniel 7 describes the judgment when the heavenly host open the books, which takes place after the 126o years which ended in 1798, while Daniel 8 deals more closely with the time.

Again Daniel chapter eight takes us through history -- there's the ram of Persia, that grew great, (vs.4) the goat of Grecia, that grew very great,(vs.8) but that breaks into four divisions, and next emerges a great horn out of one of the winds (directions) of the earth that grows EXCEEDINGLY great.(vs9) This is NOT Epiphanies, who most certainly did not grow exceedingly great outdoing both Persia and Grecia. This horn is Rome.

Next in verse 14, we have the cleansing of the sanctuary a reference to the "day of atonement" in Israel's prophetic yearly feasts.

The question is asked "How long the vision?" vs 13

Well the vision began with Persia, includes Grecia and Rome and ends with the cleansing of the sanctuary. So the 2300 days are also symbolic years. So how long the vision till the judgment typified by the day of Atonement in Israel's prophetic calendar would begin? It began sometime 2300 years after a starting point in the history of the Persian Empire (the Media/Persian Empire that began in 550 BC and helped rebuild the Jewish nation). Daniel 9 details the point in Persian history is linked to a certain decree being issued).
Thus the 2300 years takes us to a point in the 1800's.














Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #182820
03/19/17 04:16 AM
03/19/17 04:16 AM
J
Josh M  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
Colorado, USA
Investigation before judgment


I think the word "judgement" is being used here in two ways- the process of judging and the act of executing that judgment. A good judge doesn't pass judgment, both finalizing and executing it, before investigation. The final judgment must therefore be preceded by investigation through which the judgment is reached. This period of investigation is a component of the final judgment.

We see this sort of thing happen with Sodom in Genesis 18:21. "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto Me; and if not, I will know." God, being infinite, already knew the guilt of Sodom just as well as that of Adam, Eve, and Cain when they were asked what they had done, but it's evident from these cases that God still does investigate in His own person just as the judgment is also personally issued from God's throne. In those cases it was localized, while the investigative judgment that we refer to is global.


An intermission in judgment


1 Corinthians 6
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
When does our own judging of the world and angels happen? In this present life the most we can accomplish is to judge the things pertaining to this life, as Paul was exhorting the Corinthians to do instead of taking each other to court. So when will we judge angels? We don't even know the name of one angel that followed Satan. This must therefore happen after we reach Heaven and can look through the books.

Revelation 20 explains this, saying:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them ... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
There's a judgment scene here. This is when the wicked dead, who "lived not again until the thousand years were finished", and the angels are being judged by the righteous.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Satan then deceives the nations and gathers Gog and Magog (representative of the enemies of God) which, now that the thousand years have expired, have been raised back to life. True to their irredeemably fallen characters they obey Satan and in verse 8 attempt to attack God's people. Satan is cast into the lake of fire and fire from God devours the wicked. Remember, the context here is that what is being described is after the thousand years.

In verse 11 we start seeing this same scene from another angle. The dead in verses 12 and 13 are here being judged out of the books. We can know that these are the wicked dead and it's after the thousand years for several reasons.

In verse 13 the sea, death, and hell give up the dead that were in them, which is describing a resurrection. Verse 14 then mentions the lake of fire, which as we saw back in verse 10 is present after the thousand years. Verse 6 said that those "that hath part in the first resurrection" are not harmed by the second death, while verses 14 and 15 say that those who were judged guilty at this time are cast into the lake of fire and receive the second death. This judgment is therefore after the thousand years.


Focus of the investigative judgment


Just as the Hebrews in Egypt were sealed to mark who would be spared, and the Jews in Ezekiel's vision of chapter 9 were also sealed for the same purpose, the investigative judgment preceding the second advent of Jesus is more about determining who makes up God's people and bringing them to Heaven than about executing a final judgment on the wicked. That, as explained in Revelation 20, is set aside until after the thousand years and after the righteous have judged the wicked.

The current investigative judgment is focused on all who have ever claimed to belong to God; those who looked expectantly for the first advent, those who professed to accept Christ and look for the second advent, and those gentiles who never heard of the God of Abraham but did hear their conscience and were a law unto themselves.

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: dedication] #182838
03/20/17 05:00 PM
03/20/17 05:00 PM
N
Nadi  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: dedication
So you wish the opinions of men?...
...So why should I go to the opinions of men to prove it?...
...To go to the opinions of men for the answer is seeking it in the wrong source.

Not really following that line of thought, since all you have offered me so far is YOUR opinion.??? dunno

Originally Posted By: dedication
I already know if I quote the studies of those who believe in the pre-Advent judgment you will call it "biased" and reject them.

This is not true, it is an assumption on your part. If those studies are adequately supported they must be taken seriously, bias or no bias.

Originally Posted By: dedication
The only proof that is important is that the Bible substantiates this belief.
True. But you have failed to demonstrate biblical support. Besides, I'm not really looking for "proof," just support.

Originally Posted By: dedication
What the historians write on the subject are just their opinions built on nothing less than their often out of context, "proof texts".
Also not true. Their "opinions" are based on documented, peer-reviewed research. And sometimes others disagree with them. But always based on some evidence.

Originally Posted By: dedication
However, any serious reader of scripture will find different stages of judgment throughout the scriptures.
There is an "investigation" judgment, there is vindication judgment, as well as condemnation judgment, and there is executive judgment.

Please provide one text for each of your four "judgements."


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #182933
03/25/17 07:00 PM
03/25/17 07:00 PM
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Nadi  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2016
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bump

Just bumping this thread for dedication, or anyone else who would like to help her out.

Because at this point it appears that the IJ lacks a Biblical foundation.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #182936
03/25/17 08:08 PM
03/25/17 08:08 PM
J
Josh M  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 63
Colorado, USA
What about what I posted? smile

Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi] #182946
03/25/17 11:36 PM
03/25/17 11:36 PM
dedication  Offline
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I offered you scripture, showing you the Biblical foundation of the Judgment -- which you won't even look at, in it's place you ask for scholarship, other authors, and peer review articles. I don't have time to wade through a lot of magazines, my studies are from scripture.

I will only offer you scripture.

The foundational texts are found in Daniel 7.
READ THE CHAPTER

That chapter gives an outline of history, as I pointed out.
There we see the symbolic beasts, representing actual nations which history definitely supports, as having risen one after the other seeking dominion over the earth.
Lion -Babylon, Bear-Persia, Leopard-Greece, terrible beast - Rome. Rome divides into ten and a little horn arises to continue the legacy of Rome in the form of the Vatican.

That "horn"
7:25 shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
1260 years study

I gave you a link of the study of the "time,times and dividing of time which equal 1260 years.
All the reformers attributed the 1260 day/years to the domination of the papacy. They had varying starting and ending dates, and it wasn't until Napoleon's time that 1798 became a recognized end point for the 1260 years.

Even Wikipedia in "Day-year principle" says "Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians".

Daniel 7 describes the judgment when the heavenly host open the books after the 1260 years --

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels as burning fire.
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


This is a judgment scene however note the proceedings which occur during that judgment.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.


Jesus comes before the ancient of Days,
He is not coming to earth,
He is not gathering the nations
Jesus, the Son of Man is brought before the ancient of Days.

A study of the gospels will reveal that "the Son of Man" is Christ Who took upon Himself humanity. (See Matt. 16:13,16; 18:11
Those nations all want the dominion of the earth. But Christ, "the son of man" is given the dominion.

Adam lost the God given dominion to the human race because of sin.
Christ, standing in Adam's place regains that dominion. (compare Romans 5:17)

The chapter also tells us the "saints" will inherit this kingdom that Christ, as the Son of Man has won back.

7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. But who are these saints?

We turn to Revelation for the answer, for Christ does something before Father and that vast company of angels.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Next let's look at Revelation 14

The first angel's message --

14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


This period of investigative judgment is ushered in by a solemn proclamation to the inhabitants of the earth; and this investigative work embraces the closing years of human probation.

The angel of Rev.14:6,7, is preaching the everlasting gospel, so this represents some part of the great gospel proclamation.

This fact alone is decisive that this proclamation concerning the hour of God's judgment must be made while human probation still lasts, it is made while mankind still has a choice to choose to respond to the gospel or reject it.
Two other solemn announcements follows the first angel, as a second and a third angel appear.
And still, in those following two messages it is evident that the human family are still in probationary time -- the gospel call can still be accepted or rejected when the third angel declares that "if any man worship the beast . . . the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God. . . . Here is the patience of the saints." (see Rev. 14:8-12)

This is a consecutive prophecy, as several expressions plainly indicate. And then we see still another angel after the third angel, coming crying with a loud voice to thrust in the sickle and reap for the time is come to harvest the earth for it is ripe-- and we read that the Son of man is then seen upon the white cloud after all these solemn proclamations have been made.

That this announcement of the hour of God's judgment is here, precedes the advent of Christ, and is addressed to people while they are still in a position to accept or reject the gospel, is clearly proven in the fourteenth chapter of Revelation.

This gospel call to recognize that "the hour of His judgment HAS come is to "every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,". There is an important part of the judgment work which precedes the coming of Christ, which initiates this urgent call of the three angels in the last years of earth's history, and, as has been already shown, this judgment is the work of Christ presenting the names of all those who have overcome by His blood and power to the vast multitudes in heaven, that their names may be retained in the book of life. (See Rev. 3:5)

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you." Acts 3:19,20.


It's clear either our sins are blotted out, or our names are blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. The last gospel message calling the inhabitants of earth to partake of salvation, includes the announcement "the hour of His judgment HAS come".

Once we stand before the white throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years -- it will be too late too change.













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by Daryl. 02/29/24 11:21 AM
Should Walter Veight have preached this sermon?
by dedication. 02/21/24 05:28 PM
Labor Unions and Adventist
by Rick H. 02/20/24 01:59 PM
Spiritualism: Across The Gulf...
by Rick H. 02/20/24 01:52 PM
Samuele Bacchiocchi & Recent Article Concerns
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