dedication, I have just read the document on your website entitled "Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?" As you stated, this is one of the most contended doctrines of SDA.

Most of the document was devoted to establishing that there will be a judgement and that all will stand before the throne of God and answer for our actions, etc. I do not disagree with this; we may differ on details but by and large I agree in a judgement to come.

However, in my current understanding of the topic of judgement, the Investigative Judgement as presented by Adventists is not the same as the final judgement before God's throne. Secondly, the IJ was not clearly presented as being Biblical in that there was essentially no mention in the document of the IJ specifically.

Are the two judgements the same? If so, how can that be in that Adventism teaches that the IJ began in 1844, and God's judgement is at the end of time?

Also, is the IJ biblical? This was not established. Please show a clear progression of texts and sources to substantiate this doctrine.

Please bear in mind that I am NOT an SDA, and therefore, with all due respect, I do not accept the authority of Ellen White. No offence intended. If you hope to show me the legitimacy of the IJ, a strong argument would not include reference to her or her works.

The problem one faces in answering your question is the fact the understanding is based on understanding other Biblical doctrines.

For example, a person believing in predestination would not understand the reason for a pre-advent judgment.
The person who believes Christ will come to old Jerusalem and convert the nations, establishing a kingship over present nations, would not understand the function of the pre-advent judgment.

However, for those who believe the Second Advent of Christ ushers in a decisive, complete end to life on earth as we know it, and everyone is either given eternal life, or facing eternal death at that point, the understanding that a thorough and just case was made with all the angels as witnesses, is a very reassuring thought.

I'll give you a brief outline of texts --

The foundational texts are found in Daniel 7.

There in Daniel chapter seven we see the symbolic beasts, representing nations, rising one after the other seeking dominion over the earth.
Lion -Babylon, Bear-Persia, Leopard-Greece, terrible beast - Rome. Rome divides into ten and a little horn arises to continue the legacy of Rome in the form of the Vatican.

At this point in the chapter our attention is directed from earth to heaven.



Definitely a judgment scene. But Who is there? And where is this judgment? The Ancient of Days (God the Father) and innumerable angels are present.
There is no reference of people being there.
This judgment is in heaven, it is not here on earth.

Now notice who is brought before Ancient of Days.



Who is this "Son of Man" who is declared worthy, and given the dominion?
A study of the gospels will reveal that "the Son of Man" is Christ Who took upon Himself humanity.
Those nations all want the dominion of the earth. But Christ, "the son of man" is given the dominion.

Adam lost the God given dominion to the human race because of sin.
Christ, standing in Adam's place regains that dominion.

Rev. 5:12 shows the heavenly hosts


So Christ won back for humanity what Adam lost.
The chapter also tells us the "saints" will inherit this kingdom that Christ, as the Son of Man has won back. But who are these saints?
We turn to Revelation for the answer, for Christ does something before Father and that vast company of angels.



The book of life -- everyone whose name remains in that book, must have their name confessed before the Father and the angels.

Remember this judgment is in the context of the little horn beast as well. That little horn is the papacy which claims to be in close ties with Christ-- Christ's representative no less. But not everyone who says "Lord, lord" will have their names left in the book of life. (see Matt. 7:21)

The names Christ confesses before the Father and the multitude of angels are the "overcomers", those who have clean garments of white, (washed in the blood of the Lamb, we read in other texts) their names are permanently retained in the Lamb's book of life.



The little horn is judged as treasonous usurper, a counterfeit.
But we ask, isn't the little horn (papacy) Christian, and aren't all "Christians" believers in Christ and "saved"? --
no -- the preAdvent judgment considers every name and reveals who the true Christians are, and which ones are not.

When Christ comes the saved will be caught up in the clouds to meet Christ 1 Thess. 4:16-18 The living unsaved, will perish in the light of His coming. 2 Thess. 2:8

When Christ comes the reward is already "with Him".

.


Yes, the preAdvent judgment is different from the final judgment at the end of the 1000 years, depicted in Rev. 20, when everyone who has ever lived will stand before the great white throne. There the book of life is once again opened, and everyone whose name is not in that book is not saved. The saved will be inside God's city and outside will be the unsaved. (see Rev.22:15). All the questions as to why person A was saved while person B is lost will be answered, forever obliterating any doubts of God's fairness.

dedication, thank you for your reply.

In your reply you addressed the question of a judgement, which I previously indicated that I also believe in. It did not, however, address the question of WHEN this judgement is. You have not established:

1. That Scripture speaks of and describes TWO judgements.
2. That the judgement you describe began in 1844.

Ideally, strong scholarship requires that every statement be supported by reference to a source, such as another author, peer-reviewed publication, research, historical fact, etc. This is admittedly an "ideal" and I don't think it is ever achieved 100%, but when building or supporting an argument one should try to approach it as nearly as possible.

Otherwise all you have presented is Bible texts ("proof-texts") and your opinion.

So you wish the opinions of men?
I already know if I quote the studies of those who believe in the pre-Advent judgment you will call it "biased" and reject them.
Of course those who reject the pre-Advent judgment would not write support for it.

So why should I go to the opinions of men to prove it?

The only proof that is important is that the Bible substantiates this belief.

So you believe there is only one judgment?
When would you suppose that judgment to take place?
Do you believe in the rapture prior to the 1000 years?
Would a just God lay out before the angels why some are raptured and others not even though both may claim to "believe"?

If you do believe in the rapture, what version of the rapture do you believe (just the rapture of the church to escape a seven year tribulation or the coming of Christ to end the world as we know it and take the redeemed of all ages to heaven for 1000 years? )
Do you believe like some do that Christ will reign here over sinful nations forcing them to convert under His Theocracy?
Or do you believe like Elle that everyone will essentially be saved in the end and a judgment is only necessary to determine the amount of re-education each needs to receive?

There are so many conflicting doctrines floating around that have a substantial bearing on how people perceive the idea of God's "judgment" that much of what is shared just doesn't fit into their picture of eschatology, so they categorically reject it. And each can find sources of authors to support their peculiar configuration.

To go to the opinions of men for the answer is seeking it in the wrong source. There is no history book on the happenings in heaven, that knowledge can only be known through Divine Revelation. What the historians write on the subject are just their opinions built on nothing less than their often out of context, "proof texts".

One must go to scripture -- and get the whole story of redemption as portrayed there to figure out what God has revealed, and compare the conflicting opinions of men with that of scripture, for the so called scholars are not all right no matter how many PhD's they have accumulated.

However, any serious reader of scripture will find different stages of judgment throughout the scriptures.
There is an "investigation" judgment, there is vindication judgment, as well as condemnation judgment, and there is executive judgment.

The Biblical passage I presented was not just a "proof text" it was a whole chapter:

Daniel 7,
Along with some supporting texts from Revelation.

That chapter gives an outline of history, as I pointed out.
There we see the symbolic beasts, representing actual nations which history definitely supports, as having risen one after the other seeking dominion over the earth.
Lion -Babylon, Bear-Persia, Leopard-Greece, terrible beast - Rome. Rome divides into ten and a little horn arises to continue the legacy of Rome in the form of the Vatican.

That's all part of Daniel 7,
That little horn persecutes God's saints for 1260 years.

For a study on the 1260 years see
Prophetic 1260 day/years of Prophecy

All the reformers attributed the 1260 day/years to the domination of the papacy. They had varying starting and ending dates, and it wasn't until Napoleon's time that 1798 became a recognized end point for the 1260 years.

Even Wikipedia in "Day-year principle" says "Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians".

Just because modern religion scholars reject reformation understanding does not change that fact. Those reformers experienced it, modern theologians are trying to deny it.

Daniel 7 describes the judgment when the heavenly host open the books, which takes place after the 126o years which ended in 1798, while Daniel 8 deals more closely with the time.

Again Daniel chapter eight takes us through history -- there's the ram of Persia, that grew great, (vs.4) the goat of Grecia, that grew very great,(vs.8) but that breaks into four divisions, and next emerges a great horn out of one of the winds (directions) of the earth that grows EXCEEDINGLY great.(vs9) This is NOT Epiphanies, who most certainly did not grow exceedingly great outdoing both Persia and Grecia. This horn is Rome.

Next in verse 14, we have the cleansing of the sanctuary a reference to the "day of atonement" in Israel's prophetic yearly feasts.

The question is asked "How long the vision?" vs 13

Well the vision began with Persia, includes Grecia and Rome and ends with the cleansing of the sanctuary. So the 2300 days are also symbolic years. So how long the vision till the judgment typified by the day of Atonement in Israel's prophetic calendar would begin? It began sometime 2300 years after a starting point in the history of the Persian Empire (the Media/Persian Empire that began in 550 BC and helped rebuild the Jewish nation). Daniel 9 details the point in Persian history is linked to a certain decree being issued).
Thus the 2300 years takes us to a point in the 1800's.

Investigation before judgment


I think the word "judgement" is being used here in two ways- the process of judging and the act of executing that judgment. A good judge doesn't pass judgment, both finalizing and executing it, before investigation. The final judgment must therefore be preceded by investigation through which the judgment is reached. This period of investigation is a component of the final judgment.

We see this sort of thing happen with Sodom in Genesis 18:21. "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto Me; and if not, I will know." God, being infinite, already knew the guilt of Sodom just as well as that of Adam, Eve, and Cain when they were asked what they had done, but it's evident from these cases that God still does investigate in His own person just as the judgment is also personally issued from God's throne. In those cases it was localized, while the investigative judgment that we refer to is global.


An intermission in judgment


1 Corinthians 6
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
When does our own judging of the world and angels happen? In this present life the most we can accomplish is to judge the things pertaining to this life, as Paul was exhorting the Corinthians to do instead of taking each other to court. So when will we judge angels? We don't even know the name of one angel that followed Satan. This must therefore happen after we reach Heaven and can look through the books.

Revelation 20 explains this, saying:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them ... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
There's a judgment scene here. This is when the wicked dead, who "lived not again until the thousand years were finished", and the angels are being judged by the righteous.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Satan then deceives the nations and gathers Gog and Magog (representative of the enemies of God) which, now that the thousand years have expired, have been raised back to life. True to their irredeemably fallen characters they obey Satan and in verse 8 attempt to attack God's people. Satan is cast into the lake of fire and fire from God devours the wicked. Remember, the context here is that what is being described is after the thousand years.

In verse 11 we start seeing this same scene from another angle. The dead in verses 12 and 13 are here being judged out of the books. We can know that these are the wicked dead and it's after the thousand years for several reasons.

In verse 13 the sea, death, and hell give up the dead that were in them, which is describing a resurrection. Verse 14 then mentions the lake of fire, which as we saw back in verse 10 is present after the thousand years. Verse 6 said that those "that hath part in the first resurrection" are not harmed by the second death, while verses 14 and 15 say that those who were judged guilty at this time are cast into the lake of fire and receive the second death. This judgment is therefore after the thousand years.


Focus of the investigative judgment


Just as the Hebrews in Egypt were sealed to mark who would be spared, and the Jews in Ezekiel's vision of chapter 9 were also sealed for the same purpose, the investigative judgment preceding the second advent of Jesus is more about determining who makes up God's people and bringing them to Heaven than about executing a final judgment on the wicked. That, as explained in Revelation 20, is set aside until after the thousand years and after the righteous have judged the wicked.

The current investigative judgment is focused on all who have ever claimed to belong to God; those who looked expectantly for the first advent, those who professed to accept Christ and look for the second advent, and those gentiles who never heard of the God of Abraham but did hear their conscience and were a law unto themselves.

Not really following that line of thought, since all you have offered me so far is YOUR opinion.???


This is not true, it is an assumption on your part. If those studies are adequately supported they must be taken seriously, bias or no bias.

True. But you have failed to demonstrate biblical support. Besides, I'm not really looking for "proof," just support.

Also not true. Their "opinions" are based on documented, peer-reviewed research. And sometimes others disagree with them. But always based on some evidence.


Please provide one text for each of your four "judgements."

Just bumping this thread for dedication, or anyone else who would like to help her out.

Because at this point it appears that the IJ lacks a Biblical foundation.

What about what I posted?

I offered you scripture, showing you the Biblical foundation of the Judgment -- which you won't even look at, in it's place you ask for scholarship, other authors, and peer review articles. I don't have time to wade through a lot of magazines, my studies are from scripture.

I will only offer you scripture.

The foundational texts are found in Daniel 7.
READ THE CHAPTER

That chapter gives an outline of history, as I pointed out.
There we see the symbolic beasts, representing actual nations which history definitely supports, as having risen one after the other seeking dominion over the earth.
Lion -Babylon, Bear-Persia, Leopard-Greece, terrible beast - Rome. Rome divides into ten and a little horn arises to continue the legacy of Rome in the form of the Vatican.

That "horn"
7:25 shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
1260 years study

I gave you a link of the study of the "time,times and dividing of time which equal 1260 years.
All the reformers attributed the 1260 day/years to the domination of the papacy. They had varying starting and ending dates, and it wasn't until Napoleon's time that 1798 became a recognized end point for the 1260 years.

Even Wikipedia in "Day-year principle" says "Protestant Reformers were well established on the day/year principle and it was also accepted by many Christian groups, ministers, and theologians".

Daniel 7 describes the judgment when the heavenly host open the books after the 1260 years --

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels as burning fire.
7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

This is a judgment scene however note the proceedings which occur during that judgment.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus comes before the ancient of Days,
He is not coming to earth,
He is not gathering the nations
Jesus, the Son of Man is brought before the ancient of Days.

A study of the gospels will reveal that "the Son of Man" is Christ Who took upon Himself humanity. (See Matt. 16:13,16; 18:11
Those nations all want the dominion of the earth. But Christ, "the son of man" is given the dominion.

Adam lost the God given dominion to the human race because of sin.
Christ, standing in Adam's place regains that dominion. (compare Romans 5:17)

The chapter also tells us the "saints" will inherit this kingdom that Christ, as the Son of Man has won back.

7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. But who are these saints?

We turn to Revelation for the answer, for Christ does something before Father and that vast company of angels.

Rev. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Next let's look at Revelation 14

The first angel's message --

14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

This period of investigative judgment is ushered in by a solemn proclamation to the inhabitants of the earth; and this investigative work embraces the closing years of human probation.

The angel of Rev.14:6,7, is preaching the everlasting gospel, so this represents some part of the great gospel proclamation.

This fact alone is decisive that this proclamation concerning the hour of God's judgment must be made while human probation still lasts, it is made while mankind still has a choice to choose to respond to the gospel or reject it.
Two other solemn announcements follows the first angel, as a second and a third angel appear.
And still, in those following two messages it is evident that the human family are still in probationary time -- the gospel call can still be accepted or rejected when the third angel declares that "if any man worship the beast . . . the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God. . . . Here is the patience of the saints." (see Rev. 14:8-12)

This is a consecutive prophecy, as several expressions plainly indicate. And then we see still another angel after the third angel, coming crying with a loud voice to thrust in the sickle and reap for the time is come to harvest the earth for it is ripe-- and we read that the Son of man is then seen upon the white cloud after all these solemn proclamations have been made.

That this announcement of the hour of God's judgment is here, precedes the advent of Christ, and is addressed to people while they are still in a position to accept or reject the gospel, is clearly proven in the fourteenth chapter of Revelation.

This gospel call to recognize that "the hour of His judgment HAS come is to "every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,". There is an important part of the judgment work which precedes the coming of Christ, which initiates this urgent call of the three angels in the last years of earth's history, and, as has been already shown, this judgment is the work of Christ presenting the names of all those who have overcome by His blood and power to the vast multitudes in heaven, that their names may be retained in the book of life. (See Rev. 3:5)

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you." Acts 3:19,20.

It's clear either our sins are blotted out, or our names are blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. The last gospel message calling the inhabitants of earth to partake of salvation, includes the announcement "the hour of His judgment HAS come".

Once we stand before the white throne judgment at the end of the 1000 years -- it will be too late too change.

Josh,

There are, at this point, two questions I am asking, or two areas of clarification:

1. That Scripture speaks of and describes TWO judgements.

and

2. That the judgement you describe [the IJ] began in 1844. (See post #182805)

I read your post several times in an attempt to get a good sense of what you are proposing. The majority of it did not address the questions.

I will, however, comment on the last part of your post.





As an aside, and not related to the topic of this thread, please explain the following idea, with reference to Acts 4:12.

...and those gentiles who never heard of the God of Abraham but did hear their conscience and were a law unto themselves.

Continued from previous page

The second coming or advent of our Lord is an "executionary" judgment.
That is --
once the first three angels of Revelation 14 have given their warning message which announces the preadvent judgment, then we read --
Rev. 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The good and the bad dwell together until that harvest,
Matt. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matt. 13:39 The enemy that sowed them (sowed the bad seed of wickedness) is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Matt. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who actually constitutes the tares that will perish at the second coming, or Advent of Christ, and who constitutes the wheat, is already determined before Christ comes.
Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The angels don't have to ask who is in what group, they already know for they were present in that court scene pictured in Daniel 7.

God INVESTIGATES before executing judgment.

Texts to show that God investigates before executing judgment:

The judgment of the Flood in Noah's day:


Gen. 6:5 "Then God saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth."

God is beginning His investigation.

Gen. 6:11 God looked upon the earth and indeed it was corrupt.

But God investigates even closer:

Gen 6:5 Every intent and thought was evil continually"
Gen.6:9 But Noah was a just man, perfect in generation. Noah walked with God.

Why did Noah Find grace in the eyes of God (vs 8) at this point? Didn't God already know Noah was walking with Him? Of course God knew, but He wanted all the succeeding generations to know why he destroyed the others and made an exception for Noah.

The Judgment on Ancient Babylon

In Daniel chapter five, King Belshazzar is throwing a big party. He's praising his idols and tops it all off by bringing in the temple dishes and desecrates them. God is about to execute judgment. But notice all that God has done first.

Daniel 5:27
"You were weighed in the balances and found wanting."

In other words— your case was investigated and you were found guilty. "You knew all that God had done for Nebuchadnezzar but you refused to humble your heart.

Notice the "weighing" is in the past tense. It was already done prior to the handwriting on the wall.
It was already done.
Next would come the execution of that judgment.

Proverbs 16:2
"The ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weighs the spirits"

He investigates what is motivating us.

There's the story of Sodom

The Lord said, "I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it. . ." Gen. 18:21

Before Sodom was destroyed, God investigated.
Angels gathered out a very small group before it happened.


Very soon this earth will face destruction.
The investigation is still in process, not because it "takes the heavenly court so long" but because there are still people "in the valley of decision",
as Rev. 7 reveals
"7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Investigative Judgment
KEY TEXTS
Dan. 7:9-10,
7:13-14,22,26 Rev. 3:5
Takes place in heaven.

Present at this court are the hosts of angels, the Ancient of Days (God the Father) and the Son of Man (Christ)
Christ receives the rights to the dominion and kingdom of earth for mankind.
The Lamb’s Book of Life is updated to include all overcomers who will inherit the restored kingdom.






Decisions of Investigative Judgment
Executed at 2nd coming
KEY TEXTS
Rev. 14:16
Matt. 13:30,39 Matt. 24:31 1 Thess. 4:16,17
John 15:1-3
Takes place on earth
Christ comes with clouds and all His angels to “reap” the earth.
The righteous dead are raised, but the rest of the dead are not raised. (Rev. 20:5)
The angels are the reapers, gather tares for burning, gather elect who meet Christ in the air and return with Him to heaven.




1000 years
saints Investigating
Records
KEY TEXTS
Rev. 20:4 1 Cor. 6:2-3
Saints in heaven
They are invited to investigate the records of the lost, before those lost ones will face the final judgment of condemnation.





Final Judgment
Everyone appears before Christ’s judgment throne
KEY TEXTS
Rev. 20:11-13 Rev. 20:3,5,7
Takes place after the 1000 years here on earth.
Present will be everyone who has ever lived, as the dead are raised to life again.
The saved, those whose names are in the Lamb’s book of life, will be inside the city of God, while the lost will be outside.
Rev. 22:14-15

The names of the lost are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life.





Final Judgment
Executed
KEY TEXTS
Rev. 20:14-15 Malachi 4:1
2 Peter 3:10-12
Takes place on earth.
A great, intense fire will completely burn all traces of sin, including those whose names were not in the book of Life.
God creates the earth anew. All sin with its pain, misery and death are no more.
This kingdom will last forever!

That the judgment [the IJ] began in 1844.
See post On previous page
for introduction to this question.

Daniel 8
Daniel chapter eight takes us through history once again -- there's the ram of Persia, which grew great, (vs.4) the goat of Grecia, which grew very great,(vs.8) but it breaks into four divisions, the next power that emerges is a great horn out of one of the winds (directions) of the earth that grows EXCEEDINGLY great.(vs9) This is NOT Epiphanies, who most certainly did not grow exceedingly great outdoing both Persia and Grecia. This horn is Rome, both pagan and papal. The importance of an exceedingly great power cannot be overestimated -- it was/is indeed exceedingly great covering thousands of years. But what is most important about this horn is how it has affected the world history concerning salvation. We are living not only with the effects of that power, but we are living with that power today!

The angel tells Daniel "O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision." Dan. 8:17

In other words -- this horn power concerns us in our day, living at the time of the end.


The key text marking a specific time is 8:14.

In that verse, we have the cleansing of the sanctuary, a reference to the "day of atonement" in Israel's prophetic yearly feasts.

The question is asked "How long the vision?" vs 13

When someone asks "How long" one expects an answer concerning time.
We need to clarify something at this point.
Check out the word "sacrifice" in Daniel 8.
It is always italicized -- which indicates it is always added by the translators and is NOT in the original. Daniel is NOT talking about sacrifices here, he is talking about evening and morning DAYS.

The Bible tells us that evening/mornings are DAYS. Therefore the translation:
8.14
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. This is in agreement with Biblical usage of the term. EVENING/MORNING = 1 day.

The evening and the morning were the first day
The evening and the morning were the second day
The evening and the morning were the third day
ETC. (Gen. 1)

You will notice that when the Bible uses evening/morning it is speaking of days.
When the bible speaks of the morning and evening sacrifices it always uses the REVERSE order. "Morning" first, then "evening". (See: 2 Kings 16:15; 1 Chron. 16:40; 2Chro. 2:4; 13:11; 31:3)

Also please note that the verses speaking of the PRIEST'S CONTINUAL (or daily tamid) service in the sanctuary itself, IN THE HOLY PLACE, it uses the term in the same order as Daniel-- evening and morning!


Leveticus 24:3 "In the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually:"

Ex. 27.21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the veil, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD:

If Daniel had meant "sacrifices" in chapter eight, he would have said "sacrifices" as he did in Daniel 9:27. However, the word is NOT mentioned AT ALL by Daniel, in Daniel 8. It was added by translators. When the little horn magnifies himself to the Prince of Heaven and seeks to cast to the earth the heavenly sanctuary truth, Christ has already completed the GREAT SACRIFICE at the cross and is in heaven as our HIGH PRIEST in "continual" "tamid" ministry. The "once and for all" sacrifice has taken place, there are no more sacrifices.



Now some argue and ask, why didn't Daniel simply say "days" as he did in Daniel 12?

That's because Daniel was speaking about the "DAILY" ministry in the holy place. (not in the courtyard) He used the same terminology as Lev. 24:3.

You see Daniel chapters 9,8,7, give a picture of CHRIST'S ministry for our salvation.

•Daniel 9 focuses on the "outer court" (this earth) and points to the sacrifices and "outer court" activities of the sanctuary-- these culminate in Christ's sacrifice when He came to earth, and when he caused those sacrifices to cease.

•Daniel 8 focuses on the daily ministry in the holy place, which was transfered to the heavenly sanctuary when Christ ascended into heaven and became the High Priest. The knowledge of this ministry was "cast to the ground" by the horn power. Daniel 8 identifies the date when the heavenly "holy place" minister moves to the Most Holy.

•Daniel 7 gives us details concerning what takes place in the Most Holy judgment phase, when the books are opened and the court is seated..


So how to we arrive at that date -- 1844


Well the vision of Daniel eight began with Persia, includes Grecia and Rome and takes us to the cleansing of the sanctuary.
So the 2300 days are also symbolic years. The question -- how long the vision till the judgment typified by the day of Atonement in Israel's prophetic calendar would begin?
Is answered by saying it began 2300 years after a starting point in the history of the Persian Empire (the Media/Persian Empire that began in 550 BC).

Daniel 9 details the point in Persian history is linked to a certain decree being issued for the restoration of Jerusalem).
Thus the 2300 years takes us to a point in the 1800's.



Dan. 9.24
Seventy weeks are determined (chathak) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks, which stretch from Jerusalem’s restoration to Messiah the Prince, (9:25) are 490 day/years "determined for your people," the Jewish nation.
The word for “determined” is "chathak" which means to cut off, to sever from, to amputate.
Cut off from what?
The angel says “understand the vision”.
What vision? No vision is given in Daniel 9, just an explanation.
We know from Daniel’s account in chapter 8 that he did not fully understand the vision of chapter 8. In chapter nine Daniel is studying and praying. He has read what Jeremiah says about Israel’s captivity lasting 70 years. He has obviously grasped the concept that the vision of Daniel 8 covers a very long period--to the time of the end-- and he is very concerned. He is seeking to reconcile the two, trying to fit this all together with his understanding of the restoration of Jerusalem and the temple, both of which lay in total ruins, having been destroyed by Babylonian armies. This is what Daniel was most concerned about, how does Israel and Jerusalem fit in with this vision.

Gabriel now explains that Jerusalem will be rebuilt, he only explains the portion involving the Jews--which is 490 day/years cut off from the time period given in the previous vision-- the 2300 day/years. Israel was being given a second chance after the Babylonian exile! They were being gathered back into their land to prepare themselves for the coming Messiah! But after the 490 years, desolation far worse than anything Epiphanies wrought befalls Jerusalem and the temple, for it would be destroyed and made desolate. (9:26,27).

Daniel 8 takes us beyond the earthly sanctuary to the heavenly sanctuary, where the Prince of Heavenly Host is-- His sanctuary truth may be trampled by false religious systems but it can NEVER be destroyed, it will triumph in the end.


So when did the vision begin?
When was a decree for Jerusalem's rebuilding issued? The first group of Jews returned to Jerusalem in 536 B.C,

But basically from 536-457 B.C. the Israelites were a struggling group of people with no real government, city or well defined country. They built themselves houses, and managed to build a temple.

Finally Ezra received his decree from Artaxerxes in 457 BC. (In the seventh year of Artaxerxes) The decree gives further help in establishing the temple, but it also gives Israel the right to self government. This decree is recorded in the book of Ezra and marks the beginning of Judea as a restored country in 457 B.C.

457 BC plus 2300 years takes us to 1843.
Add the missing year 9 which isn't counted in the dating scheme and you come to 1844.

Thank you for your extensive posts. I will read them closely and see if I can follow your logic.

I will just make two comments now.

1. I could be wrong, but the above comment seems to indicate that you don't think I read the chapter. This would be an incorrect assumption; I have read it closely several times. Which leads to the second comment:

2. You cannot expect that I will read a chapter or passage of Scripture, (or anything) and come to the same conclusions you have.

No, but to understand what I was saying about the texts I used from the chapter, it helps to read the whole chapter.

dedication, this post has seriously screwed up my browser. It causes the screen to be very narrow and long; I have to scroll back and forth. Can you re-post it in another format?

Blessings Nadi,

Yes, there is an Investigative Judgment in the Heavenly Sanctuary that is going on right now. As far as an exact progression of thought, that depends somewhat on the individual.

I prefer to start from Hebrews chapter 9. I would start by pointing out that Paul, whom I believe wrote the Book of Hebrews in the Bible, starts the chapter by establishing the worldly sanctuary as our starting place. That pattern of the worldly sanctuary is to be followed in our understanding of the Heavenly Sanctuary to this day.

I would also turn your attention to Hebrews 9:12, which can't read as Dr. Walter Martin would have us read it because of Hebrews 9:3.

Sorry I took so long to reply. I'm referring to Romans 2:14.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

There can be no compromise on the fact that salvation is only through Jesus, but the above verses indicate to me that the Holy Spirit has worked upon all people throughout the ages, so I would think that there is hope for those who did not hear the gospel but conscientiously abhorred what they knew to be evil and determined to do what was right. We are each accountable for the light that has been given to us. This seems to be in line with James 4:17, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

However, there is very little written about this in the Bible, so it's hard to thoroughly elaborate on the idea without risking small initial assumptions that result in significant errors in conclusion. What we can be sure of is that God judges uprightly, has never erred, and that whatever the verdict is in each individual case it will be exactly as it should be.



Under the section that I titled "An intermission in judgment", for lack of a better term, I was describing Revelation 20's depiction of punishment for the wicked after the thousand years. Because the text includes a depiction of judgment during the thousand years, and given that Paul alludes to us judging the world and angels at some point in time, it seems logical that there must at least be some form of us reviewing the books during that time. We can further conclude that for us to even be in Heaven to begin with we must have already been judged righteous (because Jesus is righteous), and therefore those that name the name of Christ must have already been judged prior to the beginning of the thousand years. This is the investigative judgment.


I didn't cover the question of judgment beginning in 1844 because Dedication seems to have that covered.

So in my reading of Daniel 7:

Daniel sees the 4 beasts, followed by the throne scene. This is obviously a judgement, based on the description.

This follows the "terrible beast" with the 10 horns, based on the seemingly chronological organization of the passage.

At this judgement, the "Son of Man" (Jesus) comes with the "clouds of Heaven". This is the second coming. I base this statement on Matthew 24:30, Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, and other passages describing Jesus' second coming.

The purpose of this judgement is to take away the power of the 4th beast and give the kingdom to the saints, led by the son of man (Jesus, see above). Based on Daniel 7:18, 22, 26, 27.

Notice that every statement above is based on another passage of Scripture. Yes, it is also my opinion, but my opinion is based on a specific Biblical passage. This leads to my conclusion:

1. This is clearly the judgement of God at the end of time.
2. There is no mention of an investigation, or of moving from one compartment to another, or starting a 2nd phase of ministry.
3. Therefore, Daniel 7 cannot be used to support an "investigative" judgement, or a start date of 1844.

Daniel 7:28 "This is the end of the matter."

PS: dedication.
I am still reading through your extensive posts.

In your opinion.

Which specific verse or verses establish this?

Based on what?

How does Dr. Martin read it, and how does that differ from your reading?

1. How does this idea differ from "All paths lead to God?"
2. So when a Muslim man kills his daughter for dishonoring the family, because "it's the right thing to do," that's OK.

Not very well. She needs help.

Josh, here are my thoughts on your post. My comments are in red.




I could not agree more. Most theology suffers from that error.

Just an observation, dedication, but please consider this:

Based on these posts

it seems you wish to rely solely on Scripture.

Commendable.

But then you appeal to "the reformers" and, of all things, Wikipedia

The intent is not to start an argument or fight, but to point out that all of our closely held beliefs are based on something. In attempting to establish a strong argument, this "something" must be identified.

When offered "the reformers" as support, I would ask "Which reformer(s), in which documents?"

When offered Wikipedia as support, I would ask...well, let's just leave that one alone.

Conclusion:
When you post that you will only offer Scripture as support, then give me a generic "the reformers" and "Wikipedia", I cannot seriously accept your position as anything other than your opinion.

Therefore, since your argument is unsupported, I have to reject it.

What I wrote before is different from all roads leading to God for two reasons. First, Paul was specifically talking about gentiles that did not have the law. In other words, gentiles whose only knowledge of the one true God was their conscience and the things of nature. Those who have access to greater light but reject it are not included in that statement.

Second, the conscience is separate from false religions. Paul was not saying that gentiles would find God through any religion. He specifically talked only about the conscience and heart in those verses. For example, there is no excuse offered here for idolatry and the worship of lower creatures, as even simple reason argues against it.



The context for my statement was the part of the verse regarding gentiles who "do by nature the things contained in the law". In other words, who do the very things that they would do if they had the law and kept it.

The Holy Spirit speaks to us through our conscience. There are laws that should, by nature, be evident to all. Killing one's own child should be among the most abhorrent things that they could contemplate. It does not have to be explained before at least some people will see it as wrong because nature itself should protest this. What those people falsely call honor is really just pride. The killing happens because something they did caused shame. The people who do that are so absorbed in their own appearance, power, and pride that being embarrassed by the actions of a family member seems worse to them than to murder someone they should love the most. They even flatter themselves that they're actually doing the right thing and that their victim is the sinner. Sounds like Isaiah 5:20, and so many other verses, right?


I'll have to reply to the rest later.



But the Son of Man "came to the Ancient of Days" in Daniel 7:13. Unless it can be shown that this Ancient of Days, i.e. the Father, is on the Earth, then it does not follow that Jesus is coming to the Earth in this verse.

Wow, Josh, I'm impressed. Good point.



However...
Here is my understanding.

1. Daniel 7:1-14 describes a vision of Daniel.
2. In Daniel 7:15, 16 Daniel is troubled by the vision and asks "the meaning of all this." Therefore:
3. Daniel 7:16-26 is an explanation and re-statement of the vision.
4. Note Dan. 7:21, 22: Please note several things about this text:
a. The little horn is waging war against the saints. Unless shown otherwise, this war is on Earth.
b. It wages war until the Ancient of Days comes. Unless shown otherwise, he comes to the earth, where the war is.
c. The Ancient of Days pronounces judgement in favor of the saints. (cf Daniel 7:9, 10 a judgement scene) This judgement is on earth. (See a and b above.)
d. Note also verse 22 last part: "and the time came when they possessed the kingdom." This war, judgement, and "Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven" (cf vs. 13, 14) happens when the saints posses the kingdom. ie: the end of time.

Conclusion:

Therefore it has been established that "this Ancient of Days, i.e. the Father" IS on the earth, and it therefore follows that Jesus is coming to the earth in this [v.13,14] verse.

As we say in Canada, "The call on the ice stands."

1. Paul, who was a prophet, tells us that we will judge the world and angels. 1Co 6:2-3

2. Jude references the fallen angels awaiting judgment under chains of darkness. Jude 6

3. John describes Satan, himself a fallen angel, chained for a thousand years. Rev 20:1-3

4. He then describes thrones of judgment and those sitting on them reigning for that thousand years. Rev 20:4-6

5. He further describes the wicked dead, who do not take part in the first resurrection, as being resurrected one thousand years later and experiencing the second death after their resurrection. Rev 20:5-6, 13-15

6. Before that resurrection, John describes a judgment scene and specifically says it's "the dead" that were judged. Rev 20:12


We have not already judged the world or angels and are not presently doing this, so it is therefore logical that it must happen in the future. The fallen angels and the wicked dead are awaiting judgment during the thousand years, which is future. The righteous are sitting on thrones of judgment during that time. The only dead at that point, and whose resurrection is shortly followed by the lake of fire, are the wicked dead. Therefore, the time for what Paul said about the righteous judging the world and angels is during the thousand years.




First, I think we both agree that the resurrection of the righteous, the first resurrection, is at the second coming. Now, for them to take part in this resurrection, in which they are declared "blessed and holy" (Rev 20:6), they must have already been judged as righteous prior to being resurrected.

Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Peter places the time that the sins are blotted out as being future from his own time by saying "when the times of refreshing shall come..." We believe that this is the final work of Jesus before the second coming.

The completion of the atonement for sin happens when Jesus enters the most holy place in the temple in Heaven and presents His blood as the atonement for all the sins that were confessed on the sacrificial lamb, which was Himself. Absolutely everyone who will ever be redeemed is redeemed by His blood, and as our High Priest He must be in the most holy place to do this. This is the cleansing of the sanctuary, typified by the earthly day of atonement and earthly high priest. This cannot happen at the second coming, because at that time Jesus will be here and not in the temple in Heaven.




Also, the Pulpit Commentary notes in Daniel 7:9 that "It is not "the Ancient of days," but "one ancient in days," that is to say, the phrase is not appellative, but descriptive." The RSV (official revision of the KJV) renders the words as "one that was ancient of days did sit". In other words, the original text does not exclude the reading of there being two in this chapter who are ancient in days.

To give further support to the view that both the Father and Jesus could be, in this chapter, described as the Ancient of days, compare the description of the first Ancient of days in verse 9 with the description of Jesus in Revelation 1:13-16.

Jesus received the kingdom and judgment in 1844. Those who will ever after be called the saints are being determined and afterward, during the thousand years, also receive the kingdom and judgment. Not a favorable judgment upon themselves, as some translations do say, but the right to judge. Judgment is handed over to them.

This can be seen by comparing Daniel 7 on the saints receiving the kingdom with Revelation 20:4 in which the saints receive thrones, judgment, and reign for a thousand years. It's describing the same thing.

Further, as Peter said above in Acts 3:20, the Lord (the Father) "shall send Jesus Christ" to us. Notice that he said "send", meaning that the Father is in Heaven at the second coming and sends Jesus from there to here.

I disagree Nadi. That scene is not the Second Coming of Jesus. There is another coming of Jesus, and that is to the Heavenly Sanctuary. One place this is covered is in Malachi 2:17 to 3:3.

So, I understand there is much context to consider, but consider this; Even with the earthly sanctuary on the earth the Israelites knew God dwelt in Heaven. Jacob's dream about the ladder with angels moving up and down on it is one such Biblical proof of this point.

Very good -- glad you've been reading and studying.



Here of course I disagree.

Let's just look carefully at the passage itself.
Just because Christ is accompanied by "clouds" of angels does not necessarily mean it's the same event.

7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

The Son of Man came ... where?

He "came to the Ancient of Days".
It doesn't say He came to earth.
He "came to the Ancient of Days".

And they, (which I presume are the angels) brought Him (that is Christ, the Son of Man) near before Him (near to the Ancient of Days or God the Father).

The scene here described is not the second advent of Christ to this earth, unless the Ancient of days is on this earth; for it is a coming to the Ancient of days.

The Ancient of Days is God the Father as we saw in His description in the previous verse (7:9} "the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." It is God Who sits on a fiery throne ( see Rev.4:5)

There, in the presence of the Ancient of days, a kingdom, dominion, and glory are given him. The Son of man receives his kingdom before his return to this earth. (See Luke 19:10-12 and onward.) This is a scene, therefore, which transpires in the heavenly temple, and is closely connected to the scene brought to view in verses 9 and 10.

Also notice in a similar chapter (Rev. 5) which is also a scene in heaven -- the heavenly host proclaim:
vs 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.




Partly true, but the kingdom is first given to Christ, the Son of Man according to Daniel 7:14 and this takes place in heavenly court scene before all those angels when the books are opened, before any judgment on earth is executed.

7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Before the "kingdom" can be given to the saints, it must be given to Christ. The scriptures often refer to Christ taking the "throne of David". (see Is. 9:7, Luke 1:32)
The Son of God rules the universe with God the Father, He is verily God, Creator of all things (John 1:3) why would He want, or even need, the "throne of David" -- what purpose is there in that?

When you can answer that question, you will realize that the kingdom must first be legally given to Christ, the Son of Man, (for He took upon Himself humanity) as He takes Adam's place at the head of the human race, (see Romans 5:15) and has won the kingdom back for mankind. As the "Son of Man" He stands as the representative of humanity before God there in Daniel 7:13-14.



All my responses are based on specific scripture as well.
That the judgment in Daniel 7 is at the time of the end is true enough, but that time begins BEFORE the second coming -- for He is brought before the Father to receive the kingdom and present before the Father and the angels the names of who will be citizens of His kingdom (see Rev. 3:5) before He comes to earth to claim what he has received.



But I do see that very thing in Daniel 7.

Reread Daniel 7:9-10

“I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;

10
A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[b] was seated,
And the books were opened.


Notice -- there is movement here.
Thrones are set in place.
The Ancient of Days comes and takes His seat.
His throne is mobile -- it has WHEELS!

There is a definite sense of motion here.

Not only are the thrones first set in place,
and the Ancient of Days takes His seat.
But Jesus, the Son of Man is also seen moving.

vs. 13 And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him


So the Ancient of Days (God the Father) moves to a new position-- And Jesus moves (not to earth) but is brought before the Ancient of Days.
Lots of movement here!

And yes, there is a judgment in favor of the saints and against the horn BEFORE the time the saints actually enter their inheritance --

read verse 22

21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

How long was the horn making war against the saints before the judgment ?
That time is given in Daniel 7:25.
It adds up to 1260 years. (Daniel 7:25; Rev. 12:6,14)
The horns power was broke in 1798, and shortly thereafter the message began to sound, "the hour of His judgment has come" Rev. 14:7. Revelation shows the horn revives, (healed) and tries to gain dominion of the earth, but it's end is sure, the heavenly court settles the true inheritors of the eternal kingdom and it will be executed.

The last paragraph was summary -- this is already getting too long.






That is a leap on rather flimsy "scholarship" in my opinion, for it ignores some strong points in the verses and assumes a second coming, when the text says no such thing -- it says Christ is brought before the Ancient of Days.

There is definitely a court procedure going on in heaven prior to the time when the saints receive the kingdom and the usurpers are destroyed.

dedication,



This statement of yours just made a connection for me that I had not seen before. In Deuteronomy 33:4 it says that Moses gave us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. That law is specified in other places, but it is the law in which an Israelite's inheritance could be ransomed/redeemed/purchased_back by his closest living relative who was capable of paying off his debt.

I've done a fair amount of study on this law and it is the legal foundation for a substitute to pay off a debt a debtor could not pay himself. This is foundational to the plan of salvation for Christ came to ransom us back from he who is too strong for us, and as our substitute paid our debt. We are His inheritance since he bought us, and the legal giving of the kingdom to Christ is Him receiving from His Father His inheritance, as the COI are Christ's inheritance, and he is a Jew who is one inwardly. This, us being Christ's inheritance, is found, among many other places, in Exodus 34:9. Christ, in purchasing us back also bought back our dominion over the earth.

You just opened before me another window into this beautiful truth as I hadn't really realized before how it tied into end time prophecy. It is really obvious so I should have, but hadn't.

Deut. 32:9; For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

I hope this helps.

Yeah, this is found also in Deuteronomy 4:20, 9:26 and 29, IKings 8:53, IIKings 21:14, Psalm 28:9, Psalm 33:12, Psalm 74:2, Psalm 78:62, Psalm 78:71, Psalm 94:14, Psalm 106:5, Psalm 106:40, Isaiah 19:25, Isaiah 47:6, Isaiah 63:17, Jeremiah 10:16, Jeremiah 51:9, and Ephesians 1:18.

The truth of the law of inheritance is found throughout the Bible. The NT authors all saw it as the foundation of the plan of salvation for if you look at the Greek words they used that are translated as redeem, redeemed, redemption, etc... they all have to do with ransom and purchasing. When John talks about the redeemed in Revelation the Greek word means to go to market, by implication, to purchase so to him the redeemed are those purchased from the earth. In Paul's writings where we find the word redemption it comes from a Greek word meaning the act of paying a ransom in full. In Luke 24:21 the word redeemed comes from a Greek word meaning to ransom. The disappointed disciples in that story were saying they thought Jesus was the one who was to ransom Israel.

In the OT every time we see the word redeemer it comes from the Hebrew word ga'al, which is tied directly to the the law in which an Isrealite could redeem the land or the children his relative had to sell to pay his debts.

Moses ties ransom and atonement together too.

Interesting comments!

It's true -- there is nothing like studying salvation in Christ through the lessons of the sanctuary doctrine to pull so many points together.

That's true dedication. I sometimes think people bring up the Investigative Judgment just because it's so broad and deep. I'm still learning.

A quick question to anyone.

According to Paul & OT definition of redemption--- does the redeemed ones have to pay their debt once they are redeemed?

There is so much to this truth. It took me several hours a day for a few months to really get into the depths of it, and as I said, I'm still running across new vistas into it. It is found throughout Ellen White's writings too. It's one of those truths which you have to dig to find, but I found many, many quotes from Ellen White on this subject. I also have a large number of bookmarked Bible texts on this. Yet one very rarely hears anything about it.

Ellen White in her writings, like the Bible does, always talks about this in passing, but yet it is pervasive in both. There are references to this everywhere but they lie beneath the surface. If you're not specifically looking for this stuff it just passes by without real notice.

In Moses' writings he says that Christ ga'aled the COI out of bondage in Egypt, which release, as you know, is symbolic of releasing us from the bondage of sin. In most places where the OT talks about this specific instance it uses words that directly mean ransom. But in this one instance, Exodus 6:6, Moses used ga'al. I wondered about that until in searching for the why of it I ran across Exodus 4:22 in which God says Israel is his firstborn son. I believe this is why God slew all the firstborn of the Egyptians when Pharaoh wouldn't let the COI go.

I say No! We can never pay the debt! Only the sinless Son of God could pay the debt for all mankind.

Yet, Satan does suffer for the sins of the redeemed. But, even Satan doesn't pay for the debt of the redeemed.

This is going off-topic, however redemption is related to this subject. So please feel free to start a new discussion if you think it's more appropriate,

My point is really brief and I would link this to the subject of Investigative Judgment.



I appreciate the answer. Let's keep this simple and keep satan aside.

I do agree with Alchemy that only Jesus could pay the debt of the world. But that's not what my question was focusing on.

The question is : What happens after we are redeemed....that's where we might be in dissagreement.

What I see scripture saying is the redeemed ones still have to work(=pay) for their debt they incurred after being redeemed.

Anyone who agree or disagree with my answer?

Please provide scriptures source for yours; and I will supply scriptures also.

The bold emphasis in Elle's quote was not mine.

I do believe that God has us re-visit areas in our characters which have caused us to sin and fall in the past to teach us to gain the victory over those weaknesses. But, I don't believe we pay for the sins we committed.

I believe much importance should be given to how we think about God and come to understand God's attitude toward us better.

Sorry, I didn't noticed you had replied.



Tx Alchemy. First responding to what I have bolded and underlined in your statement above. I think, your understanding is not in line with Biblical definition. GaryK comment above didn't have that understanding either. That's why I brought it up as this is directly linked to the Lord's judgment on sin.

So I'll try to pull out some clear points that the Bible says about the subject:

1. Sin == debt : Scripture equates sin to a debt (Compare the Lord's prayer in Luk 11:4 "forgive our sins" with Mar 6:12 "forgive our debts").

2. If you cannot pay your debt -- you are sold : In Ex 22:3 is where this basic law is found saying that restitution needs to be paid and if he doesn't have the money to pay, his labor needs to be sold to pay his debt."...[for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

The Lord has put Ex 22:3 in application many times by selling the COI(Children of Israel) for their sins by putting them in captivity to foreign nations. Many plain examples are found in the book of Judges where the Lord has SOLD the COI 6 times to foreign nations. (see the explicit wording in Judg 2:14 "he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about";3:18"he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim";4:2"And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan";10:7 "and he sold them into the hands of the Philistines") There's many other texts and example that is found elsewhere in the Bible, but the above should be enough to establish this basic principle.

3. Those that bought your debt is your Redeemer : In essence the foreign nation that the COI was sold to, acts as a redeemer. Basically, a redeemer is responsible to pay up the debt with the work of their acquired slaves. The debt of COI was owed to the Lord. He has no interest to paid in gold or silver, but with the good "fruits" for His kingdom. So if the Foreign Nations were not capable of delivering the fruits of the Kingdom of God that the COI wasn't able to produce at the first place... then the Foreign Nations will also undergo some judgment for failing to pay up the debt. The Kingdom will be taken away from them too like it was taken away from the COI. Meanwhile, the responsibility to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom was removed from the backs of the COI and was transferred to the Redeemer. Despite these foreign nations that acted as a redeemer failed to deliver the fruits(pay the debt); it did removed this responsibility from the backs of the COI and did give them some rest. It doesn't mean they didn't have to work during those years; but the responsibility of the debt was on the Redeemer's back and not on theirs. The responsibility of the debt being on the Redeemer's back is a very crucial point to understand in terms of the plan of salvation and the Lord's judgment.

4. The difference between a Redeemer and the close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): There's two types of Redeemer that can purchase our debt, #1)A distant-related Redeemer; #2) A close of kin Redeemer. According to the law, if a slave is already working for #1-distant redeemer, a #2-close of kin redeemer have the right by law to purchase you from the hands of #1-distant redeemer. Lev 25:25; 25:49; and the book of Ruth.

5. The debt transfer from the #1-distant redeemer to the #2-close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): So when #2-close of Kin Redeemer exercise His right by taking the slave from #1 the distant-Redeemer's hand... the debt is transferred from #1 to #2 Redeemer. It is true that a Redeemer is ultimately responsible to pay for the debt; however this doesn't mean your debt is forgiven and you don't have to work for your redeemer to pay for it. It is to the Redeemer's discretion how much you need to work, what you need to do, and when & how much is to be forgiven if any portion is to be forgiven before the Jubilee comes.

The advantage of having a #2-close of kin Redeemer is a #1-distant redeemer will tend to work hard their slaves and have no sympathy or understanding. Whereas the #2-close of kin Redeemer will be more kind, loving, having much understanding and wisdom in knowing how to bring about the good "fruits" the Father seeks for.

However, always remember the responsibility is on the Redeemer's back (not ours) to bring us to deliver those fruits that the Father has required since Adam.

Then Scripture also tells us that our Lord(#2-close of kin Redeemer) have yoked himself to us so to make our load lighter and more bearable. Note that the Lord is not only the Redeemer of us believers, but also the Redeemer of the whole World. Will Jesus succeed to bring about the fruits of the Kingdom in all of us that the Father requires? If Jesus, the Redeemer of the World, doesn't succeed....then judgment will fall on Him not us for this failure -- because He is the Redeemer and the responsibility is on Him and not on US. But we do know that Jesus will succeed. Right?

We find the most explicit definition of the function of the Redeemer and how our debt can be paid, with or without a #2-close of kin redeemer, define in the law of Jubilee. (Read Lev 25:25-28;47-54). Those that were redeemed had to work for their debt until the year of Jubilee.

We also see the same principle in the sacrificial services, where the blood is said to be only a covering of sin (not erased yet) . For the sin to be removed(or cleanse) from the temple, it requires the work of the second “live” goat & dove as shown in Lev 16 & 14.

We also see that Paul, James, Peter, Jude, John, etc… all had this understanding and referred to themselves as “servant” [doulos, slave] to the Lord. The Greek word “doulos” means “slave” and a slave is a worker that obeys the command of their Master-Redeemer.

6. The debt is to be paid until paid in full or until the Jubilee time come : The debt to be paid to either Redeemer #1 or #2 is always calculated according to the remaining years left until the Jubilee. Once the Jubilee comes, only then that all debts are cancelled, whether the debt is paid in full or not. (see Lev 25:25-28; 47-54).


Any judgments whether investigative or not, has to be viewed according to the Biblical definition of the judgment of sin given in point #2 above where Ex 22:3 and Lev 5:16 saying that a restitution for sin has to be paid. Further details how the debt can be paid with or without a Redeemer is given in the law of Jubilee.

So to me, SDAs [investigative] Judgment description & timing is absolutely not in harmony with the Lord’s judgment defined in the law.

SDAs investigative judgment teaching fails :

#1 : By not having the same judgment definition "restitution must be paid" described in Ex 22:3, Lev 5:16 and elsewhere.

#2 : by not having the biblical definition of the Redeemer. That the responsibility to pay our debt and the world's debt rest 100% on the redeemer and not on us(or the world). If at the end of time, if anyone of us or in the world fails to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom, then this failure is not on our head but it is on our Redeemer's head.

#3 : our timing of the scope of the judgment for sin is not in line with what is define in the law of Jubilee.

#4 : Also SDAs IJ doctrine does not account the time limit to pay for our debt that is set in the law of Jubilee -- when all debt are cancelled at the Jubilee whether or not you have paid your debt in full. All debt are cancel and all is set free at the Jubilee.

In my view, we need to get first in sync with the Lord's definition of words and with His laws established to deal with sin, before tackling more complicated truths like understanding Daniel's prophecies.

I understand the wages of sin is death. I think I understand your point about debt. There is a debt to pay and Jesus pays that debt for us. Then Jesus coordinates the payment of the debt and His Second Coming, to demonstrate His people don't have any debt to worry about and have every right to the tree of life.

Have I missed anything?

Yes, Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe,
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
All who come to Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin in this probationary time (our earthly lives) will be saved.

But that's not really what Elle is saying.
She believes that all people will be saved.
Her last point #2 says it is the responsibility of the redeemer to make sure every last person is saved, if anyone is lost it is not their failure but it is the redeemer's failure.

Thus, in her thinking the Adventist understanding of the investigative judgment just does not fit in, because the pre-advent investigative judgment makes a distinction between those who have responded to Christ's call and are saved by the blood of the Lamb, and those who only made a profession but clung to sin and are not saved. Christ's second coming does not bring in a new era in which people are re-educated to "bring forth the fruits of the kingdom". At Christ's second coming it is too late to change.

Amen.

I hope everyone here, including Elle, comes to understand that the Godhead has done everything divinely possible to save every human being ever to live.

But, God will never compromise His law or force anyone. People can be lost, even professed Christians.

True!
There is no way we can pay for even the tiniest part of our salvation. but we do have the freedom to chose or reject the salvation bought for us.

Those restitution laws are concerning how we are to deal with our fellow man. If someone has taken something from someone else, they are to restore it. If someone causes the destruction of someone else's property, they need to make amends. If we owe someone money, we should repay it. That is NOT paying for our salvation, it is learning to live a decent life in society.

The redemption laws of ancient Israel had two purposes:
1. in a society where the evils of slavery and debt and other misfortunes were rampant, God put in place laws to make life more bearable for them.
2. The laws of the "redeemer" were to point people to the Great Redeemer, Who would save them from sin.

To try and transcribe laws made to meet the evils of their society, point by point into how Christ redeems His people, is just not reasonable or correct. However,the main theme that a near kinsman redeems (pays the debt so they can be free) points to Christ as our "near kinsman" who pays the debt so we can be free.

And as we understand that how does it affect our understanding of the investigative judgment?

In order to pass the scrutiny of that judgment we must be perfect! Even one sin would condemn us to death, and we've all committed a multitude of sins.
But we have the promise:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Standing before the broken law of God, the sinner cannot cleanse himself; but, believing in Christ, he is the object of His infinite love and clothed in His spotless righteousness.
Who can comprehend the nature of that righteousness
which makes the believing sinner whole, presenting him to God without spot or wrinkle or any such thing? We have the pledged word of God that Christ is made unto us righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.

Please provide Biblical support that God is on trial.


Please provide Biblical support for that.

Here's a short respond of what I see what scripture is saying about the question of evil.

-According to Is 45:7 God says He created evil

-in Lev 26 we have very explicit repeated language that The Lord is the one that brings unto us "evil" in the form of all those calamities listed in that chapter.

-Any immature children being corrected perceived their parent's judgment as "evil" or unfair. It's only when we grow that our childhood perception of our parents comes to change.

-Us as Christians we often mistakenly perceived God's judgments and disciplines as coming from the devil. However, it is the Lord that brings all these judgments and events in our lives. Not the devil.(Heb 12:1-17)

-Also the Lord's judgments and disciplines are always correctional in the aim to restore the individual and are never punitive nor have a "forever" destruction end. (Is 26:9,10)

-The scripture doesn't say it's Satan or the devil that brings evils. God may use Satan to bring about some "evil" --calamities to bring us to a higher spiritual plane like we see in the story of Job who did nothing wrong. Or when the Lord used King Nebuchadnezzar and called him "my servant" to bring on to us some form of judgment for things we did do wrong. But in both of these situation, it is the Lord that initiated these decision and judgments...not Satan.

We read in Job 42:11 "Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold."

-Satan is an accuser of the brethren. Yes. That's his job. And he's a deceiver that will deceive us into doing lawlessness. But it is the Lord that brings on all judgment on His own timing when we (as individuals or as a nation) break the law. Not Satan. And it's only when God brings on judgment that we experience this evilness in our life.

Elle,

Before we get into scripture I have a few questions for you.

1. Do you see a struggle between good and evil down throughout human history?

2. Do you see that struggle in your own life and the lives of others?

3. Is there clear misconception of who God is in the world?

4. In the Garden of Eden when the devil tempted Adam and Eve what was the temptation based on? What idea?

Perhaps start another thread...

You probably didn't see the long added segment to my question #2 in my post above of what I see scripture saying about the question of evil. I added that section so to be more efficient and expressed briefly what I see scripture saying about the question of evil. What I listed is only a partial list.

Maybe that added section, will answer your questions of my view by which I limit it to what scriptures says. I do not rely on my opinion of what I perceive what is or what is not.

Let's stick to what scripture says and not confuse the issue with our limited opinions or others opinions & interpretations. Our perception of what we think what is and what is not is most likely delusional. Only scriptures can define what is and what is not correctly. We are to submit our perception to the expressed word of God and not vice versa. I rather rely on what scriptures says if you don't mind.

We can come back to your 4 questions after you have provided scriptures to support your two statements and see from there what scriptures really says about the topic. Only then we can have more grounds to answer the 4 questions in a scriptural perspective and not from an uninformed shallow opinion of man.

I think this is on-subject. What Gary K expressed was answering your IJ question. But if you and others want to move this into another discussion...I will be ok with your decision.

Say what? Really? Then what is the point of studying the Bible, or even discussion of the conclusions we come to or what ideas we hold, if what everyone thinks is most likely delusional?

I'm sorry, but I find that so off-the-wall that it just flabbergasts me. You have opinions of a spiritual nature, but even you think your own opinions formed by your own Bible study are delusional? And this in response to questions as to how you view the world around you in spiritual terms, and what you think of a specific Biblical passage--the devil's temptation of Eve?

If this is really how you view things I don't know how I can have a rational discussion with you as you yourself think your opinions of scriptural concepts are delusional.

So then, these "days" (evening and morning) now become "years" according to the day/year principle. Which then brings up the clarification of the "days" (evening/morning) of creation. Were these literal 24 hour periods, or did each "evening/morning" represent a year?





So it seems you have linked the vision in Daniel 8 and the 2300 days there, (which is not given a start date), with the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, which has a start date of "the command to restore Jerusalem."

I see this association as weak and unsupported given the number of assumptions needed for it to work:

1. The explanation talks about the vision of Daniel 8, despite the fact that it comes 11 years after the vision.
2. Daniel 8 and 9 are related and refer to the same vision.
3. The elaborate explanation that the 70 weeks are part of the 2300 days based on "determined" meaning "cut off." This, although allowed, is not the primary meaning of the Hebrew.

Since the angel Gabriel specifically states WHAT starts at the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, I find it unjustified to assign that start date to another time prophecy on such shaky support.

So I do not see the validity of a 457 BCE start date for the 2300 day prophecy.

Gary, I also think that Elle's theology is highly suspect, and I have indicated this to her. She makes "laws" and "principles of interpretation" and other such things that I find unwarranted.

HOWEVER

1. Elle ALWAYS responds in a kind and Christ-like manner, and is always willing to admit that perhaps she didn't understand well or explain herself well. This is far more "Christian" than the responses of some others on this forum who may or may not have (in their opinion) more "correct" theology.

2. I always read all of her posts, because:
a. She will always make you think.
b. If you only read stuff you agree with, you will never challenge your beliefs.

Your reasoning is what is shaky.

We know from Daniel 8:16 that Gabriel was the angel that brought the interpretation of Daniel 8 to Daniel. This interpretation was not completed because Daniel fainted. Daniel 8:27

In Daniel 9:21 Daniel is the one who says this same Gabriel was the one who was "in the vision at the beginning"! Referring to the vision in chapter 8. This is obvious since there isn't a vision in Daniel chapter 9. So, there isn't any assumption on this point. You will find the same thing in Daniel chapter 11 as well. All this is interpreting Daniel chapter 8.

I hope the above is not only a means to evade to support your 2 statements made in your post stated above that I ask Biblical support for in the Protestants renounce Protestanism discussion #Post184189.

In that discussion, Nadi said by which I agreed that "The Seventh-day Adventist church IS NOT a Bible and Bible only church. This puts them DIRECTLY in bed with the Catholic Church. Sorry."

Then the IJ came up to be supported with the Bible. You, Gary K, made an IJ blur that is quoted below:


I said the following about your IJ blur:


And ask for you to support 2 of your statements in that IJ blur.
And I'm still waiting for your Biblical support.

I perceived you do not have the adequate Biblical support require for those two simple statements. And if that is the case, then there's no need to continue with your line of arguments is there?

Please give Biblical support for the two statements in your Nadi IJ blur :

Here is the first one :


Here is the second one :


For convenience sake and for efficiency to move this discussion forward....I have given my Biblical view with some texts of the question of evil that challenges your 2nd statement above.

Just a note of encouragement to those struggling to support the SDA doctrine of an Investigative Judgement.

You are not alone in your struggles.

I have just read the pertinent sections of T.H. Jemison's book Christian Beliefs, and questions 24-28 and question 36 in Questions on Doctrine, by "a Representative Group of Seventh-day Adventist Leaders, Bible Teachers, and Editors." Both books are long on beliefs and short on support.

Since Jemison's book was the de facto textbook for Bible Doctrines classes in SDA colleges for many years, it is no wonder there is so little understanding of the SDA position on this doctrine.

Since this very important and clear point has been made, we now know the interpretation of Daniel chapter 8 is partly in Daniel 8,9 and 11:2-12:4. All of this is the interpretation given from the angel Gabriel to Daniel. Daniel 11:1 is where Gabriel makes clear his identity.

In Daniel chapter 9:21-27 is where the start date is given us. It is given in an event that took place in 457 B.C.. 2300 years from that point takes us to exactly 1844 A.D.. This really is very simple at its core.

Elle,

If you want me to answer your questions it is only fair that you answer mine.

My response to you saying that you weren't going to answer my questions because you believe that whatever you believe is most likely delusional is not a dodge. My question is a real one. What is the purpose of studying the Bible if at most all you get are delusions? And, why should I discuss issues with someone who believes that what they are going to take away from that discussion is delusional? It makes absolutely no sense to me to do that.

As far as I'm concerned your response to my 4 questions is a dodge. They are simple questions that you should be able to answer based upon what you know of the Bible, history, and human nature. Like I told alchemy in our economic discussions, I'm not just going to let someone pound me with questions while they answer none of mine.

So, if you actually want a discussion that is give-and-take on both sides, answer the questions and we will go from there. If all you want is a one-sided pounding of my view of the issue, forget it. I am not interested in that kind of one-sided conversation.

My answer to Elle has nothing to do with her theology, other than at a tangential angle. If she believes that most of what she takes away from studying the Bible is delusional, which means divorced from reality, then what is the point of Bible study? I simply cannot see one.

I study the Bible to find reality in this sin-sick world of ours, not to leave reality behind.

And as an aside, why don't you answer my 4 questions as they are just as relevant to you as they are to Elle? You asked me a question and I answered you. You have ignored that answer up to this point. Why?

When studying something it a good idea to take a long-range view of the issue first. A sort of 30,000 ft. flyover of the issue so a person can later see where details fit in an overall view of an issue.

To start off deep in the weeds of a subject is to miss how the subject fits into the overall picture being looked at. The individual trees get mistaken for how and where they fit into the forest in which they reside. Thus people can argue all day long to no avail because they disagree where an individual tree fits in the forest because they didn't look at the entire forest to begin with.

If we look at a long range view of a mountainside we can see stands of poplar, quaking aspen, larch, douglas fir, yellow pine, etc... and see how they all fit together. If all we do is immediately start examining the quaking aspen's roots with a magnifiying glass and arguing from that how the stand of quaking aspen relates to the rest of the forest there can never be consensus or even an understanding of how those quakies actually fit into the forested mountainside.

Perhaps.
Or it indicates that one already has the big picture clearly in view.

That's great. As you already have the big picture clearly in view, then the four questions I asked Elle ought to be very easy for you to answer since they are big picture questions.

I certainly agree with you on this point.

Perhaps start another thread.

I think that is awesome that you are asking these questions here! I find that it can be very educational to study questions asked by others.

I am almost out of time for tonight, but Id like to comment that many years ago when i studied this doctrine, I ended up calling it "The Pre Advent Judgment." I think that in recent years, some church members have adopted this take on the IJ, and mostly because of the fact that it takes place, during the 1000 year millenium, which is before the "final judgment" which I think is what you are referring to? It is my understanding that during this Pre Advent Judgment, it is not so much as us being judged, because this is where we will have the opportunity to review all that God has done in our lives, and to see just why He did, or did not do whatever has taken place with us. It is the point in time where we can look at God, and know for a fact that He is Just, and The Justifier in our lives.I will of course comment in more detail as time permits! keep up the good work in studying the Scriptures for yourself! Thats the best place to start.

This is an idea that I am much more comfortable with and can see more Biblical support for. Of course, much depends on what is understood by the various terms, but immediately I can see that it is more Biblical than a judgement starting in 1844.

Me thinks The Wanderer confuses the pre-Advent (IJ) Judgment with the 1000 years which takes place AFTER the Advent. If something takes place "after", then it can't be called "pre-".

Just another quick note, In saying the above I am neither denying or confirming "1844."

Possibly, but only if both viewpoints adhere to the same definitions and chronology.

No need for God's people to fear "judgment in any way because. The pre-Advent judgment is in favor of the saints:

'As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom'" (verses 21, 22, N.I.V.).

This translation is slightly different from the King James Version, which reads: "judgment was given to the saints of the most High." Brown, Driver, and Briggs render this phrase: "Judgment was given in favor of."

For 1260 years the saints had been persecuted, condemned, and slain under the dominion of the apostate power of the "little horn," which claimed to stand in the place of God, with the right to forgive sins and to decide cases for right or wrong.

The judgment of the church on earth had gone against them all these years. At last the record is to be put straight. The pre-Advent judgment will reverse the judgment against them by the antichrist and his earthly agents.

This judgment rendered by the heavenly tribunal cannot be called into question. It is the only true court of appeal; God's judgment in and from the heavenly sanctuary will reveal who the true saints are.

Once that judgment has been completed, the text declares: " 'The time came when they possessed the kingdom'" (verse 22, N.I.V.). And when do the saints possess the kingdom?

Those 4 questions are very relevant to the subject of this thread.

Unfortunately I do not share that view, but simply see it as a second attempt to de-rail the discussion.

I agree with Nadi, this belongs in a separate topic, perhaps something along the lines of "The Great Controversy?" Perhaps the person asking these questions could help us out with a little more explanation on why these questions are being proposed here?

If that is so; perhaps you can lead the way and answer them, as well as explain better this statement?

Hi Nadi; I thought it might be helpful for you to see the "official" view point on "The Investigative Judgment." Sometimes called The PreAdvent Judgment. When you have a chance to read it and think about it, then maybe we could answer more specific questions you might have about it? This is taken from the 27 Fundamental beliefs book. There is now, a similar book out with 28 fundamentals listed.

There is more explanation of this in the book, but they do make the point that what I have quoted here is the only part that is "official." I hope this helps.

Thanks for posting that, Wanderer. I have read this before but do not have a copy with me at this time.

Give me a little time to unpack it and demonstrate the kind of support I would consider adequate for a doctrine such as this.

That sounds good. Take your time. There's no rush on my end. I will say one more brief comment. This doctrine appealed to me quite a bit when I first became a Christian. Out of all the possible doctrines that might have convinced me to be baptized and commit myself to God, this was the one that did it. That being said, I am totally in support of people asking questions, but I will not fight or argue about it. Its just something i found very helpful, and I will share what I know.

We need to look at all scripture (but of course we can't quote all scripture in any one post, that's the frustrating part) but
that is the only way the whole subject of the sanctuary really shines forth as truth.

As to this "evil"-- who is responsible?

How do you balance your texts with these texts?

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

Anyone who says God works or does evil is basically saying God is not holy. Thus of course we wouldn't have any call to be holy either.
That of course is Satan's lie, so how does scripture reconcile this?


God did NOT create sin, God created perfect intelligent beings, with the capacity to love, praise, think, understand, and choose. There were no calamities, sickness, etc. etc. in the perfection of God's finished creation.

Scripture says of all God's creation:

Gen. 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.


Sin challenged God's righteous government?
Sin is rebellion against God's moral law?
Sin is evil and totally messes up God's perfect creation.
The whole mess the human race is in is due to the rejection of God's righteous government which is based upon His moral law.

That is the whole controversy.

In Isaiah 14 we read that -- A highly exalted created being allowed little thoughts to grow in his mind -- he began to think he was too bright and brilliant to subject himself to God's government, he would establish his form of government above God's government.

God is all powerful -- He could have wiped the rebellion out right at the start. He could stop all evil in an instant -- or allow the evil doers to exercise their will.

If you really read your scriptures you will find a God who wants people to LOVE Him and serve Him, not because they HAVE to, but because the WANT to.
Remember the verse "IF YOU LOVE ME, keep my commandments" (John 14:15)
In other words -- the "love me" comes first, obedience joyfully follows.

But in a perfect world -- the heavenly hosts had never experienced a life outside of God's will --
-- that doubting angel began planting doubts in their perfect minds.
-- "did God tell you to do this, or not do that -- God knows that if you disobey you will be like him -- you're will be elevated to new heights! (See Gen 3:1-5 for a sample of satan's method of placing doubts about God in unsuspecting minds)

If God had simply put an end to it then and there -- would the created beings have obeyed Him because they loved Him and loved His righteous, holy ways, or would they have served only out of duty or fear?

Earth thus became a "theater" so to speak.
God says -- OK let's just see where this "new government" (the freedom from God's law) style leads.

Thus created beings who thought they were "smarter" than God (who like Lucifer want to set their thrones above God's throne Is 14) were allowed to show what the results would be.

What most don't realize is just how much God has RESTRAINED evil, so that life is still somewhat bearable on this earth,
where the "prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph 2:3)stakes out his claims.

Just read the book of Isaiah, especially the chapters 40 and onward -- how God is pleading with his people to look to Him, He alone is the source of salvation and hope, why do they turn away and go after to those stupid idols and their rebellious ways? Time and again they turned away from God, and God allowed their enemies to harass them, then they would cry unto the LORD, and He would raise up a deliverer and deliver them, but no sooner were things going well, and they turned away from God, and the cycle went on and on ever spiraling downward. (see Psalms 106-107).
People today are no different. Why can't people see the goodness of God and the deceitful poison of sin?
Instead they tend to blame God for the mess that sin has made.

The investigative judgment -- that judgment at which the entire heavenly host is a witness (See Daniel 7) is allowed to view the situation in it's true light, before God executes any final judgment. God's patient dealings working to draw people to Himself -- to LIFE! vs the workings of sin and the resulting damage to emotional, mental and physical well being which this rejection of the only One who can save, brings! All fully are opened.

God will not put an end to sin until all realize the truth of the matter-- and the justice, as well as holiness, and righteousness of God in all His works.
Those who want God's blessings and protection, just so they can continue to live a life of rebellion against God's will and moral laws -- would never be happy or even be able to live in God's presence.

Those who are saved, and cleansed by Christ's blood, will without a shadow of a doubt know and rejoice that God's ways are great, awesome, wonderful and that's the way they WANT to live, they LOVE HIM, and long to be in fellowship with HIM, forever. They will know that in Him there is NO DARKNESS at all.
The scriptures are full of texts of praise from those who contemplate God's holiness.

So yes -- the IJ is an integral part, and is both biblical as well as making sense in bringing the controversy to an end.

To tack onto what dedication said above, if Isaiah 45:7 is meant to be taken in the literal sense that God actually created evil then James 1:13 is a lie, for James said, God tempts no man.

The only way these two verses can be harmonized is to understand that God is taking the responsibility for evil because He gave us the power of choice, and with the power of choice came the possibility of evil. In that way, and that way alone, can God be said to have created evil.

Wanderer, here is a partial breakdown of my thinking on the IJ issue. It is by no means complete, but I thought I would just get started and hope to clarify things as they come up. I have broken down the doctrine sentence by sentence (ish). Scriptural support which applies to that sentence, and my comments and concerns, are in red. I do not disagree with all of it; much of it is factually Biblical. But I think the early Adventists pushed it too far, largely as a face-saving mechanism as a result of the failed Great Disappointment.

*************************************

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. Heb. 8:2

In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. Heb. 7:24, 25; 8:2

He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. Heb. 1:3; 4:14; 8:1

In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry.
It is not established that:
Christ has several "phases" to his work, or that some are incomplete. On the cross he said it was "finished."
I do not see the validity of linking the time-line of the 2300 days in Daniel 8 with the start date of the decree in Daniel 9.



It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.
It has not been demonstrated that the Bible links the sanctuary and its services to the prophecies of Daniel.
It has not been shown that God, who is omniscient, needs to "investigate" anything. God knows who are his.

In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. Hebrews 9:11-28


The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences (Who, exactly?) who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. Why do they need to know? It is God who judges. God knows his own.

It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom.
This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom.

The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.
It has not been shown that Christ's ministry was not complete at the cross.
(Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13,14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev.16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12;22:12.)

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I belive it is more accurate to put this "judgement" or, more correctly, process of examining the "books" in the 1000 year period at the end of time. This then allows humans to review God's process and realize his righteousness. (although even this idea raises questions that should be examined.)

Here is a quote from Harold A. McGregor Jr. writing in Spectrum December 6, 2013.

"Supporting evidence for the I.J. is often hard to understand, convoluted, contradictory, very technical, highly debatable, inaccessible, or nonexistent. In other words, it is hardly the model of a secure and reasonable biblical doctrine."

Read the entire short article here:

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/haro...e-main-problems

If anyone knows who McGregor is I would appreciate it if you would post it. I do not know him and could find mothing about him.

Hm - are you and I still sinners? Was the Passover the completion of the the Jewish economy or were their other aspects to yet come? Pentecost, Trumpets, The Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles? Christ offered a complete sacrifice on the Cross. But was this the end of His ministry? No.

I'm really not sure what you are trying to say here.

Just wanted to add--
One of the reasons most Christians can see no sense in a last day Investigative Judgment is because they don't believe that the dead are literally dead (as in totally unconscious body and soul, and uninvolved with life in any way). Thus in much of Christian theology, the dead go immediately to hell or to heaven or, some, like the Catholics have an intermittent place called purgatory --
The point -- why have a judgment if sentence is already executed at the time of death? Why have a future judgment at all if those beliefs were correct?

The Cross was typified by which Jewish Feast? Was that feast at the beginning or end of the Jewish annual feast cycle? What did each feast typify? That is what I'm talking about Christ's ministry was not completed on the Cross. His Sacrifice was completed on the Cross. But that was only the beginning of the Jewish cycle. Read Leviticus 23.

What has not been shown by those who say "Christ's ministry was finished at the cross" is that Christ meant His entire ministry when He said "It is finished".
The designation of WHAT was finished in that sentence is speculation, not Biblical.

So the Question?

What was finished at the cross?

Was it a specific and central work Christ had come to earth to perform?
If so, what is that specific and central work?
Or was all of Christ's ministry complete at that point?

APL is pointing us to the festivals -- these festivals are a blue print of salvation.
Christ died on Passover, the first feast in the Jewish year -- and He provided the ONCE AND FOR ALL SACRIFICE, the true Passover Lamb -- opening up a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Heb. 10:20

So obviously Christ's ministry is not finished.


The feast of Pentecost was yet future, it came after the cross when, Christ, now inaugurated and ministering as our high priest in heaven, sent the Holy Spirit to His followers, enabling them to witness with power to the nations and live Christ filled lives.

The book of Hebrews shows Christ ministering AFTER the cross, doing a very important work of mediation, and preparing people for the heavenly kingdom.

8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant,
8:6

While the work Christ had come to earth to fulfill was finished, and the sacrifice once and for all completed, Christ's ministry didn't end at the cross.

Just like the Passover festival didn't end the Jewish yearly feasts-- but signify more of Christ's ministry.

There are yet the fall festivals
The day of atonement when the sanctuary was cleansed, and any unrepentant sinners were "cut off" from Israel.

Hebrews 9:23 speaks of the heavenly things needing to be cleansed as well. Yes, the once and for all sacrifice is adequate for that service, yet according to the "blue print" the day of atonement happens near the end, not at the same time as the Passover.
It was a day of judgment, but it still was not the last festival.

Then came the joyous feast of tabernacles celebrating the entry into the land of Canaan.
Typifying God's faithful entering the heavenly Canaan!


It is after the plagues have fallen and Christ is about to come that the announcement is made --
IT IS DONE. Rev. 16:17

What is done at that point?

The time has come for the marriage supper of the Lamb!

That is yet future -- and Christ is ministering NOW in preparation for it.