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#183424 - 04/23/17 08:13 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Alchemy]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2191
Loc: Canada
Sorry, I didn't noticed you had replied.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Deut. 32:9; For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

I hope this helps.

Yeah, this is found also in Deuteronomy 4:20, 9:26 and 29, IKings 8:53, IIKings 21:14, Psalm 28:9, Psalm 33:12, Psalm 74:2, Psalm 78:62, Psalm 78:71, Psalm 94:14, Psalm 106:5, Psalm 106:40, Isaiah 19:25, Isaiah 47:6, Isaiah 63:17, Jeremiah 10:16, Jeremiah 51:9, and Ephesians 1:18.

The truth of the law of inheritance is found throughout the Bible. The NT authors all saw it as the foundation of the plan of salvation for if you look at the Greek words they used that are translated as redeem, redeemed, redemption, etc... they all have to do with ransom and purchasing. When John talks about the redeemed in Revelation the Greek word means to go to market, by implication, to purchase so to him the redeemed are those purchased from the earth. In Paul's writings where we find the word redemption it comes from a Greek word meaning the act of paying a ransom in full. In Luke 24:21 the word redeemed comes from a Greek word meaning to ransom. The disappointed disciples in that story were saying they thought Jesus was the one who was to ransom Israel.

In the OT every time we see the word redeemer it comes from the Hebrew word ga'al, which is tied directly to the the law in which an Isrealite could redeem the land or the children his relative had to sell to pay his debts.

Moses ties ransom and atonement together too.


Quote:
Elle : According to Paul & OT definition of redemption--- does the redeemed ones have to pay their debt once they are redeemed?

Alchemy : I say No! We can never pay the debt! Only the sinless Son of God could pay the debt for all mankind.

Yet, Satan does suffer for the sins of the redeemed. But, even Satan doesn't pay for the debt of the redeemed.

Elle : ...Let's keep this simple and keep satan aside.

I do agree with Alchemy that only Jesus could pay the debt of the world. But that's not what my question was focusing on.

The question is : What happens after we are redeemed .... that's where we might be in dissagreement. What I see scripture saying is the redeemed ones still have to work(=pay) for their debt they incurred after being redeemed.

Anyone who agree or disagree with my answer? Please provide scriptures source for yours; and I will supply scriptures also.

Alchemy : I do believe that God has us re-visit areas in our characters which have caused us to sin and fall in the past to teach us to gain the victory over those weaknesses. But, I don't believe we pay for the sins we committed.

I believe much importance should be given to how we think about God and come to understand God's attitude toward us better.

Tx Alchemy. First responding to what I have bolded and underlined in your statement above. I think, your understanding is not in line with Biblical definition. GaryK comment above didn't have that understanding either. That's why I brought it up as this is directly linked to the Lord's judgment on sin.

So I'll try to pull out some clear points that the Bible says about the subject:

1. Sin == debt : Scripture equates sin to a debt (Compare the Lord's prayer in Luk 11:4 "forgive our sins" with Mar 6:12 "forgive our debts").

2. If you cannot pay your debt -- you are sold : In Ex 22:3 is where this basic law is found saying that restitution needs to be paid and if he doesn't have the money to pay, his labor needs to be sold to pay his debt."...[for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

The Lord has put Ex 22:3 in application many times by selling the COI(Children of Israel) for their sins by putting them in captivity to foreign nations. Many plain examples are found in the book of Judges where the Lord has SOLD the COI 6 times to foreign nations. (see the explicit wording in Judg 2:14 "he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about";3:18"he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim";4:2"And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan";10:7 "and he sold them into the hands of the Philistines") There's many other texts and example that is found elsewhere in the Bible, but the above should be enough to establish this basic principle.

3. Those that bought your debt is your Redeemer : In essence the foreign nation that the COI was sold to, acts as a redeemer. Basically, a redeemer is responsible to pay up the debt with the work of their acquired slaves. The debt of COI was owed to the Lord. He has no interest to paid in gold or silver, but with the good "fruits" for His kingdom. So if the Foreign Nations were not capable of delivering the fruits of the Kingdom of God that the COI wasn't able to produce at the first place... then the Foreign Nations will also undergo some judgment for failing to pay up the debt. The Kingdom will be taken away from them too like it was taken away from the COI. Meanwhile, the responsibility to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom was removed from the backs of the COI and was transferred to the Redeemer. Despite these foreign nations that acted as a redeemer failed to deliver the fruits(pay the debt); it did removed this responsibility from the backs of the COI and did give them some rest. It doesn't mean they didn't have to work during those years; but the responsibility of the debt was on the Redeemer's back and not on theirs. The responsibility of the debt being on the Redeemer's back is a very crucial point to understand in terms of the plan of salvation and the Lord's judgment.

4. The difference between a Redeemer and the close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): There's two types of Redeemer that can purchase our debt, #1)A distant-related Redeemer; #2) A close of kin Redeemer. According to the law, if a slave is already working for #1-distant redeemer, a #2-close of kin redeemer have the right by law to purchase you from the hands of #1-distant redeemer. Lev 25:25; 25:49; and the book of Ruth.

5. The debt transfer from the #1-distant redeemer to the #2-close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): So when #2-close of Kin Redeemer exercise His right by taking the slave from #1 the distant-Redeemer's hand... the debt is transferred from #1 to #2 Redeemer. It is true that a Redeemer is ultimately responsible to pay for the debt; however this doesn't mean your debt is forgiven and you don't have to work for your redeemer to pay for it. It is to the Redeemer's discretion how much you need to work, what you need to do, and when & how much is to be forgiven if any portion is to be forgiven before the Jubilee comes.

The advantage of having a #2-close of kin Redeemer is a #1-distant redeemer will tend to work hard their slaves and have no sympathy or understanding. Whereas the #2-close of kin Redeemer will be more kind, loving, having much understanding and wisdom in knowing how to bring about the good "fruits" the Father seeks for.

However, always remember the responsibility is on the Redeemer's back (not ours) to bring us to deliver those fruits that the Father has required since Adam.

Then Scripture also tells us that our Lord(#2-close of kin Redeemer) have yoked himself to us so to make our load lighter and more bearable. Note that the Lord is not only the Redeemer of us believers, but also the Redeemer of the whole World. Will Jesus succeed to bring about the fruits of the Kingdom in all of us that the Father requires? If Jesus, the Redeemer of the World, doesn't succeed....then judgment will fall on Him not us for this failure -- because He is the Redeemer and the responsibility is on Him and not on US. But we do know that Jesus will succeed. Right?

We find the most explicit definition of the function of the Redeemer and how our debt can be paid, with or without a #2-close of kin redeemer, define in the law of Jubilee. (Read Lev 25:25-28;47-54). Those that were redeemed had to work for their debt until the year of Jubilee.

We also see the same principle in the sacrificial services, where the blood is said to be only a covering of sin (not erased yet) . For the sin to be removed(or cleanse) from the temple, it requires the work of the second “live” goat & dove as shown in Lev 16 & 14.

We also see that Paul, James, Peter, Jude, John, etc… all had this understanding and referred to themselves as “servant” [doulos, slave] to the Lord. The Greek word “doulos” means “slave” and a slave is a worker that obeys the command of their Master-Redeemer.

6. The debt is to be paid until paid in full or until the Jubilee time come : The debt to be paid to either Redeemer #1 or #2 is always calculated according to the remaining years left until the Jubilee. Once the Jubilee comes, only then that all debts are cancelled, whether the debt is paid in full or not. (see Lev 25:25-28; 47-54).

Originally Posted By: Elle
This is going off-topic, however redemption is related to this subject. …
My point is really brief and I would link this to the subject of Investigative Judgment.

Any judgments whether investigative or not, has to be viewed according to the Biblical definition of the judgment of sin given in point #2 above where Ex 22:3 and Lev 5:16 saying that a restitution for sin has to be paid. Further details how the debt can be paid with or without a Redeemer is given in the law of Jubilee.

So to me, SDAs [investigative] Judgment description & timing is absolutely not in harmony with the Lord’s judgment defined in the law.

SDAs investigative judgment teaching fails :

#1 : By not having the same judgment definition "restitution must be paid" described in Ex 22:3, Lev 5:16 and elsewhere.

#2 : by not having the biblical definition of the Redeemer. That the responsibility to pay our debt and the world's debt rest 100% on the redeemer and not on us(or the world). If at the end of time, if anyone of us or in the world fails to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom, then this failure is not on our head but it is on our Redeemer's head.

#3 : our timing of the scope of the judgment for sin is not in line with what is define in the law of Jubilee.

#4 : Also SDAs IJ doctrine does not account the time limit to pay for our debt that is set in the law of Jubilee -- when all debt are cancelled at the Jubilee whether or not you have paid your debt in full. All debt are cancel and all is set free at the Jubilee.

In my view, we need to get first in sync with the Lord's definition of words and with His laws established to deal with sin, before tackling more complicated truths like understanding Daniel's prophecies.
_________________________
Blessings
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#183461 - 04/25/17 09:11 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Elle]
Alchemy Online   content
SDA
Active Member 2017

Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 2057
Loc: Asia
Originally Posted By: Elle
Sorry, I didn't noticed you had replied.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Deut. 32:9; For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

I hope this helps.

Yeah, this is found also in Deuteronomy 4:20, 9:26 and 29, IKings 8:53, IIKings 21:14, Psalm 28:9, Psalm 33:12, Psalm 74:2, Psalm 78:62, Psalm 78:71, Psalm 94:14, Psalm 106:5, Psalm 106:40, Isaiah 19:25, Isaiah 47:6, Isaiah 63:17, Jeremiah 10:16, Jeremiah 51:9, and Ephesians 1:18.

The truth of the law of inheritance is found throughout the Bible. The NT authors all saw it as the foundation of the plan of salvation for if you look at the Greek words they used that are translated as redeem, redeemed, redemption, etc... they all have to do with ransom and purchasing. When John talks about the redeemed in Revelation the Greek word means to go to market, by implication, to purchase so to him the redeemed are those purchased from the earth. In Paul's writings where we find the word redemption it comes from a Greek word meaning the act of paying a ransom in full. In Luke 24:21 the word redeemed comes from a Greek word meaning to ransom. The disappointed disciples in that story were saying they thought Jesus was the one who was to ransom Israel.

In the OT every time we see the word redeemer it comes from the Hebrew word ga'al, which is tied directly to the the law in which an Isrealite could redeem the land or the children his relative had to sell to pay his debts.

Moses ties ransom and atonement together too.


Quote:
Elle : According to Paul & OT definition of redemption--- does the redeemed ones have to pay their debt once they are redeemed?

Alchemy : I say No! We can never pay the debt! Only the sinless Son of God could pay the debt for all mankind.

Yet, Satan does suffer for the sins of the redeemed. But, even Satan doesn't pay for the debt of the redeemed.

Elle : ...Let's keep this simple and keep satan aside.

I do agree with Alchemy that only Jesus could pay the debt of the world. But that's not what my question was focusing on.

The question is : What happens after we are redeemed .... that's where we might be in dissagreement. What I see scripture saying is the redeemed ones still have to work(=pay) for their debt they incurred after being redeemed.

Anyone who agree or disagree with my answer? Please provide scriptures source for yours; and I will supply scriptures also.

Alchemy : I do believe that God has us re-visit areas in our characters which have caused us to sin and fall in the past to teach us to gain the victory over those weaknesses. But, I don't believe we pay for the sins we committed.

I believe much importance should be given to how we think about God and come to understand God's attitude toward us better.

Tx Alchemy. First responding to what I have bolded and underlined in your statement above. I think, your understanding is not in line with Biblical definition. GaryK comment above didn't have that understanding either. That's why I brought it up as this is directly linked to the Lord's judgment on sin.

So I'll try to pull out some clear points that the Bible says about the subject:

1. Sin == debt : Scripture equates sin to a debt (Compare the Lord's prayer in Luk 11:4 "forgive our sins" with Mar 6:12 "forgive our debts").

2. If you cannot pay your debt -- you are sold : In Ex 22:3 is where this basic law is found saying that restitution needs to be paid and if he doesn't have the money to pay, his labor needs to be sold to pay his debt."...[for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

The Lord has put Ex 22:3 in application many times by selling the COI(Children of Israel) for their sins by putting them in captivity to foreign nations. Many plain examples are found in the book of Judges where the Lord has SOLD the COI 6 times to foreign nations. (see the explicit wording in Judg 2:14 "he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about";3:18"he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim";4:2"And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan";10:7 "and he sold them into the hands of the Philistines") There's many other texts and example that is found elsewhere in the Bible, but the above should be enough to establish this basic principle.

3. Those that bought your debt is your Redeemer : In essence the foreign nation that the COI was sold to, acts as a redeemer. Basically, a redeemer is responsible to pay up the debt with the work of their acquired slaves. The debt of COI was owed to the Lord. He has no interest to paid in gold or silver, but with the good "fruits" for His kingdom. So if the Foreign Nations were not capable of delivering the fruits of the Kingdom of God that the COI wasn't able to produce at the first place... then the Foreign Nations will also undergo some judgment for failing to pay up the debt. The Kingdom will be taken away from them too like it was taken away from the COI. Meanwhile, the responsibility to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom was removed from the backs of the COI and was transferred to the Redeemer. Despite these foreign nations that acted as a redeemer failed to deliver the fruits(pay the debt); it did removed this responsibility from the backs of the COI and did give them some rest. It doesn't mean they didn't have to work during those years; but the responsibility of the debt was on the Redeemer's back and not on theirs. The responsibility of the debt being on the Redeemer's back is a very crucial point to understand in terms of the plan of salvation and the Lord's judgment.

4. The difference between a Redeemer and the close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): There's two types of Redeemer that can purchase our debt, #1)A distant-related Redeemer; #2) A close of kin Redeemer. According to the law, if a slave is already working for #1-distant redeemer, a #2-close of kin redeemer have the right by law to purchase you from the hands of #1-distant redeemer. Lev 25:25; 25:49; and the book of Ruth.

5. The debt transfer from the #1-distant redeemer to the #2-close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): So when #2-close of Kin Redeemer exercise His right by taking the slave from #1 the distant-Redeemer's hand... the debt is transferred from #1 to #2 Redeemer. It is true that a Redeemer is ultimately responsible to pay for the debt; however this doesn't mean your debt is forgiven and you don't have to work for your redeemer to pay for it. It is to the Redeemer's discretion how much you need to work, what you need to do, and when & how much is to be forgiven if any portion is to be forgiven before the Jubilee comes.

The advantage of having a #2-close of kin Redeemer is a #1-distant redeemer will tend to work hard their slaves and have no sympathy or understanding. Whereas the #2-close of kin Redeemer will be more kind, loving, having much understanding and wisdom in knowing how to bring about the good "fruits" the Father seeks for.

However, always remember the responsibility is on the Redeemer's back (not ours) to bring us to deliver those fruits that the Father has required since Adam.

Then Scripture also tells us that our Lord(#2-close of kin Redeemer) have yoked himself to us so to make our load lighter and more bearable. Note that the Lord is not only the Redeemer of us believers, but also the Redeemer of the whole World. Will Jesus succeed to bring about the fruits of the Kingdom in all of us that the Father requires? If Jesus, the Redeemer of the World, doesn't succeed....then judgment will fall on Him not us for this failure -- because He is the Redeemer and the responsibility is on Him and not on US. But we do know that Jesus will succeed. Right?

We find the most explicit definition of the function of the Redeemer and how our debt can be paid, with or without a #2-close of kin redeemer, define in the law of Jubilee. (Read Lev 25:25-28;47-54). Those that were redeemed had to work for their debt until the year of Jubilee.

We also see the same principle in the sacrificial services, where the blood is said to be only a covering of sin (not erased yet) . For the sin to be removed(or cleanse) from the temple, it requires the work of the second “live” goat & dove as shown in Lev 16 & 14.

We also see that Paul, James, Peter, Jude, John, etc… all had this understanding and referred to themselves as “servant” [doulos, slave] to the Lord. The Greek word “doulos” means “slave” and a slave is a worker that obeys the command of their Master-Redeemer.

6. The debt is to be paid until paid in full or until the Jubilee time come : The debt to be paid to either Redeemer #1 or #2 is always calculated according to the remaining years left until the Jubilee. Once the Jubilee comes, only then that all debts are cancelled, whether the debt is paid in full or not. (see Lev 25:25-28; 47-54).

Originally Posted By: Elle
This is going off-topic, however redemption is related to this subject. …
My point is really brief and I would link this to the subject of Investigative Judgment.

Any judgments whether investigative or not, has to be viewed according to the Biblical definition of the judgment of sin given in point #2 above where Ex 22:3 and Lev 5:16 saying that a restitution for sin has to be paid. Further details how the debt can be paid with or without a Redeemer is given in the law of Jubilee.

So to me, SDAs [investigative] Judgment description & timing is absolutely not in harmony with the Lord’s judgment defined in the law.

SDAs investigative judgment teaching fails :

#1 : By not having the same judgment definition "restitution must be paid" described in Ex 22:3, Lev 5:16 and elsewhere.

#2 : by not having the biblical definition of the Redeemer. That the responsibility to pay our debt and the world's debt rest 100% on the redeemer and not on us(or the world). If at the end of time, if anyone of us or in the world fails to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom, then this failure is not on our head but it is on our Redeemer's head.

#3 : our timing of the scope of the judgment for sin is not in line with what is define in the law of Jubilee.

#4 : Also SDAs IJ doctrine does not account the time limit to pay for our debt that is set in the law of Jubilee -- when all debt are cancelled at the Jubilee whether or not you have paid your debt in full. All debt are cancel and all is set free at the Jubilee.

In my view, we need to get first in sync with the Lord's definition of words and with His laws established to deal with sin, before tackling more complicated truths like understanding Daniel's prophecies.


I understand the wages of sin is death. I think I understand your point about debt. There is a debt to pay and Jesus pays that debt for us. Then Jesus coordinates the payment of the debt and His Second Coming, to demonstrate His people don't have any debt to worry about and have every right to the tree of life.

Have I missed anything?
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#183500 - 04/29/17 12:47 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi]
dedication Online   content
Group: Admin Team
3500+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 3802
Loc: Canada
Yes, Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe,
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
All who come to Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin in this probationary time (our earthly lives) will be saved.

But that's not really what Elle is saying.
She believes that all people will be saved.
Her last point #2 says it is the responsibility of the redeemer to make sure every last person is saved, if anyone is lost it is not their failure but it is the redeemer's failure.

Thus, in her thinking the Adventist understanding of the investigative judgment just does not fit in, because the pre-advent investigative judgment makes a distinction between those who have responded to Christ's call and are saved by the blood of the Lamb, and those who only made a profession but clung to sin and are not saved. Christ's second coming does not bring in a new era in which people are re-educated to "bring forth the fruits of the kingdom". At Christ's second coming it is too late to change.
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#183506 - 04/29/17 11:06 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: dedication]
Alchemy Online   content
SDA
Active Member 2017

Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 2057
Loc: Asia
Originally Posted By: dedication
Yes, Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe,
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
All who come to Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin in this probationary time (our earthly lives) will be saved.

But that's not really what Elle is saying.
She believes that all people will be saved.
Her last point #2 says it is the responsibility of the redeemer to make sure every last person is saved, if anyone is lost it is not their failure but it is the redeemer's failure.

Thus, in her thinking the Adventist understanding of the investigative judgment just does not fit in, because the pre-advent investigative judgment makes a distinction between those who have responded to Christ's call and are saved by the blood of the Lamb, and those who only made a profession but clung to sin and are not saved. Christ's second coming does not bring in a new era in which people are re-educated to "bring forth the fruits of the kingdom". At Christ's second coming it is too late to change.


Amen.

I hope everyone here, including Elle, comes to understand that the Godhead has done everything divinely possible to save every human being ever to live.

But, God will never compromise His law or force anyone. People can be lost, even professed Christians.
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#183511 - 04/29/17 10:31 PM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Alchemy]
dedication Online   content
Group: Admin Team
3500+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 3802
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy



I hope everyone here, including Elle, comes to understand that the Godhead has done everything divinely possible to save every human being ever to live.

But, God will never compromise His law or force anyone. People can be lost, even professed Christians.



True!
There is no way we can pay for even the tiniest part of our salvation. but we do have the freedom to chose or reject the salvation bought for us.

Those restitution laws are concerning how we are to deal with our fellow man. If someone has taken something from someone else, they are to restore it. If someone causes the destruction of someone else's property, they need to make amends. If we owe someone money, we should repay it. That is NOT paying for our salvation, it is learning to live a decent life in society.

The redemption laws of ancient Israel had two purposes:
1. in a society where the evils of slavery and debt and other misfortunes were rampant, God put in place laws to make life more bearable for them.
2. The laws of the "redeemer" were to point people to the Great Redeemer, Who would save them from sin.

To try and transcribe laws made to meet the evils of their society, point by point into how Christ redeems His people, is just not reasonable or correct. However,the main theme that a near kinsman redeems (pays the debt so they can be free) points to Christ as our "near kinsman" who pays the debt so we can be free.


Quote:
"There was no power in the law to pardon its transgressor. Jesus alone could pay the sinner's debt.{1SM 229.2}

Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not
possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him. {FW 19.3}

He was to come as one of the human family, and to stand as a man before heaven and earth. He had come to take our place, to pledge Himself in our behalf, to pay the debt that sinners owed. He was to live a pure life on the earth, and show that Satan had told a falsehood when he claimed that the human family belonged to him forever, and that God could not take the race out of his hands. {CTr 222.2}

"The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercession of God's Son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery. {EW 127.1}
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#183512 - 04/29/17 10:51 PM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: dedication]
dedication Online   content
Group: Admin Team
3500+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 3802
Loc: Canada
And as we understand that how does it affect our understanding of the investigative judgment?

In order to pass the scrutiny of that judgment we must be perfect! Even one sin would condemn us to death, and we've all committed a multitude of sins.
But we have the promise:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Standing before the broken law of God, the sinner cannot cleanse himself; but, believing in Christ, he is the object of His infinite love and clothed in His spotless righteousness.
Who can comprehend the nature of that righteousness
which makes the believing sinner whole, presenting him to God without spot or wrinkle or any such thing? We have the pledged word of God that Christ is made unto us righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.
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Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by James Peterson
Yesterday at 11:39 AM
The Euphrates & Kings of the North, South & East
by Mark Shipowick
05/25/17 09:50 AM
The Second Coming, the Trumpet Blasts, the Bowls of Wrath, and Inheriting the Earth
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05/24/17 10:26 AM
Daniel 9 and the 144,000
by kland
05/24/17 10:05 AM
Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold.
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A new Global Economic Restructure in 2012
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Vaccines/Immunizatio
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by Alchemy
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"Easter" Questions
by dedication
05/04/17 02:01 AM
Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical?
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by dedication
04/29/17 01:53 AM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
What happens during the seventh seal? Revelation 8:1
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