HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums & Chat Rooms
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested $20 or Higher Donations Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading
Donations accepted: Here
Shout Box

Newest Members
Heidi K, Frmdusk2dawn, Fred88, Christian G, The Wanderer
1291 Registered Users
Forum Stats
1291 Members
118 Forums
8568 Topics
183604 Posts

Max Online: 1283 @ 05/14/17 03:59 PM
Who's OnIine In
Chat Room #1?
Right Click Here & Select "Open in New Tab or Window" to Enter Chat Room #1 or Just Simply Click Here
Join the following presently in Chat Room #1:

Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

Top Posters (30 Days)
APL 58
dedication 56
Alchemy 56
The Wanderer 29
kland 25
ProdigalOne 9
Mark Shipowick 8
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
Featured Member
APL
APL
Registered: 01/31/11
Posts: 5438
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
10 registered (His child, dedication, Mark Shipowick, Josh M, Alchemy, ProdigalOne, Karen Y, 3 invisible), 297 Guests and 7 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 5 of 15 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 14 15 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#183424 - 04/23/17 08:13 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Alchemy]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2274
Loc: Canada
Sorry, I didn't noticed you had replied.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Deut. 32:9; For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

I hope this helps.

Yeah, this is found also in Deuteronomy 4:20, 9:26 and 29, IKings 8:53, IIKings 21:14, Psalm 28:9, Psalm 33:12, Psalm 74:2, Psalm 78:62, Psalm 78:71, Psalm 94:14, Psalm 106:5, Psalm 106:40, Isaiah 19:25, Isaiah 47:6, Isaiah 63:17, Jeremiah 10:16, Jeremiah 51:9, and Ephesians 1:18.

The truth of the law of inheritance is found throughout the Bible. The NT authors all saw it as the foundation of the plan of salvation for if you look at the Greek words they used that are translated as redeem, redeemed, redemption, etc... they all have to do with ransom and purchasing. When John talks about the redeemed in Revelation the Greek word means to go to market, by implication, to purchase so to him the redeemed are those purchased from the earth. In Paul's writings where we find the word redemption it comes from a Greek word meaning the act of paying a ransom in full. In Luke 24:21 the word redeemed comes from a Greek word meaning to ransom. The disappointed disciples in that story were saying they thought Jesus was the one who was to ransom Israel.

In the OT every time we see the word redeemer it comes from the Hebrew word ga'al, which is tied directly to the the law in which an Isrealite could redeem the land or the children his relative had to sell to pay his debts.

Moses ties ransom and atonement together too.


Quote:
Elle : According to Paul & OT definition of redemption--- does the redeemed ones have to pay their debt once they are redeemed?

Alchemy : I say No! We can never pay the debt! Only the sinless Son of God could pay the debt for all mankind.

Yet, Satan does suffer for the sins of the redeemed. But, even Satan doesn't pay for the debt of the redeemed.

Elle : ...Let's keep this simple and keep satan aside.

I do agree with Alchemy that only Jesus could pay the debt of the world. But that's not what my question was focusing on.

The question is : What happens after we are redeemed .... that's where we might be in dissagreement. What I see scripture saying is the redeemed ones still have to work(=pay) for their debt they incurred after being redeemed.

Anyone who agree or disagree with my answer? Please provide scriptures source for yours; and I will supply scriptures also.

Alchemy : I do believe that God has us re-visit areas in our characters which have caused us to sin and fall in the past to teach us to gain the victory over those weaknesses. But, I don't believe we pay for the sins we committed.

I believe much importance should be given to how we think about God and come to understand God's attitude toward us better.

Tx Alchemy. First responding to what I have bolded and underlined in your statement above. I think, your understanding is not in line with Biblical definition. GaryK comment above didn't have that understanding either. That's why I brought it up as this is directly linked to the Lord's judgment on sin.

So I'll try to pull out some clear points that the Bible says about the subject:

1. Sin == debt : Scripture equates sin to a debt (Compare the Lord's prayer in Luk 11:4 "forgive our sins" with Mar 6:12 "forgive our debts").

2. If you cannot pay your debt -- you are sold : In Ex 22:3 is where this basic law is found saying that restitution needs to be paid and if he doesn't have the money to pay, his labor needs to be sold to pay his debt."...[for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

The Lord has put Ex 22:3 in application many times by selling the COI(Children of Israel) for their sins by putting them in captivity to foreign nations. Many plain examples are found in the book of Judges where the Lord has SOLD the COI 6 times to foreign nations. (see the explicit wording in Judg 2:14 "he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about";3:18"he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim";4:2"And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan";10:7 "and he sold them into the hands of the Philistines") There's many other texts and example that is found elsewhere in the Bible, but the above should be enough to establish this basic principle.

3. Those that bought your debt is your Redeemer : In essence the foreign nation that the COI was sold to, acts as a redeemer. Basically, a redeemer is responsible to pay up the debt with the work of their acquired slaves. The debt of COI was owed to the Lord. He has no interest to paid in gold or silver, but with the good "fruits" for His kingdom. So if the Foreign Nations were not capable of delivering the fruits of the Kingdom of God that the COI wasn't able to produce at the first place... then the Foreign Nations will also undergo some judgment for failing to pay up the debt. The Kingdom will be taken away from them too like it was taken away from the COI. Meanwhile, the responsibility to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom was removed from the backs of the COI and was transferred to the Redeemer. Despite these foreign nations that acted as a redeemer failed to deliver the fruits(pay the debt); it did removed this responsibility from the backs of the COI and did give them some rest. It doesn't mean they didn't have to work during those years; but the responsibility of the debt was on the Redeemer's back and not on theirs. The responsibility of the debt being on the Redeemer's back is a very crucial point to understand in terms of the plan of salvation and the Lord's judgment.

4. The difference between a Redeemer and the close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): There's two types of Redeemer that can purchase our debt, #1)A distant-related Redeemer; #2) A close of kin Redeemer. According to the law, if a slave is already working for #1-distant redeemer, a #2-close of kin redeemer have the right by law to purchase you from the hands of #1-distant redeemer. Lev 25:25; 25:49; and the book of Ruth.

5. The debt transfer from the #1-distant redeemer to the #2-close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): So when #2-close of Kin Redeemer exercise His right by taking the slave from #1 the distant-Redeemer's hand... the debt is transferred from #1 to #2 Redeemer. It is true that a Redeemer is ultimately responsible to pay for the debt; however this doesn't mean your debt is forgiven and you don't have to work for your redeemer to pay for it. It is to the Redeemer's discretion how much you need to work, what you need to do, and when & how much is to be forgiven if any portion is to be forgiven before the Jubilee comes.

The advantage of having a #2-close of kin Redeemer is a #1-distant redeemer will tend to work hard their slaves and have no sympathy or understanding. Whereas the #2-close of kin Redeemer will be more kind, loving, having much understanding and wisdom in knowing how to bring about the good "fruits" the Father seeks for.

However, always remember the responsibility is on the Redeemer's back (not ours) to bring us to deliver those fruits that the Father has required since Adam.

Then Scripture also tells us that our Lord(#2-close of kin Redeemer) have yoked himself to us so to make our load lighter and more bearable. Note that the Lord is not only the Redeemer of us believers, but also the Redeemer of the whole World. Will Jesus succeed to bring about the fruits of the Kingdom in all of us that the Father requires? If Jesus, the Redeemer of the World, doesn't succeed....then judgment will fall on Him not us for this failure -- because He is the Redeemer and the responsibility is on Him and not on US. But we do know that Jesus will succeed. Right?

We find the most explicit definition of the function of the Redeemer and how our debt can be paid, with or without a #2-close of kin redeemer, define in the law of Jubilee. (Read Lev 25:25-28;47-54). Those that were redeemed had to work for their debt until the year of Jubilee.

We also see the same principle in the sacrificial services, where the blood is said to be only a covering of sin (not erased yet) . For the sin to be removed(or cleanse) from the temple, it requires the work of the second “live” goat & dove as shown in Lev 16 & 14.

We also see that Paul, James, Peter, Jude, John, etc… all had this understanding and referred to themselves as “servant” [doulos, slave] to the Lord. The Greek word “doulos” means “slave” and a slave is a worker that obeys the command of their Master-Redeemer.

6. The debt is to be paid until paid in full or until the Jubilee time come : The debt to be paid to either Redeemer #1 or #2 is always calculated according to the remaining years left until the Jubilee. Once the Jubilee comes, only then that all debts are cancelled, whether the debt is paid in full or not. (see Lev 25:25-28; 47-54).

Originally Posted By: Elle
This is going off-topic, however redemption is related to this subject. …
My point is really brief and I would link this to the subject of Investigative Judgment.

Any judgments whether investigative or not, has to be viewed according to the Biblical definition of the judgment of sin given in point #2 above where Ex 22:3 and Lev 5:16 saying that a restitution for sin has to be paid. Further details how the debt can be paid with or without a Redeemer is given in the law of Jubilee.

So to me, SDAs [investigative] Judgment description & timing is absolutely not in harmony with the Lord’s judgment defined in the law.

SDAs investigative judgment teaching fails :

#1 : By not having the same judgment definition "restitution must be paid" described in Ex 22:3, Lev 5:16 and elsewhere.

#2 : by not having the biblical definition of the Redeemer. That the responsibility to pay our debt and the world's debt rest 100% on the redeemer and not on us(or the world). If at the end of time, if anyone of us or in the world fails to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom, then this failure is not on our head but it is on our Redeemer's head.

#3 : our timing of the scope of the judgment for sin is not in line with what is define in the law of Jubilee.

#4 : Also SDAs IJ doctrine does not account the time limit to pay for our debt that is set in the law of Jubilee -- when all debt are cancelled at the Jubilee whether or not you have paid your debt in full. All debt are cancel and all is set free at the Jubilee.

In my view, we need to get first in sync with the Lord's definition of words and with His laws established to deal with sin, before tackling more complicated truths like understanding Daniel's prophecies.
_________________________
Blessings
Top
#183461 - 04/25/17 09:11 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Elle]
Alchemy Online   content
SDA
Active Member 2017

Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 2217
Loc: Asia
Originally Posted By: Elle
Sorry, I didn't noticed you had replied.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Deut. 32:9; For the LORD'S portion [is] his people; Jacob [is] the lot of his inheritance.

I hope this helps.

Yeah, this is found also in Deuteronomy 4:20, 9:26 and 29, IKings 8:53, IIKings 21:14, Psalm 28:9, Psalm 33:12, Psalm 74:2, Psalm 78:62, Psalm 78:71, Psalm 94:14, Psalm 106:5, Psalm 106:40, Isaiah 19:25, Isaiah 47:6, Isaiah 63:17, Jeremiah 10:16, Jeremiah 51:9, and Ephesians 1:18.

The truth of the law of inheritance is found throughout the Bible. The NT authors all saw it as the foundation of the plan of salvation for if you look at the Greek words they used that are translated as redeem, redeemed, redemption, etc... they all have to do with ransom and purchasing. When John talks about the redeemed in Revelation the Greek word means to go to market, by implication, to purchase so to him the redeemed are those purchased from the earth. In Paul's writings where we find the word redemption it comes from a Greek word meaning the act of paying a ransom in full. In Luke 24:21 the word redeemed comes from a Greek word meaning to ransom. The disappointed disciples in that story were saying they thought Jesus was the one who was to ransom Israel.

In the OT every time we see the word redeemer it comes from the Hebrew word ga'al, which is tied directly to the the law in which an Isrealite could redeem the land or the children his relative had to sell to pay his debts.

Moses ties ransom and atonement together too.


Quote:
Elle : According to Paul & OT definition of redemption--- does the redeemed ones have to pay their debt once they are redeemed?

Alchemy : I say No! We can never pay the debt! Only the sinless Son of God could pay the debt for all mankind.

Yet, Satan does suffer for the sins of the redeemed. But, even Satan doesn't pay for the debt of the redeemed.

Elle : ...Let's keep this simple and keep satan aside.

I do agree with Alchemy that only Jesus could pay the debt of the world. But that's not what my question was focusing on.

The question is : What happens after we are redeemed .... that's where we might be in dissagreement. What I see scripture saying is the redeemed ones still have to work(=pay) for their debt they incurred after being redeemed.

Anyone who agree or disagree with my answer? Please provide scriptures source for yours; and I will supply scriptures also.

Alchemy : I do believe that God has us re-visit areas in our characters which have caused us to sin and fall in the past to teach us to gain the victory over those weaknesses. But, I don't believe we pay for the sins we committed.

I believe much importance should be given to how we think about God and come to understand God's attitude toward us better.

Tx Alchemy. First responding to what I have bolded and underlined in your statement above. I think, your understanding is not in line with Biblical definition. GaryK comment above didn't have that understanding either. That's why I brought it up as this is directly linked to the Lord's judgment on sin.

So I'll try to pull out some clear points that the Bible says about the subject:

1. Sin == debt : Scripture equates sin to a debt (Compare the Lord's prayer in Luk 11:4 "forgive our sins" with Mar 6:12 "forgive our debts").

2. If you cannot pay your debt -- you are sold : In Ex 22:3 is where this basic law is found saying that restitution needs to be paid and if he doesn't have the money to pay, his labor needs to be sold to pay his debt."...[for] he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft."

The Lord has put Ex 22:3 in application many times by selling the COI(Children of Israel) for their sins by putting them in captivity to foreign nations. Many plain examples are found in the book of Judges where the Lord has SOLD the COI 6 times to foreign nations. (see the explicit wording in Judg 2:14 "he sold them into the hands of their enemies round about";3:18"he sold them into the hand of Chushanrishathaim";4:2"And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan";10:7 "and he sold them into the hands of the Philistines") There's many other texts and example that is found elsewhere in the Bible, but the above should be enough to establish this basic principle.

3. Those that bought your debt is your Redeemer : In essence the foreign nation that the COI was sold to, acts as a redeemer. Basically, a redeemer is responsible to pay up the debt with the work of their acquired slaves. The debt of COI was owed to the Lord. He has no interest to paid in gold or silver, but with the good "fruits" for His kingdom. So if the Foreign Nations were not capable of delivering the fruits of the Kingdom of God that the COI wasn't able to produce at the first place... then the Foreign Nations will also undergo some judgment for failing to pay up the debt. The Kingdom will be taken away from them too like it was taken away from the COI. Meanwhile, the responsibility to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom was removed from the backs of the COI and was transferred to the Redeemer. Despite these foreign nations that acted as a redeemer failed to deliver the fruits(pay the debt); it did removed this responsibility from the backs of the COI and did give them some rest. It doesn't mean they didn't have to work during those years; but the responsibility of the debt was on the Redeemer's back and not on theirs. The responsibility of the debt being on the Redeemer's back is a very crucial point to understand in terms of the plan of salvation and the Lord's judgment.

4. The difference between a Redeemer and the close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): There's two types of Redeemer that can purchase our debt, #1)A distant-related Redeemer; #2) A close of kin Redeemer. According to the law, if a slave is already working for #1-distant redeemer, a #2-close of kin redeemer have the right by law to purchase you from the hands of #1-distant redeemer. Lev 25:25; 25:49; and the book of Ruth.

5. The debt transfer from the #1-distant redeemer to the #2-close of kin Redeemer (ga'al): So when #2-close of Kin Redeemer exercise His right by taking the slave from #1 the distant-Redeemer's hand... the debt is transferred from #1 to #2 Redeemer. It is true that a Redeemer is ultimately responsible to pay for the debt; however this doesn't mean your debt is forgiven and you don't have to work for your redeemer to pay for it. It is to the Redeemer's discretion how much you need to work, what you need to do, and when & how much is to be forgiven if any portion is to be forgiven before the Jubilee comes.

The advantage of having a #2-close of kin Redeemer is a #1-distant redeemer will tend to work hard their slaves and have no sympathy or understanding. Whereas the #2-close of kin Redeemer will be more kind, loving, having much understanding and wisdom in knowing how to bring about the good "fruits" the Father seeks for.

However, always remember the responsibility is on the Redeemer's back (not ours) to bring us to deliver those fruits that the Father has required since Adam.

Then Scripture also tells us that our Lord(#2-close of kin Redeemer) have yoked himself to us so to make our load lighter and more bearable. Note that the Lord is not only the Redeemer of us believers, but also the Redeemer of the whole World. Will Jesus succeed to bring about the fruits of the Kingdom in all of us that the Father requires? If Jesus, the Redeemer of the World, doesn't succeed....then judgment will fall on Him not us for this failure -- because He is the Redeemer and the responsibility is on Him and not on US. But we do know that Jesus will succeed. Right?

We find the most explicit definition of the function of the Redeemer and how our debt can be paid, with or without a #2-close of kin redeemer, define in the law of Jubilee. (Read Lev 25:25-28;47-54). Those that were redeemed had to work for their debt until the year of Jubilee.

We also see the same principle in the sacrificial services, where the blood is said to be only a covering of sin (not erased yet) . For the sin to be removed(or cleanse) from the temple, it requires the work of the second “live” goat & dove as shown in Lev 16 & 14.

We also see that Paul, James, Peter, Jude, John, etc… all had this understanding and referred to themselves as “servant” [doulos, slave] to the Lord. The Greek word “doulos” means “slave” and a slave is a worker that obeys the command of their Master-Redeemer.

6. The debt is to be paid until paid in full or until the Jubilee time come : The debt to be paid to either Redeemer #1 or #2 is always calculated according to the remaining years left until the Jubilee. Once the Jubilee comes, only then that all debts are cancelled, whether the debt is paid in full or not. (see Lev 25:25-28; 47-54).

Originally Posted By: Elle
This is going off-topic, however redemption is related to this subject. …
My point is really brief and I would link this to the subject of Investigative Judgment.

Any judgments whether investigative or not, has to be viewed according to the Biblical definition of the judgment of sin given in point #2 above where Ex 22:3 and Lev 5:16 saying that a restitution for sin has to be paid. Further details how the debt can be paid with or without a Redeemer is given in the law of Jubilee.

So to me, SDAs [investigative] Judgment description & timing is absolutely not in harmony with the Lord’s judgment defined in the law.

SDAs investigative judgment teaching fails :

#1 : By not having the same judgment definition "restitution must be paid" described in Ex 22:3, Lev 5:16 and elsewhere.

#2 : by not having the biblical definition of the Redeemer. That the responsibility to pay our debt and the world's debt rest 100% on the redeemer and not on us(or the world). If at the end of time, if anyone of us or in the world fails to deliver the fruits of the Kingdom, then this failure is not on our head but it is on our Redeemer's head.

#3 : our timing of the scope of the judgment for sin is not in line with what is define in the law of Jubilee.

#4 : Also SDAs IJ doctrine does not account the time limit to pay for our debt that is set in the law of Jubilee -- when all debt are cancelled at the Jubilee whether or not you have paid your debt in full. All debt are cancel and all is set free at the Jubilee.

In my view, we need to get first in sync with the Lord's definition of words and with His laws established to deal with sin, before tackling more complicated truths like understanding Daniel's prophecies.


I understand the wages of sin is death. I think I understand your point about debt. There is a debt to pay and Jesus pays that debt for us. Then Jesus coordinates the payment of the debt and His Second Coming, to demonstrate His people don't have any debt to worry about and have every right to the tree of life.

Have I missed anything?
Top
#183500 - 04/29/17 12:47 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi]
dedication Online   content

Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4296
Loc: Canada
Yes, Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe,
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
All who come to Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin in this probationary time (our earthly lives) will be saved.

But that's not really what Elle is saying.
She believes that all people will be saved.
Her last point #2 says it is the responsibility of the redeemer to make sure every last person is saved, if anyone is lost it is not their failure but it is the redeemer's failure.

Thus, in her thinking the Adventist understanding of the investigative judgment just does not fit in, because the pre-advent investigative judgment makes a distinction between those who have responded to Christ's call and are saved by the blood of the Lamb, and those who only made a profession but clung to sin and are not saved. Christ's second coming does not bring in a new era in which people are re-educated to "bring forth the fruits of the kingdom". At Christ's second coming it is too late to change.
Top
#183506 - 04/29/17 11:06 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: dedication]
Alchemy Online   content
SDA
Active Member 2017

Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 2217
Loc: Asia
Originally Posted By: dedication
Yes, Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe,
Sin had left a crimson stain,
He washed it white as snow.
All who come to Christ for pardon and cleansing from sin in this probationary time (our earthly lives) will be saved.

But that's not really what Elle is saying.
She believes that all people will be saved.
Her last point #2 says it is the responsibility of the redeemer to make sure every last person is saved, if anyone is lost it is not their failure but it is the redeemer's failure.

Thus, in her thinking the Adventist understanding of the investigative judgment just does not fit in, because the pre-advent investigative judgment makes a distinction between those who have responded to Christ's call and are saved by the blood of the Lamb, and those who only made a profession but clung to sin and are not saved. Christ's second coming does not bring in a new era in which people are re-educated to "bring forth the fruits of the kingdom". At Christ's second coming it is too late to change.


Amen.

I hope everyone here, including Elle, comes to understand that the Godhead has done everything divinely possible to save every human being ever to live.

But, God will never compromise His law or force anyone. People can be lost, even professed Christians.
Top
#183511 - 04/29/17 10:31 PM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Alchemy]
dedication Online   content

Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4296
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy



I hope everyone here, including Elle, comes to understand that the Godhead has done everything divinely possible to save every human being ever to live.

But, God will never compromise His law or force anyone. People can be lost, even professed Christians.



True!
There is no way we can pay for even the tiniest part of our salvation. but we do have the freedom to chose or reject the salvation bought for us.

Those restitution laws are concerning how we are to deal with our fellow man. If someone has taken something from someone else, they are to restore it. If someone causes the destruction of someone else's property, they need to make amends. If we owe someone money, we should repay it. That is NOT paying for our salvation, it is learning to live a decent life in society.

The redemption laws of ancient Israel had two purposes:
1. in a society where the evils of slavery and debt and other misfortunes were rampant, God put in place laws to make life more bearable for them.
2. The laws of the "redeemer" were to point people to the Great Redeemer, Who would save them from sin.

To try and transcribe laws made to meet the evils of their society, point by point into how Christ redeems His people, is just not reasonable or correct. However,the main theme that a near kinsman redeems (pays the debt so they can be free) points to Christ as our "near kinsman" who pays the debt so we can be free.


Quote:
"There was no power in the law to pardon its transgressor. Jesus alone could pay the sinner's debt.{1SM 229.2}

Let the subject be made distinct and plain that it is not
possible to effect anything in our standing before God or in the gift of God to us through creature merit. Should faith and works purchase the gift of salvation for anyone, then the Creator is under obligation to the creature. Here is an opportunity for falsehood to be accepted as truth. If any man can merit salvation by anything he may do, then he is in the same position as the Catholic to do penance for his sins. Salvation, then, is partly of debt, that may be earned as wages. If man cannot, by any of his good works, merit salvation, then it must be wholly of grace, received by man as a sinner because he receives and believes in Jesus. It is wholly a free gift. Justification by faith is placed beyond controversy. And all this controversy is ended, as soon as the matter is settled that the merits of fallen man in his good works can never procure eternal life for him. {FW 19.3}

He was to come as one of the human family, and to stand as a man before heaven and earth. He had come to take our place, to pledge Himself in our behalf, to pay the debt that sinners owed. He was to live a pure life on the earth, and show that Satan had told a falsehood when he claimed that the human family belonged to him forever, and that God could not take the race out of his hands. {CTr 222.2}

"The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercession of God's Son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery. {EW 127.1}
Top
#183512 - 04/29/17 10:51 PM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: dedication]
dedication Online   content

Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 04/25/04
Posts: 4296
Loc: Canada
And as we understand that how does it affect our understanding of the investigative judgment?

In order to pass the scrutiny of that judgment we must be perfect! Even one sin would condemn us to death, and we've all committed a multitude of sins.
But we have the promise:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Standing before the broken law of God, the sinner cannot cleanse himself; but, believing in Christ, he is the object of His infinite love and clothed in His spotless righteousness.
Who can comprehend the nature of that righteousness
which makes the believing sinner whole, presenting him to God without spot or wrinkle or any such thing? We have the pledged word of God that Christ is made unto us righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.
Top
#184188 - 06/20/17 11:12 AM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Nadi]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2274
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Nadi,

I went back and looked at that thread. Sorry, I wasn't trying to derail it for you. I had only meant what I said as an aside to the discussion.

I think your view vs the SDA view boils down to a basic difference in how the plan of salvation is viewed. In the historic SDA view God is as much on trial before the universe as we are on trial before God. Why? Because God's character was attacked by the devil and 1/3 of the angels and the human race accepted the lie about who God really is and what is He really like.

The devil is the universe's, not just this world's, greatest scam artist. His powers of deceit are immense and as God wants to wipe out sin completely, and sin is simply not trusting God, then God has to have a way of convincing everyone that He is just. Revelation 14:7 occurs before the 2nd coming and yet it says that the "hour of His judgment is come". Hour of whose judgment? God's. The "hour" of our judgment--our reading of the books and investigating the lives of those who made it to heaven and those who didn't comes after the 2nd coming. We simply verify through the meticulous record keeping of God that God has always been just, fair, and righteous.

The entire plan of salvation is the story of the war--the great controversy--between God and the devil. If someone rejects that paradigm then they will never accept the SDA point of view. They cannot because it cuts the foundation of their beliefs off at the knees. Only if a person is willing to look at the entire Bible through this paradigm, and the Bible supports this paradigm from Genesis to Revelation, can SDA theology be really understood and accepted.

This is why SDA theology is so distinctive. No other church accepts the paradigm of the great controversy between good and evil. I don't know why as the evidence for this paradigm surrounds us daily. There is always a struggle between good and evil and it is constant and ongoing. To me it is the greatest evidence that the SDA theology on this is correct. And, it is also the only paradigm that, to me, makes sense out of our completely out of control and insane world.


Originally Posted By: Gary K
In the historic SDA view God is as much on trial before the universe as we are on trial before God.

Please provide Biblical support that God is on trial.

Originally Posted By: Gary K
the great controversy between good and evil

Please provide Biblical support for that.

Here's a short respond of what I see what scripture is saying about the question of evil.

-According to Is 45:7 God says He created evil

-in Lev 26 we have very explicit repeated language that The Lord is the one that brings unto us "evil" in the form of all those calamities listed in that chapter.

-Any immature children being corrected perceived their parent's judgment as "evil" or unfair. It's only when we grow that our childhood perception of our parents comes to change.

-Us as Christians we often mistakenly perceived God's judgments and disciplines as coming from the devil. However, it is the Lord that brings all these judgments and events in our lives. Not the devil.(Heb 12:1-17)

-Also the Lord's judgments and disciplines are always correctional in the aim to restore the individual and are never punitive nor have a "forever" destruction end. (Is 26:9,10)

-The scripture doesn't say it's Satan or the devil that brings evils. God may use Satan to bring about some "evil" --calamities to bring us to a higher spiritual plane like we see in the story of Job who did nothing wrong. Or when the Lord used King Nebuchadnezzar and called him "my servant" to bring on to us some form of judgment for things we did do wrong. But in both of these situation, it is the Lord that initiated these decision and judgments...not Satan.

We read in Job 42:11 "Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold."

-Satan is an accuser of the brethren. Yes. That's his job. And he's a deceiver that will deceive us into doing lawlessness. But it is the Lord that brings on all judgment on His own timing when we (as individuals or as a nation) break the law. Not Satan. And it's only when God brings on judgment that we experience this evilness in our life.


Edited by Elle (06/20/17 12:44 PM)
Edit Reason: to add clarity
_________________________
Blessings
Top
#184190 - 06/20/17 12:35 PM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Elle]
Gary K Offline
Full Member
Registered: 02/09/02
Posts: 397
Loc: Colville, Wa
Elle,

Before we get into scripture I have a few questions for you.

1. Do you see a struggle between good and evil down throughout human history?

2. Do you see that struggle in your own life and the lives of others?

3. Is there clear misconception of who God is in the world?

4. In the Garden of Eden when the devil tempted Adam and Eve what was the temptation based on? What idea?
Top
#184192 - 06/20/17 01:00 PM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Gary K]
Nadi Offline
Non-SDA
Active Member 2016
Full Member
Registered: 07/16/16
Posts: 131
Loc: Canada
Perhaps start another thread...
Top
#184193 - 06/20/17 01:03 PM Re: Is the Investigative Judgement Biblical? [Re: Gary K]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2274
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Elle,

Before we get into scripture I have a few questions for you.

1. Do you see a struggle between good and evil down throughout human history?

2. Do you see that struggle in your own life and the lives of others?

3. Is there clear misconception of who God is in the world?

4. In the Garden of Eden when the devil tempted Adam and Eve what was the temptation based on? What idea?


You probably didn't see the long added segment to my question #2 in my post above of what I see scripture saying about the question of evil. I added that section so to be more efficient and expressed briefly what I see scripture saying about the question of evil. What I listed is only a partial list.

Maybe that added section, will answer your questions of my view by which I limit it to what scriptures says. I do not rely on my opinion of what I perceive what is or what is not.

Let's stick to what scripture says and not confuse the issue with our limited opinions or others opinions & interpretations. Our perception of what we think what is and what is not is most likely delusional. Only scriptures can define what is and what is not correctly. We are to submit our perception to the expressed word of God and not vice versa. I rather rely on what scriptures says if you don't mind.

We can come back to your 4 questions after you have provided scriptures to support your two statements and see from there what scriptures really says about the topic. Only then we can have more grounds to answer the 4 questions in a scriptural perspective and not from an uninformed shallow opinion of man.
_________________________
Blessings
Top
Page 5 of 15 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... 14 15 >

Moderator:  asygo 
Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
(Not Refreshing Immediately)
A Woman Now Rides the Beast
by dedication
Yesterday at 10:18 PM
Global Warming Farce
by Alchemy
Yesterday at 02:57 AM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y
11/17/17 07:56 PM
Fourth Quarter 2017 The Book of Romans
by dedication
11/17/17 03:48 AM
A new Global Economic Restructure in 2012
by Elle
11/13/17 06:57 PM
What change took place in Hebrews 7:11-12?
by Alchemy
11/13/17 12:41 PM
Three functions of the Law
by dedication
11/11/17 09:58 PM
Circumcision - The law of Moses
by dedication
11/11/17 09:05 PM
Rejection of the Testimonies Foretold.
by Alchemy
11/11/17 05:57 AM
Fires, fires and more fires
by Alchemy
11/07/17 11:42 PM
Protestants renounce Protestantism
by Alchemy
11/07/17 09:23 AM
Foods Inflamation & Cancer
by kland
11/06/17 05:03 PM
The Words that sparked the Reformation
by dedication
10/28/17 10:04 PM
Seven Trumpets & 3rd Angel's Message
by dedication
10/25/17 02:20 AM
Extreme Weather: Typhoons/Hurricanes/
Cyclones, and Tornadoes

by Alchemy
10/23/17 11:45 AM
Was Bible possesion banned by the Roman Catholic Church
by Alchemy
10/23/17 11:41 AM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
Ted Wilson's Concerns
by APL
Today at 02:24 AM
The Godhead. I thought I believed this?
by APL
Today at 02:07 AM
Is the Coming of the Bridegroom in the Ten Virgins Parable actually Satan?!?
by Alchemy
Yesterday at 12:27 AM
Tim Roosenberg & Daniel 11 & 12
by Alchemy
11/15/17 04:56 AM
What priesthood exists today?
by Alchemy
11/15/17 04:49 AM
Freedom Of Speech Finished In EU
by Alchemy
11/11/17 12:55 AM
Why Adam?
by APL
11/10/17 05:14 PM
2017 Fall Annual Council
by Alchemy
11/07/17 09:07 AM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter

Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com
WELCOME!
� 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.


"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!

Website Ranking