Josh,

There are, at this point, two questions I am asking, or two areas of clarification:

1. That Scripture speaks of and describes TWO judgements.

and

2. That the judgement you describe [the IJ] began in 1844. (See post #182805)

I read your post several times in an attempt to get a good sense of what you are proposing. The majority of it did not address the questions.

I will, however, comment on the last part of your post.





As an aside, and not related to the topic of this thread, please explain the following idea, with reference to Acts 4:12.

...and those gentiles who never heard of the God of Abraham but did hear their conscience and were a law unto themselves.

Continued from previous page

The second coming or advent of our Lord is an "executionary" judgment.
That is --
once the first three angels of Revelation 14 have given their warning message which announces the preadvent judgment, then we read --
Rev. 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

The good and the bad dwell together until that harvest,
Matt. 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Matt. 13:39 The enemy that sowed them (sowed the bad seed of wickedness) is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Matt. 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who actually constitutes the tares that will perish at the second coming, or Advent of Christ, and who constitutes the wheat, is already determined before Christ comes.
Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The angels don't have to ask who is in what group, they already know for they were present in that court scene pictured in Daniel 7.

God INVESTIGATES before executing judgment.

Texts to show that God investigates before executing judgment:

The judgment of the Flood in Noah's day:


Gen. 6:5 "Then God saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth."

God is beginning His investigation.

Gen. 6:11 God looked upon the earth and indeed it was corrupt.

But God investigates even closer:

Gen 6:5 Every intent and thought was evil continually"
Gen.6:9 But Noah was a just man, perfect in generation. Noah walked with God.

Why did Noah Find grace in the eyes of God (vs 8) at this point? Didn't God already know Noah was walking with Him? Of course God knew, but He wanted all the succeeding generations to know why he destroyed the others and made an exception for Noah.

The Judgment on Ancient Babylon

In Daniel chapter five, King Belshazzar is throwing a big party. He's praising his idols and tops it all off by bringing in the temple dishes and desecrates them. God is about to execute judgment. But notice all that God has done first.

Daniel 5:27
"You were weighed in the balances and found wanting."

In other words— your case was investigated and you were found guilty. "You knew all that God had done for Nebuchadnezzar but you refused to humble your heart.

Notice the "weighing" is in the past tense. It was already done prior to the handwriting on the wall.
It was already done.
Next would come the execution of that judgment.

Proverbs 16:2
"The ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weighs the spirits"

He investigates what is motivating us.

There's the story of Sodom

The Lord said, "I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it. . ." Gen. 18:21

Before Sodom was destroyed, God investigated.
Angels gathered out a very small group before it happened.


Very soon this earth will face destruction.
The investigation is still in process, not because it "takes the heavenly court so long" but because there are still people "in the valley of decision",
as Rev. 7 reveals
"7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Investigative Judgment
KEY TEXTS
Dan. 7:9-10,
7:13-14,22,26 Rev. 3:5
Takes place in heaven.

Present at this court are the hosts of angels, the Ancient of Days (God the Father) and the Son of Man (Christ)
Christ receives the rights to the dominion and kingdom of earth for mankind.
The Lamb’s Book of Life is updated to include all overcomers who will inherit the restored kingdom.






Decisions of Investigative Judgment
Executed at 2nd coming
KEY TEXTS
Rev. 14:16
Matt. 13:30,39 Matt. 24:31 1 Thess. 4:16,17
John 15:1-3
Takes place on earth
Christ comes with clouds and all His angels to “reap” the earth.
The righteous dead are raised, but the rest of the dead are not raised. (Rev. 20:5)
The angels are the reapers, gather tares for burning, gather elect who meet Christ in the air and return with Him to heaven.




1000 years
saints Investigating
Records
KEY TEXTS
Rev. 20:4 1 Cor. 6:2-3
Saints in heaven
They are invited to investigate the records of the lost, before those lost ones will face the final judgment of condemnation.





Final Judgment
Everyone appears before Christ’s judgment throne
KEY TEXTS
Rev. 20:11-13 Rev. 20:3,5,7
Takes place after the 1000 years here on earth.
Present will be everyone who has ever lived, as the dead are raised to life again.
The saved, those whose names are in the Lamb’s book of life, will be inside the city of God, while the lost will be outside.
Rev. 22:14-15

The names of the lost are not found written in the Lamb’s book of life.





Final Judgment
Executed
KEY TEXTS
Rev. 20:14-15 Malachi 4:1
2 Peter 3:10-12
Takes place on earth.
A great, intense fire will completely burn all traces of sin, including those whose names were not in the book of Life.
God creates the earth anew. All sin with its pain, misery and death are no more.
This kingdom will last forever!

That the judgment [the IJ] began in 1844.
See post On previous page
for introduction to this question.

Daniel 8
Daniel chapter eight takes us through history once again -- there's the ram of Persia, which grew great, (vs.4) the goat of Grecia, which grew very great,(vs.8) but it breaks into four divisions, the next power that emerges is a great horn out of one of the winds (directions) of the earth that grows EXCEEDINGLY great.(vs9) This is NOT Epiphanies, who most certainly did not grow exceedingly great outdoing both Persia and Grecia. This horn is Rome, both pagan and papal. The importance of an exceedingly great power cannot be overestimated -- it was/is indeed exceedingly great covering thousands of years. But what is most important about this horn is how it has affected the world history concerning salvation. We are living not only with the effects of that power, but we are living with that power today!

The angel tells Daniel "O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision." Dan. 8:17

In other words -- this horn power concerns us in our day, living at the time of the end.


The key text marking a specific time is 8:14.

In that verse, we have the cleansing of the sanctuary, a reference to the "day of atonement" in Israel's prophetic yearly feasts.

The question is asked "How long the vision?" vs 13

When someone asks "How long" one expects an answer concerning time.
We need to clarify something at this point.
Check out the word "sacrifice" in Daniel 8.
It is always italicized -- which indicates it is always added by the translators and is NOT in the original. Daniel is NOT talking about sacrifices here, he is talking about evening and morning DAYS.

The Bible tells us that evening/mornings are DAYS. Therefore the translation:
8.14
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. This is in agreement with Biblical usage of the term. EVENING/MORNING = 1 day.

The evening and the morning were the first day
The evening and the morning were the second day
The evening and the morning were the third day
ETC. (Gen. 1)

You will notice that when the Bible uses evening/morning it is speaking of days.
When the bible speaks of the morning and evening sacrifices it always uses the REVERSE order. "Morning" first, then "evening". (See: 2 Kings 16:15; 1 Chron. 16:40; 2Chro. 2:4; 13:11; 31:3)

Also please note that the verses speaking of the PRIEST'S CONTINUAL (or daily tamid) service in the sanctuary itself, IN THE HOLY PLACE, it uses the term in the same order as Daniel-- evening and morning!


Leveticus 24:3 "In the tabernacle of the congregation, shall Aaron order it from the evening unto the morning before the LORD continually:"

Ex. 27.21 In the tabernacle of the congregation without the veil, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD:

If Daniel had meant "sacrifices" in chapter eight, he would have said "sacrifices" as he did in Daniel 9:27. However, the word is NOT mentioned AT ALL by Daniel, in Daniel 8. It was added by translators. When the little horn magnifies himself to the Prince of Heaven and seeks to cast to the earth the heavenly sanctuary truth, Christ has already completed the GREAT SACRIFICE at the cross and is in heaven as our HIGH PRIEST in "continual" "tamid" ministry. The "once and for all" sacrifice has taken place, there are no more sacrifices.



Now some argue and ask, why didn't Daniel simply say "days" as he did in Daniel 12?

That's because Daniel was speaking about the "DAILY" ministry in the holy place. (not in the courtyard) He used the same terminology as Lev. 24:3.

You see Daniel chapters 9,8,7, give a picture of CHRIST'S ministry for our salvation.

•Daniel 9 focuses on the "outer court" (this earth) and points to the sacrifices and "outer court" activities of the sanctuary-- these culminate in Christ's sacrifice when He came to earth, and when he caused those sacrifices to cease.

•Daniel 8 focuses on the daily ministry in the holy place, which was transfered to the heavenly sanctuary when Christ ascended into heaven and became the High Priest. The knowledge of this ministry was "cast to the ground" by the horn power. Daniel 8 identifies the date when the heavenly "holy place" minister moves to the Most Holy.

•Daniel 7 gives us details concerning what takes place in the Most Holy judgment phase, when the books are opened and the court is seated..


So how to we arrive at that date -- 1844


Well the vision of Daniel eight began with Persia, includes Grecia and Rome and takes us to the cleansing of the sanctuary.
So the 2300 days are also symbolic years. The question -- how long the vision till the judgment typified by the day of Atonement in Israel's prophetic calendar would begin?
Is answered by saying it began 2300 years after a starting point in the history of the Persian Empire (the Media/Persian Empire that began in 550 BC).

Daniel 9 details the point in Persian history is linked to a certain decree being issued for the restoration of Jerusalem).
Thus the 2300 years takes us to a point in the 1800's.



Dan. 9.24
Seventy weeks are determined (chathak) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks, which stretch from Jerusalem’s restoration to Messiah the Prince, (9:25) are 490 day/years "determined for your people," the Jewish nation.
The word for “determined” is "chathak" which means to cut off, to sever from, to amputate.
Cut off from what?
The angel says “understand the vision”.
What vision? No vision is given in Daniel 9, just an explanation.
We know from Daniel’s account in chapter 8 that he did not fully understand the vision of chapter 8. In chapter nine Daniel is studying and praying. He has read what Jeremiah says about Israel’s captivity lasting 70 years. He has obviously grasped the concept that the vision of Daniel 8 covers a very long period--to the time of the end-- and he is very concerned. He is seeking to reconcile the two, trying to fit this all together with his understanding of the restoration of Jerusalem and the temple, both of which lay in total ruins, having been destroyed by Babylonian armies. This is what Daniel was most concerned about, how does Israel and Jerusalem fit in with this vision.

Gabriel now explains that Jerusalem will be rebuilt, he only explains the portion involving the Jews--which is 490 day/years cut off from the time period given in the previous vision-- the 2300 day/years. Israel was being given a second chance after the Babylonian exile! They were being gathered back into their land to prepare themselves for the coming Messiah! But after the 490 years, desolation far worse than anything Epiphanies wrought befalls Jerusalem and the temple, for it would be destroyed and made desolate. (9:26,27).

Daniel 8 takes us beyond the earthly sanctuary to the heavenly sanctuary, where the Prince of Heavenly Host is-- His sanctuary truth may be trampled by false religious systems but it can NEVER be destroyed, it will triumph in the end.


So when did the vision begin?
When was a decree for Jerusalem's rebuilding issued? The first group of Jews returned to Jerusalem in 536 B.C,

But basically from 536-457 B.C. the Israelites were a struggling group of people with no real government, city or well defined country. They built themselves houses, and managed to build a temple.

Finally Ezra received his decree from Artaxerxes in 457 BC. (In the seventh year of Artaxerxes) The decree gives further help in establishing the temple, but it also gives Israel the right to self government. This decree is recorded in the book of Ezra and marks the beginning of Judea as a restored country in 457 B.C.

457 BC plus 2300 years takes us to 1843.
Add the missing year 9 which isn't counted in the dating scheme and you come to 1844.

Thank you for your extensive posts. I will read them closely and see if I can follow your logic.

I will just make two comments now.

1. I could be wrong, but the above comment seems to indicate that you don't think I read the chapter. This would be an incorrect assumption; I have read it closely several times. Which leads to the second comment:

2. You cannot expect that I will read a chapter or passage of Scripture, (or anything) and come to the same conclusions you have.

No, but to understand what I was saying about the texts I used from the chapter, it helps to read the whole chapter.

dedication, this post has seriously screwed up my browser. It causes the screen to be very narrow and long; I have to scroll back and forth. Can you re-post it in another format?

Blessings Nadi,

Yes, there is an Investigative Judgment in the Heavenly Sanctuary that is going on right now. As far as an exact progression of thought, that depends somewhat on the individual.

I prefer to start from Hebrews chapter 9. I would start by pointing out that Paul, whom I believe wrote the Book of Hebrews in the Bible, starts the chapter by establishing the worldly sanctuary as our starting place. That pattern of the worldly sanctuary is to be followed in our understanding of the Heavenly Sanctuary to this day.

I would also turn your attention to Hebrews 9:12, which can't read as Dr. Walter Martin would have us read it because of Hebrews 9:3.

Sorry I took so long to reply. I'm referring to Romans 2:14.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

There can be no compromise on the fact that salvation is only through Jesus, but the above verses indicate to me that the Holy Spirit has worked upon all people throughout the ages, so I would think that there is hope for those who did not hear the gospel but conscientiously abhorred what they knew to be evil and determined to do what was right. We are each accountable for the light that has been given to us. This seems to be in line with James 4:17, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

However, there is very little written about this in the Bible, so it's hard to thoroughly elaborate on the idea without risking small initial assumptions that result in significant errors in conclusion. What we can be sure of is that God judges uprightly, has never erred, and that whatever the verdict is in each individual case it will be exactly as it should be.



Under the section that I titled "An intermission in judgment", for lack of a better term, I was describing Revelation 20's depiction of punishment for the wicked after the thousand years. Because the text includes a depiction of judgment during the thousand years, and given that Paul alludes to us judging the world and angels at some point in time, it seems logical that there must at least be some form of us reviewing the books during that time. We can further conclude that for us to even be in Heaven to begin with we must have already been judged righteous (because Jesus is righteous), and therefore those that name the name of Christ must have already been judged prior to the beginning of the thousand years. This is the investigative judgment.


I didn't cover the question of judgment beginning in 1844 because Dedication seems to have that covered.

So in my reading of Daniel 7:

Daniel sees the 4 beasts, followed by the throne scene. This is obviously a judgement, based on the description.

This follows the "terrible beast" with the 10 horns, based on the seemingly chronological organization of the passage.

At this judgement, the "Son of Man" (Jesus) comes with the "clouds of Heaven". This is the second coming. I base this statement on Matthew 24:30, Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, and other passages describing Jesus' second coming.

The purpose of this judgement is to take away the power of the 4th beast and give the kingdom to the saints, led by the son of man (Jesus, see above). Based on Daniel 7:18, 22, 26, 27.

Notice that every statement above is based on another passage of Scripture. Yes, it is also my opinion, but my opinion is based on a specific Biblical passage. This leads to my conclusion:

1. This is clearly the judgement of God at the end of time.
2. There is no mention of an investigation, or of moving from one compartment to another, or starting a 2nd phase of ministry.
3. Therefore, Daniel 7 cannot be used to support an "investigative" judgement, or a start date of 1844.

Daniel 7:28 "This is the end of the matter."

PS: dedication.
I am still reading through your extensive posts.