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Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: Alchemy] #183384
04/21/17 06:04 AM
04/21/17 06:04 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
We seem to give such consideration to the Papacy. I never trust what they say anymore. I don't trust their words , even though they sound good and right, to have the correct meaning in their hearts. The Papacy that is.
Thank you. I understand that you are portraying a distrust of what the Pope/Papacy says to the general public. In some ways, this is understandable, but I would suggest similar things are also experienced with leaders of other churches as well. But that aside, I did like what the current Pope said in the quote I provided for the OP. Not everything he/they say or do is wrong. I feel that Francis made some very good points that we could build on while talking to Catholics, or any other denominations or individuals who follow the Catholic Church in some way. smile

Quote:
“Jesus has risen from the dead,” Francis said. “And this is not a fantasy. It’s not a celebration with many flowers [pointing at the arrangements surrounding him]. This is beautiful, but [the resurrection] is more.”

“It is the mystery of the thrown-away stone, that ends up being the cornerstone of our existence. Christ has risen from the dead. In this throwaway culture, where that which is not useful takes the path of the use-and-throw, where that which is not useful is discarded, that stone that was discarded is the fountain of life,”

Last edited by The Wanderer; 04/21/17 06:06 AM. Reason: added quote for clarification

"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: The Wanderer] #183395
04/21/17 03:14 PM
04/21/17 03:14 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,424
Midland
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: APL
If one's thrust is to promote a false Sabbath (7th-day), then lets push Easter Sunday, and ignore the whole meaning of the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread!
I don't think that the typical "Easter Sunday" has any functions that would promote a false Sabbath. That does not seem to fit with my OP either. But if you have some clear documentation about this, it would be worth looking at. How does "Easter Sunday" promote a "false Sabbath?" smile
Read the Great Controversy regarding the history of how the false Sabbath came about. It has everything to do with Easter Sunday. It's whole premise.

Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: kland] #183409
04/22/17 06:40 AM
04/22/17 06:40 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: kland
How does "Easter Sunday" promote a "false Sabbath?" smile

Read the Great Controversy regarding the history of how the false Sabbath came about. It has everything to do with Easter Sunday. It's whole premise.
I was talking about the idea of one day out of the year: "EASTER SUNDAY," not all of the weekly Sundays, which I believe is what you & the GC is referring to. At any rate, this is a very minor point to what I had started in the OP Happy Sabbath to you! smile


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: The Wanderer] #183416
04/23/17 01:09 AM
04/23/17 01:09 AM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,419
Canada
Kland has a very valid point.

Sunday worship coming into the early church has a lot to do with the introduction of the Friday to Sunday yearly festival replacing the Biblical dates for the Passover.


We read in the ancient writings (Especially the historical accounts written by Eusebius in which he quotes extensively from both sides of the controversy) how Christians in the east honored Christ's death on Nisan 14th, while Christians in the west were beginning to celebrate it always on a Friday to Sunday.

As we read in "Sabbath to Sunday" by Andrews and Conradi
" As type met antitype, early Christianity, composed at first chiefly of Israelites, would voluntarily continue these festival, but in commemoration of facts accomplished, as the death of the Lord, his resurrection, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. They would therein naturally follow the Jewish method of computation. The Passover lamb was to be eaten on the fourteenth of Nisan, without reference to the day of the week on which it fell; then followed the seven days of unleavened bread.

"A number of the churches in the East, appealing to apostolic example, fasted until the close of the fourteenth, and celebrated the Passover at the beginning of the fifteenth, by having the communion and the love feast; but in some parts of the West, especially in the Roman Church, celebrated the death of Jesus on a Friday, and his resurrection always on a Sunday after the March full moon, fasting till Sunday and celebrating the communion on that day. Thus it happened that one part of Christianity was fasting and mourning over the death of Christ, while the other part was already rejoicing over his accomplished resurrection.
This difference had already been discussed when the martyr bishop Polycarp of Smyrna visited Ancietus, bishop of Rome, around 133 A.D. But although they could not agree, they parted in peace, as far as Eusebiuss’ statement goes.

"But some forty years later the Roman bishop Victor, thinking that he, being bishop of the capital of the Roman empire, had therefore the right to dictate to the other bishops, in an imperious tone required the churches in the East to abandon their practise, and follow the example of Rome. An Eastern synod considered his letter, and Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, in his answer to Victor, appealing to the example of Philip, of John, of Polycarp, and of other ancient bishops, winds up: “All these observed the fourteenth day of the Passover according to the gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith”. 40

Victor turned a deaf ear to this remonstrance,-- though it surely had apostolic tradition in its favor, if there be such a thing, -- branded the Eastern churches as heretical, and threatened to excommunicate them. Thus the first instance on record in which the bishop of Rome attempted to be the Pope over all the churches, was by an edict in behalf of Sunday. Bower calls this “the first essay of papal usurpation;” 41 And Dowling, “the earliest instance of papal assumption.”42

Victor did not succeed in enforcing Sunday Easter as numerous bishops opposed him.

"The question relating to the observance of Easter [Passover], which was agitated in the time of Anicetus and Polycarp, and afterwards in that of Victor, was still undecided (in the days of Constantine). It was one of the principal reasons for convoking the council of Nicea, being the most important subject to be considered after the Arian controversy. It appears that the churches of Syria and Mesopotamia continued to follow the custom of the Jews, and celebrated Easter on the fourteenth day of the moon, whether falling on Sunday or not. A Historical View of the Council of Nice, p. 22, translated by Isaac Boyle, D.D. New York: Thomas N. Staintford, 637 Broadway, 1856.

The result of that council was an edict that everyone should honor the Friday to Sunday celebration--
The main reason? To avoid any connection with Jewish practices -- as was stated by the letter sent out.

"It appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of
this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the
Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous
sin,"

"The edict was declared far and wide that Christ's death and resurrection was to be consistently and unitedly celebrated upon the first Sunday after the full moon that follows the vernal equinox to place it in a general proximity to the Jewish Passover and yet remain separate.

CONNECTION WITH THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REJECTION

That connection is based on the fact that Sunday keeping is in reality defended as a weekly celebration in honor of Christ's resurrection. The abandoning of the Sabbath and the adoption of the commemoration of the resurrection on Sunday was based on the same arguments, both as a weekly and a yearly
feast.

1. Distance themselves from the Jews
2. Fasting -- not only on the Friday/Saturday, before easter Sunday, but on every 7th day Sabbath to "mourn" Christ's death, and then rejoice every Sunday in honor of the resurrection.
3. Sunday keeping is regarded as the weekly "resurrection day".

The fast tended to strike a deathblow to the Sabbath by placing it in utter disrespect as a day of sadness and gloom rather than of Christian joy.

Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: dedication] #183420
04/23/17 05:45 AM
04/23/17 05:45 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: dedication
Kland has a very valid point.

It takes some very loose connections and very stretched points to connect Easter to the false sabbath; and at any rate, nothing like this was or is the point of the OP I was hoping for something more substantial as in discussion about the cross, the resurrection, and how these grand themes should play out in our daily lives, and personal practices. I guess this is likely a good place to state that for most of us, these themes do not have a major impact in our daily life. The closest most people get is the Easter Bunny, chocolate eggs, or conspiracy themes involving the papacy.

When I read that text from Philippians in that old man's Bible, it meant something much deeper to me than what is being presented. To "know the power of His resurrection" and "the fellowship of His sufferings," should be the answer to all "Easter Questions." smile


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: dedication] #183422
04/23/17 08:50 AM
04/23/17 08:50 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: dedication
Kland has a very valid point.

Sunday worship coming into the early church has a lot to do with the introduction of the Friday to Sunday yearly festival replacing the Biblical dates for the Passover.


We read in the ancient writings (Especially the historical accounts written by Eusebius in which he quotes extensively from both sides of the controversy) how Christians in the east honored Christ's death on Nisan 14th, while Christians in the west were beginning to celebrate it always on a Friday to Sunday.

As we read in "Sabbath to Sunday" by Andrews and Conradi
" As type met antitype, early Christianity, composed at first chiefly of Israelites, would voluntarily continue these festival, but in commemoration of facts accomplished, as the death of the Lord, his resurrection, and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. They would therein naturally follow the Jewish method of computation. The Passover lamb was to be eaten on the fourteenth of Nisan, without reference to the day of the week on which it fell; then followed the seven days of unleavened bread.

"A number of the churches in the East, appealing to apostolic example, fasted until the close of the fourteenth, and celebrated the Passover at the beginning of the fifteenth, by having the communion and the love feast; but in some parts of the West, especially in the Roman Church, celebrated the death of Jesus on a Friday, and his resurrection always on a Sunday after the March full moon, fasting till Sunday and celebrating the communion on that day. Thus it happened that one part of Christianity was fasting and mourning over the death of Christ, while the other part was already rejoicing over his accomplished resurrection.
This difference had already been discussed when the martyr bishop Polycarp of Smyrna visited Ancietus, bishop of Rome, around 133 A.D. But although they could not agree, they parted in peace, as far as Eusebiuss’ statement goes.

"But some forty years later the Roman bishop Victor, thinking that he, being bishop of the capital of the Roman empire, had therefore the right to dictate to the other bishops, in an imperious tone required the churches in the East to abandon their practise, and follow the example of Rome. An Eastern synod considered his letter, and Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, in his answer to Victor, appealing to the example of Philip, of John, of Polycarp, and of other ancient bishops, winds up: “All these observed the fourteenth day of the Passover according to the gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith”. 40

Victor turned a deaf ear to this remonstrance,-- though it surely had apostolic tradition in its favor, if there be such a thing, -- branded the Eastern churches as heretical, and threatened to excommunicate them. Thus the first instance on record in which the bishop of Rome attempted to be the Pope over all the churches, was by an edict in behalf of Sunday. Bower calls this “the first essay of papal usurpation;” 41 And Dowling, “the earliest instance of papal assumption.”42

Victor did not succeed in enforcing Sunday Easter as numerous bishops opposed him.

"The question relating to the observance of Easter [Passover], which was agitated in the time of Anicetus and Polycarp, and afterwards in that of Victor, was still undecided (in the days of Constantine). It was one of the principal reasons for convoking the council of Nicea, being the most important subject to be considered after the Arian controversy. It appears that the churches of Syria and Mesopotamia continued to follow the custom of the Jews, and celebrated Easter on the fourteenth day of the moon, whether falling on Sunday or not. A Historical View of the Council of Nice, p. 22, translated by Isaac Boyle, D.D. New York: Thomas N. Staintford, 637 Broadway, 1856.

The result of that council was an edict that everyone should honor the Friday to Sunday celebration--
The main reason? To avoid any connection with Jewish practices -- as was stated by the letter sent out.

"It appeared an unworthy thing that in the celebration of
this most holy feast we should follow the practice of the
Jews, who have impiously defiled their hands with enormous
sin,"

"The edict was declared far and wide that Christ's death and resurrection was to be consistently and unitedly celebrated upon the first Sunday after the full moon that follows the vernal equinox to place it in a general proximity to the Jewish Passover and yet remain separate.

CONNECTION WITH THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH REJECTION

That connection is based on the fact that Sunday keeping is in reality defended as a weekly celebration in honor of Christ's resurrection. The abandoning of the Sabbath and the adoption of the commemoration of the resurrection on Sunday was based on the same arguments, both as a weekly and a yearly
feast.

1. Distance themselves from the Jews
2. Fasting -- not only on the Friday/Saturday, before easter Sunday, but on every 7th day Sabbath to "mourn" Christ's death, and then rejoice every Sunday in honor of the resurrection.
3. Sunday keeping is regarded as the weekly "resurrection day".

The fast tended to strike a deathblow to the Sabbath by placing it in utter disrespect as a day of sadness and gloom rather than of Christian joy.


Excellent and powerful post dedication.

I did not know about Pope Victor in 133 AD.

Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: The Wanderer] #183425
04/23/17 12:01 PM
04/23/17 12:01 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: dedication
Kland has a very valid point.

It takes some very loose connections and very stretched points to connect Easter to the false sabbath; and at any rate, nothing like this was or is the point of the OP I was hoping for something more substantial as in discussion about the cross, the resurrection, and how these grand themes should play out in our daily lives, and personal practices. I guess this is likely a good place to state that for most of us, these themes do not have a major impact in our daily life. The closest most people get is the Easter Bunny, chocolate eggs, or conspiracy themes involving the papacy.

When I read that text from Philippians in that old man's Bible, it meant something much deeper to me than what is being presented. To "know the power of His resurrection" and "the fellowship of His sufferings," should be the answer to all "Easter Questions." smile

I'm glad that your focus is to get down to the real good meat of things. I had worked on a reply to you some days ago, but I lost it all just before posting it. Probably, the Lord wanted me to reflect on it some more.

Interestingly, I had a recent "death" and "resurrection" experience in Jan 2017. It was quite intense and not pleasant at all (well the death part was brutal)... On the surface, I was battling with an advance case of cancer [I refused the standard treatment of chemo or surgery] that wasn't showing any signs of improvements despite all I had changed & done for 8 months. This led me to my "death" & after a "resurrection" type of experience. Only 2 months after that I saw the first tiny signs of cancer regression.

So your Easter question is quite personal & also important for me to be able to reflect on it more deeply and hoping that the Lord will shed light & understanding more on this topic and those scriptures like Gal 6:14.

For the time being, I'm quoting your text with v.13 & 15 to give it some context. Hopefully, this will get the discussion back on track and stimulate some reflection for anyone who wants to ponder on this question.

Does anyone have any reflections what the underlined section in verse 14 means?

AV Ga 6:13 " For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."

BTW excellent text.


Blessings
Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: Elle] #183427
04/24/17 12:59 AM
04/24/17 12:59 AM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: Elle
I'm glad that your focus is to get down to the real good meat of things. I had worked on a reply to you some days ago, but I lost it all just before posting it. Probably, the Lord wanted me to reflect on it some more.

Interestingly, I had a recent "death" and "resurrection" experience in Jan 2017. It was quite intense and not pleasant at all (well the death part was brutal)... On the surface, I was battling with an advance case of cancer [I refused the standard treatment of chemo or surgery] that wasn't showing any signs of improvements despite all I had changed & done for 8 months. This led me to my "death" & after a "resurrection" type of experience. Only 2 months after that I saw the first tiny signs of cancer regression.

So your Easter question is quite personal & also important for me to be able to reflect on it more deeply and hoping that the Lord will shed light & understanding more on this topic and those scriptures like Gal 6:14.

For the time being, I'm quoting your text with v.13 & 15 to give it some context. Hopefully, this will get the discussion back on track and stimulate some reflection for anyone who wants to ponder on this question.

Does anyone have any reflections what the underlined section in verse 14 means?

AV Ga 6:13 " For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14. But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."

BTW excellent text.
I can see why the resurrection theme would be more personal for you. Its amazing how God can work if we let Him, and sometimes, He works anyways, inspite of ourselves and our ailing ways.

To me, just to get the ball rolling a little, the resurrection and the cross, are not two different, or separate things. They are one whole, made up of two or more items, depending upon the detail one would want to get into. But this is the only way I can go through life without worrying about all sorts of bits and pieces, to just look at it all as one whole picture.

The cross is quite the asset on the side of those who hunger for righteousness. It gives God the right to work on our behalf, even if we dont deserve it, because the cross takes care of the undeserving part quite nicely. It gives us an adge, if you will, one that I think Paul was referring to in Gal 6:14. (more later...) smile


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: The Wanderer] #183437
04/24/17 04:13 PM
04/24/17 04:13 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,424
Midland
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: dedication
Kland has a very valid point.

It takes some very loose connections and very stretched points to connect Easter to the false sabbath;
I guess we'll have to disagree. I think Dedication showed very tight and connected points of how Easter was the cause of Sunday worship.

Maybe what you should have asked, is how do people commonly celebrate Easter day related to a false Sabbath (other than people not realizing what they are really celebrating)?

Re: "Easter" Questions [Re: The Wanderer] #183439
04/24/17 04:28 PM
04/24/17 04:28 PM
N
Nadi  Offline
NON-SDA
Active Member 2020
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
It takes some very loose connections and very stretched points to connect Easter to the false sabbath


Unfortunately, Wanderer, that is SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) here on this forum.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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