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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183676
05/16/17 05:35 AM
05/16/17 05:35 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2022
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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I have been trying to leave the diet question alone in this thread, and address only the rejection of the testimonies. That said, you have provided ample fodder in your post--chaff, if you will.
It _IS_ a matter of salvation. On that point, Wanderer, you are simply dead wrong, and I pray souls are not led astray by such inaccuracies...to their eternal ruin. To set the record straight, allow me the privilege of presenting a few statements from the Testimonies themselves. I hope you do not reject these.
I am very well aware of all of the quotes you have supplied, and much more. But we differ in our interpretation of same. I can personally name people who are dead now, victims of a "health message" gone astray. Perhaps, in discounting my expressed opinions, which I have not yet tried to defend, you are largely unaware of what I am talking about? Questions on diet are not to be made a "test" of a person's salvation. Can you atleast provide something from the Bible that would prove me wrong? Again and again I have been instructed that the medical missionary work is to bear the same relation to the work of the third angel's message that the arm and hand bear to the body. Under the direction of the divine Head they are to work unitedly in preparing the way for the coming of Christ. The right arm of the body of truth is to be constantly active, constantly at work, and God will strengthen it. But it is not to be made the body. At the same time the body is not to say to the arm, "I have no need of thee." The body has need of the arm in order to do active, aggressive work. Both have their appointed work, and each will suffer great loss if worked independently of the other.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 288. {ChS 134.4} "Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand." (Phil 4:5, MKJV)
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: The Wanderer]
#183682
05/16/17 08:57 PM
05/16/17 08:57 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I have been trying to leave the diet question alone in this thread, and address only the rejection of the testimonies. That said, you have provided ample fodder in your post--chaff, if you will.
It _IS_ a matter of salvation. On that point, Wanderer, you are simply dead wrong, and I pray souls are not led astray by such inaccuracies...to their eternal ruin. To set the record straight, allow me the privilege of presenting a few statements from the Testimonies themselves. I hope you do not reject these.
I am very well aware of all of the quotes you have supplied, and much more. But we differ in our interpretation of same. I can personally name people who are dead now, victims of a "health message" gone astray. Perhaps, in discounting my expressed opinions, which I have not yet tried to defend, you are largely unaware of what I am talking about? Questions on diet are not to be made a "test" of a person's salvation. Can you atleast provide something from the Bible that would prove me wrong? Again and again I have been instructed that the medical missionary work is to bear the same relation to the work of the third angel's message that the arm and hand bear to the body. Under the direction of the divine Head they are to work unitedly in preparing the way for the coming of Christ. The right arm of the body of truth is to be constantly active, constantly at work, and God will strengthen it. But it is not to be made the body. At the same time the body is not to say to the arm, "I have no need of thee." The body has need of the arm in order to do active, aggressive work. Both have their appointed work, and each will suffer great loss if worked independently of the other.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 288. {ChS 134.4} "Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand." (Phil 4:5, MKJV) Where do you get the idea that diet is not a "test" of salvation? Diet was the start of sin on earth. Jesus' 40-day fast was to conquer on this issue in our behalf. Would He have fasted for nearly six weeks before beginning His public ministry if it were not important? not a "test" of our salvation? Contrary to your apparent belief, diet is a very important factor in terms of our salvation. It is important because it relates to our health, and if our body is diseased or afflicted by an improper diet, our minds cannot comprehend spiritual things. Without understanding spiritual things, we may lose sight of them, and lose our way eternally. As an extreme example: Consider the one who discovers that by using olive oil in place of margarine, depression can be avoided. Deciding that olive oil is too expensive, and ceasing to use it, might result in such a bout with depression as to make such a one suicidal. Suicide is, of course, not a good means of entering the pearly gates. But diet does affect our spirits/moods. It does have a bearing on our spiritual sensitivities. It impacts other fleshly lusts. All of these are detailed in Ellen White's writings, which you claim to be so familiar with as to not need to see the passages reiterated here. Nevertheless, I will give you one that shows diet is important to salvation. Those who are not health reformers treat themselves unfairly and unwisely. By the indulgence of appetite they do themselves fearful injury. Some may think that the question of diet is not important enough to be included in the question of religion. But such make a great mistake. God's Word declares, "Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." The subject of temperance, in all its bearings, has an important place in the working out of our salvation. Because of wrong habits of eating, the world is becoming more and more immoral. --Letter 49, 1902. {Ev 265.2}
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183683
05/16/17 10:02 PM
05/16/17 10:02 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2022
Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
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I have been trying to leave the diet question alone in this thread, and address only the rejection of the testimonies. That said, you have provided ample fodder in your post--chaff, if you will.
It _IS_ a matter of salvation. On that point, Wanderer, you are simply dead wrong, and I pray souls are not led astray by such inaccuracies...to their eternal ruin. To set the record straight, allow me the privilege of presenting a few statements from the Testimonies themselves. I hope you do not reject these.
I am very well aware of all of the quotes you have supplied, and much more. But we differ in our interpretation of same. I can personally name people who are dead now, victims of a "health message" gone astray. Perhaps, in discounting my expressed opinions, which I have not yet tried to defend, you are largely unaware of what I am talking about? Questions on diet are not to be made a "test" of a person's salvation. Can you atleast provide something from the Bible that would prove me wrong? Again and again I have been instructed that the medical missionary work is to bear the same relation to the work of the third angel's message that the arm and hand bear to the body. Under the direction of the divine Head they are to work unitedly in preparing the way for the coming of Christ. The right arm of the body of truth is to be constantly active, constantly at work, and God will strengthen it. But it is not to be made the body. At the same time the body is not to say to the arm, "I have no need of thee." The body has need of the arm in order to do active, aggressive work. Both have their appointed work, and each will suffer great loss if worked independently of the other.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 288. {ChS 134.4} "Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand." (Phil 4:5, MKJV) Where do you get the idea that diet is not a "test" of salvation? Diet was the start of sin on earth. Jesus' 40-day fast was to conquer on this issue in our behalf. As an extreme example: Consider the one who discovers that by using olive oil in place of margarine, depression can be avoided. Deciding that olive oil is too expensive, and ceasing to use it, might result in such a bout with depression as to make such a one suicidal. Suicide is, of course, not a good means of entering the pearly gates. This thing re Olive oil is completely false. I know people who have believed and tried this to no avail. I noticed that you gave an "extreme example." In other words, your point is hypothetical, and not actually something in actual experience. If you are trying to say that "it was about the food" for Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness, well thats just plain wrong too. Instead of dismissing the quotes I gave above, and supplanting them with your own, it might be better to show how the quotes I gave are "wrong" so that we have something to go on here
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance." "There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8) https://www.lightintheclouds.net/wordSincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit - The Wanderer
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183685
05/16/17 10:23 PM
05/16/17 10:23 PM
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NON-SDA
Active Member 2020
Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
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It _IS_ a matter of salvation. Although I have no intention of joining this thread, I feel one must address error wherever found. Health and diet ABSOLUTELY_IS_ NOT a matter of salvation. That statement is wrong on so many levels it deserves a thread of its own. The Apostle Paul: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--" Eph. 2:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!" Gal. 1:8
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: Nadi]
#183686
05/17/17 02:08 AM
05/17/17 02:08 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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I have been trying to leave the diet question alone in this thread, and address only the rejection of the testimonies. That said, you have provided ample fodder in your post--chaff, if you will.
It _IS_ a matter of salvation. On that point, Wanderer, you are simply dead wrong, and I pray souls are not led astray by such inaccuracies...to their eternal ruin. To set the record straight, allow me the privilege of presenting a few statements from the Testimonies themselves. I hope you do not reject these.
I am very well aware of all of the quotes you have supplied, and much more. But we differ in our interpretation of same. I can personally name people who are dead now, victims of a "health message" gone astray. Perhaps, in discounting my expressed opinions, which I have not yet tried to defend, you are largely unaware of what I am talking about? Questions on diet are not to be made a "test" of a person's salvation. Can you atleast provide something from the Bible that would prove me wrong? Again and again I have been instructed that the medical missionary work is to bear the same relation to the work of the third angel's message that the arm and hand bear to the body. Under the direction of the divine Head they are to work unitedly in preparing the way for the coming of Christ. The right arm of the body of truth is to be constantly active, constantly at work, and God will strengthen it. But it is not to be made the body. At the same time the body is not to say to the arm, "I have no need of thee." The body has need of the arm in order to do active, aggressive work. Both have their appointed work, and each will suffer great loss if worked independently of the other.--Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 288. {ChS 134.4} "Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand." (Phil 4:5, MKJV) Where do you get the idea that diet is not a "test" of salvation? Diet was the start of sin on earth. Jesus' 40-day fast was to conquer on this issue in our behalf. As an extreme example: Consider the one who discovers that by using olive oil in place of margarine, depression can be avoided. Deciding that olive oil is too expensive, and ceasing to use it, might result in such a bout with depression as to make such a one suicidal. Suicide is, of course, not a good means of entering the pearly gates. This thing re Olive oil is completely false. I know people who have believed and tried this to no avail. I noticed that you gave an "extreme example." In other words, your point is hypothetical, and not actually something in actual experience. If you are trying to say that "it was about the food" for Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness, well thats just plain wrong too. Instead of dismissing the quotes I gave above, and supplanting them with your own, it might be better to show how the quotes I gave are "wrong" so that we have something to go on here Wanderer, What makes you think I was dismissing the quotes you presented? Did I say I was? Did I comment upon them at all? All of the quotes you gave from the Bible and Ellen White supported what I have been saying. I had no problem with any of them, and I am certainly NOT "supplanting" them with the addition of the quotes I presented, as if Ellen White were supplanting herself! Do you know what "supplant" means? For example, you quoted Philippians 4:5 in your earlier post. Mrs. White quotes that verse to support the use of milk and eggs in the diet. If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself. It _IS_ a matter of salvation. Although I have no intention of joining this thread, I feel one must address error wherever found. Health and diet ABSOLUTELY_IS_ NOT a matter of salvation. That statement is wrong on so many levels it deserves a thread of its own. The Apostle Paul: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--" Eph. 2:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!" Gal. 1:8 Nadi, Salvation comes by multiple agencies. Only God saves us, it is true, and it is true that no one saved will "deserve" it, therefore we can say we are saved by "grace." However, if all were saved ONLY by grace, why are not all saved? Why are some lost? Is God's grace NOT sufficient for them? The Bible says His grace is sufficient. Obviously, then, it takes more than just God and His grace to result in our salvation. The Bible quotes many things by which we are saved, including grace, hope, fear, baptism, Jesus' name, obedience, faith, confession and repentance, and more. In order to understand spiritual things, we must have mental acuity. If we allow our brains to become deadened by an inappropriate diet, we may very well lose our salvation. Religion and Health.--True religion and the laws of health go hand in hand. It is impossible to work for the salvation of men and women without presenting to them the need of breaking away from sinful gratifications, which destroy the health, debase the soul, and prevent divine truth from impressing the mind.--Review and Herald, Nov. 12, 1901. {CM 131.2}
Those who act as teachers are to be intelligent in regard to disease and its causes, understanding that every action of the human agent should be in perfect harmony with the laws of life. The light God has given on health reform is for our salvation and the salvation of the world. Men and women should be informed in regard to the human habitation, fitted up by our Creator as His dwelling place, and over which He desires us to be faithful stewards. "For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."--Review and Herald, Nov. 12, 1901.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: dedication]
#183687
05/17/17 02:51 AM
05/17/17 02:51 AM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,430
Canada
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It's possible people are simply talking past each other.
Is diet a test of salvation?
The debate is sort of running on the same lines as debates concerning -- is the Sabbath a test of salvation?
Is honesty and integrity a test of salvation?
Is worshipping God and having no other gods before Him, a test of salvation?
The answer depends on which aspect of salvation one is considering.
The scripture are clear concerning the source and means of salvation:
Nothing we do or try to do, or work hard doing, will ever pardon any of sins, nor can it obtain salvation for us.
Not the labour of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law's demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, and Thou alone.
So yes, "by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. It is not of works, lest anyone should boast" Eph. 2.8-9
But scripture does not stop there. The very next verse reads:
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. Eph. 2:10
Paul is quite clear that a person who has been justified by the cleansing blood of Christ, has "crucified the flesh"
Gal. 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
When a person has accepted Christ as portrayed in Romans 6, their life is transformed by grace as well.
Roman 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Our seeking to do God's will is not the MEANS of salvation, it is the fruit of salvation.
So what is the test that shows we have actually accepted Christ into our lives?
The "test" isn't the means to salvation, the test is an indicator as to whether we really are following Christ as our Lord and Savior, or whether we have other "gods" -- like our belly.
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183688
05/17/17 03:42 AM
05/17/17 03:42 AM
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OP
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,430
Canada
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Salvation comes by multiple agencies. Only God saves us, it is true, and it is true that no one saved will "deserve" it, therefore we can say we are saved by "grace."
Salvation comes only through Christ our Savior. There are no multiple agencies. There is only one way, and that is Christ.
Acts 2:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. However, if all were saved ONLY by grace, why are not all saved? Why are some lost? Is God's grace NOT sufficient for them? The Bible says His grace is sufficient. Obviously, then, it takes more than just God and His grace to result in our salvation. They are lost because they rejected God's grace. This may be the point of misunderstanding. As the sentences above seem to indicate you think of "grace" as just "one part" of salvation. No, grace is the sum total! Grace is not just forgiveness, though that is a BIG part of it. Grace includes much more -- it includes the drawing power from God, it includes the cross and forgiveness, it includes the whole process of regeneration of the human being by the power of the resurrection and Holy Spirit. "Without Christ we can do NOTHING." Without His grace working in our lives, there is no regeneration, only dead works that avail nothing. John 15:5 I am the vine, you [are] the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Our part is to respond to the call of grace, accept the grace, and live under the power of grace. We can accept or reject it. Too many try to earn God's grace, without realizing it's all about God's grace. Accept Him, and as His child, filled with His grace, live for Him. And yes, taking care of the gift of life and health by healthy eating brings glory to His name. Below are some scriptures showing the power of grace. Acts 13:43 Paul and Barnabas. who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
2 Cor. 9:8 And God [is] able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all [things], may abound to every good work:
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
1 Cor. 1:4-5 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; that in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;
1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which [was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: dedication]
#183689
05/17/17 04:22 AM
05/17/17 04:22 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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..we are saved, ... fear ... obedience Scared straight? Really? Who are you of? God? Does one obey in order to obtain salvation? One does not obey because they are required to do so, for hat is not obedience.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#183696
05/17/17 03:11 PM
05/17/17 03:11 PM
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NON-SDA
Active Member 2020
Full Member
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Joined: Jul 2016
Posts: 288
Canada
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Nadi,
Salvation comes by multiple agencies. Only God saves us, it is true, and it is true that no one saved will "deserve" it, therefore we can say we are saved by "grace." However, if all were saved ONLY by grace, why are not all saved? Why are some lost? Is God's grace NOT sufficient for them? The Bible says His grace is sufficient. Obviously, then, it takes more than just God and His grace to result in our salvation. The Bible quotes many things by which we are saved, including grace, hope, fear, baptism, Jesus' name, obedience, faith, confession and repentance, and more. In order to understand spiritual things, we must have mental acuity. If we allow our brains to become deadened by an inappropriate diet, we may very well lose our salvation.
One should start a new thread... That statement goes against the teachings of Jesus, Paul's teachings, Christian beliefs, and Reformation theology. (But it is very Adventist. "We are saved by grace, and keeping the Sabbath, and diet, and dress, and...) The questions asked in the above quote reveal a shocking shallowness of understanding on so many levels.
"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Eggs, milk, and the Spirit of Prophecy
[Re: Nadi]
#183712
05/18/17 12:47 PM
05/18/17 12:47 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2018
Most Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
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Nadi,
Salvation comes by multiple agencies. Only God saves us, it is true, and it is true that no one saved will "deserve" it, therefore we can say we are saved by "grace." However, if all were saved ONLY by grace, why are not all saved? Why are some lost? Is God's grace NOT sufficient for them? The Bible says His grace is sufficient. Obviously, then, it takes more than just God and His grace to result in our salvation. The Bible quotes many things by which we are saved, including grace, hope, fear, baptism, Jesus' name, obedience, faith, confession and repentance, and more. In order to understand spiritual things, we must have mental acuity. If we allow our brains to become deadened by an inappropriate diet, we may very well lose our salvation.
One should start a new thread... That statement goes against the teachings of Jesus, Paul's teachings, Christian beliefs, and Reformation theology. (But it is very Adventist. "We are saved by grace, and keeping the Sabbath, and diet, and dress, and...) The questions asked in the above quote reveal a shocking shallowness of understanding on so many levels. Blessings Nadi, could I ask a direct question? Is it possible for people, even professed Christians, to be lost?
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