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#183720 - 05/19/17 01:50 AM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: The Wanderer]
His child Offline
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Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
You are obviously coughing up some very specious adhominem arguments to make one text say something is wrong with 47 other textual renderings. You stated above: and this proves nothing, even if it were true, which it is not.


As I understand it...
Daniel is written in Hebrew (1:1-2:2) (8:1-12:13)
Daniel is written in Aramaic (2:3 - 7:28)
The only other book that is written in Aramaic is Ezra. The word kingdom <04437> that appears in the Aramaic part of Daniel is never translated as kingdom in Ezra.

Only in Daniel. Of this Aramaic word, I wrote “The very word that you use to support your position is not translated KINGDOM anywhere else in Scripture other than Daniel!”

Where is the evidence to the contrary upon which you base this statement that implies that I am in error?

Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
even if it were true, which it is not
This is not true and I showed the evidence above


If you showed it there would be no need to keep asking you to show the evidence. To say that truth is not true is wrong. William Shae and many SDA teachers could be a blessing to you.
_________________________
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3).
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#183726 - 05/19/17 02:43 PM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: His child]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: His child
The word kingdom <04437> that appears in the Aramaic part of Daniel is never translated as kingdom in Ezra.

Only in Daniel. Of this Aramaic word, I wrote “The very word that you use to support your position is not translated KINGDOM anywhere else in Scripture other than Daniel!”

There are only two places where 04437 occurs, Ezra and Daniel. To say, "anywhere else in Scripture", when the only other place is 4 occurrences in Ezra seems rather weak.

However.....
In Ezra it is translated as reign and realm.
How do you see "realm" as being different from "kingdom"?

Especially when it says, "in my realm" and "the realm of the king"?
Meaning, "realm" in that verse cannot be the same thing as "king", since the "realm" is of the "king", that the king possesses, you know, like a kingdom.
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#183727 - 05/19/17 02:50 PM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: His child]
kland Offline
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Originally Posted By: His child

kland,

I agree with you. I do not see a mechanism for an American President to come back into office.

I follow Daniel 7 & 8 to Obama. And Revelation 13.

Do you agree that Greek letter Omega has no correlation with the English/Latin letter "W"?

What correlation does Omega have in English? Looks like you'd jump all over that with Obama!

...From [Quincy] Adams to Obama.... I'm sure something could be calculated....
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#183730 - 05/19/17 09:49 PM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: kland]
His child Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child
The word kingdom <04437> that appears in the Aramaic part of Daniel is never translated as kingdom in Ezra.

Only in Daniel. Of this Aramaic word, I wrote “The very word that you use to support your position is not translated KINGDOM anywhere else in Scripture other than Daniel!”

There are only two places where 04437 occurs, Ezra and Daniel. To say, "anywhere else in Scripture", when the only other place is 4 occurrences in Ezra seems rather weak.

However.....
In Ezra it is translated as reign and realm.
How do you see "realm" as being different from "kingdom"?

Especially when it says, "in my realm" and "the realm of the king"?
Meaning, "realm" in that verse cannot be the same thing as "king", since the "realm" is of the "king", that the king possesses, you know, like a kingdom.


You grasped my point. In Daniel 7:17 Heaven stated that the interpretation of the sea beast is that they were 4 earth kings. That is the meaning that Heaven gave of the beasts that was to be sealed until the time of the end.

When 7:23 & 24 were interpreted by men, the time of the end had not yet arrived and they went with the understanding that had been revealed up until their time. They set aside heavens statement in Daniel 7:17 and rather than accept that the fourth beast was to be the reign of the 4th king, they went with the word kingdom.

I do not fault them for applying what had been revealed at their time to the interpretation of the prophecy. But knowledge has increased and the tradition that the prophecy is about kingdoms rather than individuals will blindside those who are not following the light of Present Truth.

It is like those folks in 1844 who refused to follow Jesus from the Holy Place into the Most Holy Place. When light moved, they lost their blessing because they refused to follow the light.

In their situation according to my recollection of EGW's comments, Satan then assumed the position that Christ had occupied in the first compartment and those who refused to follow Christ into the Most Holy place ended up worshiping at Satan's feet.

We would do well not to repeat that error on the eve of Christ's Coming
_________________________
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3).
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#183731 - 05/19/17 09:51 PM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: kland]
His child Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: His child

kland,

I agree with you. I do not see a mechanism for an American President to come back into office.

I follow Daniel 7 & 8 to Obama. And Revelation 13.

Do you agree that Greek letter Omega has no correlation with the English/Latin letter "W"?

What correlation does Omega have in English? Looks like you'd jump all over that with Obama!

...From [Quincy] Adams to Obama.... I'm sure something could be calculated....
I replied to your question earlier this morning on the other thread.
_________________________
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3).
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#183733 - 05/20/17 05:25 AM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: His child]
dedication Offline
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Registered: 04/25/04
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Originally Posted By: His child
Originally Posted By: kland
In Ezra it is translated as reign and realm.
How do you see "realm" as being different from "kingdom"?

Especially when it says, "in my realm" and "the realm of the king"?
Meaning, "realm" in that verse cannot be the same thing as "king", since the "realm" is of the "king", that the king possesses, you know, like a kingdom.


You grasped my point. In Daniel 7:17 Heaven stated that the interpretation of the sea beast is that they were 4 earth kings. That is the meaning that Heaven gave of the beasts that was to be sealed until the time of the end.



???? Kland was saying --"the "realm" is of the "king", that the king possesses, you know, like a kingdom."

That means -- "the realm" or kingdom is not restricted to a specific king, though for a time he is the king of the realm or kingdom. The realm or kingdom remains the same, even though the rulers of the realm or kingdom change.

Three of those beast kingdoms had a strong king that elevated them to empire status in rather quick, sweeping rapidity.
Nebuchadnezzar brought Babylon to empire status,(even while his father was king, Nebuchadnezzar was the general of the army) yet Babylon (the lion) continued after Nebuchadnezzar died.
Cyrus brought Media Persia to empire status, yet Media Persia (the bear) continued after Cyrus died.
Alexander brought Grecia to empire status, his empire split into four after his death, symbolized by the four heads on the leopard beast.
Rome was diverse from the rest, going through seven forms of government, yet the "king" that really brought it to empire status was Augustus Caesar, however, the empire included many more "kings".

To say these beasts now represent
lion - President Regan
bear - President Bush Sr.
leopard with four heads - President Bill Clinton
------did he split America into four divisions?
4th beast - President Bush Jr.
-------did he produce ten horns -those ten presidents did they emerge from him?

Actually you were pretty strong on saying Bush Jr. was the last president back about ten years ago.

Originally Posted By: HC
When 7:23 & 24 were interpreted by men, the time of the end had not yet arrived and they went with the understanding that had been revealed up until their time. They set aside heavens statement in Daniel 7:17 and rather than accept that the fourth beast was to be the reign of the 4th king, they went with the word kingdom.
I do not fault them for applying what had been revealed at their time to the interpretation of the prophecy. But knowledge has increased and the tradition that the prophecy is about kingdoms rather than individuals will blindside those who are not following the light of Present Truth


Are you now saying Daniel 7 is not talking about the progression of kingdoms from Babylon- Persia- Greece -- Rome which divides into 10 and the papal horn grows from it to dominate.

I suppose it is a natural end result for when we say the beasts of Daniel 7, are Babylon, Persia, Greek, Rome, we can't then turn around and say they are Reagan, Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, Bush Jr.. The horns on the fourth beast of Daniel 7, can't first be European divisions emerging from the 4th beast, and then turn them into ten presidents of the USA that happened to be presidents BEFORE Bush Jr. who you were saying was the last president.

Of course you have revised your "studies" and jumped from the 1st beast to the second beast to account for Obama being president since Bush Jr.

However, by making the 1st beast four presidents
and by making the ten horns on the 1st beast ten presidents
you have made the first beast a symbol of the USA, not of Papal Rome.

Trump is now president -- for real.

Why wait for something that probably will not happen?
Obama has left the White House.

Obama being OUT of office, does not change the prophetic march leading to Christ's second coming. .

We need to get back to the historicist method to study prophecies. It is the only method whereby we can find the true meaning and see how the forces have been building up through the ages past right up to the present, and how the 'wound' is healing and the two "beasts" joining hands to bring in the last crises.
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#183735 - 05/20/17 11:15 AM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: dedication]
His child Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
...
Trump is now president -- for real.

Why wait for something that probably will not happen?
Obama has left the White House.


I wait Because the word of God is sure. (though our understanding is only partial with a more fuller understanding to come when the perfect fulfillment comes.)

The book of Daniel is for the last days.

Quote:
"As the message of Christ's first advent announced the kingdom of His grace, so the message of His second advent announces the kingdom of His glory. And the second message, like the first, is based on the prophecies. The words of the angel to Daniel relating to the last days were to be understood in the time of the end. At that time, "many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." ... Daniel 12:4, 10. The Saviour Himself has given signs of His coming, and He says, "When ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." "And take heed to yourselves, lest...that day come upon you unawares." "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Luke 21:31, 34, 36. {DA 234.4} underlining mine


Daniel 7 identifies the great kingdoms from Babylon to papal Rome. That is true and it is a historical fact that cannot be denied. We can see that by sight. But the portion of Daniel 7 that was sealed up until the last days has not been fulfilled and we must see that by faith. "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17).

The battle that is raging is sight vs faith. By sight we see Babylon to Rome, but by faith I see Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, & Obama. By sight we see Obama has left office. By faith the prophecy stops at Obama.

So how should I reconcile what I see with what I read in the word of God? Some conclude that I have been reading things into the word. I read it and wonder aloud "does it mean this or that?" My musings appear to be speculation. But the word of God is sure. I follow it to Obama. As I read it Trump is though he has never been President.

My problem is: not understanding how the prophecy ends with Obama when he is not in office to fulfill that which is written of him.

The only solutions that I currently see are these 3:

1) If I have misread the prophecy, I must be entirely wrong (that is the view that my critics cherish)

2) Obama has to come back at a specific time that would make Trump's presidency as though it had never been. As I currently read it Obama will be in office when Christ comes and Obama will be destroyed by the brightness of His glory.

(There is no mechanism in place at this time to put him back in office. But there is a precedence of sorts. The former FBI director came to the end of his term and Congress enacted a law that specifically allowed him to continue after the time was up to give President Obama an opportunity to find a suitable replacement.So now that there is a special prosecutor looking into Trumps actions and VP Pence has now been implicated by some as a part of the scandal, the Congress might look at Obama, as a stabilizing stand in, to take us to the next election cycle. I don't know. I'm studying the prophecy and prayerfully WATCHING.)

3) Or Christ must come during Trump's accession year.

Originally Posted By: dedication

Obama being OUT of office, does not change the prophetic march leading to Christ's second coming. .

We need to get back to the historicist method to study prophecies. It is the only method whereby we can find the true meaning and see how the forces have been building up through the ages past right up to the present, and how the 'wound' is healing and the two "beasts" joining hands to bring in the last crises.


Historcism is not a salvation issue. It is a humanly devised methodology to aid in the explanation of Scripture. It is a framework to help feeble mortals make sense of the word of God that can be complicated. The historicist method is not infallible and as it is most often applied today it focuses on things that have been fulfilled in the past rather than what is upon us.

When the Adventist Pioneers used the historicist method, they applied it to present truth as well as past history. Thus based on the historicist method they could say before the fact in 1840 that Jesus would come in 1843 and before the fact they could repeat the message as it applied to 1844 using the historicist method. That is how I apply the historicist method; but my critics do not accept my application of the historicist method that is in full harmony with that of the pioneers.

The misapplication of the historicist method that is being advocated today by my critics makes the historicist method more like an amalgamation with Preterism that places the fulfilled prophecies of Daniel in the past while denying that they do such a thing. And they are in fact denying that the complete fulfillment of Daniel is upon us. When it comes to the correct application of the historicist method as it relates to Present Truth these so called historicists call the application of the historicist method as it relates to events in our immediate future as Futurism.

When we get back to the historicist method that the Adventist pioneers used you will be in harmony with my studies.




Edited by His child (05/20/17 12:20 PM)
_________________________
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3).
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#183736 - 05/20/17 06:46 PM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: kland]
The Wanderer Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
There are only two places where 04437 occurs, Ezra and Daniel. To say, "anywhere else in Scripture", when the only other place is 4 occurrences in Ezra seems rather weak.
This is incorrect. There are 57 instances where 4437 is used in the Bible, 47 of those in the book of Daniel. It is correctly interpreted as "kingdom/s" in Daniel 7:14, 18, 23, and 27. I listed some context in my last post above.
_________________________
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)

- The Wanderer
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#183737 - 05/20/17 06:53 PM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: dedication]
The Wanderer Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication

Obama being OUT of office, does not change the prophetic march leading to Christ's second coming. .

We need to get back to the historicist method to study prophecies. It is the only method whereby we can find the true meaning and see how the forces have been building up through the ages past right up to the present, and how the 'wound' is healing and the two "beasts" joining hands to bring in the last crises.

This is correct. otherwise it is impossible for us to know the truth; the historicist method of Bible prophecy interpretation has never been replaced by anything that even comes close to the correct context and truths needed to understand prophecy. It has, of course, been supplanted by some in order to bolster their "private interpretations.

It is impossible to "Trump" Bible prophecy, correctly understood. (pun intended) smile
_________________________
"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)

- The Wanderer
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#183738 - 05/21/17 02:23 PM Re: Daniel 9 and the 144,000 [Re: dedication]
His child Offline
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Loc: TN, USA
Originally Posted By: dedication
To say these beasts now represent
lion - President Regan
bear - President Bush Sr.
leopard with four heads - President Bill Clinton
------did he split America into four divisions?
4th beast - President Bush Jr.
-------did he produce ten horns -those ten presidents did they emerge from him?

Actually you were pretty strong on saying Bush Jr. was the last president back about ten years ago.


In the context Daniel 7... vss 1-14 is the vision and vss 15-28 is the interpretation.

When 7:17 explains that the 4-sea beasts are symbolic of the four endtime earth Presidents (Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II), these individuals can be inserted in place of the lion (Reagan) the bear (Bush I), the leopard (Clinton) and the indescribable beast (Bush II)

Then when the vision with the meaning inserted arrives at 7:11 " I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame."

In the context of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, pagan and papal Rome this was the commencement of the Investigative Judgment. But in conjunction with Heaven's endtime interpretation this is Christ's Second Coming. "till the beast was slain" is the destruction of Bush II by Christ's glory at His Advent. BUT as the Roman beast had its pagan and papal phase, the Bush II beast has its Bush II and Obama phase.

7:12 "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

This applies to Reagan, Bush I and Clinton. They were allotted a season and a time. The year has 4 seasons (spring, summer, fall, and winter) each season is about 90 days (4 seasons times 90=360 days to make a prophetic year). A day in Bible prophecy is a year. 90-days (a season) is 90 years. A time is a year. The context is of 4 American Presidents allotted a season and a time/91 years.

Reagan was 90 on February 6, 2001. In his 91st year Bush II was in office. Reagan, Bush I, and Clinton were alive and out of office as the text stated: "As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away [they were not p[residents at that time]: yet their lives were prolonged [they were still alive] for a season and time [at the end of the 91 years]."

9/11/01 happened in Reagan's 91st year that marked the end of the season and time.

And what was the status of the little horn pope (John-Paul II)?

1) John-Paul II had physically received a deadly wound that had been healed, he had received the healing of the 1798 secular papal wound from Reagan who recognized him as a head of state and sent an American Ambassador to Rome,

2) John-Paul II had received the healing of the 1798 spiritual papal wound from Bush II who received him as the "world's moral LEADER" akin to being leader or head of all the churches,

3) John-Paul II waged war against Communism ad won without firing a shot

4) John-Paul II spoke great things against the Most High when John-Paul II said Sunday is God's Sabbath

5) John-Paul II plucked up three American Presidents Reagan Bush I and Clinton so much so that the papal beast in Rev 13 looked like a lion's mouth (Reagan the great Orator) Bush I (bear) and Clinton (leopard's features)

6) John-Paul II died 42 months full months after 9/11/01
October, November, December 2001-----------3 months
2001--------------------------------------12 months
2003--------------------------------------12 months
2003--------------------------------------12 months
January, February, March 2005----3 months
he died April 2, 2005----------------42 full months after 9/11 on the Gregorian calendar. There is an interesting insight if you study the text and timing using the Hebrew calendar (it is to the very day).

And there is more but when the naysayers trample these pearls in the mud of unbelief, there will still be more evidence to show truth seekers that the complete fulfillment of Revelation 13 is upon us. Knowledge is increasing and that we know in part as the prophecies are about to be fulfilled and we know more as they are fulfilled (if we are praying, and studying and receiving the increase of knowledge as God's Spirit leads us into all truth).
_________________________
"Ignorance is sin, when knowledge can be obtained" (HR, September 1, 1866 par. 3).
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