Interesting. Then, to be logically consistent, she cannot say Adam bore any responsibility for his fall. There is also no need of a Savior since God is responsible for Adam's and our sins. We were really only obeying Him all the time.

Yes, we can count on it -- God will not fail!

The age old question of course has been -- "if God is a God of love why is there so much suffering in the world"? It's an inescapable question that plagues people.

We do have the answer in inspired writings --
To understand we need to understand what the great controversy is all about.

1. Free choice.
God seeks those who worship Him in Spirit and in truth.
John 4:23 " the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

God could have created beings who were incapable of rebelling against Him. He also could have stopped sin in it's beginnings by forceful removable.

However, in order to choose, a created being has to know about both sides. When sin first entered, it didn't sound all that bad, in fact it was made to sound like something better than what God had to offer. (Which is still Satan's big deceptive claim).

So sin is allowed to demonstrate it's results. Sin doesn't just bring ruin and heartache to the ones in open defiance of God's law, it also brings ruin, disease, poverty and death to people we would describe as "innocent". The whole creation is groaning under the results of sin. The pain, mental, physical and emotional damage, the ruin of society, health, and moral values is the "norm" while the good things are blessings in life come from God to help us cope with the "norm".



Often we can't understand "why", but then when we look at what sin is doing in the world, we can ask "why not me?" compared to what others have endured, we still have it very good. How many of God's followers suffered severely in this world, loosing everything, yet held on to their faith because of their hope and faith in the promise---
John 16:44 " in me ye may have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Isaiah 41:10 "Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness."

As someone else wrote -- We know the end of the story. We may be in a dark tunnel but we have that glorious hope, and those are the promises we place our faith in.

Satan's plan is to wrest us away from our hope, and plunge us into despair and hopelessness -- he works hard to do this. But keep looking up -- never give up.



2. Abraham

An object lesson in faith --

The false religion in Abraham's day taught offering one's child to the "gods" would reverse bad luck. In 2 Chronicles 28 we read that even in Israel, child sacrifice to the "gods" was being practiced.

But is that what God wants?
No -- the story of Abraham shows we do NOT need to sacrifice our children to gain favor with the "gods".
For God Himself provided Himself as the lamb.
In our day, we tend to assume that Abraham KNEW child sacrifice was not God's way, but remember Abraham came from Ur of Chaldea where this practice was common, He lived among the Canaanites who also practiced it.

God showed Abraham the truth of the gospel --
-- Abraham was willing to give up everything dear to him in order to have God's favor, -- that is good, that is faith.

-- but God shows him he does NOT need to sacrifice his son in order to gain favor with God, a much better offering has been provided for our sins.

Isaac asked "My father, . . . where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" Abraham answered, "My son, God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering" Genesis 22:7, 8, not then realizing the prophetic reality of his words.

God did provide a ram, caught in the bushes for the sacrifice. That ram was a substitute representing the "Lamb of God"
And in the ram divinely provided in the place of Isaac, Abraham saw a symbol of Him who was to die for the sins of men.

We too can gain courage from this --
Can we pray over a child or a loved one stricken with disease, "not my will but Thine be done". "Lord I want them to be healed, but you know the end from the beginning, no matter what the out come, I place them in Your hands. I know you shed your blood that they might be saved, I trust in you to do what is best for their eternal welbeing."

It is not wrong for Christians to have pain-filled thinking,or to wonder where God is. If you do not have this happening thats ok too, but its not OK to disparage people going through a rough time,and experiencing this kind of anxiety. Jesus Himself cried from the cross:"Why hast Thou forsaken me?" It is incumbent upon all Christians to have the same types of experience as Jesus. "...Those who are crushed in spirit; God saves." (Psalms 34:19)

Our movement from broken-hearted to whole-hearted, is the passionate desire of Christ. "I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness." (Ezekiel 34:12) "When The Clouds Go By" is a very fitting name for this topic.

It is one thing to have pain in your life because of bad things happening to you. It is quite another to say God is failing you because bad things happen to you. That is quite an accusation against God. It says you believe He is the source of your pain. That is most emphatically not true.

God will not fail!
The fact, however, is that many people do believe God has let them down. I fully agree that it is emphatically not true, yet finite people living in sin wracked world often fall into the pit of despondency (as depicted in Pilgrim's Progress)and they need a helping hand.



CHRISTIAN then asks HELP (who represents the Holy Spirit) why this dangerous plot of land had not been mended so that poor travelers might go safely to the Celestial City. Help replies, “This miry slough is such a place that cannot be mended.”

In this world of sin and suffering there are times in our lives when we, too, will struggle through the swamps of despondency — but God has NOT failed, we can praise God that He has provided us a Helper for those times of need! We need to look up-- press on, seeking and trusting the power of the Holy Spirit to pull us out of those depressingly dangerous swamps, and set our feet back upon the Rock of our salvation.

Thus yes, it is imperative that we KNOW God will not fail, else we, like PLIABLE in the story, will turn back to the City of Destruction.

Isn't it amazing how good a book Pilgrim's Progress is? I have always loved that book because it is so good at showing the reality of life in a sinful world. Bunyan really understood spiritual realities.

That is a very good book It was one of the first books I bought after I was baptized.

Maybe it is not so much an "accusation against God," as much as it is just saying how we feel sometimes when the going gets really tough. Even Jesus did such a thing:

Maybe it is not so much an "accusation against God," as much as it is just saying how we feel sometimes when the going gets really tough. Even Jesus did such a thing:

Indeed, Jesus did say that. But under what circumstances? He had always known the presence of His Father, and Ellen White tells us that the Father had withdrawn His presence so that Jesus could no longer perceive it. So Jesus was responding to what was really happening. He response was not a lack of faith, or in other words, distrust He had of His Father.

I've been at the point that I didn't think God was there for me. So I know what it is like, but just because I accused God of letting me down doesn't make it the right thing to do. It was, in fact, a statement of my unbelief at the time....

Read Paul. He makes this point again and again about the COI. And every time they didn't believe God was there for them Paul calls it unbelief. Every time. Moses did the same thing. At the end of the book of Deuteronomy he tells the COI that they are a rebellious people who do not have faith in God. He was right on the money too.

Gary, I believe that God gives us some choices like a Parent does with their own children. Choices is part in any education program including our Heavenly Father's [spiritual] education program.

God is our heavenly father that is on a mission to teach us His laws and discipline us also when we failed our lessons. But these little "choices" at man's levels are not above God's Sovereignty or God's plan.

If you want to further discuss about "choices"...then open another discussion as this is way off topic.

For this discussion at hand.... my simple point was that there's two Covenant in scriptures.

1. Old Covenant : based on Man's ability to keep his promise
2. New Covenant : based on God's ability to keep His promise

Which covenant do you believe the world are under? I believe it is the New Covenant.

Which covenant do you personally live by? I'll let you answer for yourself; but for myself....the New Covenant.

If someone lives under the Old Covenant....of course they will have plenty of doubt when the clouds passes by. That's my simple point.