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Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: APL] #184008
06/06/17 12:51 PM
06/06/17 12:51 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: APL
gary, elle resolves our lack of free will by believing that God will save everyone. Her favorite website is steeped in universalism. Satan is the author of sin and the idea of universalism. The New Covenant is indeed based on the promises of God only, but ignores the fact that God's love can be rejected. Yes, God wills all to be saved, that does not mean all will be saved. Universalism ultimately claims all men are righteous, no matter what they do for good will at last come out of evil.

??? what does that has to do with this discussion or my point about us being under the New Covenant? Isn't the New Covenant Biblical? Did I mis-represent the New Covenant presented in scripture? That's how you should base your objections. Not on if I eat[or not] eggs, or if I believe[or not] in Woman ordination, or whatever else that you can find about me that is totally OFF-TOPIC.

BTW....APL...you don't know what you are speaking about.

We SDAs are WAY closer in beliefs & doctrines with the RCC beliefs & doctrines; than I, with my "restitution of all things" beliefs & doctrines to those of the Universalism beliefs & doctrines. You probably don't know the difference.

Stick to the discussion at hand APL. If you want to talk about the "restitution on all things" (Act 3:21 and also found in the law and other scriptures) then open another discussion. If you want to talk about "universalism" well probably you should wait to find someone else that believes in it.


Blessings
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: ] #184009
06/06/17 01:00 PM
06/06/17 01:00 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
I do agree with Gary's post here. I don't believe Jesus was with doubt or with lack of faith when he cried " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus was quoting the whole Psalm 22 and the first verse is usually the title of the Psalm. Anyway, there's much more to be said there but I don't have time right now.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
It is not wrong for Christians to have pain-filled thinking,or to wonder where God is. If you do not have this happening thats ok too, but its not OK to disparage people going through a rough time,and experiencing this kind of anxiety. Jesus Himself cried from the cross:"Why hast Thou forsaken me?" It is incumbent upon all Christians to have the same types of experience as Jesus. "...Those who are crushed in spirit; God saves." (Psalms 34:19)

Our movement from broken-hearted to whole-hearted, is the passionate desire of Christ. "I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness." (Ezekiel 34:12) "When The Clouds Go By" is a very fitting name for this topic. smile


Maybe it is not so much an "accusation against God," as much as it is just saying how we feel sometimes when the going gets really tough. Even Jesus did such a thing:
Quote:
"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mat 15:34)


Indeed, Jesus did say that. But under what circumstances? He had always known the presence of His Father, and Ellen White tells us that the Father had withdrawn His presence so that Jesus could no longer perceive it. So Jesus was responding to what was really happening. He response was not a lack of faith, or in other words, distrust He had of His Father.

I've been at the point that I didn't think God was there for me. So I know what it is like, but just because I accused God of letting me down doesn't make it the right thing to do. It was, in fact, a statement of my unbelief at the time....

Read Paul. He makes this point again and again about the COI. And every time they didn't believe God was there for them Paul calls it unbelief. Every time. Moses did the same thing. At the end of the book of Deuteronomy he tells the COI that they are a rebellious people who do not have faith in God. He was right on the money too.


Blessings
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: The Wanderer] #184012
06/07/17 01:21 AM
06/07/17 01:21 AM
dedication  Offline
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If you want to discuss the covenants, please start a new thread, yes -- stick to the discussion at hand.

Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: The Wanderer] #184013
06/07/17 01:36 AM
06/07/17 01:36 AM
dedication  Offline
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The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivers them. Psalm 34:7

Try to picture the scene these words are describing!

"If the curtain could be rolled back, and each one could discern the constant activities of the heavenly family to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from Satan's seductive wiles, lest in their careless attitude they should be led astray through satanic strategy, they would lose a large degree of their self-confidence and self-assurance. They would see that the armies of heaven are in continual warfare with satanic agencies, to obtain victories in behalf of those who do not sense their danger, and who are passing on in unconscious indifference. {HP 98.2}


"Angels are belting the world, refusing Satan his claims to supremacy, made because of the vast multitude of his adherents. We hear not the voices, we see not with the natural sight the work of these angels, but their hands are linked about the world, and with sleepless vigilance they are keeping the armies of Satan at bay till the sealing of God's people shall be accomplished. {HP 98.3



Psalm 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us.

Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: dedication] #184015
06/07/17 03:10 AM
06/07/17 03:10 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
And: We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. {GC 36.1}

Originally Posted By: dedication
The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivers them. Psalm 34:7

Try to picture the scene these words are describing!

"If the curtain could be rolled back, and each one could discern the constant activities of the heavenly family to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from Satan's seductive wiles, lest in their careless attitude they should be led astray through satanic strategy, they would lose a large degree of their self-confidence and self-assurance. They would see that the armies of heaven are in continual warfare with satanic agencies, to obtain victories in behalf of those who do not sense their danger, and who are passing on in unconscious indifference. {HP 98.2}


"Angels are belting the world, refusing Satan his claims to supremacy, made because of the vast multitude of his adherents. We hear not the voices, we see not with the natural sight the work of these angels, but their hands are linked about the world, and with sleepless vigilance they are keeping the armies of Satan at bay till the sealing of God's people shall be accomplished. {HP 98.3



Psalm 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us.



Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: Elle] #184081
06/11/17 03:09 PM
06/11/17 03:09 PM
E
Elle  Offline
Active Member 2019
Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Elle
I do agree with Gary's post here. I don't believe Jesus was with doubt or with lack of faith when he cried " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus was quoting the whole Psalm 22 and the first verse is usually the title of the Psalm. Anyway, there's much more to be said there but I don't have time right now.

What I said above is where I agreed with Gary mainly because Rom 14:23 "for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.. We know that Jesus was NOT a sinner...thus His faith was never lacking. So we must not be understanding correctly when Jesus was quoting from memory Ps 22 from the beginning to the end.

There were other things in Gary's post where I disagree and there were some of The Wanderer's post where I agree. I did go thru the text indicating where [in Green where I agree] and [#Number. in Orange where I don't]. The #Number is a reference number for when I comment further below.

Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: The Wanderer
It is not wrong for Christians to have pain-filled thinking,or to wonder where God is.[I agree] If you do not have this happening thats ok too, but its not OK to disparage people going through a rough time,and experiencing this kind of anxiety.[I agree] Jesus Himself cried from the cross:"Why hast Thou forsaken me?" It is incumbent upon all Christians to have the same types of experience as Jesus.[#1. I don't agree] "...Those who are crushed in spirit; God saves." (Psalms 34:19)[I agree]

Our movement from broken-hearted to whole-hearted, is the passionate desire of Christ. "I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness." (Ezekiel 34:12) "When The Clouds Go By" is a very fitting name for this topic. smile


Maybe it is not so much an "accusation against God," as much as it is just saying how we feel sometimes when the going gets really tough.[I agree] Even Jesus did such a thing:[#2. I don't agree]
Quote:
"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mat 15:34)


Indeed, Jesus did say that. But under what circumstances?[I agree] He had always known the presence of His Father, and Ellen White tells us that the Father had withdrawn His presence so that Jesus could no longer perceive it.[#2. I don't agree] So Jesus was responding to what was really happening. He response was not a lack of faith, or in other words, distrust He had of His Father.[I agree]

I've been at the point that I didn't think God was there for me. So I know what it is like, but just because I accused God of letting me down doesn't make it the right thing to do.[#3. I've added another possibility] It was, in fact, a statement of my unbelief at the time.... [I agree]

Read Paul. He makes this point again and again about the COI. And every time they didn't believe God was there for them Paul calls it unbelief. Every time. Moses did the same thing. At the end of the book of Deuteronomy he tells the COI that they are a rebellious people who do not have faith in God. He was right on the money too. [#4. I don't fully agree]


Here is why I don't agree with the following references marked above :

#1.
Originally Posted By: the wanderer
"Jesus Himself cried from the cross:"Why hast Thou forsaken me?" It is incumbent upon all Christians to have the same types of experience as Jesus."


Yes we are to have the same experience as Jesus, but I think you are mis-reading what Jesus meant when He was quoting Ps 22. Jesus was filled with prophesy at that time. Quoting Ps 22, despite it was about David experience when King Saul was chasing him for 12 years, the events listed in Ps 22 was happening to Jesus when He was on the cross. For those witnessing Jesus death on the cross....it appeared to all that God had forsaking Jesus. But Jesus knew all along the Father's plan and was in agreement with it. He knew He was to die. He went along with the plan as a sheep brought to the slaughter house without any fight.

The same for David when King Saul was trying to kill him for so long and chased David out of the land. Despite David was anointed and heard the prophetic words that he will be king...the events of Saul chasing him for 12 years and the other incidences didn't appear that God's words would be fulfilled. To everyone, it appeared on the surface that God had forsaking David. But God never forsook David or Jesus; however God never promise them a rose garden either.

When things seem to go wrong, it is natural for men to assume that God has forsaken them, or that they have taken a wrong path somewhere and they have forsaken God. In this, God often hides Himself to test the faith of the people, so to show them their heart's if they will believe His promise never to leave or forsake us. I don't believe that Jesus ever failed this test and ever believed once that God forsook Him before the cross or on the cross. If he did fail then he wouldn't been qualified to be the 2nd Adam that succeeded in everything where the 1st Adam failed.

#2.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
"Even Jesus did such a thing:"And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mat 15:34) Indeed, Jesus did say that. But under what circumstances? He had always known the presence of His Father, and Ellen White tells us that the Father had withdrawn His presence so that Jesus could no longer perceive it. So Jesus was responding to what was really happening."


I do not agree that God has ever withdrawn His presence from anyone including sinners. I don't see that supported in scriptures. In scriptures we see that God's presence is veil (there's 3 veils in the temple) to protect the youngs in the faith. Moses had to veil his own face when he saw God's glory and radiated from the experience. Moses put on the veil, not to protect himself, but the people who couldn't handle it.

Just because for sinners, when the "clouds comes" (which in essence is a veil that covers God's presence or glory) perceived this as God presence is removed from them.... this doesn't mean it is so. Often the point of view of sinners is different from God's point of view. That's why we need to go to scriptures to read about the coverings-- the veils and it's purposes.

#3.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
"I've been at the point that I didn't think God was there for me. So I know what it is like, but just because I accused God of letting me down doesn't make it the right thing to do."


Let us expand a little about accusing God when things doesn't happened as we expected versus understanding that this event that appeared to all as God has forsaken me...is really part of God's plan. So Jesus could of said at the cross to everyone.... this was the Father's plan all along. I think that what He did when quoting Ps 22. Versus someone, like all of us, that often have no clue why these clouds has comes in. So one person "accusation" comes from faith with understanding and with agreement to God's plan while the other(all of us) doesn't understand God's plan and our accusation is nothing more than an objection(a disagreement) to what God is doing with these clouds.

So when these clouds comes... the tribulation often pushes us to seek to understand why these clouds are there. Some clouds could be there because we're thinking we are in His will when in actuality we are not. Often, we are in deception (I don't believe that was ever the case with Jesus), but God knows that our deception needs to be corrected.

We find this principle in the laws of tribulation. Lev 26 "And if ye shall despise my statutes...my judgments...my commandments...that ye break my covenant: 16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you...

One reason God brings clouds in our life is in order to shake us out of our deception and to bring us to a deeper understanding of His plan, His laws (== His character) so we can mature into the full statue and image of Christ. I don't believe Jesus ever was out of God's will or in deception... thus I don't believe He ever had these type of clouds covering God's presence or glory like we do.

However I do believe Jesus experienced going thru the "clouds" (symbolized in the 3 veils of the temple) as an overcomer, full of faith at every level, with its understanding, and was in perfect agreements with the Father at every step. That's what makes Jesus an overcomer.

#4.
Originally Posted By: Gary K
"Read Paul. He makes this point again and again about the COI. And every time they didn't believe God was there for them Paul calls it unbelief. Every time. Moses did the same thing. At the end of the book of Deuteronomy he tells the COI that they are a rebellious people who do not have faith in God. He was right on the money too. "


Well, the reason why the COI had unbelief is stated very clearly in Deut 29:4 "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day".

The Lord has to open our eyes or our ears for us to see and have faith. So the COI couldn't have faith and was in rebellion because it wasn't time or in God's plan yet for God to open their eyes and ears. The COI were a Passover level of faith type of Church. They were babes (read Gal 4). It is only at the fulfillment of Pentecost in Acts, that the Church(not all but a remnant) finally got some ears to hear and eyes to see. And Pentecost was still not "it" or the end of the road. The Church still has to move into the next level of faith that is yet to be manifested.

As we(corporately as a Church and/or individually) move thru the 3 chambers of the temple that represents the 3 levels of faith (Passover=babes needs to be fed, Pentecost=adolescent learning His laws via Holy Spirit, & Tabernacle=a Man that has been trained and is in full agreement and who enter into his calling and only do what he sees the Father doing and only say what he hears the Father saying) as we grow in Christ. At each level as we pierced thru the veils (the clouds of experiences that God brings into our lives), God's purpose with those clouds is to bring us to the next level of faith so to come closer in seeing & knowing Him(& His plan) and to bring us into full agreement as these veils are ripped thru.

Our level of agreements will be made manifest as He fulfills His vows one step at a time, one law at a time, one clouds at a time, to write His laws into our hearts as He vowed He would do in the New Covenant. And I do believe He will succeed to fulfill His New Covenant vow and finish the work He started in us.


Blessings
Re: When The Clouds Go By [Re: dedication] #184085
06/11/17 06:12 PM
06/11/17 06:12 PM
T
The Wanderer  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2022

Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 545
Central Alberta
Originally Posted By: dedication
Jesus never fails
Jesus never fails
heaven and earth may pass away,
but Jesus never fails.

Friends and Family may fail us
Teachers and leaders may fail us
pastors and spouses may fail us
society and health may fail us
the laws of the land may fail us
our ability to care for ourselves may fail us
all things of earth may fail us

But Jesus never fails.

God has not promised skies always blue,
Flower-strewn pathways all our lives through;
God has not promised sun without rain,
Joy without sorrow, peace without pain.

God has not promised we shall not know
Toil and temptation, trouble and woe;
He has not told us we shall not bear
Many a burden, many a care.

3
God has not promised smooth roads and wide,
Swift, easy travel, needing no guide;
Never a mountain, rocky and steep,
Never a river, turbid and deep.

BUT
But God has promised strength for the day,
Rest for the labor, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing sympathy, undying love.
I like this dedication, thank you for posting it. I can see this topic I have started has indeed generated some strong opinions on several different fronts. I fear that in some ways I have given some here, false impressions of exactly what I believe. When I posted the op it was with the intention of emulating what many people do in fact go through in their Christian experience and pilgrimmage on this earth. I tried to illustrate that Jesus did go through the same kinds of experiences, and we can all draw encouragement from the fact that Jesus understands.
Quote:
It is Satan's work to fill men's hearts with doubt. He leads them to look upon God as a stern judge. He tempts them to sin, and then to regard themselves as too vile to approach their heavenly Father or to excite His pity. The Lord understands all this. Jesus assures His disciples of God's sympathy for them in their needs and weaknesses. Not a sigh is breathed, not a pain felt, not a grief pierces the soul, but the throb vibrates to the Father's heart. {DA 356.2}


"The worst foes of my spiritual life have never been hostile circumstance."

"There is always a little bit of light" (Micah 7:8)
https://www.lightintheclouds.net/word

Sincerely, IN Christ; and THROUGH The Spirit


- The Wanderer
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