Sometimes, God just seems so far away. Its a fact that many of us tend to resist, as if, somehow, experiencing this is a display of "fear" "inadequacy," "anger" "doubt" and many other such things. Guilt and grief can assault us all through events beyond our control. But how does God get so far away during our troubling times? Why do Christians struggle so with feelings of distance and isolation from God? Is God really ready to bring meaning, and hope to our deepest hurts and our least understood emotions? Do the clouds of our experience block out the Light of His presence? Isn't it true, that God sometimes, quite simply, "fails" us? - The Wanderer

Huge question, Wanderer. Do you really want to go there...?

I think part of the picture is "What can one legitimately expect from God?" The Bible has promises of all kinds of wonderful things. If these things do not materialize in our lives as Christians,...Sorry, I see this as a failure.

You may want to continue this discussion as a PM. Otherwise be prepared for a whole lot of insensitive, hurtful people telling you about your lack of faith, dangerous heretical theology, and outright arrogant stupidity and defiance of God.

Your call.

Is this discussion meant to give some comments?

If so, I got two comments for reflection :


If we believe God "fails" us...then in essence we believe the Lord is a sinner. Failing us or "failing to hit the target" with us is both "to miss" somehow. In Hebrew, "to miss" is the proper definition of "sin" -- Khatah (H2398).

The definition of "sin" as "to miss the target" comes out here :

Jud 20:16 "Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss(Khatah).

See : https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H2398&t=NASB

Also Paul brings the Hebrew definition of Khatah (sin, to miss) in Rom 3:23 by saying "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

It is a picture of an archer trying to hit the mark. But the arrows "fall short" of hitting the target. The target is “the glory of God” which is His nature & character that is expressed in His word or law.

So just because all of us sinners, by which all of our arrows has "fall short" from hitting the perfect mark of God ..... does this mean that the Lord will not succeed in getting us to hit that target perfectly in the future?


Notice that Job 36:32 says that it is the Lord that covereth the light with clouds. Very important to keep this detail in our mind while pondering on this text.

So yes, "the clouds of our experience" [that the Lord has brought into our lives] "block out the Light".

I wouldn't say "of His presence" at the end of that statement. Your wording is not inaccurate; but because of the negative connotation we assign to it....I would replace it. I do believe the Lord is always with us, no matter who we are, there's nothing that can separate us from the Love of God. So, I would replace that section with "of His glory". My view, is the Lord is always with all of us, but for most of us He will prevent us to see "of His glory" with those "clouds of our experience" that He moves in front "of His glory".

I believe He is doing this for our own protection until the perfect TIME has arrived for us to see His glory (by which also equates of us being closer to His presence). This same illustration is seen in the Sanctuary where there's 3 veils (which is our flesh or in this application "clouds of our experience") that stops us from seeing His full glory. These veils prevents us from entering in the next chamber too soon and come closer to God before it is time for us to do so.

Yes, all are welcome to comment. No matter what your opinions, I am seeking to learn how others think and respond to such questions and situations. Note: in doing so, I am not saying I believe everything I will ask or post. I may play "devil's advocate" a bit in this thread. I believe ts an important topic. I will reply to above comments a little later.

Yes, I am fine with "going there," and thats the very reason I posted this. I am attempting to discuss a struggle that many have.

Jesus never fails
Jesus never fails
heaven and earth may pass away,
but Jesus never fails.

Friends and Family may fail us
Teachers and leaders may fail us
pastors and spouses may fail us
society and health may fail us
the laws of the land may fail us
our ability to care for ourselves may fail us
all things of earth may fail us

But Jesus never fails.

God has not promised skies always blue,
Flower-strewn pathways all our lives through;
God has not promised sun without rain,
Joy without sorrow, peace without pain.

God has not promised we shall not know
Toil and temptation, trouble and woe;
He has not told us we shall not bear
Many a burden, many a care.

3
God has not promised smooth roads and wide,
Swift, easy travel, needing no guide;
Never a mountain, rocky and steep,
Never a river, turbid and deep.

BUT
But God has promised strength for the day,
Rest for the labor, light for the way,
Grace for the trials, help from above,
Unfailing sympathy, undying love.

That is a question we all need to seriously consider.
We've probably all been there at some point or other, and the question "why?" Why do we feel distance from God at a time we need Him most.

I've asked myself, if I feel so "alone" in these "small trial" which seem so huge, how will I cling to my Savior when the time of trouble comes? If I lose my grip on His strength and love, now, how will I hold fast to Him in the great time of trouble?

Those trials may be wake-up calls to alert us that when things are pretty good, we tend to walk in our own strength and neglect building that close relationship of trust in our Savior.

The answer I have found is that these small trials are allowed to come to draw us closer to totally dependence upon Christ -- not push us away. He gives the strength to get through, His love supports us, we need to build that trust.

That is the "faith of Jesus" spoken of in Revelation.
Jesus, in His humanity, completed trusted in the Father. And when upon the cross feeling excruciating pain, falsely accused, terribly mistreated, feeling an enormous burden of guilt crushing Him (not His own but bearing ours), feeling deserted by God the Father, yet His faith clung to God, His faith in God and that all things will work out for good to them that trust in Him carried Him through!

The faith of Jesus --
"Here is the endurance of the saints who keep God's commandments and have the faith of Jesus." Rev. 14:12

See if I understand your points, dedication!

First, dedication's point : Jesus never fails and He supplies us all that we need. [my summary taken from dedication 1st post]



So dedication, if we fail... well it's not Jesus failure.... for He gave us all that we needed to succeed. Am I understanding your point?

Second dedication's point; these "clouds" is to build in us the same "faith of Jesus".

So are you implying that if we don't make it....well the failure is all ours for we didn't have the "faith of Jesus"?

the wanderer & nadi, do you agree with dedication's points?

God never fails us! The Father, His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit have gone to great lengths to insure the human race knows of the plan of salvation, understands God's standard of judgment and understands the way to be saved and spared destruction.

We are the ones that fail God.

We must get this straight.

"If the clouds are full of rain, they empty themselves on the earth, and if a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where the tree falls, there it will lie." He who observes the wind will not sow, and he who regards the clouds will not reap." (Eccl 11:3-4, ESV)

Then, I know people He has been "waking up" for 20 years Isnt that called torture?

Thank you Alchemy for your direct answer. So you agree with dedication which is basically our Church position.

dedication is very dedicated to the Church's teachings. That's ok. But as we grow older and get off the babies milk...we need to be able to fend for our [spiritual]food from the Holy Spirit personal teachings while we test from scriptures for ourselves if what we were taught in the Church still stand on His Word. From my experience...it's not always so.


The wanderer, please be direct. Do you agree with dedication 2 points highlighted and supersized below. Yes or no? And explain your answer hopefully backed with a scriptural foundation would be great.

Here are the questions for you (and Nadi) conveniences.

Who is God? Why don’t I feel His presence? Where was God when I needed Him? When does the "joy” come? (Psalms 30:5)
Even those who say they have a good, close, personal relationship with God experience times when The Lord seems distant, and unresponsive. When the clouds of experience block the sight of His presence and Light; with all the enemies like clouds of locusts swarming around us in our church, and the spiritual walk disappearing, where is God?

I do not believe that this text I quoted is “being indirect.”

If the clouds are full of rain, they empty themselves on the earth, and if a tree falls to the south or to the north, in the place where the tree falls, there it will lie.
He who observes the wind will not sow, and he who regards the clouds will not reap." (Eccl 11:3-4, ESV)

???

Maybe I wasn't clear.

Here are the questions that I'm re-re-posted for you, the Wanderer, and for Nadi's conveniences. I would like to hear if you agree with dedications position or not. tx.

First, dedication and I view the world from diametrically opposed points of view. I want empirical Scriptural evidence on which to base my beliefs and faith. I am an exegete, she is an eisegete.


As such, I rarely find her points to be supported by anything other than standard SDA/"SOP" rhetoric and her opinion.

Please forgive me. This is not intended to be an attack on dedication.

Her methods work for her. But if she wants to convince ME, she'll have to use something else.

Second,...God never fails?
So...I read Psalm 91, then my house is destroyed and I loose everything. (aka Fort McMurray) This would qualify for a major disaster in my life. Does God not protect from this, LIKE HE SAID? Or perhaps HIS words don't mean what WE think they mean. (aka the little discussion regarding "soon.")

Oh, but in the end he'll save you and it'll all be OK.
Really? And in the meantime I have to watch my family suffer some horrible disaster, precisely what I DON'T WANT TO HAPPEN. But don't sweat it; God'll make it all work out.

Or: "You're not perfect. You indulge sin in your life."
So God will protect us if we are perfect, which we can't be, so...He's off the hook for protecting us??

Need I go on? These are just nutshells of the issue.

I'm sorry Nadi for the calamity you are currently going thru. If it's any source of comfort...you are not alone. I have a long list on my own and I'm sure there's many other here with their own. I do not believe these calamities has to do with you personally or anything to do with your lack of. There might be some small play in it; but overall it is the Lord that is Sovereign and His plan is moving forward PERFECTLY. We may not see the PERFECT plan right now...but we will come to behold it and when we do...I believe we will all rejoice in it -- because I repeat God is not a failure and will not fail any one of us (believers or non-believers).

Like I said in my first post(or was it the other discussion about Carson's opinion of the poor-- he thinks it is their fault if they are poor.). Currently, the Lord put the whole world under the ruling of the last Beastly Empire, called Mystery Babylon. And I'm afraid that the people will suffer some more calamities stemming from the judgment of Mystery Babylon.

Well maybe He will, maybe not the way you had foresaw it. It's not over yet right?


I agree.....there's plenty of "HIS words don't mean what WE think they mean" going around on this forum and the world.

May I add another reason to yours? There's also a lot of texts in scripture that we simply want to IGNORE.... because it simply doesn't agree with our interpretation. So many of us we pay attention to "some" words that proceeded from the mouth of God... but NOT ALL of His Words.

An example : Is 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]." The Hebrew word for "evil" is ra' by which also means calamities. The laws of tribulations further described the "calamities" (evils) that God will inflict on us(corporate nation or individual) in Lev 26 and Deut 28. This is in line with IS 45:7 where we find that it is the Lord that brings on(or "create") the calamities(==evil) unto his Church or other nations via His judgments....It is not Satan. Satan's job is to be an adversary and accuse the brothers. We need to be able to understand and make the proper distinction between the two.

So when God judge the nation of Israel with the Assyrian destruction & captivity and the nation of Judah with the Babylonian destruction & captivity.... the people underwent destruction of their homes, land, most killed, and some taken as captives. These people weren't all "bad". Jeremiah talked that there two groups or two fig trees : some people were "good figs" that stem from a good tree while there were some "evil figs" that stem from an evil tree. So the "good" people (like Daniel and his buddies) suffered the calamities resulting from the judgment of their "evil" nations (as a whole) despite that some individuals weren't guilty of the evil sins of their leaders (from past generations) that were mainly responsible for bringing on these calamities on their nation. Nevertheless, God sent prophets years ahead including Jeremiah to teach them of the coming destruction of Jerusalem and captivity. Jeremiah told them to "submit" to Babylon for Nebuchednezzar was God's servant to bring upon God's judgment on them. What strange language it must of been for many people who didn't study the law in those days. Those that were expose to Lev 26 and Deut 28 in context with their 6 previous captivities brought by the Lord in the book of Judges....these people could recognize that Jeremiah's language was not foreign at all, but was the Lord's own words as expressed in His laws.

Signs were all around them, plus Jeremiah's message....despite he was not the popular voice in his time. Then, these prophets or the "good" people did not escape these calamities either. No matter, how "good" some individuals were in the nation....the House of Judah and the house of Israel both still underwent these calamities.

So we need to understand this type of level of judgment of God in our picture & our cases today also. But what is different with us today...is that we are at the end of this long captivity that lasted 7 times (7 x 360 years = 2520 years). I do not believe we will undergo the same experience as the Israelites or the House of Judah went. Because we stand at a different time in God's perfect plan.

So another thing we need to acknowledge is where we(or our nation) stand today in terms of fulfillment of prophecies. Prophecies on the upper level of fulfillment (nations vs. world vs. the establishment of God's Kingdom) will be fulfilled despite you or I being "good" or "bad" underneath.

We, SDAs (maybe not you Nadi) like to narrow our view down to something simple like blaming these "calamities" on Satan or/and blame it on the people (like Carson did with the poor)..... for this blaming game keeps our image that we've created of the Lord intact and pure.

That's why we need to ask the hard questions and see what scriptures says about these hard questions that often we prefer to plainly ignore. Or if cornered, we respond with non-sense cliche stuff that isn't balance nor entirely scriptural.


God will make it all work out in what way? Is this your belief or you are being sarcastic? I would like to focus on what you understand what scripture says about this. That's what I think we need to focus first.


I'm trying to follow and come to know what you understand.

Again...I don't expect anyone to have the perfect understanding. That's why we study together as a group....as the Lord may of reveal something to you or someone else here ...that I didn't see and vice versa.

I would appreciate if you try to state what you believe the Bible teaches us about this subject. I think that would be more productive as a discussion for all of us.

I believe that dedication is on the right path; however, its just not true that Jesus never fails to supply us with all that we need. He is not here for me now, and I don't see Him no matter how well I behave and do all His rules. Its been one disaster after the next for more than five years, with each one getting worse. So, OK Good. he showed me who is bigger and stronger, but where is all this love He keeps talking about? It certainly isn't in any church or forum or anywhere else that I might look!! He has beat me into the ground and down to the bottom, and there is nothing left. Where is He?

Thank you for your honest reply. Yup! I can exactly relate to your experience. For me....it's been over 12 years(if not more) of failure one after the other...now Advance cancer(but I see little signs that it's healing)... a mental illness that I recently discovered that I was totally in the dark about and I don't know how to manage... tyroid glands out of control.....poverty....stress that overtook physically my back that the pain is just unreal just to pick up a piece of paper of the floor....etc... the list goes on and on. However, it brought me to my "death" (a 'spiritual' death....a breaking point). Too bad that discussion of death & resurrection got hi-jacked! But we can always get back to it.

However, I disagree with dedication's position. I will explain why with scriptures soon. Sooner than John's "soon" words in revelation. :+)

Thank you for sharing these personal details of trials and challenges. it certainly makes your posting on this subject much clearer. Iam looking after a loved one at home with terminal illness, and so this topic has meaning and depth to me, as well as for yourself, and many others. For now, I would like to comment that when people do express these kinds of doubts about God, as in the OP, I think it is wrong, in most instances, for people to "correct" the person who is expressing same. No one has any idea what another is going through in their trials, and it would be better to show some sympathy, and find out more whats going on first. I also think of Job, and how his friends talked to him, and even his wife.

It would be good for people to reflect on why I might have posted this text in the OP

I think you all misread that.
Maybe the double negatives in some sentences confused you.

Where do you read that Jesus promises to give us an easy life, always keeping us supplied here on earth with earthly things?
For what I wrote says the very opposite.

It seems that the premise I'm reading here is that if we don't have an easy life then Jesus failed us?

Now, Jesus DOES give us many good things here on earth, but He never promised a life of easy, in fact He told us
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33


Why do you think Jesus fails?
He promised "strength" to endure
He promised to be with us in the fire of affliction, he never promised a life with no affliction.

We are not in heaven, we are in a world where evil reigns. This world is not our home, we are just traveling through.
Things will get worse, not better in this old world.

And yes, we have all failed, everyone has failed, no question there.
All of us need to increase in faith, and trust in our Savior.
Don't mock the "faith of Jesus" --

His life was not easy, He was betrayed by close friends, He was falsely accused, He was tortured, God seemed far away, He was killed.
Dwell on what Jesus endured so you may have eternal life.
Read Peter's letter to those suffering persecution. He tells them not to think it some strange thing that they have to suffer.
Satan in full fury attacked Christ through his agents.
Satan will attack every follower of Christ.
His goal is to get you separated from Christ and into the swamp of despondency and doubt.


Christ's faith is our goal -- and God is leading us to attain it.

Can you trust him even when everything seems to be going wrong?

We are on the edge of final events.
We may all lose our homes, and worse than Fort Mac, even lose the supportive help that was given to them, and be cast out as refugees.
It is God's grace that is leading us through this wilderness called earth, preparing us for the heavenly home.
Yes, He will give us the strength to endure.
Fill the mind with His word, His love for you -- a love that made Him willing to take all your sins and failings and go to the cross so you can live with Him for ETERNITY, in heaven and later on earth made NEW, without any more affliction, pain, or disaster forever.

Jesus will not fail --

? You didn't quote Eccl 11 in the OP but Job 36:32.

Why don't you share what this text means to you since it is something you have "chewed your cud"(pondered) on it for awhile. For me, the Lord haven't brought me to this text in the past....so I have not chewed on it....so I really have nothing to say about it.

However I have "chewed" (pondered) on the book of Job several times and that's why I have responded to that text with my impression.

Now, we haven't really got down in identifying what the clouds meant or what they are and why God brought them in our life to hide the "illumination" in Job 36:32. Personally, I would like to finish with Job 36:32. And I'm wondering if Job 36:32 is related to Ecc 11:3-4? Maybe it is in some distance way... maybe it is directly related... maybe it is not. I don't know. I await for your impression of Ecc 11:3-4; but I ask that we do not loose track of Job 36:32.

In a public setting like this forum, I think it is not the place to share very personal stuff. There's ways to discuss without having to go there. We all should know that we all have our challenges and it's not a rose garden for anyone.

I felt my question to you and Nadi brought you both to reveal the personal stuff...when I was only seeking that we expressed our view if we agreed with dedication position or not. So I felt responsible that my question brought you to that. That's why I felt impressed to meet you both in your sufferings. But I really think it's not the place. So please forgive me for that.

There's a time to share personal stuff to the whole body ... especially when the Lord has opened up our understanding about them and He has given us a special "revelation". Then these "revelation" actually belong to the body and they should be informed what part of His Word the Lord has brought into your life and made you a "living word". I believe the Lord gives each one of us one of His Word that we come to live it and thus know it.

But if we are still in doubt...and having massive clouds still covering the "illumination".... I think it's wiser to wait upon the Lord for His personal revelation to us.

I do share my personal struggles with only my very close few friends in the Church. I think it can be ok because we are in close communications for years and we know each others past and struggles and beliefs. And you know about girls how they work things up by talking. It's not always a good thing; but it can help along the time we are in obscurity. Men should also have a few very close friends that they can openly share and troubleshoot their understanding with them. I know that's not the case with many, like it is with woman.

But above having some close friends to open up to; I have always benefited the most from opening scriptures to find answers there. That's something we all can do together on this forum.

Yes, we agree thus far.... but you haven't answered my reply to you stating a summary of all that your shared (above is only part) and asking for clarification if this is your position. Here an shorten re-posted of the two questions to you for your convenience.

Jesus never fails. You can put your full and complete trust in Him no matter what happens in this life on a planet where sin ruins and life is uncertain.

And if you think that is only my opinion and not biblical then I feel very sorry for you for you need a lot of prayers. I don't know how people can face all that life throws at them without that assurance.

I didn't reply to Elle's questions because they didn't really address what I was saying. They seemed totally off topic to me.

First there's that summary statement that I never wrote???

What do you mean by "Jesus gives us all we need"?
All we need for what?
This is a thread about trials in life is it not?

To succeed?
To succeed in what?

If we fail?
If we fail in what?

We've all failed -- life is hopeless without Christ's saving power. He's the one Who can lift us up, if we are willing to respond to His lifting power and love.



The second question -- "the faith of Jesus"

As we go through trials (clouds) they can have two different outcomes, we can become bitter and loose sight of our Savior, or we can turn to Him, and when we do, yes, it definitely builds our faith. The peace He can give even when our hearts are breaking, is indescribable and real, soothing the very soul. We learn to trust in Him rather than in our own ability to take care of everything.

And yes, that is our choice. He is there drawing us to Him, His Holy Spirit is there calling for us to be willing to place our trust in Him, for His ways are not our ways.
We see the temporal and feel all anxious and concerned when the temporal plans are all upended and smashed, but even if we don't understand and it makes no sense to us, He has better plans for us, maybe something better for this life, but even if not, even if we die, we can rest assured His plans are definitely to fit us for eternal life. If we are willing to fully trust and follow Him.

Elle's last question -- are you implying if we don't make it the failure is all ours we don't have the "faith of Jesus"?

Again, what do you mean "don't make it"
Don't make what?

Don't make a life without trouble and disasters?

No -- if we experience disasters and heart wrenching events it's not due to a lack of faith.
We live in world where sin is demonstrating its reality -- and that reality is trouble, disaster and awful things.

However, by your questions, it seems you are trying to derail this thread and turn it into an "everyone will be saved" thread -- you already know I do not believe in that.

Jesus does not FAIL if people choose to reject His offer of salvation. And yes, He has provided everything for our salvation. If we reject Him, we've rejected salvation.

But by presenting your false doctrine that everyone will eventually be saved, you may cause a lot of people to fail of obtaining eternal life by thinking they can push Christ out of their lives now and indulge in the destructive pleasures of sin, for they think they will be saved anyway.
If we reject Him, we've rejected salvation.

Interesting --
Other versions have a totally different translation of that verse and the whole passage takes on a completely different meaning.

First lets look at the words:
kaph = hand, palm of hand, sole (of foot)
kacah = to cover
'owr = light(s)
tsavah = command or charge
paga' = fall, meet, reach


It seems the KJV added a lot of it's own words and thoughts???

A literal reading would be
His hands cover the light he commands to fall and reach ...

Now let's look at other translations:

ESV

32 He covers his hands with the lightning and commands it to strike the mark.

NKJV
32
He covers His hands with lightning,And commands it to strike.

HCSB
He covers His hands with lightning and commands it to hit its mark.

RSV
He covers his hands with the lightning, and commands it to strike the mark.

YLT
By two palms He hath covered the light, And layeth a charge over it in meeting,

Do the above fit the original better???


The Context:


ESV
JOB
26 Behold, God is great, and we know him not;
the number of his years is unsearchable.

27 For he draws up the drops of water;
they distill his mist in rain,

28 which the skies pour down
and drop on mankind abundantly.

29 Can anyone understand the spreading of the clouds,
the thunderings of his pavilion?

30 Behold, he scatters his lightning about him
and covers the roots of the sea.

31 For by these he judges peoples;
he gives food in abundance.

32 He covers his hands with the lightning
and commands it to strike the mark.

33 Its crashing declares his presence;
the cattle also declare that he rises.

1 “At this also my heart trembles
and leaps out of its place.

2 Keep listening to the thunder of his voice
and the rumbling that comes from his mouth.
3 Under the whole heaven he lets it go,
and his lightning to the corners of the earth.

4 After it his voice roars;
he thunders with his majestic voice,
and he does not restrain the lightnings when his voice is heard.

5 God thunders wondrously with his voice;
he does great things that we cannot comprehend.

**************


Job 36:26-33
New King James Version (NKJV)

26
“Behold, God is great, and we do not know Him;
Nor can the number of His years be discovered.

27
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,

28
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.

29
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?

30
Look, He scatters His light upon it,
And covers the depths of the sea.

31
For by these He judges the peoples;
He gives food in abundance.

32
He covers His hands with lightning,
And commands it to strike.

33
His thunder declares it,
The cattle also, concerning the rising storm.

In most of dedication Post#183844, she was evading to answer the questions like most others were doing in the exception of Alchemy. I do admire Alchemy's honesty and not being afraid to answer those hard questions. I'm sorry to put you all in that hard spot, but it was necessary so you would see by under which of the 2 covenants you actually believe and live by.

However, dedication did answer the hard question in the last 3 paragraphs of her post. I will reply to these 3 last paragraphs so hopefully I can make my point clear & briefly enough.


I'm not trying to derail the thread...but addressing the underlying problem why while the clouds cover the "light"(or His presence or His glory) ... why we feel God has left us.

Basically, it's because we do not have the assurance of salvation. Nor do we understand correctly the process of salvation that is illustrated in 3 steps & explained in the 3 feasts:Passover(justification), Pentecost(sanctification), & Tabernacle(glorification).

That's a major problem for any Christians when most of our life we will have to deal with some clouds that is always there covering His presence.


Thank you for your admission dedication...there it is. I'm not trying to condescend dedication or anyone else for having this belief ... because this is a typical belief when we (or a young church like the Israelites were when they got out of Egypt) are young in the faith. Often, this is also the only teachings we get in all denominations including SDAs. In our SDA Church we still debate the meaning of "righteousness by faith" because the very first step(of the 3) is still not understood.

So putting this in Paul's word....we have been taught this "other gospel" that Paul tried to teach us to keep away from and to enter into the New Covenant (the only gospel message) while progressing into the 2nd step of our spiritual growth as the Church at Pentecost has moved into in the upper room.

But shortly after Pentecost, the Church started to regress back into that old "other gospel" belief which is based on the Old covenant oath that depends on YOU to keep your part of the oath (Ex 19:8 "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do."). Since that "other gospel" depend on Man to continue "choosing" salvation and when things goes very wrong or we see that we fell into sin again...well we reason that it is our fault for we didn't "accept" all that Jesus provided for our salvation. So you somehow didn't "choose life".... and it becomes your failure and not Jesus.

This is not the same gospel that is based on the New Covenant where God alone makes the oath that He will make us His people(Deut 29:10-13) by writing His laws in our hearts(Jer 31:34). If His laws are written in our heart....then His laws will become natural for us to keep. Then no more coercement is needed to keep us into obedience any more.

But when these laws still exist outside of our heart [whether written on tablets of stones or on paper in our Bible] ....then obeying these laws are un-natural to us and we will always fail in some level to hit that perfect target (katah == missing, sin).

Let's examine a little closer what Deut. 29:12, 13 says regarding the New covenant oath God is making with us. It says that all of these people listed in the first part of v.12...has entered this New covenant on account of God’s oath and not on account of their own oath. Verse 12 say they entered “into His oath, which the Lord your God is making with you.” Verse 13 says God Himself made this oath in order to fulfill His promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

So we further read in Gen 15:12 that God put Abraham into a “deep sleep” and then made the covenant by Himself. This is basically an unconditional covenant that God is making with us.

If it would be possible to break this covenant; then it would require God :
a) to violate His own words, or
b)to being incapable of keeping His oath.

But if God does either a) or b), that would mean He has failed. But all of us agreed that God will not fail; thus in essence He won't fail in keeping his unconditional oath either.

So the oath God made in Deut 29:12, 13 is a restatement of that “promise” that God gave earlier to Abraham. This New Covenant oath is yet to be fulfilled(via the illustration of the 3 Feasts) as it is a long-term promise until He succeeds to subdue all things under Jesus feet.

This New Covenant(Gen 15, Deut 29, Jer 31, and etc...) is conditional on God's ability to fulfill His promise to us. Whereas the Exodus 19:5-8 covenant is conditional on the people's ability to keep their promise to God.

This distinction between the two covenants are important for us to understand. Jeremiah 31 makes an association between the two covenant. First in verse 32 it says the Israelites were not capable of keeping that covenant that required the people to keep their words-vow :"not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke…". So another covenant was required to bring salvation to men where God would do on our behalf. So we read in verse, 33" “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”

In another words, God vowed to take responsibility to make it happen. He did so, first by His death and resurrection, then second by sending the Holy Spirit so to start the process of writing His laws on our hearts as illustrated at Pentecost.


hmmm. Are you saying it is because you want to "obtain eternal life" that is the reason you have "chosen" to follow Jesus and have refrain from "the pleasures of sin"??? So if there's no literal Hell fire after the Millennium and your salvation is guaranteed... well you wouldn't of followed Him and you would of continued in "the pleasures of sin"?

Well if you still live under the Old covenant...yea...you still thinks it depends on you to keep your part of the oath. But scriptures shows us clearly that the Israelites failed to keep their part. Why do you think you can still succeed or anyone else?

But it is not the condition expressed by God when He made the [New-unconditional-one way] covenant to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and to all of us.

Yes -- you are trying to derail the subject into your understanding that everyone will eventually be converted.


What you fail to understand is that our conversion is not "in our strength" but by His Holy Spirit, for all who willing submit to Christ and His Holy Spirit in this life. Thus it is not "old covenant". There are many passages that stress the importance that we come to Him and that it is urgent that we respond.
There is no need for "righteousness by faith" in your doctrine, if you think everyone will eventually be saved. Just a "nothing really matters", just relax and be assured salvation is a given.

Your doctrine is not "righteousness by faith", it is not the third angel's message and definitely NOT Adventist. To teach that everyone is saved, fits into the spiritualistic doctrine promoted by the Christianized new age --

That Christianized "new age" branch of thought by the way now say their teachings must be taught with a lot of Bible quoting, to undermine the very foundations of Christianity. Clever -- and satanic. (And for those who want confirmation from sources urging this be done, I can give that as well, it is a shocking exposure of what is going on right from their writings)

I urge you, and everyone else to come out of the REAL Babylon (which is so called Christianity united with spiritualism) a spiritualistic undermining of true Christianity, for there is no salvation in that path.

What it is, is pure spiritualism --
And deadly poison.

I fear for everyone who embraces the poison which you seem to have accepted, for the end result is presumption and eternal lose.
While God longs to save everyone and salvation is offered to everyone, not everyone will be saved.

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour: Resist him, be stedfast in the faith,








Conversion is NOT legalism, nor is it "old covenant".
I see far more "old covenant" in your posts.
Righteousness by faith is not "old covenant".
It is by God's Holy Spirit calling and drawing us to Christ, and working to transform us.
But yes, the choice is ours to respond and follow Christ and yield to His leading, or reject and silence the voice of the Holy Spirit and our Savior Who has given His life to save us from sin. Those who reject him will be lost.


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.



To reject Christ is to reject salvation.
To think one can have salvation anyway
is pure spiritualism --
And deadly poison.

I fear for everyone who embraces your false doctrine that everyone will be saved it matters not what they believe or how they live, for the end result is presumption and eternal loose.

Is it necessary to characterize someone else's theology or belief system as "spiritualism" and "poison" and "satanic?" Can one instead point out the "error" (as you see it) in their logic and present what you believe? Of course one may say that the other is wrong; that is what this forum is for. But to characterize another's post thusly is A) unchristian, B) unscholarly, C) reveals a heavy bias, D) goes against forum rules and E) does not set a tone on the form which promotes legitimate discussion.

I believe that such characterizations and "discussion" methods are one of the reasons why the serious Bible scholars mentioned in my other thread are no longer participating here.

And, on a personal note, I would rather associate and discuss things with Elle and HisChild, DESPITE THE FACT I THINK THEIR THEOLOGY IS WAY OFF, who treat others as Christians, than with others, such as but not limited to, dedication and ProdigalOne who rip a new ******* on anyone who disagrees with them.

I think the answer to whether or not God fails us is directly related to what we can legitimately expect from God.

So the question is "What has GOD SAID we can expect from Him?"
Simple as that.

Answer THAT question and we can proceed to determine if He has failed us or not.

We only have a short life here on this planet, and yes, as I quoted from scripture:
"your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" 1 Peter 5:8

It's not just a "characterization" it is a real battle.



How can we know something is spiritualism and satanic?
When it comes from spiritualistic sources --

Though Elle claims it as "her beliefs" it no more originated with her than evolution is original to the local science teacher.

I fear for Elle --
Now that we know she is battling a disease that has already claimed three of my own relatives, I realize she is fighting for her very life here on earth. I pray she will yet have many good years, but there is also a chance she may not.

Eternity hangs on her decisions that she makes, eternity is not something to take lightly. This life is NOTHING compared to eternity.



Are we simply to put out a "feel good" message?
Saying all roads lead to salvation, when they do NOT.

Rather tell them that yes, Jesus provided everything for our salvation. Trust in Him!
Cling to Him, abide in Him, let Him lift all the burden of sin from you, for He has already paid the wages they exact. Place all your cares upon Him for He cares for you, and will carry you through no matter what this earthly life may throw at you. Follow Him in humble, loving obedience.



Done that -- many posts have already discussed the issue. Many Bible texts presented.
But when language is changed and words no longer mean what words actually mean --- When clear Bible passages are allegorized into mystical interpretations--- It comes to a point where there is no more possibility for reasoning.

And yes, I've studied enough to know where these things are coming from. And yes, it is from sources that are not from God.
Satan is real and working with intense fury now, as time is coming to an end, to mislead, and destroy people.

Are we to simply sit back and not warn people.
Does no one care?


The reason many have left -- is that this is not a place where Adventists can really discuss the Bible and their beliefs anymore. It has become a place where Adventist beliefs tend to be attacked and/or "reconsidered" in attempted change. More often than not those sharing Adventist truths are portrayed as simple minded, no matter how much Biblical or other material one shares it is pushed aside as so much "unscholarly" trivial.


Many have left because they feel it is useless to share precious truths here and that God can use them to share the last message more effectively in other places.



And yes, I have found that those whose "theology is way off" are usually treated better than those who try to give a reason for their Adventist beliefs. I think it's because those who come here to change Adventist doctrines are not threatened by them, after all Elle and HC are also trying to change Adventist belief so they are no threat, its those of us who deeply believe, who the change agents see as a huge threat.

It would be far more profitable to
"count your blessings" and see what God has done,
rather than look at the problems in this life and think God has failed us.

It is a "state of mind" really.

Prosperity preachers are preaching a false doctrine. Don't listen to them for, unless you are financially prospering, you soon start to think God failed. But it is not the truth.

For a brief spell, as everyone in this thread was listing their "misfortunes", I started mentally listing mine --
Wow -- in no time I was in despondency thinking of all that I had lost over the years.

Then the Holy Spirit nudged me -- "what about the blessings"?
Count your blessings.

Psalms 05:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people.
105:2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.
105:3 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.
105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.

"The Lord is good!" He is very good!




Psalms 27:14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

Psalms 28:7 The LORD is my strength and my shield; my heart trusted in him, and I am helped: therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him.

Psalms 30:11 Thou hast turned for me my mourning into dancing: thou hast put off my sackcloth, and girded me with gladness;
30:12 To the end that glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.


John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Will we let the tribulation separate us from God?
If this world's trouble separates us from God, it is not God that has left us, it is we that have left God.


Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

That is not necessarily insensitive, hurtful people! People should warn of such dangers out of love. It may sound hurtful and insensitive to the hearer, but, it is not.

So then, if you pray and ask and wait for something and it doesn't come as you expect; Is that God failing you? If God fails us; Can we trust Him to save us?

I believe these are fair questions in a thread such as this.

Amen dedication.

I will admit I have trouble understanding God at times. I still marvel at Abraham going to sacrifice Isaac when he knew for sure Isaac was the child of promise and that God forbids sacrificing of children. (Deut. 12:29-21 and Jer. 7:30-32) I would say human sacrifices all together.

Yet, Abraham took Isaac to sacrifice him at the mountain. Abraham still knew somehow it was God even though the command contradicted God's word! I still don't get it.

But, God didn't fail Abraham and He will not fail us. Amen!?!

This idea of "God failing us" is very pernicious. It is expressed in many ways too. God has failed to protect the Bible as it is no longer trustworthy. God failed with the Spirit of Prophecy writings as they are a tool of the devil. God fails us when we tell Him what we want and He doesn't give it to us. We have spiritual struggles so that is evidence of God's failure. God failed us because Biblical authors such as Paul and James wrote "wrongheaded" stuff. James was a "legalist" leading people away from faith in God.

All these things are is an expression of lack of faith in God. An infinitely wise God is to give us everything we ask for because what we want can't possibly be bad for us? We wander away from God due to lack of submission to Him, trust in His love and watch care over us, and because we do not spend the necessary time and effort working on our relationship with Him and that is God's fault? Our emotional ups and downs that come from living in a world of sin are God failing us?

I have been through hell-on-earth during my life time, but is that God's fault? Is He the one who made all my choices? Is He the one that inspired my family to reject me, and constantly emotionally abuse me during my formative years and even afterwards? Is He the one who inspired me to abuse drugs for years? God had nothing to do with all of that. He, in fact, has intervened in positive ways many times and in many ways throughout my lifetime. He kept me alive several times when I should have been severely injured or killed. He directly intervened when the devil came after me to claim me as his own.

For finite, mortal, immensely flawed beings to claim it is the fault of the infinitely intelligent, all fore-knowing, God of love when bad things happen in our lives is to make the same accusations that the devil has made against God ever since his rebellion started. What is that accusation? God didn't give me what I wanted so He is unfair and selfish.

What more could God have given us than His Son? I don't see how it is possible for Him to give us anything more valuable and more greatly needed than that. That we can look at that gift and then say God fails us is to me incomprehensible.

I understand the desire to blame God. Adam blamed God when he said "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me". But, the failure was all Adam's and it is the same with us in this life.

Dedication is right in saying that our experiences in this life now prepare us for the much harder experiences in the future. The Faith of Jesus is what the Bible calls that. And of course, it is the Holy Spirit that inspires us and leads us to the truth we need for these last days.

I 100% agree that Adam fell and he bare some level of responsibility in his fall. The same with the Israelites when they came out of Egypt....they bore some level of responsibility in their failure and they all died(except 2) in the dessert and did not enter the promise land.

Regardless, the New Covenant oath that God ALONE made is very Biblical and still stand. With the New Covenant Oath that God made, the responsibility to succeed no longer rest on our shoulder because the new covenant is a ONE WAY UNCONDITIONAL Covenant that God alone has made.

So if someone says that if we fail in our life time we will loose our salvation because we didn't hold our oath of the bargain.... that type of mindset or teachings comes from the OLD Covenant. It is very obvious that these people are teaching the "other gospel" by which history shows that no man can keep their part of their oath.

I find it very interesting that I've presented a very simple Biblical concept of the New Covenant that we all should know....and for some reason...that the New Covenant enters in the category of being an evil & false doctrine??? Beats me? When individuals come to the point of rejecting the most fundamental stone of our Salvation that God has laid for us in scriptures via His death that made Jesus the mediator of the New covenant(not the Old covenant), then for me there's no door for further discussion. I will leave you to continue your path with your Old Testament oath. All the best to you...I do hope you can do better than the Israelites.

Elle,

So in your view God controls all the choices we make? He causes us to not spend time with Him in study on prayer? He causes us to doubt Him? The reason I ask these questions is because they are implied by your belief.

It seems to me that you are very much blaming God for sin for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23 And since God is responsible, in your view, for our lapses of faith He is then the author of sin and temptation.

gary, elle resolves our lack of free will by believing that God will save everyone. Her favorite website is steeped in universalism. Satan is the author of sin and the idea of universalism. The New Covenant is indeed based on the promises of God only, but ignores the fact that God's love can be rejected. Yes, God wills all to be saved, that does not mean all will be saved. Universalism ultimately claims all men are righteous, no matter what they do for good will at last come out of evil.

Interesting. Then, to be logically consistent, she cannot say Adam bore any responsibility for his fall. There is also no need of a Savior since God is responsible for Adam's and our sins. We were really only obeying Him all the time.

Yes, we can count on it -- God will not fail!

The age old question of course has been -- "if God is a God of love why is there so much suffering in the world"? It's an inescapable question that plagues people.

We do have the answer in inspired writings --
To understand we need to understand what the great controversy is all about.

1. Free choice.
God seeks those who worship Him in Spirit and in truth.
John 4:23 " the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

God could have created beings who were incapable of rebelling against Him. He also could have stopped sin in it's beginnings by forceful removable.

However, in order to choose, a created being has to know about both sides. When sin first entered, it didn't sound all that bad, in fact it was made to sound like something better than what God had to offer. (Which is still Satan's big deceptive claim).

So sin is allowed to demonstrate it's results. Sin doesn't just bring ruin and heartache to the ones in open defiance of God's law, it also brings ruin, disease, poverty and death to people we would describe as "innocent". The whole creation is groaning under the results of sin. The pain, mental, physical and emotional damage, the ruin of society, health, and moral values is the "norm" while the good things are blessings in life come from God to help us cope with the "norm".



Often we can't understand "why", but then when we look at what sin is doing in the world, we can ask "why not me?" compared to what others have endured, we still have it very good. How many of God's followers suffered severely in this world, loosing everything, yet held on to their faith because of their hope and faith in the promise---
John 16:44 " in me ye may have peace. In the world you shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Isaiah 41:10 "Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness."

As someone else wrote -- We know the end of the story. We may be in a dark tunnel but we have that glorious hope, and those are the promises we place our faith in.

Satan's plan is to wrest us away from our hope, and plunge us into despair and hopelessness -- he works hard to do this. But keep looking up -- never give up.



2. Abraham

An object lesson in faith --

The false religion in Abraham's day taught offering one's child to the "gods" would reverse bad luck. In 2 Chronicles 28 we read that even in Israel, child sacrifice to the "gods" was being practiced.

But is that what God wants?
No -- the story of Abraham shows we do NOT need to sacrifice our children to gain favor with the "gods".
For God Himself provided Himself as the lamb.
In our day, we tend to assume that Abraham KNEW child sacrifice was not God's way, but remember Abraham came from Ur of Chaldea where this practice was common, He lived among the Canaanites who also practiced it.

God showed Abraham the truth of the gospel --
-- Abraham was willing to give up everything dear to him in order to have God's favor, -- that is good, that is faith.

-- but God shows him he does NOT need to sacrifice his son in order to gain favor with God, a much better offering has been provided for our sins.

Isaac asked "My father, . . . where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" Abraham answered, "My son, God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering" Genesis 22:7, 8, not then realizing the prophetic reality of his words.

God did provide a ram, caught in the bushes for the sacrifice. That ram was a substitute representing the "Lamb of God"
And in the ram divinely provided in the place of Isaac, Abraham saw a symbol of Him who was to die for the sins of men.

We too can gain courage from this --
Can we pray over a child or a loved one stricken with disease, "not my will but Thine be done". "Lord I want them to be healed, but you know the end from the beginning, no matter what the out come, I place them in Your hands. I know you shed your blood that they might be saved, I trust in you to do what is best for their eternal welbeing."

It is not wrong for Christians to have pain-filled thinking,or to wonder where God is. If you do not have this happening thats ok too, but its not OK to disparage people going through a rough time,and experiencing this kind of anxiety. Jesus Himself cried from the cross:"Why hast Thou forsaken me?" It is incumbent upon all Christians to have the same types of experience as Jesus. "...Those who are crushed in spirit; God saves." (Psalms 34:19)

Our movement from broken-hearted to whole-hearted, is the passionate desire of Christ. "I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness." (Ezekiel 34:12) "When The Clouds Go By" is a very fitting name for this topic.

It is one thing to have pain in your life because of bad things happening to you. It is quite another to say God is failing you because bad things happen to you. That is quite an accusation against God. It says you believe He is the source of your pain. That is most emphatically not true.

God will not fail!
The fact, however, is that many people do believe God has let them down. I fully agree that it is emphatically not true, yet finite people living in sin wracked world often fall into the pit of despondency (as depicted in Pilgrim's Progress)and they need a helping hand.



CHRISTIAN then asks HELP (who represents the Holy Spirit) why this dangerous plot of land had not been mended so that poor travelers might go safely to the Celestial City. Help replies, “This miry slough is such a place that cannot be mended.”

In this world of sin and suffering there are times in our lives when we, too, will struggle through the swamps of despondency — but God has NOT failed, we can praise God that He has provided us a Helper for those times of need! We need to look up-- press on, seeking and trusting the power of the Holy Spirit to pull us out of those depressingly dangerous swamps, and set our feet back upon the Rock of our salvation.

Thus yes, it is imperative that we KNOW God will not fail, else we, like PLIABLE in the story, will turn back to the City of Destruction.

Isn't it amazing how good a book Pilgrim's Progress is? I have always loved that book because it is so good at showing the reality of life in a sinful world. Bunyan really understood spiritual realities.

That is a very good book It was one of the first books I bought after I was baptized.

Maybe it is not so much an "accusation against God," as much as it is just saying how we feel sometimes when the going gets really tough. Even Jesus did such a thing:

Maybe it is not so much an "accusation against God," as much as it is just saying how we feel sometimes when the going gets really tough. Even Jesus did such a thing:

Indeed, Jesus did say that. But under what circumstances? He had always known the presence of His Father, and Ellen White tells us that the Father had withdrawn His presence so that Jesus could no longer perceive it. So Jesus was responding to what was really happening. He response was not a lack of faith, or in other words, distrust He had of His Father.

I've been at the point that I didn't think God was there for me. So I know what it is like, but just because I accused God of letting me down doesn't make it the right thing to do. It was, in fact, a statement of my unbelief at the time....

Read Paul. He makes this point again and again about the COI. And every time they didn't believe God was there for them Paul calls it unbelief. Every time. Moses did the same thing. At the end of the book of Deuteronomy he tells the COI that they are a rebellious people who do not have faith in God. He was right on the money too.

Gary, I believe that God gives us some choices like a Parent does with their own children. Choices is part in any education program including our Heavenly Father's [spiritual] education program.

God is our heavenly father that is on a mission to teach us His laws and discipline us also when we failed our lessons. But these little "choices" at man's levels are not above God's Sovereignty or God's plan.

If you want to further discuss about "choices"...then open another discussion as this is way off topic.

For this discussion at hand.... my simple point was that there's two Covenant in scriptures.

1. Old Covenant : based on Man's ability to keep his promise
2. New Covenant : based on God's ability to keep His promise

Which covenant do you believe the world are under? I believe it is the New Covenant.

Which covenant do you personally live by? I'll let you answer for yourself; but for myself....the New Covenant.

If someone lives under the Old Covenant....of course they will have plenty of doubt when the clouds passes by. That's my simple point.

??? what does that has to do with this discussion or my point about us being under the New Covenant? Isn't the New Covenant Biblical? Did I mis-represent the New Covenant presented in scripture? That's how you should base your objections. Not on if I eat[or not] eggs, or if I believe[or not] in Woman ordination, or whatever else that you can find about me that is totally OFF-TOPIC.

BTW....APL...you don't know what you are speaking about.

We SDAs are WAY closer in beliefs & doctrines with the RCC beliefs & doctrines; than I, with my "restitution of all things" beliefs & doctrines to those of the Universalism beliefs & doctrines. You probably don't know the difference.

Stick to the discussion at hand APL. If you want to talk about the "restitution on all things" (Act 3:21 and also found in the law and other scriptures) then open another discussion. If you want to talk about "universalism" well probably you should wait to find someone else that believes in it.

I do agree with Gary's post here. I don't believe Jesus was with doubt or with lack of faith when he cried " My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus was quoting the whole Psalm 22 and the first verse is usually the title of the Psalm. Anyway, there's much more to be said there but I don't have time right now.

If you want to discuss the covenants, please start a new thread, yes -- stick to the discussion at hand.

The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivers them. Psalm 34:7

Try to picture the scene these words are describing!

"If the curtain could be rolled back, and each one could discern the constant activities of the heavenly family to preserve the inhabitants of the earth from Satan's seductive wiles, lest in their careless attitude they should be led astray through satanic strategy, they would lose a large degree of their self-confidence and self-assurance. They would see that the armies of heaven are in continual warfare with satanic agencies, to obtain victories in behalf of those who do not sense their danger, and who are passing on in unconscious indifference. {HP 98.2}


"Angels are belting the world, refusing Satan his claims to supremacy, made because of the vast multitude of his adherents. We hear not the voices, we see not with the natural sight the work of these angels, but their hands are linked about the world, and with sleepless vigilance they are keeping the armies of Satan at bay till the sealing of God's people shall be accomplished. {HP 98.3



Psalm 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us.

And: We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. {GC 36.1}

What I said above is where I agreed with Gary mainly because Rom 14:23 "for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.. We know that Jesus was NOT a sinner...thus His faith was never lacking. So we must not be understanding correctly when Jesus was quoting from memory Ps 22 from the beginning to the end.

There were other things in Gary's post where I disagree and there were some of The Wanderer's post where I agree. I did go thru the text indicating where [in Green where I agree] and [#Number. in Orange where I don't]. The #Number is a reference number for when I comment further below.



Here is why I don't agree with the following references marked above :

#1.

Yes we are to have the same experience as Jesus, but I think you are mis-reading what Jesus meant when He was quoting Ps 22. Jesus was filled with prophesy at that time. Quoting Ps 22, despite it was about David experience when King Saul was chasing him for 12 years, the events listed in Ps 22 was happening to Jesus when He was on the cross. For those witnessing Jesus death on the cross....it appeared to all that God had forsaking Jesus. But Jesus knew all along the Father's plan and was in agreement with it. He knew He was to die. He went along with the plan as a sheep brought to the slaughter house without any fight.

The same for David when King Saul was trying to kill him for so long and chased David out of the land. Despite David was anointed and heard the prophetic words that he will be king...the events of Saul chasing him for 12 years and the other incidences didn't appear that God's words would be fulfilled. To everyone, it appeared on the surface that God had forsaking David. But God never forsook David or Jesus; however God never promise them a rose garden either.

When things seem to go wrong, it is natural for men to assume that God has forsaken them, or that they have taken a wrong path somewhere and they have forsaken God. In this, God often hides Himself to test the faith of the people, so to show them their heart's if they will believe His promise never to leave or forsake us. I don't believe that Jesus ever failed this test and ever believed once that God forsook Him before the cross or on the cross. If he did fail then he wouldn't been qualified to be the 2nd Adam that succeeded in everything where the 1st Adam failed.

#2.

I do not agree that God has ever withdrawn His presence from anyone including sinners. I don't see that supported in scriptures. In scriptures we see that God's presence is veil (there's 3 veils in the temple) to protect the youngs in the faith. Moses had to veil his own face when he saw God's glory and radiated from the experience. Moses put on the veil, not to protect himself, but the people who couldn't handle it.

Just because for sinners, when the "clouds comes" (which in essence is a veil that covers God's presence or glory) perceived this as God presence is removed from them.... this doesn't mean it is so. Often the point of view of sinners is different from God's point of view. That's why we need to go to scriptures to read about the coverings-- the veils and it's purposes.

#3.

Let us expand a little about accusing God when things doesn't happened as we expected versus understanding that this event that appeared to all as God has forsaken me...is really part of God's plan. So Jesus could of said at the cross to everyone.... this was the Father's plan all along. I think that what He did when quoting Ps 22. Versus someone, like all of us, that often have no clue why these clouds has comes in. So one person "accusation" comes from faith with understanding and with agreement to God's plan while the other(all of us) doesn't understand God's plan and our accusation is nothing more than an objection(a disagreement) to what God is doing with these clouds.

So when these clouds comes... the tribulation often pushes us to seek to understand why these clouds are there. Some clouds could be there because we're thinking we are in His will when in actuality we are not. Often, we are in deception (I don't believe that was ever the case with Jesus), but God knows that our deception needs to be corrected.

We find this principle in the laws of tribulation. Lev 26 "And if ye shall despise my statutes...my judgments...my commandments...that ye break my covenant: 16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you...

One reason God brings clouds in our life is in order to shake us out of our deception and to bring us to a deeper understanding of His plan, His laws (== His character) so we can mature into the full statue and image of Christ. I don't believe Jesus ever was out of God's will or in deception... thus I don't believe He ever had these type of clouds covering God's presence or glory like we do.

However I do believe Jesus experienced going thru the "clouds" (symbolized in the 3 veils of the temple) as an overcomer, full of faith at every level, with its understanding, and was in perfect agreements with the Father at every step. That's what makes Jesus an overcomer.

#4.

Well, the reason why the COI had unbelief is stated very clearly in Deut 29:4 "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day".

The Lord has to open our eyes or our ears for us to see and have faith. So the COI couldn't have faith and was in rebellion because it wasn't time or in God's plan yet for God to open their eyes and ears. The COI were a Passover level of faith type of Church. They were babes (read Gal 4). It is only at the fulfillment of Pentecost in Acts, that the Church(not all but a remnant) finally got some ears to hear and eyes to see. And Pentecost was still not "it" or the end of the road. The Church still has to move into the next level of faith that is yet to be manifested.

As we(corporately as a Church and/or individually) move thru the 3 chambers of the temple that represents the 3 levels of faith (Passover=babes needs to be fed, Pentecost=adolescent learning His laws via Holy Spirit, & Tabernacle=a Man that has been trained and is in full agreement and who enter into his calling and only do what he sees the Father doing and only say what he hears the Father saying) as we grow in Christ. At each level as we pierced thru the veils (the clouds of experiences that God brings into our lives), God's purpose with those clouds is to bring us to the next level of faith so to come closer in seeing & knowing Him(& His plan) and to bring us into full agreement as these veils are ripped thru.

Our level of agreements will be made manifest as He fulfills His vows one step at a time, one law at a time, one clouds at a time, to write His laws into our hearts as He vowed He would do in the New Covenant. And I do believe He will succeed to fulfill His New Covenant vow and finish the work He started in us.

I like this dedication, thank you for posting it. I can see this topic I have started has indeed generated some strong opinions on several different fronts. I fear that in some ways I have given some here, false impressions of exactly what I believe. When I posted the op it was with the intention of emulating what many people do in fact go through in their Christian experience and pilgrimmage on this earth. I tried to illustrate that Jesus did go through the same kinds of experiences, and we can all draw encouragement from the fact that Jesus understands.